Would you allow the following multiform base char? [Archive]

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Zed-F

Aug 16th, '03, 06:58 PM

Here's a partial definition of a PC I was thinking of building. I don't think there's anything wrong per se with the concept and AFAIK the char is built according to the rules, but it definitely has some stop-sign potential. Most especially, besides potentially having to take game time to map out a substantial VPP, if the player is allowed unfettered access to the base form in a non-combat environment (i.e. most of the time) he can throw a wrench in any scenario in an eyeblink. I've tried to keep that pretty much reigned in with the multiform restrictions and the bit about consulting the GM before using this form; as I mention in the background, use of this form should under most circumstances be considered a plot device. The base form is Equinox's ace in the hole; it should be nearly impossible for any enemy to discover its existence or how to deal with it, but by the same token, the circumstances under which the player would actually get to use it should be rare and under GM supervision only. Still, I'm wondering what some of you might think if this char showed up at your campaign.

<TABLE BORDER=1> <TR> <TH ALIGN=CENTER COLSPAN=8> Equinox </TH> </TR>   <TR> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Val</TH> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Char</TH> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Cost</TH> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=MIDDLE COLSPAN=5 ROWSPAN=2>  </TR> <TR>  <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 10 10 10 10 30 30 30 10 2 2 3 4 20 20 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> STR DEX CON BODY INT EGO PRE COM PD ED SPD REC END STUN </TD>  <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 0 0 0 0 20 40 20 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 </TD> </TR>   <TR> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Cost</TH> <TH ALIGN=LEFT COLSPAN=6>Powers and Talents</TH> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>END</TH> </TR> <TR>  <TD ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 25     5 25 45   40     120   </TD>  <TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=6 NOWRAP> Regenerate: Healing: Regenerate 1 BODY/Turn, including limbs+resurrect, 0 END Cost (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2). Note: Incineration prevents Resurrection. LS: Immortality 20 Power Defense, Hardened (+1/4) Patternsift: Danger Sense: Passive Sense, Any Danger, General Area, Discriminatory, +3 to PER roll (18-) Evolve Form: Multiform, 8x350-pt. Forms, plus Instant Change (90 AP), Reversion (AsPow, only when at or below -10 BODY, -0), 1 Recoverable Charge (recovers in 1 min, -1 1/4) Evolve Power: 80-pt. Variable Power Pool, Any SFX (+0), 1 Turn to change powers (-0) </TD>  <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP>                         </TD> </TR>   <TR> <TH ALIGN=RIGHT>200+</TH> <TH ALIGN=LEFT COLSPAN=7>Disadvantages</TH> </TR> <TR>  <TD ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 150 </TD>  <TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=7 NOWRAP> TBD </TD> </TR>   <TR> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=8 NOWRAP> OCV:3 DCV:3 ECV:10 Phases:4, 8, 12 </TD> </TR>  <TR> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Costs </TD> <TD></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Char 90 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Powers 260 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Total 350 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Disads 150 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Base 200 </TD> <TD></TD> </TR></TABLE>

Equinox (Avatar form)
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Height: 6'
Weight: 100 kg
Hair: Jet Black, straight, shoulder-length
Eyes: No iris or pupil, swirls of colour that constantly shift
Skin/Features: Looks like a cross between Caucasian and Oriental

Appearance: Unremarkable physically other than his eyes. Equinox is dressed in a floor-length white robe and so usually looks like he just got out of the shower.

Personality: TBD

Quote: TBD

Powers/Tactics: As an Avatar of Change, Equinox has the power to evolve new abilities very quickly -- within a matter of seconds, rather than millenia. Evolving entirely new forms is also within his abilities, though this normally takes considerably longer, on the order of a few days. Having a template to work from (as in the case with the hero team whose identities he absorbed) makes this easier and quicker, but it is not required. Under most circumstances, the Lords of Change abstained from direct revelations of their power to their worshippers; in Equinox, this outlook translates into a preference to use his alternative forms to interact with the world, rather than his true form. Equinox is only a Lesser Avatar, which means that once he has changed forms, he requires a certain amount of time to realign his power matrix before he can transform again. Additionally, if Equinox's BODY is reduced to -10 while in an alternate form, then that form's template in Equinox's power matrix is destabilized, and that form "dies," at least until such time as Equinox can recreate or replace it.

A Lesser Avatar of Change doesn't normally retain all the knowledge necessary for the normal functioning of each of its forms in its memory simultaneously. Instead, each form only has access to the knowledge and memories that are pertinent to that form, while the master Avatar persona remains buried deeply in the alternate form's subconscious, observing. While Equinox has the knowledge of all of his alternate forms, they know nothing of him; each knows that they are part of a multiform being, and sometimes the identites of some of the other forms, but none know of the existence of the master form. For Equinox to impart completely new knowledge and memories to an alternate form is similar to recreating the persona, and requires a major effort taking hours or even days. However, Equinox is able to prompt his alternate forms in a limited fashion, as a sort of vague feeling of wanting to perform some particular action. For example, if Equinox feels the need to switch to his base form, for instance to evolve a new form or use one of his other abilities, he will usually implant a suggestion in his current alternate form to seek privacy. Or, if Equinox wants to switch from one alternate form to another, and there is some critical information the new form needs, Equinox may suggest his current form write a short note on the subject before Equinox triggers the change.

Equinox has one other gift, which is to read the flow of events, looking for slight perturbations in the way things unfold. When a ball bounces to the left instead of to the right, or a drop of rain lands down someone's neck instead of on their hat, most people brush these small events off as random chance or label it chaos theory in action, and never notice the ripple effect that progresses through these minor events when some more significant change takes place. Equinox is able to perceive the patterns of minor events as they occur, notice when a significant change causes a cascade of minor alterations to spread outwards, and correlate from that pattern what the nature of the significant change was -- especially if the significant change involves some threat to him or his surroundings.

Equinox in his base form is not particularily well-suited for combat, as he's physically unimpressive and he takes a significant amount of time to evolve new powers. If he does sense that danger is at hand, his preferred response is to transform into a suitable alternate form to deal with the problem. If that option is not available for whatever reason, he will withdraw if feasible using Teleport or if necessary an Extra-Dimensional shift. If he must stand his ground, he will usually Summon assistance rather than trying to fight directly.

Campaign Use: Equinox in his base form will rarely appear in a campaign, as he will usually stick with one alternative form or another rather than switching to his base form. This makes him more of a plot device than anything else; as such, the PC should consult with the GM before switching to his base form.

Background: Millenia ago, god-like beings both fair and fell walked the Earth and battled against one another. Among these were the Lords of Change, a pantheon of benevolent but sometimes mischevous deities. The Lords of Change were among the first to recognize that the eventual conclusion of those battles would be the destruction of the Earth; as a result they departed for other dimensions, taking their more powerful servants with them. They did, however, leave some of their lesser servants behind, well-concealed and in stasis, in case they should want to return one day.

Equinox is a Lesser Avatar of Change which has been in stasis for almost the entirety of the last 90 millenia. In 1971, a mystic supervillainess by the name of TBD-01 accidentally stumbled across the gate leading to the starchamber where Equinox was entombed, and was able to activate it. Once inside, TBD-01 was unable to determine the purpose of the starchamber, but sensed it held great power, and so sought to drain it for her own use. A trio of superheroes caught wind of TBD-01's ambitions and were able to arrive in time to intervene. However, meddling with forces one doesn't understand is rarely advisable; attempting to drain the stasis field without understanding the safety restraints placed upon it proved to be a catastrophic mistake on the part of the villainess. The stasis field imploded, mortally wounding the villainess and each of the heroes, but simultaneously slowing their bodily functions to a fraction of their normal pace. In the center of the conflagration, a column of brilliant, coruscating light slowly coalesced into a human-like form with eyes seemingly composed of that same coruscating light.

Remainder TBD, outline follows:

- Equinox absorbs the four forms over the course of about an hour apiece. He realizes that there are still destructive forces at work in the world, and in the absence of his masters, decides to do something about them.

- Over the next 30 years, Equinox adds new forms as occasion arises. Currently he has a total of 8 forms stored in his matrix.

Alternate forms: TBD-01 (mystic), Quicksilver (speedster), TBD-03 (power-armour), TBD-04 (mentalist), others?

Fireg0lem

Aug 16th, '03, 11:30 PM

I wouldn't allow this, on the basis that he can effectively make the rest of the team obselete. He's basically a very flexible base character (giving him humongous noncombat power) who additionally can turn into eight seperate forms, each of which is built around an out-of-game archetype. The fact is, he can turn into a 350 point speedster, and have the option of doing other stuff. Compare that to a player whose character is just a 350 point speedster.
Worse yet is the power armor character. He'll spend all his time "on-duty" as the power-armor guy, then, when he loses his armor, just change into something else.
If you want to make it workable - cut the number of points in the Multiforms, I'd suggest to 300, then make absolutely sure that any disadvantages and power limitations on those forms cannot simply be avoided by changing forms = don't let Power Armor Man take -1/2 on everything, because he's not getting any real limiting effect out of it. I'd also seriously consider restricting him from having forms that basically turn him into a one-man-team; maybe try building the forms around something other than metagame archetypes.

OddHat

Aug 17th, '03, 03:52 AM

Only in a "Cosmic" level game. In my Wild Cards level campaign (my default setting) I'd permit the base form with VPP and Regen (even if he sunk points into a more combat effective VPP) or Multiform, but not both. Not because the villains couldn't "get" him; The GM can always come up with any number of ways to capture, kill, etc. any character. The problem is that (with Multiform into other Supers) he'd overshadow every other player in the game.
Maybe if the Multiform were only into characters without power frameworks and no disads or limitations that are meaningless to a multiform character (such as foci) and no perks that arguabley cross over from form to form without charge (wealth, vehicles, bases), or if the Multiforms were all creatures from the Bestiary; even then, I'd monitor the new forms carefully. As you noted, Multiform is a major Stop Sign power.

Zed-F

Aug 17th, '03, 09:11 AM

Great, thanks for the comments!

You're right that it probably wouldn't be fair to other players if this character constantly overshadowed them in a normal power level game, and certainly he isn't powerful enough to compete in a cosmic level game. I'd like to keep the paired VPP/multiform concept, but if he's going to be a jack of all trades, he shouldn't be able to beat any of the other players in their specialties (at least most of the time.)

You're also correct that stuff like power armour isn't too limiting if you can just change to another form that doesn't need power armour. If the multiform were more limited (say you could only change once an hour), then power armour might be worth a restrainable (-1/4) limitation, otherwise it's just a special effect. Perks that cross over from form to form would have to be bought for all forms; that's already part of the multiform rules.

I think I could rework him/tone him down without too much difficulty. Some other changes might be in order while I'm at it; I'm not really sure about the whole muliform amnesia thing anyway as it seems like it might be too contrived and awkward. As it stands, the character is too powerful and perhaps not quite flexible enough with the multiform for a real jack of all trades character.

OddHat

Aug 17th, '03, 09:51 AM

One possible set of design changes that might make the character more "balanced" (for a given value of "balanced");

1) Shared mind. Share most or all KS and Int skills among all forms. From a RP point of view (as you typed) the multiform amnesia thing is a bit awkward. From a mechanics point of view, giving all forms access to the same memories / INT skills prevents having one form as the ultimate repository of knowledge character, and cuts some of the point advantage over other skills based characters in the group. If one form is not much of a thinker, a much lower INT but with the same skills could reflect that ("It's hard to think in Demon form...so angry...").

2) Shared Regen. Your Regen includes resurection; if you get killed in a combat form, most GMs are going to let you come back thanks to the base forms resurection, though many would then rule that the combat form was "dead" and the points lost. Share the regen among all forms and that's no longer a problem; it also helps cut your advantage vs. the other players (not good from a point optimization POV, but useful from a balance POV).

Thee net result would be that you'd have 50-100 points tied up in each form; the specialist brick would have that much more of an advantage over you brick, the specialist MA would have that much more of an advantage over your MA, and so on. If you included a no meaningless limits and no power frameworks approach, you'd effectively be playing 9 200 point heroes while everyone else played one 350 pointer. The PC would be very flexible, and the specialists would still comfortably out-perform it in their specialities.

YMMV and all that.

Zed-F

Aug 17th, '03, 11:08 AM

Sounds like some good suggestions. The one thing I don't quite agree with is the no power frameworks in other forms concept. Not giving benefit for limitations that don't really limit is definitely the right thing to do, but not allowing power frameworks to tie together a number of powers with related special effects sounds like it's going a bit too far. Playing 9 200- or 250-point characters rather than a 350-point character, you're giving up quite a few points in any given form. But if you then make each of those forms buy enough defenses and movement powers to just survive in a setting where most characters have a 100+ point advantage AND access to power frameworks to multiply that advantage, they probably won't have enough left to do much of anything.

Unless you want each form in the multiform to be as unidimensional as some villains are, I suspect that the multiform character will need access to power frameworks in his alternate forms to be able to compete at all. The whole point of this guy is supposed to be versatility, not just in his ability to assume different forms, but that each different form is also more-or-less self-sufficient. For instance, each of the heroes he absorbed at the beginning of his backstory would have had their own movement powers, their own defense powers, and so forth, so there will naturally be a significant amount of overlap between forms. I could have a character with a multiform like this have one form be the movement form, another form be an invulnerable tank, and so forth, but that's pretty unidimensional and doesn't fit the character concept. It doesn't seem right that the base form itself would be the only way in which he was versatile, and the best way to promote versatility in the subordinate forms would be to allow power frameworks in them.

OddHat

Aug 17th, '03, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Zed-F
SNIP
The one thing I don't quite agree with is the no power frameworks in other forms concept. Not giving benefit for limitations that don't really limit is definitely the right thing to do, but not allowing power frameworks to tie together a number of powers with related special effects sounds like it's going a bit too far.
SNIP
Unless you want each form in the multiform to be as unidimensional as some villains are, I suspect that the multiform character will need access to power frameworks in his alternate forms to be able to compete at all. The whole point of this guy is supposed to be versatility, not just in his ability to assume different forms, but that each different form is also more-or-less self-sufficient.

Point taken. I was thinking more on the lines of "this is my movement form, this is my attack form, this is my enhanced senses form" than on the order of "these are 9 full range lower-powered heroes with one mind."

Zed-F

Aug 17th, '03, 02:19 PM

Sounds good, I expect to post a new version soon. I'm going to keep the regeneration on the base form only -- as I've written up the character, when a form dies, it dies, and I have to write up a new form to replace it. The GM has a couple of options at that point: he could either have that new form show up as an NPC in the game so that my character could absorb it, or else my character would need to spend a few uninterrupted days in base form to evolve it on his own. Either could make a reasonable plot point for an adventure. I wouldn't expect that I would lose the points for the form, since I didn't buy Independent on it, and since I could just spend a couple XP to double the number of forms anyway. The character has a built-in rationale for his ability to gain more forms so it seems silly to ignore it, but I do want there to be consequences from a role-playing POV if a form dies.

That said, there will be a couple powers that propagate across all forms, and increase the point gap between this char's sub-forms and the specialists.

EDIT: Here's the skinny, minus the background. Any comments? Does this look more in line for a normal power-level char? Given the skills, power defense, and mental defense that must be bought for each form, and starting from a 300-pt. base, I expect each subform will have between 200 and 225 points to work with to formulate their archetype.

<TABLE BORDER=1> <TR> <TH ALIGN=CENTER COLSPAN=8> Equinox </TH> </TR>   <TR> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Val</TH> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Char</TH> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Cost</TH> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=MIDDLE COLSPAN=5 ROWSPAN=2>  </TR> <TR>  <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 10 10 10 10 30 20 20 10 2 2 3 4 20 20 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> STR DEX CON BODY INT EGO PRE COM PD ED SPD REC END STUN </TD>  <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 0 0 0 0 20 20 10 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 </TD> </TR>   <TR> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Cost</TH> <TH ALIGN=LEFT COLSPAN=6>Powers and Talents</TH> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>END</TH> </TR> <TR>  <TD ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 25 25 5 25     36         120 </TD>  <TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=6 NOWRAP> 20 Mental Defense (24 Total), Hardened (+1/4), Required for all forms (-0) 20 Power Defense, Hardened (+1/4), Required for all forms (-0) LS: Immortal Regenerate: Healing, 1 BODY/Turn, including limbs+resurrect, 0 END Cost (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2). Note: Incineration prevents Resurrection. Evolve Form: Multiform, 8x300-pt. Forms, plus Instant Change (80 AP), Reversion (AsPow, only when at or below -10 BODY, -0), 3 Recoverable Charges (recovers 1 charge/5 min, -3/4), Side Effect (Minor: 20 AP [1d6 Drain, Affects x2: INT/EGO (+1/2), Recover 5 AP per 5 min (+1/2)], Always occurs, -1/2), Evolve Power: 80-pt. Variable Power Pool, Any SFX (+0) </TD>  <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP>                         </TD> </TR>   <TR> <TH ALIGN=CENTER>Cost</TH> <TH ALIGN=LEFT COLSPAN=7>Skills and Perks</TH> </TR> <TR>  <TD ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 54 </TD>  <TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=7 NOWRAP> Skills/Perks, TBD (INT-based skills and Perks are required for all forms) </TD> </TR>   <TR> <TH ALIGN=RIGHT>200+</TH> <TH ALIGN=LEFT COLSPAN=7>Disadvantages</TH> </TR> <TR>  <TD ALIGN=RIGHT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=1 NOWRAP> 150 </TD>  <TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=7 NOWRAP> TBD </TD> </TR>   <TR> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP COLSPAN=8 NOWRAP> OCV:3 DCV:3 ECV:7 Phases:4, 8, 12 </TD> </TR>  <TR> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Costs </TD> <TD></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Char 60 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Powers 290 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Total 350 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Disads 150 </TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP NOWRAP> Base 200 </TD> <TD></TD> </TR></TABLE>

Zed-F

Aug 18th, '03, 04:38 AM

Updated Powers/Tactics and Campaign Use section of his background as per above changes. Again, comments are welcome! Is he in-line with a normal hero power level, still too strong, or too weak?

Powers/Tactics: As an Avatar of Change, Equinox has the power to evolve new abilities very quickly -- within a matter of seconds, rather than millenia. Evolving entirely new forms is also within his abilities, though this normally takes considerably longer, on the order of a few days. Having a template to work from (as in the case with the hero team whose identities he absorbed) makes this easier and quicker, but it is not required. However, regardless of the form he takes, his memories, knowledge, and certain of his properties will remain constant. Under most circumstances, the Lords of Change abstained from direct revelations of their power to their worshippers; in Equinox, this outlook translates into a preference to use his alternative forms to interact with the world, rather than his true form. As Equinox is only a Lesser Avatar, changing forms causes a slight disruption of his power matrix, which puts a limit how frequently he can do it; once that limit has been reached, he requires a certain amount of time to realign his power matrix before he can transform again. Additionally, if Equinox's BODY is reduced to -10 while in an alternate form, then that form's template in Equinox's power matrix is destabilized, and that form "dies," at least until such time as Equinox can recreate or replace it.

Equinox in his base form is not particularily well-suited for combat, as he's physically unimpressive and he takes a significant amount of time to evolve new powers. If he does sense that danger is at hand, his preferred response is to transform into a suitable alternate form to deal with the problem. If that option is not available for whatever reason, he will withdraw if feasible using Teleport or if necessary an Extra-Dimensional shift. If he must stand his ground, he will usually Summon assistance rather than trying to fight directly.

Campaign Use: Equinox in his base form will seldom make an appearance, as he will usually stick with one alternative form or another rather than switching to his base form. The 300- point base for alternate forms and required purchases on some powers/skills mean that the alternate forms will have around 200-225 RP to build their archetypes. The intention of this restriction is that none of Equinox's alternative forms should overshadow another 350-point specialist PC in his own field. If this turns out to be too few points, the GM could allow Equinox to purchase a higher base value for his alternate forms.

Zed-F

Aug 19th, '03, 11:19 AM

No comment = all is well?

OddHat

Aug 19th, '03, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Zed-F
No comment = all is well?

He looks more useable than he did in his first incarnation. There are all kinds of tweaks to suggest, but they come down to personal taste much more than mechanics or ballance concerns.

For instance, as a player I'd prefer a base form that interacts with the world a bit more; As it is, there's not much real reason for the base form ever to show up at all. That would mean another point of speed (for minimum SH level combat effectiveness, and remembering that the VPP can provide a further boost), maybe some more PRE. OTOH your origin story makes it clear that this is intentional. To each his own.

Mechanically this should work well and without raining on the other player's parades.

Zed-F

Aug 19th, '03, 11:47 AM

Certainly a bit more SPD and PRE could come out of the 54-point budget allocated for skills, since skills are relatively easy to pick up as time goes on. It's also possible that I could redesign it so that the VPP is the province of one of the subordinate forms rather than the base form.

Anyway, I've put this idea on the back burner for now and am working on other characters. I just wanted to make sure that the balance angle was reasonably well in hand before shelving the concept for later re-examination. Thanks for your contribution.