The Ultimate Fight Champions Style! Grond Vs Ripper

[Adventus]

From the Grond vs. Hulk Thread:

In middle of a combat Ripper accidentally hits Grond and Grond opens a can of Whoopa** on Ripper. Who wins?

[Lord Liaden]

Ripper is tougher, faster, has better CV HTH, and his temporary STR boost makes him stronger than Grond, long enough to beat Grond down. Moreover, Ripper's Rip 'Em In Two big HKA is Penetrating, and Grond's DEF isn't Hardened.

Grond might give a good account of himself, especially if he can use his extra SPD for more punches; but IMO Ripper outmatches him.

[Pariah]

However, Grond has more XP (He's been around longer, after all) and the writers like him better. So Grond wins. :D

[Marcus]

By the numbers, Ripper in a runaway. Grond is an interesting superbrick. Ripper is insane.

That said, Grond IS the crowd favorite. Also, I believe the Ultimate Brick version of Grond can remove ripper from the playing field... which should count as a 'W'...

[Pariah]

...and Ripper just has a stupid name, let's not forget that. 'Grond', on the other hand, comes to us from Tolkien. Yet another reason that Grond wins!

[DusterBoy]

Which brings up a point about naming characters. Did ole Sidney Potter ever read Tolkien, 'cos while yes, Grond is a cool name for an anthropomorphic battering ram, if the character doesn't know about the name, there's no way he'd name himself that?

Y'see, ya gotta keep in mind the distinction between what you know and what your character knows.

PS: IMHO, Grond's 4 arms give him an advantage and there's all those vulnerable (and easily damaged) cybernetic implants on Ripper for him to tear off. So Grond would win (maybe), but the city would look like New Orleans after Katrina no matter the victor.

And it's like Marcus says - Ripper is insane.

[nexus]

Which brings up a point about naming characters. Did ole Sidney Potter ever read Tolkien, 'cos while yes, Grond is a cool name for an anthropomorphic battering ram, if the character doesn't know about the name, there's no way he'd name himself that?

Y'see, ya gotta keep in mind the distinction between what you know and what your character knows.


Maybe some one dubbed him "Grond" and it stuck.

[Lord Liaden]

Which brings up a point about naming characters. Did ole Sidney Potter ever read Tolkien, 'cos while yes, Grond is a cool name for an anthropomorphic battering ram, if the character doesn't know about the name, there's no way he'd name himself that?

Y'see, ya gotta keep in mind the distinction between what you know and what your character knows.

This is assuming that whichever of the original authors came up with "Grond" knew the reference. If you're not a Tolkien buff it's pretty obscure. I wouldn't be surprised if they just thought up a name that sounded strong and monsterous.

Within continuity, it might just be an inarticulate grunt that Grond came out with one day that a bystander thought was his name; or that Grond just liked the sound of. ;)


PS: IMHO, Grond's 4 arms give him an advantage and there's all those vulnerable (and easily damaged) cybernetic implants on Ripper for him to tear off. So Grond would win (maybe), but the city would look like New Orleans after Katrina no matter the victor.

Grond's four arms let him get in a couple of extra punches in a Turn (6 rather than 4), but only half the time (Activation 11-). And Ripper has up to 40 PD with his armor, plus 75% Damage Reduction. Most of the time even Grond's punches would do less than 10 net STUN, while each of Ripper's max STR 100 punches will do 30 STUN past Defenses to Grond on average.

Also note that 5E Ripper's cybernetic attachments are no longer bought as Foci, so technically aren't vulnerable in a straight fight.


And it's like Marcus says - Ripper is insane.

Since when is that a disadvantage in a straight brawl with someone dumber than a chimpanzee? :p

[Lord Liaden]

By the numbers, Ripper in a runaway. Grond is an interesting superbrick. Ripper is insane.

That said, Grond IS the crowd favorite. Also, I believe the Ultimate Brick version of Grond can remove ripper from the playing field... which should count as a 'W'...

You must be referring to Grond's "Stratospheric Punch" and "Throw" (MegaScale on his STR for Knockback or Throwing distance). Yes, if that version of Grond succeeds in doing that Ripper will end up a long distance away. The first time. If they have a rematch Ripper can brace himself against Knockback, and with his STR he's unlikely to go anywhere.

You bring up a good point about Grond being the "crowd favorite," though. In the published 4E CU almost no one was stronger than Grond, so strength-wise he was a big name in the setting. Under 5E there are a number of characters who are stronger, not to mention faster and tougher. Grond is still played up like a big name in the setting, but his numbers no longer back that up. Hopefully his 6E incarnation will be upgraded to match his rep.

[Matt the Bruins]

And Ripper has up to 40 PD with his armor, plus 75% Damage Reduction.
Am I the only one the latter just doesn't sit well with? In my head, 75% Damage Reduction is appropriate either for metamorphs with completely fluid, decentralized bodies (think the Venom symbiote, or John Carpenter's The Thing) or something Godzilla-sized that normal scale attacks just can't damage enough of. Adding it to a sky-high PD for a brick character seems excessive.

[Log-Man]

Ripper would win the first fight. However, Grond would go away and prepare for the rematch, and Grond always wins the rematch.

[lemming]

Ripper would win the first fight. However, Grond would go away and prepare for the rematch, and Grond always wins the rematch.

Just as long as Grond can get a training montage in.

[Lord Liaden]

Just as long as Grond can get a training montage in.

"Workin' hard now, gettin' green now..."

[Lord Liaden]

Am I the only one the latter just doesn't sit well with? In my head, 75% Damage Reduction is appropriate either for metamorphs with completely fluid, decentralized bodies (think the Venom symbiote, or John Carpenter's The Thing) or something Godzilla-sized that normal scale attacks just can't damage enough of. Adding it to a sky-high PD for a brick character seems excessive.

I found it excessive too, not on a conceptual basis, but because it makes Ripper extremely difficult for opponents, even with comparable Damage Class attacks (like Grond), to hurt significantly. Granted half of Ripper's Defense is on an Activation Roll, but even so.

I wouldn't mind so much if his DR was Limited to Ripper going Berserk, so he becomes oblivious to pain. With his Disadvantages that's likely to happen at some point whenever Ripper is in a fight, but at least PC heroes may get a few shots in first.

[Princedarkstorm]

Grong would rip up the Ripper ... I made a funny ( Poor sense of humor ).
:celebrate

[Nerdnumber1]

By the numbers, Ripper in a runaway. Grond is an interesting superbrick. Ripper is insane.

That said, Grond IS the crowd favorite. Also, I believe the Ultimate Brick version of Grond can remove ripper from the playing field... which should count as a 'W'...

The megascale knockback attacks could be a major factor. The time that a possibly enraged ripper would take to return to the fight would burn out his strength boost. Ripper wouldn't be able to keep Grond held long enough to use his signature move without his strength boost and would be out matched in offense. However, his incredible defense would still make it at least a close fight. If Grond doesn't eliminate and run out the strength boost, he's done for.

[nexus]

The plus to the "vs" thread is that characters are objectively presented. They have game stats so their performance levels are set aside from writer's fiat. The big issues seem to be Grond's megascale knock back and Ripper defenses and limited Strength boost. There it really comes down to tactics and role playing. Would Grond use his ability to swat Ripper into the next state and how soon? Tactical genius he is not but then it suits and enraged to behemoth to wide up and knock an annoying target into to next Tuesday. Would Ripper immediately try to charge back to the fight or just start tearing up where ever he lands?

I think in a white room they stand there and just hit each other scenario Ripper would win. It's just hard for Grond to significant damage to him but Ripper can seriously pummel Grond in return with the additional Strength and Grond isn't a tactical enough thinker to go on the defensive until the Boost wears off. He doesn't seem to be like the Hulk who can be surprisingly canny in a fight.

[Nerdnumber1]

The plus to the "vs" thread is that characters are objectively presented. They have game stats so their performance levels are set aside from writer's fiat. The big issues seem to be Grond's megascale knock back and Ripper defenses and limited Strength boost. There it really comes down to tactics and role playing. Would Grond use his ability to swat Ripper into the next state and how soon? Tactical genius he is not but then it suits and enraged to behemoth to wide up and knock an annoying target into to next Tuesday. Would Ripper immediately try to charge back to the fight or just start tearing up where ever he lands?

I think in a white room they stand there and just hit each other scenario Ripper would win. It's just hard for Grond to significant damage to him but Ripper can seriously pummel Grond in return with the additional Strength and Grond isn't a tactical enough thinker to go on the defensive until the Boost wears off. He doesn't seem to be like the Hulk who can be surprisingly canny in a fight.

The megascale knockback attack isn't necesarily the product of tactical thinking, but pure rage. In fact, it is normally an inconvenience that your punching-bag flew so far away.

[nexus]

The megascale knockback attack isn't necesarily the product of tactical thinking...

I didn't say it was but exploiting it deliberately would be so is unlikely as some thing Grond would do on purpose so it's a subjective IOW: role playing based decision on if it would come into play and how it would effect the battle scenario not cut and dried as our a couple of other things I mention so even though in this case we have relatively objective measurements of the character's respective abilities unlikes most "fantasy" vs discussions there's room for variance.

[Lord Liaden]

IF Ripper knows about and anticipates Grond's MegaScale capacity, AND chooses to Brace against it with his boosted STR (with Ripper's Defenses he shouldn't worry about the DCV penalty), Grond would have to roll very well to do any Knockback (in addition to making his Power Skill roll to pull it off at all). Without that tactic succeeding Ripper has the clear advantage. So, it comes down to tactics (not the strong suit of either of these monsters) and luck.

[Admiral C]

Am I the only one the latter just doesn't sit well with? In my head, 75% Damage Reduction is appropriate either for metamorphs with completely fluid, decentralized bodies (think the Venom symbiote, or John Carpenter's The Thing) or something Godzilla-sized that normal scale attacks just can't damage enough of. Adding it to a sky-high PD for a brick character seems excessive.

I agree. It makes Ripper a good supermenace to take on an entire team but such a fight might drag on too long.

[nexus]

IF Ripper knows about and anticipates Grond's MegaScale capacity, AND chooses to Brace against it with his boosted STR (with Ripper's Defenses he shouldn't worry about the DCV penalty), Grond would have to roll very well to do any Knockback (in addition to making his Power Skill roll to pull it off at all). Without that tactic succeeding Ripper has the clear advantage. So, it comes down to tactics (not the strong suit of either of these monsters) and luck.

This brings up an interesting point. Ripper is, IIRC, homicidally insane and violent but not "stupid" per se and could be more tactical in combat than Grond at least until he Berserks. My Viper sourcebook is unavailable at the moment so I can't double check this so if anyone has more of an idea about Ripper's psych profile?

[HawksmoorSD]

I think like a lot of others I've got a soft spot for Grond and what he used to be but the black and white of it has Ripper winning this fight.

Then we get an army of Grond-like Viper agents beating the snot out of whomever shows up. The joy. :idjit:

[Lord Liaden]

This brings up an interesting point. Ripper is, IIRC, homicidally insane and violent but not "stupid" per se and could be more tactical in combat than Grond at least until he Berserks. My Viper sourcebook is unavailable at the moment so I can't double check this so if anyone has more of an idea about Ripper's psych profile?

Well, I took this from Ripper's "Powers/Tactics" description: "Even after years of playing the 'supervillain game,' Ripper doesn't have a lot of tactical sense. His approach to combat consists of little more than 'punch it 'til it stops moving, then attack the next guy.' He particularly enjoys Grabbing his opponents (especially small, fast-moving ones like martial artists) and literally tearing them limb from limb -- hence his nom du crime. Sometimes he shows flashes of greater tactical awareness, such as picking up large objects and using them to hit groups of enemies, but usually he sticks to his tried and true 'beat them into unconsciousness' method." (V: COTS p. 151) Note that Ripper has an 11- chance of going Berserk every Phase he's in combat or using his Strength-boosting technology (VIPER keeps special tranquilizing darts for this contingency, although they're reportedly not infallible).

Compare this with the description of Grond's tactics from CKC: "Grond isn't smart or clear-headed enough to have any real grasp of tactics; mostly he just smashes people who annoy him again and again until they stop moving or something distracts him. The closest he comes to a clever tactic is to Grab someone with two of his arms, then use his other two arms to pummel them while they're at reduced DCV." (CKC p. 155) OTOH Grond is much less likely to go Berserk than Ripper, as by his Psych Lims this only happens if Grond thinks he's been tricked, which is extremely unlikely for Ripper to even attempt.

It seems that each of these combatants is capable of at least basic basic tactical choices, although Ripper is a little smarter and likely more flexible. If neither of them is familiar with the other (not likely in continuity, but for the sake of argument), Ripper might not Brace against Knockback, but I don't think Grond would try to use his MegaScale Knockback or Throw right away as they're more difficult to pull off than his normal attacks. After Grond has been seriously hurt by Ripper he would probably try it, but by that point Ripper should be resisting Knockback. He may try to Grab Grond and use his deadly Penetrating HKA move, and with his boosted STR has a good chance of holding on to Grond until the latter is at negative BODY. Even if Ripper goes Berserk at that point he'd likely keep gripping and ripping, as that's one of his favorite attacks. If Ripper is just pounding away when he goes Berserk he'll likely forget to brace himself, and go flying from a MegaScale hit by Grond (assuming Grond isn't already unconscious by then).

[Princedarkstorm]

The Ripper now is a nutcase .
But the Classic Ripper was not as insane .
But the money is still on Grond !

[name_tamer]

This thread makes me think of that old cartoon in Champions II (IIRC) in which Foxbat demands we send our unused XP to him so he can improve his lousy CV.

Can't we take up a collection of unused XP to buy hardened defenses, and another +10 STR, for Grond? He really deserves it.

[Log-Man]

This thread makes me think of that old cartoon in Champions II (IIRC) in which Foxbat demands we send our unused XP to him so he can improve his lousy CV.

Can't we take up a collection of unused XP to buy hardened defenses, and another +10 STR, for Grond? He really deserves it.
I can donate some points.


I sure as hell ain't gettin' any use from them.

[Princedarkstorm]

We could get the Monster to join in this fight ?:thumbup::D

[Lord Liaden]

The Monster is exceptionally durable, and is quicker and more agile than either of these brutes, so he could survive an extended period against them; but not even the Monster dishes out enough raw damage to match them offensively. His Strength is also considerably less -- all Ripper or Grond have to do is get their hands on him and keep squeezing, and he'll succumb before long.

[HawksmoorSD]

After they squash the Monster they decide to go for some Starbucks coffee and they both go berserk because of the prices and the whole city pays.

Really!!!

[Marcus]

Am I the only one the latter just doesn't sit well with? In my head, 75% Damage Reduction is appropriate either for metamorphs with completely fluid, decentralized bodies (think the Venom symbiote, or John Carpenter's The Thing) or something Godzilla-sized that normal scale attacks just can't damage enough of. Adding it to a sky-high PD for a brick character seems excessive.

The habit of CU authors of handing 50 and 75% DR out to people, especially people that already have high defenses, for no conceptual reason other than 'we want to make sure this individual can fight an entire superteam, alone, stupidly' is one of my few real disconnects with a setting I otherwise adore.

[Princedarkstorm]

Starbucks?
Why not Coffe Bean?
:thumbup:

[DocSamson]

I posted what I thought would be a decent upgrade for Grond, but I think my thread was deleted. A few people agreed Grond needs some tweaks otherwise there are a few other bricks that could beat him too.

[Princedarkstorm]

I always thought Grond was a very powerful foe .I always enjoyed using him against my players and as a example as a classic brick .