Area of Effect Defense

[Jachra]

A spell that provides magical defenses to party members.
Effect: Provides improved defense to the members. The party members should be able to attack, still, so Force Wall is right out.

So far, I'm thinking Force Field, Usable as Attack (so she's the one who pays the END), Multiple Targets (and throw in Ranged so the priest doesn't have to touch everyone in the party.)
Would Area of Effect: Selective be more appropriate, or is it simply a matter of choice?

[schir1964]

I believe one of the Digital Hero articles actually gives a House Rule example of how to apply Area Of Effect to Force Field. You might find that useful.

- Christopher Mullins

[Psylint]

An easier, Rules as written way:

Everyone in the team takes Armor.

The Protector takes "Super Duper Area of Effect Defensiveness"

xd6 Aid Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

or for the constantly maintained and instantly dropped shield of defensiveness

xd6 Succor Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

Peace

[Doc Democracy]

A spell that provides magical defenses to party members.
Effect: Provides improved defense to the members. The party members should be able to attack, still, so Force Wall is right out.

You could use Aid. I would allow PD and ED to be aided, or even resistant versions to add to what almost all characters have.

You could use advantaged Aid to be able to add to all kinds of defences.


Doc

[Doc Democracy]

An easier, Rules as written way:

Everyone in the team takes Armor.

The Protector takes "Super Duper Area of Effect Defensiveness"

xd6 Aid Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

or for the constantly maintained and instantly dropped shield of defensiveness

xd6 Succor Armor, Area of Effect Radius, Selective Target.

Peace

Whoops - should scan thw WHOLE thread before responding!

[Hyper-Man]

A spell that provides magical defenses to party members.
Effect: Provides improved defense to the members. The party members should be able to attack, still, so Force Wall is right out.

So far, I'm thinking Force Field, Usable as Attack (so she's the one who pays the END), Multiple Targets (and throw in Ranged so the priest doesn't have to touch everyone in the party.)
Would Area of Effect: Selective be more appropriate, or is it simply a matter of choice?

If using a VPP based spell system here's a simple way to do it:

36 Friends don't let friends fight without a force field...: Force Field (10 PD/10 ED) (Protect Carried Items), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4), Selective (+1/4) (90 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4), IIF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) [1 cc]
Notes: The AOE Radius just defines the range that allies need to be within when the effect begins. The range is Line Of Site after that.

[Jachra]

*smack forehead*
Aid! Of course, what an idiot. Except Aid only increases existing powers and I'm technically not permitting armor as a personal power (at the moment. If I do later, it's as a solely cinematic thing that I wouldn't permit to be Aided except by equally cinematic excuses.)

Usable Simultaneously is an idea, except then everyone needs to pay the END for its usage... unless I permit it to be 'usable per day' instead of END and so available for a Charge.

Also, when Usable by Attack says it can be 'attached' to a target, does that obviate the Line of Sight issue or do I still need to apply the other various Advantage hurdles I would for the other UOOs?

[Hyper-Man]

*smack forehead*
Aid! Of course, what an idiot. Except Aid only increases existing powers and I'm technically not permitting armor as a personal power (at the moment. If I do later, it's as a solely cinematic thing that I wouldn't permit to be Aided except by equally cinematic excuses.)

Usable Simultaneously is an idea, except then everyone needs to pay the END for its usage... unless I permit it to be 'usable per day' instead of END and so available for a Charge.

Also, when Usable by Attack says it can be 'attached' to a target, does that obviate the Line of Sight issue or do I still need to apply the other various Advantage hurdles I would for the other UOOs?

Continuous Charges remove END from the equation. They also have 'uncontrolled' like effects so they might negate the Line of Sight requirements as well.

One thing to remember when using Usable As Attack vs. Simultaneously is that the defenses provided by the UAA version can't be used by the caster whereas the defenses with USim can.

[CTaylor]

Force Field, usable by others works. Buy area effect if you want them to get it in an area, or UBO if you want them to run about with it independently.

[Hyper-Man]

Force Field, usable by others works. Buy area effect if you want them to get it in an area, or UBO if you want them to run about with it independently.


Actually,
adding AOE to a Self Only ability like Force Field does nothing without adding some form of UBO first. All the AOE (or Usable At Range) does then is remove the 'touch' requirement to begin the UBO effect. Once an ability is granted via UBO its range is Line of Sight (even without AOE or Usable At Range)

[mmshah]

Aid to ED/PD/Armor however would be subject to the 1/2 effect that adjustment powers have on defensive abilites. They also fade at the full rate which is also bad.

[CTaylor]

Right, sorry I left that off: usable by one other with area effect will do the trick: anyone within the area gets the protection. You can actually remove the LOS effect from usable by others, it just costs a bit more.

[Killer Shrike]

Try some kind of triggered effect. War Man has a Missile Deflection version:

War Man (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/War-Man%20(Blaster).HTML)

Look at the Actuated Energy Grid Interdiction System.

This works specifically vs ranged type attacks, not melee, but a version based on Dispel or Suppress or some other base effect could be built.

[CTaylor]

I think suppress goes off after the attack if you buy it as a defense, doesn't it? You can house rule that to work differently as I think it should.

[PhilFleischmann]

Actually,
adding AOE to a Self Only ability like Force Field does nothing without adding some form of UBO first. All the AOE (or Usable At Range) does then is remove the 'touch' requirement to begin the UBO effect. Once an ability is granted via UBO its range is Line of Sight (even without AOE or Usable At Range)
I prefer Force Field AOE Selective. IMO, saying "AOE does nothing without ..." fails Tesuji's "stupid test". A +1 Advantage (+1.25 in this case) should do quite a bit. Of course, it means that there's a maximum distance that your allies can go from you in order to be affected. And you have to buy Extended Area to increase this. Or you could buy Range, but then you might not be able to cover yourself at the same time.

So, just to try out some random numbers:

10 PD/10 ED FF (Base = 20 Points), AOE, Selective = 45 Active Points, costs 4 END/phase, but only has a 2" radius. That's probably not good enough, so let's add some Extended Area:

x8 Extended Area (+3/4) = 60 Active points, 16" radius around the guy generating the power, and he pays 6 END per phase. An ally who moves more than 16" away won't be protected. Enemies within 16" aren't covered, due to the Selective, though an enemy could always pose as a friend.

[Hyper-Man]

I prefer Force Field AOE Selective. IMO, saying "AOE does nothing without ..." fails Tesuji's "stupid test".


Last time I checked the book cover it showed that Steve Long wrote the rules, not Tesuji.

According to RAW (rules as written) a self only power will only affect the owner unless some form of Usable By Other is applied PERIOD.

Anything else is a House Rule.

[PhilFleischmann]

Last time I checked the book cover it showed that Steve Long wrote the rules, not Tesuji.

According to RAW (rules as written) a self only power will only affect the owner unless some form of Usable By Other is applied PERIOD.

Anything else is a House Rule.
So? Just because something stupid is a rule doesn't mean you have to follow it.

[bigbywolfe]

When discussing the best way to do something we tend to try to use the RAW. This is not because we have to, but because if everyone posted all of their responses based entirely on a myriad of house rules then nothing would ever get accurately communicated. Plus, stating a rule is "stupid" is fine if it's an opinion, not so much if it's stated as a fact to support an argument. It borders on argumentative without supporting your take on the matter.

Edit: Almost forgot, most rules, even the ones you consider "stupid", generally have a reason. Most often the reason is either for game balance, or simply following the idea of reasoning from effect, the core principle of the Hero System. If you take a look I’m sure you’ll find a logical, “non-stupid” reason for the rule, even if you disagree with it.

[CTaylor]

Since usable by one other (all that's required with AE to cover everyone in the area) and selective costs the same, you've not changed the active cost any with either build. Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone, and allows you to not protect people you choose to in the area.

[Hyper-Man]

Since usable by one other (all that's required with AE to cover everyone in the area) and selective costs the same, you've not changed the active cost any with either build. Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone, and allows you to not protect people you choose to in the area.

No.

AOE is only a variant to adding Ranged to an otherwise Self Only ability. They only remove the normal initial touch requirement from abilities with UBO (They have no effect on the continuing Line Of Sight requirement). The LEVELof Usable By Others* purchased is the sole factor that determines the number of targets that can benefit from the base Self Only power.

*(if usable by more than one other it's actually becomes Usable Simultaneously)

A GM can certainly rule otherwise but that's the base rule.

[bigbywolfe]

Since usable by one other (all that's required with AE to cover everyone in the area) and selective costs the same, you've not changed the active cost any with either build. Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone, and allows you to not protect people you choose to in the area.

How does "Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone"? I know you have to make an attack role for each character if an AoE is selective, but generally helpful abilities (specifically Adjustment Power, but this is acting like an Adjustment Power, so if a GM allowed it at all, he would probably count it as such) are assumed to hit "willing targets". Even requiring a roll for each person you want to cover doesn't make the build any more legal. IMO it would still be more potent than UOO.


Let’s try this with Force Field using AoE, assuming no AP or DC caps.


180 Everyone’s Protected: FF-30PD/30ED, (60 AP), AoE Radius, (+1), Selective (+1/2), Double Radius (+1/4), Reduced END, Only to Activate (+1/4). (This would give you a 12” radius.)
Built this way, everyone on your team and any innocent NPCs within over a quarter of a football field away from you have all the rDEF they will probably ever need. Using Standard Effect it would take 10d6K to match the defense. That’s 30 Damage Classes of Killing Damage. I would see this as a potential game breaker.

Let’s assume a 60AP cap.

60 Everyone’s Slightly Less Protected: FF-10PD/10ED (20AP), plus same advantages listed above (+3) (Your radius is only 4” now, but still…)
3D6K with Standard Effect still couldn’t touch anyone under your protection. 4D6K with SE would only beat it by 2, and 4D6K would hit the 60 AP limit with no Advantages. Still seems potentially game breaking for the fairly low cost of providing your entire team with all the rDEF they could possibly need with the only condition being they stay within 26 feet of Force Field Guy.

Now, let’s try it with the Rules As Written using the Usable By Others Advantage.

180 Everyone’s (Debatably) Legally Protected: FF-30PD/30ED, (60 AP), Usable Simultaneously (+1/2)(This would usually only allow you to use it on yourself and one other person, or on two people other than yourself with GM permission), x8 Targets (+3/4) (Now you can use it on 16 people, including yourself), Range, Line of Sight (+1/2) (All recipients need to be within Line of Sight to receive power, and must remain within LOS to continue to use it), Reduced END, Only to Activate (+1/4) (everyone using the FF must pay the END to use it).

Still almost certainly game breaking, but still much more limited than using AoE. Only 16 people can receive the power, they must be willing to receive it (it’s UOO Simultaneous, Not Usable as Attack), they must spend their own END on it, and they must stay within his LOS (presumably in front of him).

60 Everyone’s Slightly Less (Debatably) Legally Protected: FF-10PD/10ED (20AP), Plus same advantages as above (+3)
While these two builds are closer to being book legal, most GM’s with a lick of sense would probably consider them over powered and potentially game breaking, unless they fit the feel and abilities of a very specific campaign. There is a reason why Usable On Others has a “Stop Sign” in the book, and there’s a reason why Force Fields are specifically mentioned in the “The Dangers Of Usable On Others” section of the rules. It’s a game breaker, and using AoE instead of UOO makes it, IMO, even more so. It’s something most GMs simply would not allow. If you would, great, Hero is flexible that way. You’re allowed to change anything you want. But if you ever game with anyone else, things like that probably won’t fly. They probably won’t even flutter around limply.

In the case of the OP, since it will be limited by being a spell in a specific setting it may not be as horribly game breaking. Protective spells are common in fantasy games and the fantasy genre in general, but if you have 60 point VPP either the AoE or UOO versions would make the party all but invincible against common, non-magical, melee weapons (Great Sword, Battle Axe, and Spear are all 2d6k +STR above Required STR Min). Aid or Succor to PD and ED (or maybe DCV, is that legal?) or even a modified Transform, would seem to be much more “book legal”. While you don’t have to use “book legal” builds, they are more likely to get GM approval, they tend to be more balancing, and generally transfer from genre to genre, or to other groups of gamers much more easily.

P.S. What has been stated is mostly opinion, but I have attempted to logically explain that opinion and support it with examples. It seems to me such rampant amounts of “group defense” are exactly why the effect of Adjustment Powers to any sort of defense is halved. It is unbalancing and potentially game breaking. Of course players can build anything their GMs will let them get away with, and GMs can change the rules however they would like. Versatility and customization are the biggest selling point of the Hero System for a lot of people; however, it’s always wise to think through the reasons for certain rules before haphazardly labeling them as “stupid”. At the very least, consider the impact on your own game, before you cause a problem that you’ll have to go back and fix later, when the RAW would’ve accounted for the issue all along.

EDIT: For the record, I haven't double checked my math. I did this at work, not using HD. If anything is off, I'll adjust it later, but I think the examples pretty much make my point, even if I'm off by a couple of points...

[Hyper-Man]

Great synopses bigbywolfe.

A very minor quibble though. The Advantage Line Of Sight is not necessary. It's actually a built in limitation of UBO.

According to Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One page 273


BASIC RULES
The following basic rules apply to all Usable On Others powers:

Range; Line Of Sight
All Usable On Others (“UOO”) powers have No Range. This means a character has to be within HTH Combat range of (or touch) a person he wants to grant a power to. However, once he does so, the recipient can use the power without having to remain in contact with the caster; the caster just has to maintain Line Of Sight to him. A character can buy a UOO power with the Advantage Ranged, giving that power the standard Range of 5” x Active Points, but in that case he has to have Line Of Sight to a recipient to grant a power to him. (A character can substitute the Range Based On STR or Limited Range Advantages for Ranged, if he prefers.)There is also another important difference between buying Ranged or AOE for a UBO ability.


Adding Ranged means that each recipient still has to be granted the ability separately. If the recipients are not grouped together this can make the act of granting the ability to everyone take additional time.
Adding AOE allows everyone in the affected area (up to the maximum # of targets allowed by UBO) to get the ability at the same time.

[bigbywolfe]

"A character can buy a UOO power with the Advantage Ranged, giving that power the standard Range of 5” x Active Points, but in that case he has to have Line Of Sight to a recipient to grant a power to him. (A character can substitute the Range Based On STR or Limited Range Advantages for Ranged, if he prefers.)"

I was just trying to emphasize that LOS was still required even with Range being bought...



• Adding Ranged means that each recipient still has to be granted the ability separately. If the recipients are not grouped together this can make the act of granting the ability to everyone take additional time.
• Adding AOE allows everyone in the affected area (up to the maximum # of targets allowed by UBO) to get the ability at the same time.


You're right, I totally missed that point. That makes AOE even more obviously broken.

[CTaylor]

How does "Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone"? I know you have to make an attack role for each character if an AoE is selective

Thanks for answering your own question and saving me the time.

[bigbywolfe]

Thanks for answering your own question and saving me the time.

Thanks for ignoring the rest of the comment. I guess I find it funny trying to apply strict rules on an broken build that already ignores the RAW. Either way, it is still more effective, and hence more unbalancing, than trying to use the UOO method on everyone involved.

[Hyper-Man]

How does "Selective just makes it more trouble to protect everyone"? I know you have to make an attack roll for each character if an AoE is selective


Thanks for answering your own question and saving me the time.

Actually, even Aid or Succor require an attack roll to use (regardless of Range or AOE). The assumption is that the targets of beneficial effects are willing and 0 DCV as a result though. So in the case of AOE Selective the attack rolls would rarely be enforced, just the attack action (which was alread a requirement without the AOE or Selective).

[PhilFleischmann]

When discussing the best way to do something we tend to try to use the RAW.
Who's "we"? When I discuss the best way to do something, I tend to discuss the best way to do something.


This is not because we have to, but because if everyone posted all of their responses based entirely on a myriad of house rules then nothing would ever get accurately communicated. Plus, stating a rule is "stupid" is fine if it's an opinion, not so much if it's stated as a fact to support an argument. It borders on argumentative without supporting your take on the matter.
First, it is a gross exaggeration to call it a "myriad" of house rules. It's really only one rule (call it "house" if you must): common sense - the core principle of the game that says you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. And it is an absolute fact that paying 225% more for a power that gives you no advantage is stupid.


Edit: Almost forgot, most rules, even the ones you consider "stupid", generally have a reason. Most often the reason is either for game balance, or simply following the idea of reasoning from effect, the core principle of the Hero System. If you take a look I’m sure you’ll find a logical, “non-stupid” reason for the rule, even if you disagree with it.
I've been playing HERO since first addition, and I've never found any non-stupid reason for this rule. If you know of one, please share it with me. Rules that are actually stupid deserve to be ignored. I'm the player/GM. I'm the customer. And so is the OP.

[CTaylor]

Actually, even Aid or Succor require an attack roll to use (regardless of Range or AOE).

Right, but Force Field and Armor do not. Rolling to hit every target you want is more of a hassle than not doing so.

[Hyper-Man]

Right, but Force Field and Armor do not. Rolling to hit every target you want is more of a hassle than not doing so.

Again, No.

From the 5e FAQ (http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=Hero+System+Fifth+Edition&section=&keywords=ubo+attack&dateString=):


What actions and rolls, if any, are required to grant a Usable By Others power, to change it from one character to another, or to remove it from a character to whom it was granted?

Granting a UBO power is an Attack Action, though the GM may, in his discretion, change it to a Zero-Phase Action if the character grants the power to himself only. Changing the power from one character to another is an Attack Action. Granting the power requires an Attack Roll, but you can assume the roll automatically succeeds if the target wants the power (as a character granting a power to himself always would, presumably). Removing the granted power from the character to whom it was given is a Zero-Phase Action; the removal occurs automatically, and no Attack Roll is required.

[Hugh Neilson]

First, it is a gross exaggeration to call it a "myriad" of house rules. It's really only one rule (call it "house" if you must): common sense - the core principle of the game that says you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. And it is an absolute fact that paying 225% more for a power that gives you no advantage is stupid.

Emphasized. If someone was able to somehow buy an 18d6 unlimited Energy Blast for 40 points, we'd immediately ban the construct because it's clearly unbalanced to get a 90 point power for 40 points.

Why are we OK allowing someone to pay 225% the cost of the actual ability, but not OK allowing someone to pay the reciprocal? "You don't save points unless you're actually restricted", in its many forms, is a mantra we all tend to chant. We should be equally eager to chant "You don't pay points unless you get a benefit".

[bigbywolfe]

First, it is a gross exaggeration to call it a "myriad" of house rules. It's really only one rule (call it "house" if you must): common sense - the core principle of the game that says you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get. And it is an absolute fact that paying 225% more for a power that gives you no advantage is stupid.



225%. Sounds like a lot. In reality, it’s not very much at all. +2.25 worth of advantages to make a self only power usable for quite a number of people is not overpriced. Using AoE as you suggest, one character could buy the defense for an entire party. With 3 players (let’s just ignore any NPCs that need protection) either 60 point build I made as examples would cost the same as each player buying 10PD/10ED themselves, without all the limitations. Doesn’t look unbalancing, does it? But with 6 players, the whole team is now getting all the rDEF they will probably need, for half the cost of them buying it individually. Plus it can be used on NPCs. And you’re complaining that this costs too much? Being able to us a self-only power on anyone in a given area (AoE version), or even only on x8 the number of people (with the UOO mode)l is easily a +2.25 set of advantages, if not much, much more. How is that arguably “no advantage”? I kind of feel like the argument is, “I could only use this power on myself, now I can use it on anyone! Man, I spent a lot of points for no good reason.”



I've been playing HERO since first addition, and I've never found any non-stupid reason for this rule. If you know of one, please share it with me. Rules that are actually stupid deserve to be ignored. I'm the player/GM. I'm the customer. And so is the OP.

The way you are suggesting the build would be obviously abusive in many if not most situations. Heck, the way I built it, which is closer to book legal (if you include glossing over the “this may be unbalancing warning” and a specific “this basically is unbalancing if you use it with Defensive Self Only Powers warning” as being book legal) is obviously risking massive abuse. Now if you, as GM, have never had an issue with it, good for you. I, however, would argue that a build being basically abusive off the bat, unless massive limitations are put on it, as a “non-stupid” reason for a rule. “Rules that are actually stupid deserve to be ignored.” You haven’t established that it is stupid. You say it’s overpriced, but ignore, or don’t refute evidence that it is either underpriced, highly abusive/over-powering, or both. “I'm the player/GM. I'm the customer. And so is the OP.” No one is arguing that, and no one is arguing your (or the OP’s) right to completely disregard every rule in the book, for any reason. But part of communication is generally addressing facts and explaining opinions, something that I feel I’ve done with examples and thorough (I hope) explanations. I’m not a psycho rule lawyer, I just happen to agree with them in this case. Rule of thumb to keep in mind: If there are two ways to build the exact same effect the more expensive is usually correct (though you may feel this is a “stupid” rule, in which case it will be ignored anyway).

Just had another thought as I was about to post. Defense in the Hero System is generally always cheaper than the attack. I mean, 6 rDEF bought with a FF is 6 points, versus 6 BODY (1d6K maxed, or 2d6K: standard affect) would cost 15-30 points. I believe one of the reasons the book puts so many warnings on the UOO defense, (or any other form of sharing defense) is because the established defenses are already less than half the cost of the related attacks. Adding the ability to share personal defense might make it cost more for one person, but makes defense, in and of it self, massively cheaper for a group. If that isn’t a convincing argument for game balance, then I’m not sure you’ll accept anything as “not-stupid”.



A common use of the term is in role-playing games to signify a deviation of game play from the official rules. The usage of house rules is encouraged in a number of official game materials, as a way to personalize the game. Many other games do not explicitly encourage house rules, although house rules are commonly used in casual settings. Games that are played in tournaments typically have very explicit official tournament rules that obviate the need for house rules. The anime-based RPG Mekton refers to house rules as "changing the laws of physics."

I’m not calling it a house rule. That’s what a blatant deviation from the rules is. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just what it is. Not sure what the “(call it "house" if you must)” is about.

[CTaylor]

Granting the power requires an Attack Roll, but you can assume the roll automatically succeeds if the target wants the power

I guess I figured that since the rules state that you always succeed a roll was uneccessary, whereas a roll is specifically required for selective effect AEs. Silly me :)

And I can't figure out how Phil thinks buying AE with selective is more expensive than buying AE with usable by one other. Where's the cost savings, am I missing something?

[bigbywolfe]

He's saying you can buy AoE without buying any of the Usable On Others advantages; hence, the disagreement. I’d argue that even using UOO is massively over-effective and underpriced, which is why Defensive powers are usually not shared, at least not without a very careful review from your GM and an understanding that it probably won’t be accepted in any “official” game or even with other groups of gamers.

[Hugh Neilson]

He's saying you can buy AoE without buying any of the Usable On Others advantages; hence, the disagreement. I’d argue that even using UOO is massively over-effective and underpriced, which is why Defensive powers are usually not shared, at least not without a very careful review from your GM and an understanding that it probably won’t be accepted in any “official” game or even with other groups of gamers.

I had an armored character a few years back that had a Force Field Usable as an Attack (ie he controlled its use on targets), but this was a pretty unusual construct. It lacked Range, so augmenting teammate defenses was impossible. It was also fairly low powered (maybe 5/5 or so). He used it primarily for "soft target" protection, but he'd also use it to augment the defenses of a low-powered opponent when he struck the target, to KO without serious injury.

A lot depends on genre and power build. The concept of a group of five characters who each has, say, a 5 PD/5 ED Force Field they can routinely use to augment the whole team's defenses is pretty out there for a Supers game. A protective spell that benefits allies as well as the caster seems a reasonable Fantasy construct, though.

[CTaylor]

Hm, ok I was thinking in terms of a force field you put around your friends (Susan Storm style) more than a magic buff, but you would need a lot of fancy UOO stuff to make that work.

This discussion brings up yet again the room in the Hero system for a power based on Aid that can grant powers to people they don't already have.

[bigbywolfe]

Susan Storm style "force fields" would be Force Walls in game terms. You can't attack through them, which the OP specifically mentions. That's something that I've seen get confused a lot; game Powers and their effect vs common usage of terms.

[Hyper-Man]

Hm, ok I was thinking in terms of a force field you put around your friends (Susan Storm style) more than a magic buff, but you would need a lot of fancy UOO stuff to make that work.

This discussion brings up yet again the room in the Hero system for a power based on Aid that can grant powers to people they don't already have.

The mechanics to do this already exist without creating a new adjustment power..

They are called Usable By Other and Differing Modifiers.

from page 276 ■ Character Creation: Power Modifiers Hero System 5th Edition, Revised


DIFFERING MODIFIERS
Sometimes a character wants to create a Usable On Others powers that has different Power Modifiers from the Modifi ers on the power the recipient gains. For example, Arkelos’s spell has the Limitations Gestures, Incantations, Requires A Magic Roll, and Focus (OAF - Magic Wand). But characters who get to fly by means of this power aren’t subject to any of those Limitations; they only apply to the casting of the spell that grants the power to fly.

To create such an ability, a character must first determine how to create the power as the recipient will use it, with all appropriate Advantages and Limitations (this does not include the Usable On Others Advantage unless you want the recipient to be able to grant the power to others). For example, to re-do Arkelos’s basic spell in a better fashion, he buys Flight 10” (20 Active Points), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -½) (total cost: 13 points). He does not apply Usable On Others or the Limitations listed above, because the power as the recipient will use it does not involve them. Similarly, the Limitations on the power do not apply to the character when he grants the power to the recipient.

After the character builds the power as the recipient will use it, the Real Cost of the power becomes the Base Cost of the ability to grant it to other characters. The character then applies the appropriate Advantages and Limitations (including UOO); these affect the grant of power, but not the recipient’s ability to use the power.

[CTaylor]

Yeah. And a power that grants people powers would be more elegant and much easier to use. Plus it would have aspects that UOO does not have (fire and forget, fading effect, etc).

You aren't the only person here with a set of rules and experience playing the game, just so you know.


Susan Storm style "force fields" would be Force Walls in game terms.

... we are talking about Hero rules here, right? Where people build things the way they want, and there are a dozen answers to any question?

In any case, Sue has in the past opened her force fields so people can fire out of them while not losing any protection. And I'm sure without too great an effort you can generalize a bit more and understand my point: a field extended to protect others rather than putting suits of armor on people they wear around.

[Hyper-Man]

Yeah. And a power that grants people powers would be more elegant and much easier to use. Plus it would have aspects that UOO does not have (fire and forget, fading effect, etc).

You aren't the only person here with a set of rules and experience playing the game, just so you know.



... we are talking about Hero rules here, right? Where people build things the way they want, and there are a dozen answers to any question?

In any case, Sue has in the past opened her force fields so people can fire out of them while not losing any protection. And I'm sure without too great an effort you can generalize a bit more and understand my point: a field extended to protect others rather than putting suits of armor on people they wear around.

So, do you have an suggestion on how to construct this "power that grants people powers" based on Aid that would replace UBO?

Or is this just a situation where players just "build things the way they want" and if it gets GM approval just move on?

[CTaylor]

Not replace, be in addition to, as a separate choice. The mechanic would be different, so it would give another

In my opinion using the Aid structure (banning the advantage that lets you apply adjustment powers to more than one power at a time for this power) would be a good starting place. Call it "Bestow" or what have you. There is a lot of discussion of it in the 6th edition suggestions area, go ahead and check it out.

I suggest that you probably know what I mean by "build things the way you want" because its a standard of Hero that's been used for almost 30 years now. You know, you pick the powers and the build and define it how you choose to. Not exactly a radical concept.

[Rapier]

You also want to keep an eye on the possible effect.

Buffs (aka Aids an UBOs) can be sneaky. Sure, everyone is running about the same level of DEF, but suddenly that Aid ensures that no one is taking ANY damage.

By using FF: UBO and increasing the selective radius to be useful (probably the most straight forward and logical construct) you are ensuring that the power won't be in use very long. Burning an extra 6 or 8 END per phase is going to seriously limit the amount of time this would be in effect.

As long as there isn't a handy END Reserve.

[PhilFleischmann]

225%. Sounds like a lot.
My mistake. I should have written "125% more" or just "225%" and left off the word "more". In any event, you seem to have understood (at least that part) of what I meant. AOE + Selective is a total of +1.25 Advantage, hence the +125%.


In reality, it’s not very much at all. +2.25 worth of advantages to make a self only power usable for quite a number of people is not overpriced.
I never claimed that it was overpriced. For 63 Active points, you can have +14/14 FF foronly your allies in a 3" radius, that costs you 6 END per phase. That seems about right to me. Sure, it's a lot of defence, but they have to stay within 3" of you. That usually won't cut it for most HERO System combat's I've seen. There's usually a lot of moving around, especially with speedsters, flyers, and teleporters. Even bricks are usually going to need to be more maneuverable than that.


And you’re complaining that this costs too much?
No, I'm not.


Being able to us a self-only power on anyone in a given area (AoE version), or even only on x8 the number of people (with the UOO mode)l is easily a +2.25 set of advantages, if not much, much more. How is that arguably “no advantage”? I kind of feel like the argument is, “I could only use this power on myself, now I can use it on anyone! Man, I spent a lot of points for no good reason.”
I didn't say it was "no advantage". IIRC, it was CTaylor who said it would be no advantage, because (in his interpretation) AOE would have no effect on a self-only power. I say that it would be precisely the advantage you're paying for: Area of Effect - take a power that affects one target, and cause it to affect all targets in an area. That's precisely what I'm doing. It fits with the rules of what AOE is, and it fits with the principle of YGWYPFAYPFWYG.


The way you are suggesting the build would be obviously abusive in many if not most situations.
How so? It's not obvious to me. As soon as someone steps out of the 3" radius, they're no longer protected. As soon as the guy with the power is knocked out or stunned, the power shuts off, and no one is protected. Suppose we want to remedy these situations. We'll need 0 END, Persistant, and Extended Area. Let's call it three levels of Extended Area, just to the numbers come out easier. Now the total Advantage is +1 (AOE), +3/4 (Extended Area), +1/4 (Selective), +1/2 (0 END), +1/2 (Persistant) = +3. Now, for 64 points, we can have a +8/8 FF in a 24" Radius. That's not all that much in a game where 64-point defenses are allowed.


I, however, would argue that a build being basically abusive off the bat,
So go ahead and make the argument. Just asserting that it's abusive doesn't convince me.


“Rules that are actually stupid deserve to be ignored.” You haven’t established that it is stupid.
Yes, I have, but perhaps you misunderstood what I was calling "stupid". It was specifically the idea that AOE wouldn't do anything if applied to Force Field. Paying for something and getting nothing is indeed stupid.


You say it’s overpriced,
No, I don't.


Just had another thought as I was about to post. Defense in the Hero System is generally always cheaper than the attack. I mean, 6 rDEF bought with a FF is 6 points, versus 6 BODY (1d6K maxed, or 2d6K: standard affect) would cost 15-30 points. I believe one of the reasons the book puts so many warnings on the UOO defense, (or any other form of sharing defense) is because the established defenses are already [B]less than half the cost of the related attacks. Adding the ability to share personal defense might make it cost more for one person, but makes defense, in and of it self, massively cheaper for a group. If that isn’t a convincing argument for game balance, then I’m not sure you’ll accept anything as “not-stupid”.
That's fine. So let's assume a typical campaign with 60 AP attack powers. That would mean about 30-point defense powers, the ones I mentioned above would be about 7 PD/7 ED FF in a 2" radius, costing 3 END/phase, or 4 PD/4 ED in about a 12" radius, persistant. Not a whole lot. Neither seems particularly abusive to me. And remember that anyone who steps (flies, teleports) out of the radius is not protected.


I’m not calling it a house rule. That’s what a blatant deviation from the rules is. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just what it is. Not sure what the “(call it "house" if you must)” is about.
I don't see it as a blatant devaition from the rules. I see it as using the rules exactly as written. I'm using AOE in a consistant and straight-forward way. And I'm keeping to the principle of the system that says, You Get What You Pay For, And You Pay For What You Get.

[schir1964]

I'll bring this up again.

W. Jason Allen wrote an article in Digital Hero on how a GM may allow Area Of Effect to be applied to the Force Field power. It covers how it would work and various pitfalls to look out for.

So the idea shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Check out the Article and see if it is applicable to what is being attempted.

Corrected: Author Corrected per Hyper-Man (thanks).

- Christopher Mullins

[Hyper-Man]

I'll bring this up again.

Steve Long wrote an article in Digital Hero on how a GM may allow Area Of Effect to be applied to the Force Field power. It covers how it would work and various pitfalls to look out for.

So the idea shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Check out the Article and see if it is applicable to what is being attempted.

- Christopher Mullins

Correction, Steve did not write the article (unless it was a different article from a later issue).

It's in DIGITAL HERO #10 (published May 2003)
page 53


Force Fields Enhanced by W. Jason AllenAnd it has the following in the sidebar:


EDITOR’S NOTE
The contents of this article are not “official” HERO System rules.It basically treats the interaction of AOE with Force Field as a way to produce a 'Force Wall-like' effect that can be pierced without bringing the whole effect down (as it would a regular Force Wall).

The only major issue I see with the article is that it does not say anything about the effects of attacks by anyone inside the AOE FF vs. targets outside. It's not clear at all whether such attacks would pierce the FF and allow attacks from the outside in through the affected section.

I also find the publishing date somewhat telling in that it was before that of 5er (but I am not sure if it was far enough in advance to have had any chance of being incorporated into that document had Steve chose to).

[bigbywolfe]

I gave these examples, and put forth that they were abusive. You will see that the second one is built on 60AP and gives higher rDEF and range than you said was possible on 60 points.




Let’s try this with Force Field using AoE, assuming no AP or DC caps.


180 Everyone’s Protected: FF-30PD/30ED, (60 AP), AoE Radius, (+1), Selective (+1/2), Double Radius (+1/4), Reduced END, Only to Activate (+1/4). (This would give you a 12” radius.)
Built this way, everyone on your team and any innocent NPCs within over a quarter of a football field away from you have all the rDEF they will probably ever need. Using Standard Effect it would take 10d6K to match the defense. That’s 30 Damage Classes of Killing Damage. I would see this as a potential game breaker.

Let’s assume a 60AP cap.

60 Everyone’s Slightly Less Protected: FF-10PD/10ED (20AP), plus same advantages listed above (+3) (Your radius is only 4” now, but still…)
3D6K with Standard Effect still couldn’t touch anyone under your protection. 4D6K with SE would only beat it by 2, and 4D6K would hit the 60 AP limit with no Advantages. Still seems potentially game breaking for the fairly low cost of providing your entire team with all the rDEF they could possibly need with the only condition being they stay within 26 feet of Force Field Guy.
Now, let’s try it with the Rules As Written using the Usable By Others Advantage.

180 Everyone’s (Debatably) Legally Protected: FF-30PD/30ED, (60 AP), Usable Simultaneously (+1/2)(This would usually only allow you to use it on yourself and one other person, or on two people other than yourself with GM permission), x8 Targets (+3/4) (Now you can use it on 16 people, including yourself), Range, Line of Sight (+1/2) (All recipients need to be within Line of Sight to receive power, and must remain within LOS to continue to use it), Reduced END, Only to Activate (+1/4) (everyone using the FF must pay the END to use it).

Still almost certainly game breaking, but still much more limited than using AoE. Only 16 people can receive the power, they must be willing to receive it (it’s UOO Simultaneous, Not Usable as Attack), they must spend their own END on it, and they must stay within his LOS (presumably in front of him).

60 Everyone’s Slightly Less (Debatably) Legally Protected: FF-10PD/10ED (20AP), Plus same advantages as above (+3)
While these two builds are closer to being book legal, most GM’s with a lick of sense would probably consider them over powered and potentially game breaking, unless they fit the feel and abilities of a very specific campaign. There is a reason why Usable On Others has a “Stop Sign” in the book, and there’s a reason why Force Fields are specifically mentioned in the “The Dangers Of Usable On Others” section of the rules. It’s a game breaker, and using AoE instead of UOO makes it, IMO, even more so. It’s something most GMs simply would not allow. If you would, great, Hero is flexible that way. You’re allowed to change anything you want. But if you ever game with anyone else, things like that probably won’t fly. They probably won’t even flutter around limply.

In the case of the OP, since it will be limited by being a spell in a specific setting it may not be as horribly game breaking. Protective spells are common in fantasy games and the fantasy genre in general, but if you have 60 point VPP either the AoE or UOO versions would make the party all but invincible against common, non-magical, melee weapons (Great Sword, Battle Axe, and Spear are all 2d6k +STR above Required STR Min). Aid or Succor to PD and ED (or maybe DCV, is that legal?) or even a modified Transform, would seem to be much more “book legal”. While you don’t have to use “book legal” builds, they are more likely to get GM approval, they tend to be more balancing, and generally transfer from genre to genre, or to other groups of gamers much more easily.

P.S. What has been stated is mostly opinion, but I have attempted to logically explain that opinion and support it with examples. It seems to me such rampant amounts of “group defense” are exactly why the effect of Adjustment Powers to any sort of defense is halved. It is unbalancing and potentially game breaking. Of course players can build anything their GMs will let them get away with, and GMs can change the rules however they would like. Versatility and customization are the biggest selling point of the Hero System for a lot of people; however, it’s always wise to think through the reasons for certain rules before haphazardly labeling them as “stupid”. At the very least, consider the impact on your own game, before you cause a problem that you’ll have to go back and fix later, when the RAW would’ve accounted for the issue all along.

EDIT: For the record, I haven't double checked my math. I did this at work, not using HD. If anything is off, I'll adjust it later, but I think the examples pretty much make my point, even if I'm off by a couple of points...

[bigbywolfe]

Italics added by me.

From the HERO Games Rules FAQ:

If a character has a Constant power that’s Self Only (like Force Field or a Movement Power), can he apply Area Of Effect to it to “give” other people around him the Power?
No; to achieve that effect, he must use Usable By Other, with the special effect being “my power extends to those near me.” However, in some situations, based on special effects and other considerations, a GM might allow Area Of Effect Constant Self Only Powers.


Considering Defensive powers are the cheapest powers in the game, I doubt many GMs would allow it for defense unless extremely carefully scrutinized, if at all. I think common and dramatic sense would dictate that one character probably should not be able to purchase most of the defense for an entire group. If there are cases where that would fit the tone and feel of the game, fine. I think it’s important to note, when advising someone on a “how to do that thread”, however, that it is not strictly rules legal (hence, a house rule), it may be unbalancing (which they should know if they’ve read the book), and that many GMs probably won’t allow the build.

[Hugh Neilson]

To add to Phil's comments, that AoE Selective arguably requires you to roll to hit each character you wish to affect. There is no need to roll to hit the center hex since the Force Field has no range, but Selective adds the requirement to make an attack roll against every target in the area.

The rules note that a Constant power does not permit changing the targets without decativating the power and using it again (meaning you have to hit all your targets again) although you can attempt to hit someone who enters the area as an Attack roll that takes no time.

Will all the other PC's lower thiir DCV to 0 when you want to add a Force Field?

Hmmm...maybe a Rules question to clear this up.

[Hyper-Man]

Hugh,

would you require a 'to hit roll' for the following power to be used (in a combat situation) if the PC says "Gather all injured around me!"?

21 Be Healed My Friends!: Healing BODY 2d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Hour; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (80 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4) 7

Healing is considered an attack action but does not require an attack roll per the FAQ (http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=healing+attack&dateString=):



Does Healing require an Attack Roll, or an Attack Action?

Healing does not require an Attack Roll (unless, for some reason, the target of the Healing wants to avoid it — as, perhaps, might some undead that took “damage” from being Healed). Using it does constitute an Attack Action, however. Regeneration is an exception because of the special way it functions, but ordinary Healing with the Self Only Limitation would still require an Attack Action.



Selective is just allowing the caster to NOT heal enemies who would otherwise be in range of the AOE.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hugh,

would you require a 'to hit roll' for the following power to be used (in a combat situation) if the PC says "Gather all injured around me!"?

21 Be Healed My Friends!: Healing BODY 2d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Hour; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (80 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4) 7

Healing is considered an attack action but does not require an attack roll per the FAQ (http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=healing+attack&dateString=):

Selective is just allowing the caster to NOT heal enemies who would otherwise be in range of the AOE.

Based on Steve's answer to my rule question, yes I would require a roll to hit. All AoE abilities require a roll to hit, and even where the roll is waived,this is an attack action. All Selective AoE's require a roll to hit the desired target.

This does, however, indicate that there should be a higher Selective modifier which allows the "autohit" effect of AoE to apply to all targets selected in the range.

[Hyper-Man]

... there should be a higher Selective modifier which allows the "autohit" effect of AoE to apply to all targets selected in the range.

There is already. Just take AOE again (1 Hex Accurate) to apply to the targeting of the Selective effect.

24 Be Healed My Friends! v2: Healing BODY 2d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Hour; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Only to determine accuracy of Selective; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; Only to determine who is in range of primary effect; +1), Selective (+1/4) (90 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4) 8

There is already a precedence for adding AOE more than once to a power when combined with Megascale.

[Hyper-Man]

I goofed on the re-use advantage. It should have been 1 Turn (instead of 1 hour).

29 Be Healed My Friends! v2.1: Healing BODY 2d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Only to determine accuracy of Selective; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (8" Radius; Only to determine who is in range of primary effect; +1), Selective (+1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (110 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4) 10

[Hugh Neilson]

I goofed on the re-use advantage. It should have been 1 Turn (instead of 1 hour).

29 Be Healed My Friends! v2.1: Healing BODY 2d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Only to determine accuracy of Selective; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (8" Radius; Only to determine who is in range of primary effect; +1), Selective (+1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (110 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4) 10

I dislike tacking on that one hex area construct for two reasons. First, you still must roll to hit each hex, which may miss depending on modifiers. Second, consider the following options for the build:

27 Be Healed My Friends! v2.2 - not selective: Healing BODY 2d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; Only to determine accuracy of Non-Selective; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (8" Radius; Only to determine who is in range of primary effect; +1), Non-selective (-1/4), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (100 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4) 10

20 Be Healed My Friends! v2.3 - not selective, hits automatically: Healing BODY 2d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Continuous (+1), Area Of Effect (8" Radius; Only to determine who is in range of primary effect; +1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (75 Active Points); OAF (Holy Symbol; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4) 10

Why should it be 7 points cheaper to hit everyone in the area automatically than to have a chance at hitting, but a possibility of missing, each target in the area? 25% off for NOT having a chance to miss seems an inappropriate result at best.

[Hyper-Man]

...

Why should it be 7 points cheaper to hit everyone in the area automatically than to have a chance at hitting, but a possibility of missing, each target in the area? 25% off for NOT having a chance to miss seems an inappropriate result at best.

That 7 points depends on the GM running the game. As Steve L. pointed out in his recent answer to your question, the actual 'to hit roll' can be waived in appropriate situations. However, some GM's are stricter than others so my last version would virtually guarantee success regardless of whether or not the GM wants to require 'to hit rolls' for each and every target of the spell.

[Hugh Neilson]

That 7 points depends on the GM running the game. As Steve L. pointed out in his recent answer to your question, the actual 'to hit roll' can be waived in appropriate situations. However, some GM's are stricter than others so my last version would virtually guarantee success regardless of whether or not the GM wants to require 'to hit rolls' for each and every target of the spell.

The waiver of the To Hit roll refers, I believe, to no range AoE attacks, which cannot "miss" the hex of the user. I don't believe it refers to the targets selected using the Selective modifier (why should it - would you waive the rolls to hit in a nonselective AoE and give the character a 1/4 reduction for no change in effectiveness?)

I could see waiving the to hit roll where each target ends up with an effective DCV 3 and the "attacker" has a high enough OCV that a miss is extremely unlikely, but I note that range modifiers apply to those rolls, so a big or distant AoE has a much lower chance of hitting its targets if selective or non-selective.

[PhilFleischmann]

I gave these examples, and put forth that they were abusive. You will see that the second one is built on 60AP and gives higher rDEF and range than you said was possible on 60 points.

180 Everyone’s Protected: FF-30PD/30ED, (60 AP), AoE Radius, (+1), Selective (+1/2), Double Radius (+1/4), Reduced END, Only to Activate (+1/4). (This would give you a 12” radius.)
Built this way, everyone on your team and any innocent NPCs within over a quarter of a football field away from you have all the rDEF they will probably ever need. Using Standard Effect it would take 10d6K to match the defense. That’s 30 Damage Classes of Killing Damage. I would see this as a potential game breaker.
No. That would only be to match the defense with BODY. 30 DCs of Killing damage would do about 90 STUN, that's 60 through the Force Fields of each one of these teammates and innocent NPCs. (And since the power isn't Persistant, if the guy supplying the FF is stunned or KOed, all the FFs go down.)

To "match the defense" only requires 10d6 Normal, with Standard Effect - a 50-point power.

(And BTW, Selective is only +1/4, so this power is 165 active points.) For 165, you could buy 33d6 Normal, or 11d6 Killing attack (comparing apples to apples). This puts about 69 STUN and 3 BODY through. That doesn't seem abusive to me.


Let’s assume a 60AP cap.

60 Everyone’s Slightly Less Protected: FF-10PD/10ED (20AP), plus same advantages listed above (+3) (Your radius is only 4” now, but still…)
3D6K with Standard Effect still couldn’t touch anyone under your protection. 4D6K with SE would only beat it by 2, and 4D6K would hit the 60 AP limit with no Advantages. Still seems potentially game breaking for the fairly low cost of providing your entire team with all the rDEF they could possibly need with the only condition being they stay within 26 feet of Force Field Guy.
Again, you've ignored the STUN damage. 3d6 K does about 27 STUN - that's 17 through the force field. And that's a 45-AP attack vs a 55 AP defense. Again, nothing abusive about it.

[bigbywolfe]

Thanks for addressing the examples and explaining your position.

[PhilFleischmann]

And for those of you hung up about issues of "house rules" vs. "book-legal", i refer you to the rulebook:

(I only have FREd, not 5ER, so the page numbers may be different for you.)

pp 336-338:
"8 Principles for Interpreting and Applying the HERO System rules:
...
2. All rules are subject to change. ....
...
8. ...Above all else, when you interpret the HERO System Rules, use your common sense. ...."

Also check out
"Use and Abuse of the Rules" p 343
"MetaRules of the HERO System" p 348, particularly metarules 2 and 8.

If you can have an Area Affect Attack, you ought to be able to have an Area Affect Defense.