Magic System

[hammersickle59]

Hi guys, its been a long time since I've been on the forums. I need help/advice on how to build a certain magic system.

The crux of the problem is this. Mages will be able to learn "spells" (that are predefined and written by me) in the game for no cost. Just study time. However, before they learn the spell they need to have enough points in the associated "sphere of magic". So they have to pay for that. How would you best represent that?

A variable power pool with a disadvantage that says "Can only use spells learned in game?"

What if they learn a "flight" spell that lasts one hour and then they want to cast something in the same sphere? Dont they need to have the VPP points for both? or is there a way around that? (besides just forcing them to dump more points into VPP)

The player will eventually be dealing with having a hundred different spells. Most arent in effect at the same time but some might be. What power framwork best handles this?

Are there other disadvantages that apply to this idea that i'm forgetting?

Forgive my foggyness, its been years since I played.

Dean

[AmadanNaBriona]

A VPP based system is probably your best bet, yeah, but there are other ways, as well as ways to file off the system bits in order to enhance the feel.

I've got to scoot to work, but just to help get the old design juices flowing, check out Killer Shrike's Magic System Design Considerations (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.aspx)

[ghost-angel]

Here's one way:

The "Sphere Of Magic" is a Perk, perhaps at 2pts per "level" (which you can base either on Active Points or completely arbitrarily);
For example with 6pts in Elemental Fire Magic they can learn any level 3 or lower Elemental Fire spell.

The spells themselves you could just charge a flat rate for and ignore the complications of Frameworks. Maybe 1pt/level - so a 1st Level Spell costs 1pt, a 10th Level spell costs 10 Points (and requires 20 Points in the associated Sphere Perk).

you can even mix/match with a 3rd Level Elemental Fire/5th level Divination and require the appropriate points in 2 Perks (or one of the two if it's easier for one master to learn it than another).

This removes the Pool Points issue completely, especially if you're using a VPP and want them to be able to switch spells easily/quickly without penalty (Cosmic).

[note: points cited are completely arbitrary].

Basically, there's no reason in a Fantasy Campaign to treat Magic like Powers in a Superheroic Campaign, more like specialized Equipment.

[Thia Halmades]

Oh. You mean an InVariable Power Pool, which I use and built (in part) from designs started by Killer Shrike, although mine has since taken a decidedly left turn at Albuquerque. But yeah. I use a variant on the d20 system, so mine looks not-unlike-this:

VPP, Requires Book to Change Slots, Slots Can Only be Changed Between Scenes, Only Known Spells (-1/2; this is the version I use, and they can only know spells they scribe or research, and only the things that appear in game can be... you get the idea. Same mechanic, more elegant), each spell must take one charge (-1; I use a Vancian system, hence, no memorization? No casty; once casty casty? No casty again).

And so on. Requires 8 hours rest, etc. NOW. I also use the thingamabobbers from d20 -- the whatchamacallits. Things that say what your realm of magic is; Abjuration, Conjuration... SCHOOL. School of magic. THAT. So you can purchase Skill Levels in a given school, or specialize in one and bar yourself in another (Physical Limitation: School of Magic, All the Time, Impairment varies on the School).

Does that help? I'm rambling again aren't I? I don't feel good... *thud*

[prestidigitator]

It sounds to ME kind of like you might want a VPP for each "school" of magic that allows a fast re-allocation of points (something between a Full Turn and a Zero Phase action probably) but only to the spells that the magic user has studied. If some spells might require multiple schools, you MIGHT want to make an exception to rules of Linking/Multiple-Power-Attacks using powers from different Frameworks.

[Killer Shrike]

Check out the Vancian Systems on my site; its very similar to what you want; the only thing missing is the idea of having to know x/ spells of similar nature restriction which is easily imposed as a system restriction for no points.

Another way of driving the same idea is to tie the max AP to skill levels...something like School AP Cap = ((School Skill - 7) x 15).

Shrike Magic Systems (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/ShrikeMagicSystems.aspx)


Anyway, if you like I could make time to meet you at Game Empire off of Clairemont Mesa in San Diego and help you work out a playable magic system face to face over coffee, seeing as how we are virtually neighbors (I live up in Del Mar).

[hammersickle59]

Thanks for the help everyone. I spent some time reading most of Killer Shrikes Magic System stuff (thanks to the first poster).

I've nailed down what I wanted. :)

Dean

[AmadanNaBriona]

Thanks for the help everyone. I spent some time reading most of Killer Shrikes Magic System stuff (thanks to the first poster).

I've nailed down what I wanted. :)

Dean

You're most welcome, but dude...
seriously consider taking KS up on his offer.

He's one of the guru's, m'man.
He groks the system at machine language level.

If I was closer I'd be down there like a shot.

[hammersickle59]

Oh Crap! lol. I didn't even see that offer.

I must have been tired when I read the post. It's towards the bottom so I thought it was part of his signature.

That's definitely a good idea. I'll contact him (after I figure out how to send a member a personal message). :)

Dean

[tesuji]

well for me i typically found the multipower pool to handle "learning spells" quite well for my purposes.

The pool resevre represents a "how much magic can you maintain at once" and serves as the large initial investment cost. Limitations applied to this cost form the basis for the magic "style" since they apply everywhere.

then there is a small cost for learning each spell due to slot costs - easy to add new spells since at 1/5 to 1/10 the xp price is there.

no skill rolls or actions to change spells, just cast the new ones.

I dont like going to vpp and then needing to add/invent a new mechanic for tracking "how many spells does he know". By using mp the slot costs automatically handle the notion that "a mage with 100 spells is better than one with 5" for me.

I used the above system in several fh games and it seemed to do the trick.

the downside is - with each spell only costing slot cost, the "pressure" to add spell restrictions beyond the "style" lims applied to the base pool is almost nil. So if the Gm doesn't require a suitable "flavor" level of lims on the style, people will devise "spells" which tend o have few of the "feels like fantasy spells" lims.

I did not mind this because in my game i devised multiple magic styles all at -1 total lims and you had to choose from them AND because it actually irks me to see the written up spells with -4 to -5 in lims, many of which boil down to "this will never come up but i need to save points because i am paying full cost for spells" variety like "have to know 3 other spells" (which is an utter crock as "before i had this power i could not use it" is not a limitation on a power) so... i am fairly happy with little more than the obligatory style lims.