Normal Human

[Lucius]

Second Edit: for further context

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70094

This is the original thread that this thread is a sort of response to.


Edit: I thought I should put an explanation up here.

First, this is a self-consciously absurd character. It's not a player character (for one thing an automaton can't be played) and it's not really meant to be an automaton a player could buy either. If I were running a game with the Bayang I might include something like this with more tinkering but I'd change the name - unless I'm going for a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy feel and plan to use a lot of bizarre linguistic "coincidences" for humor value.

The character exists for two reasons (well, besides being another excuse to play with my shiny new Hero Designer program.)

1. To make that point that putting Normal Characteristic Maxima on a character does not in any way, shape, or form make that character a "Normal Human" (as we usually use those words in English anyway, Bayangi doesn't count.)

2. To demonstrate that the Normal Characteristic Maxima Disadvantage, or rule if it's used universally, doesn't prevent the creation of weird, unbalanced, or munchkin characters - although the "florist friars" do a better job of that (see below, I'm going to post something about them.)



Normal Human
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
17/47 STR -8 12- / 18- Lift 263.9kg/16.9tons; 3d6/9d6 [1/4]
23 DEX 3 14- OCV: 8/DCV: 8
0 CON -20 9-
10 BODY 0 11-
28 INT 18 15- PER Roll 15-
0 EGO 0 Automaton
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
0 COM -5 9-

3/10 PD 6 Total: 3/10 PD (3/6 rPD)
3/10 ED 9 Total: 3/10 ED (3/6 rED)
4 SPD 7 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
0 REC -16
0 END 0
Total Characteristic Cost: -23

Movement:
Flight: 17"/68"

Cost Powers END
45 Normal Human: Automaton (Takes No STUN (loses abilities when takes BODY))
5 Weapon Bearing Tentacles: Extra Limbs (6)
15 Normal Human: Damage Resistance (5 PD/5 ED)
13 +15 STR, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4) (19 Active Points); Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2)
16 +12 DEX, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+0) (36 Active Points); Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2), Requires A Tactics Skill Roll (-1/2), Linked (STR; -1/4)
1 Normal Human durability: Life Support (Longevity: 200 Years)
Normal Human Senses
12 1) High Range Radio Perception (Radio Group)
3 2) Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group)
5 3) Nightvision
3 4) Bump Of Direction
10 5) Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees) with Sight Group
33 Normal Human Powers: Elemental Control, 66-point powers
27 1) Small but Deadly: Shrinking (0.1875 m tall, 0.0977 kg mass, -6 PER Rolls to perceive character, +6 DCV, takes +9" KB), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (67 Active Points); No Growth Momentum (-1/4)
34 2) Advanced Materiels: Density Increase (3,200 kg mass, +30 STR, +6 PD/ED, -6" KB), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (67 Active Points)
33 3) Flight 17", Position Shift, x4 Noncombat, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4), No Turn Mode (+1/4) (66 Active Points) [1 cc]
Weapons (These foci are "personal" and will self-destruct if anyone but a Bayang or Bayangi robot attempts to utilize them)
13 1) Assorted Weapons: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6-1 (d6 - 1 / 1d6+1 w/STR), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Any Technology available ; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Variable Advantage (+1 1/2 Advantages; +3) (47 Active Points); Fuel Dependent (fuel is Common; must refuel Once per 6 Hours; -1), OAF Durable (-1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2)
15 2) Multiple Weapons: 8 (15 Active Points)
42 3) Energy Shield Generator: (Total: 102 Active Cost, 42 Real Cost) Life Support (Immunity All terrestrial poisons and chemical warfare agents; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases and biowarfare agents; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing) (39 Active Points); Fuel Dependent (fuel is Very Common; must refuel Once per 6 Hours; -3/4), OIF Durable (-1/2) (Real Cost: 17) plus Force Field (1 PD/1 ED/1 Mental Defense/1 Power Defense) (Protect Carried Items), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 6 Hours (+1/4), Hardened (+1/4) (63 Active Points); OIF Durable (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Ablative BODY Only (-1/2) (Real Cost: 25) [1 cc]
15 4) Multiple Generators: 8 (15 Active Points)

Skills
3 Tactics 15-
3 Fast Draw 14-
3 Stealth 14-
3 Concealment 15-
8 Defense Maneuver I-III
3 Security Systems 15-
3 Shadowing 15-
3 Tracking 15-

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 369
Total Cost: 346

200+ Disadvantages
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
10 Age: 60+ (Average age of Normal Humans is usually over 100 Earth years - built to last)
15 Reputation: Run! It's a Normal Human!, 14- (Extreme; Known Only To A Small Group)
15 Distinctive Features: The Normal Human is a metallic disc or saucer shaped flying object, circular, with a dome on one side (usually the side facing "up" when in a gravity well) containing sensors and a weapons turret on the other side (that is, the side that is usually the "bottom.") To either side of the sensor dome are a pair of insect like mechanical arms, and the turret sprouts a half dozen powerful extendible metal "tentacles." (Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
30 Enraged: In combat with pre-programmed target (Common), go 14-, recover 8-
30 Self destruct sequence Susceptibility: Any attempt to reprogram, control, or otherwise tamper with either software or hardware (Can also be triggered remotely by the Bayang) 3d6 damage per Segment (Uncommon)
10 Vulnerability: 2 x Effect Double damage or effect from electrical or magnetic attacks (Uncommon)
10 Physical Limitation: Can only be repaired by Bayang who know the passcodes; other attempts to repair trigger self-destruct sequence (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing)
10 Physical Limitation: Cannot Speak (Infrequently, Greatly Impairing)

Total Disadvantage Points: 346

Background/History: The Bayang are masters of robotics and have a number of robot types specialized for assassination or combat. In their native language, "Normal" means "dangerous or damaging" and "Human," from roots meaning "Moves by itself," means a robot. "Normal Human" could be translated as "Killer Robot" or "Automated Weapon."

Personality/Motivation: This particular Normal Human is an assassin, or hunter/killer robot.

Quote: Ominous Hummmmmmmmm...........

Powers/Tactics: Because of differences in Bayang physiology and culture their development of missile weapons was retarded. Due to this bias against ranged attacks, even their Normal Humans tend to be designed to attack "close up" rather than having ranged weapons. The standard weapon is a cylinder capable of projecting a force field in the form of a force blade, bludgeon, or other melee type weapon, although heat, cold, short range radioactive bursts, or other technological effects are possible.

Appearance: Utterly inhuman. Specifically, the Normal Human is a metallic disc or saucer shaped flying object, circular, with a dome on one side (usually the side facing "up" when in a gravity well) containing sensors and a weapons turret on the other side (that is, the side that is usually the "bottom.") To either side of the sensor dome are a pair of insect like mechanical arms, and the turret sprouts a half dozen powerful extendible metal "tentacles."

Campaign Use: Demonstrating the absurdity of Normal Characteristic Maxima, especially as a benchmark for defining "Normal Human." Demonstrates the absurdity of the Age Disadvantage too. Also serves as an example of the kind of robot the Bayang might use, aside from their robot vehicles.

Lucius Alexander

Copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[steamteck]

yeah. yeah. You made your point and managed to reveal your inner munchkin and perversity.. I think this is much more what I want anyway

quote=prestidigitator;1764685]

The original idea presented in this thread does interest me because it changes NCM from being this player-limiting meta-Disadvantage into a true situational limitation that would affect the actual character (I would go with incorporating heroic situational rules instead of, not in addition to Characteristics limits myself). I think I'd have to consider carefully the details of what heroic rules I'd really want to partially utilize in any particular game (as Sean points out), and I'd also have to think carefully about how many points it would be worth. Maybe Physical Limitations would be easier to use for that instead of completely redoing NCM. I don't know.

[/quote]

[steamteck]

yeah. yeah. You made your point and managed to reveal your inner munchkin and perversity.. I think this is much more what I want anyway although I'd definitely include heroic characteristic limits

quote=prestidigitator;1764685]

The original idea presented in this thread does interest me because it changes NCM from being this player-limiting meta-Disadvantage into a true situational limitation that would affect the actual character (I would go with incorporating heroic situational rules instead of, not in addition to Characteristics limits myself). I think I'd have to consider carefully the details of what heroic rules I'd really want to partially utilize in any particular game (as Sean points out), and I'd also have to think carefully about how many points it would be worth. Maybe Physical Limitations would be easier to use for that instead of completely redoing NCM. I don't know.

[/quote]

[Lucius]

yeah. yeah. You made your point and managed to reveal your inner munchkin and perversity..

And I've been having fun playing around with Hero Designer, now that I finally bought it.

I want to thank you for inspiring this particular design, it would probably never have happened without you.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary doesn't think Lucius Alexander's perversity was ever in question....

[jtelson]

Interesting, it never would have occured to me to abuse a disad. Now I can call my 14d6 RKA a transport people to happy fun dimension ray and still keep a code against killing.

[jtelson]

I'm sorry that was needlessly snarky

[Lucius]

Interesting, it never would have occured to me to abuse a disad. Now I can call my 14d6 RKA a transport people to happy fun dimension ray and still keep a code against killing.

The Disadvantage acts to limit the purchase of certain characteristics by increasing the cost. I don't see where this is abusing it any more than any other character that takes the Disad and fails to buy characteristics over the limit.

If you want a Killing Attack and a Code Against Killing, take the Killing Attack as Stun Only so that it can't actually kill anyone.

If you want a Killing Attack that you can describe as "transport people to happy fun dimension" you'd need an "All or nothing" limit on it so that people are either transported or not - it wouldn't make sense in that case for the ability to be able to injure people. For that matter I'm not entirely sure it would make sense even then - someone with Resurrection would therefore be able to find a way back from the happy fun dimension. Whether this would actually be compatible with a Code Against Killing is something I'm not sure of either....I think sending someone away to a place they can never return from is psychologically close to killing them, whether it's bought as a Killing Attack or as Extradimensional Movement Usable as Attack.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary reminds me that my ride is waiting....

[Lucius]

I'm sorry that was needlessly snarky

I caught this before I left.

Don't feel too bad, it's a pretty absurd character and I know it.

LA
p

[steamteck]

And I've been having fun playing around with Hero Designer, now that I finally bought it.

I want to thank you for inspiring this particular design, it would probably never have happened without you.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary doesn't think Lucius Alexander's perversity was ever in question....


Um. you're welcome??????

[Sean Waters]

Toclaphane?

[Lucius]

An old example reposted, and a new analogy. Or, why the Normal Characteristic Maxima rule is like the Flintstone car.


Say I am creating a pair of flower-selling monks in a heroic game with 75 base points and up to 75 disadvantages. Brother Rose has a Dex of 20 (costs 30) and spends 50 pts on SPD (10 pts ups it to 4, the "Max," and another 40 ups it to 6.) That costs 80 pts, and if he sells off 3" Running for -6 pts he still has a ground speed half again a normal Human's, and has all his points from Disads to pay for botany, flower arranging, and what the heck, he'll study some canon law too. His sidekick Brother Orchid has a STR of 40 costing 50 pts, and uses some disad points to buy his flowery skills, and still comes in as a "weaker than character" DNPC.

Now, is any sane Game Operations Director going to permit this pair? No, they will probably change their names to Brother Ragweed and Brother Crabgrass and tell the player to toss them on the compost pile. But that is exactly what they would have had to do if there WERE no "Normal Characteristic Maxima," except that the outrageous characteristics would have been an 8 SPD and a 60 STR.

The message to Game Operation Directors is - You, and only you, can prevent florist friars. The Characteristic Maxima rule can't do it for you. And if it doesn't, what good is it?


You remember the "car" on the Flinststones - the family piles in, then they all put their feet on the ground and start running. The car doesn't do any of the work for them and meanwhile they have to lug around this wood and stone contraption.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary goes "shhh...don't mention the Flintstones car too loudly or someone we know will be wanting points for it...."

[Utech]

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise, not from me.

[Lucius]

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise, not from me.

If a character actually has spent at least 20 extra points on characteristics due to having No Characteristic Maxima, would you say that the character has been disadvantaged?

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary stops and smells the roses

[Utech]

If a character actually has spent at least 20 extra points on characteristics due to having No Characteristic Maxima, would you say that the character has been disadvantaged?

Probably. As always, context is important.

[jtelson]

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise, not from me.

In any game where PCs and Notable NPCs tend to or are expected to have Characteristics above the NCM limits it disadvantages the Player (Also I suppose the Character; as much as anything can).

[Hugh Neilson]

Like all Disadvantages NCM is a perfectly useful Disadvantage if (and only if) it disadvantages the character. Your build above would not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Leastwise, not from me.


If a character actually has spent at least 20 extra points on characteristics due to having No Characteristic Maxima, would you say that the character has been disadvantaged?

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary stops and smells the roses

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40, or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage!

[Lucius]

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40, or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage!

I guess in a way the Florist Friars are anti-munchkin. Instead of dodging away from the consequences of a Disadvantage, they charge into it head on.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary adds that they charge into it at high speed and full strength, so to speak.

[Utech]

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40, or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage!
I was referring to the first character posted. Apologies for not being more clear.

[Zeropoint]

In the unlikely event that I actually run a game, NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?

[Utech]

In the unlikely event that I actually run a game, NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?
You.

[Greywind]

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole, if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?

[The Dude]

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole, if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?

That's mighty close to pondering the un-ponderable.

[Utech]

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole, if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?
A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.

[jtelson]

A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.

It does disadvantage your character so no worries.

[Hugh Neilson]

This seems to sum up the debate. When have you ever seen a character take NCM if they have significant stats in excess of the breakpoints? While Utech suggests the disad can only be applied if the character has stats in excess of the NCM limits, I believe most or all published examples of characters with the 20 point disadvantage do not have stats over the limit, or have very small amounts over the breakpoint.

jtelson, on the other hand, believes the character is disadvantaged by lacking the potential to buy up those abilities limited by NCM without paying double. Yet only characters not taking advantage of that potential, or using a workaround, ever take the disadvantage.

In addition to characters who don't have stats over the NCM limit, characters can use approaches like the Defender Exploit (which most indicate they would not allow - often right after arguing we should use the rules as written). More subtle workarounds exist - Flight, No Turn Mode, Only on a Flat Surface/only in water (it's not running/swimming so it's not capped). The character pays double for Running, Usable as Flight, but not for Flight, Usable as Running. Armor or Force Field instead of PD, ED and Damage Resistance.

The confusion, to me, is that Normal Characteristic Maxima is the limitation. It imposes a maximum, above which the costs double. It does not make the character a "normal human". Characters who are tough (high PD/ED) seem much more like a "normal human" than one with an armored carapace or a force field, yet only PD/ED faces a cost adjustment. A strong human seems more likely than one able to spit gouts of flame or move objects with his mind. You can't run fast, but you can fly.

In my view, "these abilities cost extra" is not appropriately a disadvantage. If it is, then it should be expanded to address variances in the type of abilities, their breadth and scope ("mental powers cost double"), the ease of any workaround ("even if they have a limitation") and the impact on cost (what if they cost 50% more? 3x normal cost? cannot be purchased at all?). That would probably grant characters with NCM even more points - just bump it to "can't circumvent with limitations; can't purchase at all" if you don't have any characteristics over 20.

What's that? He's disadvantaged if he changes his mind? Let's say I have NCM 20, and I want to buy a higher STR. Once I hit 40 (cost of 40 from my starting point of 20), I'll spend 20 points buying off NCM - which costs 0 xp (I get 20 back since my STR no longer costs double) and carry on from there. Maybe instead of a "Restricted Purchase" disad suite, NCM should be replaced by a "Prespent XP" disadvantage - NCM gives me 20 points' XP spent on characteristics up front.


In the unlikely event that I actually run a game, NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?


You.


Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole, if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?


A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.


It does disadvantage your character so no worries.

[jtelson]

jtelson, on the other hand, believes the character is disadvantaged by lacking the potential to buy up those abilities limited by NCM without paying double. Yet only characters not taking advantage of that potential, or using a workaround, ever take the disadvantage.

My position is a bit more complicated than that. In a setting in which Characteristc expenditures are unbounded (or less bounded) not purchasing Characteristics to the level expected and surrendering the option to do so during character development is disadvantageous.

Only acts 2/3 of average times, is stunned more easily, pays additional points for movement (+50% for same velocity - based on lower speed), lower base skill checks, lower base CVs etc

[nexus]

My experience with NCM has been like this. I've had a few characters with it in Champions games and, over the long run, they've lagged behind. Characteristics seem to be very point efficient investments compared to skills and skill levels, particularly Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence and the NCM characters ended either being extremely focused or lagging significantly behind over the course of the games even if they didn't start that far behind. Even the more focused fell behind in performance, particularly combatwise. Speed hurt here a great deal.

IME, NCM is one of the few Disadvantages that is brought off with experience when, again, IME, most players don't buy off Disadvantages when they can get something new. I've found it to be a functional Disadvantage in play though I haven't run any sort of mathematical analysis. To continue the CAK comparison I've definitely seen it be more limiting than CAK is in more campaigns. Yes, it can be abused but so can allot of things and that's what the GM is there for.

This is assuming unbounded characteristic purchase is allowed. My game style has changed over the years and I try to keep characteristics in a more "reasonable" range NCM is less limiting in those campaigns though I still use a version of it if the PCs can expect to face opposition that isn't as restricted in characteristics

[Lucius]

How is it that a build that reduces the character's STR from 60 to 40, or his SPD from 8 to 6, not a valid disadvantage? Those florist friars are much more disadvantaged than any character I have ever seen built with the NCM disadvantage!

Only Hugh can prevent Florist Friars!

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary asks, but does he want to?

[Lucius]

In the unlikely event that I actually run a game, NCM is either not allowed, or applied to everyone for free. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from looking at their sheet, noticing that none of their characteristics are over 20, and taking NCM for free points?


You.

That's right! You can make sure that every character subject to NCM spends the extra points for Characteristics!

Only You can create Florist Friars!

Lucius Alexander

Only I can create palindromedaries

[Lucius]

Why do you have to have characteristics in excess of 20 before you can consider NCM? Depending on the group as a whole, if everyone else has stats way over 20, and you are the sole exception, why couldn't you use it?

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

Lucius Alexander

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?

[Hugh Neilson]

My experience with NCM has been like this. I've had a few characters with it in Champions games and, over the long run, they've lagged behind. Characteristics seem to be very point efficient investments compared to skills and skill levels, particularly Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence and the NCM characters ended either being extremely focused or lagging significantly behind over the course of the games even if they didn't start that far behind. Even the more focused fell behind in performance, particularly combatwise. Speed hurt here a great deal.

I'm confused by INT, as emphasized above. All it does is add to INT skills and PRE, functions which skill levels seem readily able to address.

To me, if characteristics are overly efficient, the answer is to deal with their pricing for all characters.

[jtelson]

I'm confused by INT, as emphasized above. All it does is add to INT skills and PRE, functions which skill levels seem readily able to address.

To me, if characteristics are overly efficient, the answer is to deal with their pricing for all characters.

I assume INT because a level with INT skills costs 5 points while increasing INT for a +1 with all INT skills is also 5 points plus you get a bonus to your Perception roll.

[nexus]

I assume INT because a level with INT skills costs 5 points while increasing INT for a +1 with all INT skills is also 5 points plus you get a bonus to your Perception roll.

And Int is the base for a pretty large number of skills.

[Lucius]

The Florist Friars

Brother Rose Aka ”the Flying Monk”
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]
20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 7
13 CON 6 12-
9 BODY -2 11-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
8 COM -1 11-

3/5 PD 0 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)
3/4 ED 0 Total: 3/4 ED (0/1 rED)
6 SPD 50 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
6 REC 0
26 END 0
24 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 88

Movement:
Running: 3"/6"
Flight: 3"/12"
Leaping: 2"/4"
Swimming:1"/2"

Cost Powers END
9 The Flying Monk: Flight 3", x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (22 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Conditional Power Only if already ran 3" that phase; Can only go noncombat if ran noncombat that phase (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel (Secret herbal potion) Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]
1 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow...: Armor (2 PD/1 ED) (5 Active Points); Limited Power Does not stop first pt of BOD of a Killing Attack (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Linked (The Flying Monk; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]
2 Healing Potion: Rapid Healing (5 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2)
Notes: For some reason, Brother Rose's herbal potions seem to only be able to heal himself. Unfortunately, not everyone believes that....
He's Fast!
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All, Abort; FMove
3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/5, Target Falls
3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab 2 Limbs, 25 STR holding

Skills
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Bureaucratics 12-
3 Paramedics 12-
3 Trading 12-
0 Language: English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)
3 Jack of All Trades
2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 12-
2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 12-
2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 12-
2 4) PS: Herbalist (3 Active Points) 12-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Canon Law (3 Active Points) 12-
2 2) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 12-
2 3) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 12-
2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes through the City (3 Active Points) 12-

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 62
Total Cost: 150

75+ Disadvantages
0 Normal Characteristic Maxima
5 Age: 40+
15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid 14- (Slightly Less Powerful)
15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)
5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor
5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)
5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preperations 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish)
15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

Total Disadvantage Points: 150

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.

Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.




Brother Orchid aka “Brother Ox”
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
40 STR 50 17- Lift 6400.0kg; 8d6 [8]
11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4/DCV: 4
13 CON 6 12-
10 BODY 0 11-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
8 COM -1 11-

6 PD -2 Total: 6 PD (0 rPD)
4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED (0 rED)
3 SPD 9 Phases: 4, 8, 12
11 REC 0
26 END 0
37 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 67

Movement:
Running: 5"/10"
Leaping: 4"/8"
Swimming:2"/4"

Talents
6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

Skills
3 Hoist 11-
3 Jack of All Trades
2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 11-
2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 11-
2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 11-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 11-
2 2) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 11-
2 3) KS: Monastic Traditions (worldwide) (3 Active Points) 11-
2 +1 With Grab

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 29
Total Cost: 96

50+ Disadvantages
0 Normal Characteristic Maxima
15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)
5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor
5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)
10 Psychological Limitation: Looks up to Brother Rose (Common, Moderate)

Total Disadvantage Points: 50

Background/History: Brother Orchid is actually Brother Rose's nephew, and he looks up to his uncle as a wiser and more experienced monk. But he's also read about the monastic and ascetic traditions of other cultures, and is not above sometimes mischeivously annoying his uncle by comparing their own rules and rituals to those of Buddhists or Taoists.

Personality/Motivation: Curiosity about Eastern traditions aside, Brother Orchid takes his vow of Obedience very seriously. Whatever he's doing at any given moment, it's probably what someone told him to do.

Quote: No thank you brother, I can handle it. They can't weigh more than a couple hundred kilos.

Powers/Tactics: Brother Orchid is gentle by nature and if he must fight will usually try to grab and immobilize his opponent. He knows he is unusually strong and is unlikely to strike anyone with his full Strength unless frightened or severely provoked.

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

Appearance: Brother Orchid is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.



Lucius Alexander

Florist Friars copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Utech]

While Utech suggests the disad can only be applied if the character has stats in excess of the NCM limits, I believe most or all published examples of characters with the 20 point disadvantage do not have stats over the limit, or have very small amounts over the breakpoint.

jtelson, on the other hand, believes the character is disadvantaged by lacking the potential to buy up those abilities limited by NCM without paying double. Yet only characters not taking advantage of that potential, or using a workaround, ever take the disadvantage.

I'll repeat my opinion: You should only get points for a Disadvantage if your character is disadvantaged by having it.

Taking "Hatred of Orcs" in a game that has no orcs is not worth any points. You might suggest that "Hatred of Orcs" has the potential to disadvantage your character -- maybe a dimensional portal will open up and orcs will pour through -- but that's silly. I suppose I'd agree to award the character with potential points. He can't use them for anything right now, but if the disadvantage somehow comes into play, they're all his.

I certainly won't try to justify my opinion using published examples of characters. Steve Long has often indicated that published characters are not meant to indicate that a given build is legal.

[Badger]

Ehh, as far Normal Characteristics Maxima goes, I just dont ever use it. It is basically just annoying to me.

[Basil]

Dr. Infamous wishes to purchase 25 "Normal Humans," but only if they can be reprogrammed to obey him, and instructions are given for how to reprogram them in the future are included.

If the 25 "Normal Humans" in this order work out, Dr. Infamous may be ordering more in the future.

Oh, and they better be compatible with Dr. Infamous's patented supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes!

Meanwhile, The Mallard is checking teapots, looking for the one this tempest is in


Dr. Infamous, The Mallard, and the supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes are just some of the fine products of Basil's Twisted Imagination, Unincorporated. All rites performed.

[Greywind]

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

Lucius Alexander

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?I've had similar discussions in the past.

Should effects outside of your character sheet have an effect on the cost of things on your character sheet? Or should each and every character be evaluated separately?

Say you have a character that takes extra damage from an attack with an additional disad that states that damage from that type of attack doesn't heal "normally". Now you need something to affect the characters healing. Does the cost of the disadvantage get reduced because one of the other characters can heal others?

Tony Stark, IMO, in the early days, was the poster child in a lot of ways of NCM. He was "normal". Highly intelligent and very focused when he was working on something. Flighty, flaky and easily distracted by women. But his INT score could be considered within the normal range, augmented by scientific skills bought at a high level. Keep in mind that comic characters are not bought by game terms and therefore may not reflect efficiency in game terms.

When he is running around with Thor (90 STR), Giant Man (60 STR), Wasp (20+ DEX), Cap (most stats in excess of 20, depending on build) why can't he use NCM?

If you don't use the other characters around him, but the setting, you have a normal, highly intelligent man, dealing with abnormal situations on a regular basis. Why then isn't NCM allowed?

Never/Always free seems like a cheap, easy response to a general "I don't like it".

[Utech]

When he is running around with Thor (90 STR), Giant Man (60 STR), Wasp (20+ DEX), Cap (most stats in excess of 20, depending on build) why can't he use NCM?

Because NCM isn't disadvantaging his character. It's really that simple.

If he has had to pay extra points for characteristics (or what-have-you) covered by NCM, he is disadvantaged by NCM and qualifies for some portion of the NCM Disadvantage. If the player has decided that the character is powerful enough to hang out with Thor, Giant Man, Wasp, and Cap without needed to make that extra investment, then the player has decided he doesn't need any points from the NCM Disadvantage. Which is fine. Go Tony!

[Greywind]

Being normal, most of the time, in a very abnormal world, IMO, qualifies.

A lot of disadvantages aren't. It is just the way the character is and he's learned to adjust through his life. Think about it.

[jtelson]

I'll repeat my opinion: You should only get points for a Disadvantage if your character is disadvantaged by having it.

Taking "Hatred of Orcs" in a game that has no orcs is not worth any points. You might suggest that "Hatred of Orcs" has the potential to disadvantage your character -- maybe a dimensional portal will open up and orcs will pour through -- but that's silly. I suppose I'd agree to award the character with potential points. He can't use them for anything right now, but if the disadvantage somehow comes into play, they're all his.

I certainly won't try to justify my opinion using published examples of characters. Steve Long has often indicated that published characters are not meant to indicate that a given build is legal.

OK me too,

In a setting in which Characteristc expenditures are unbounded (or less bounded) not purchasing Characteristics to the level expected and surrendering the option to do so during later character development is disadvantageous.

Only acts 2/3 of average times, is stunned more easily, pays additional points for movement (+50% for same velocity - based on lower speed), lower base skill checks, lower base CVs etc

[Captain Obvious]

A Disadvantage that does not disadvantage your character is not worth any points to your character.

Having NCM on the initial build may not limit the character, but it does limit how the character develops from there. If you say a character that's supposed to be a "trained normal" can't take NCM because he starts with nothing above 20, there's nothing mechanics-wise stopping him from bumping his STR up to 50 within a few game sessions. Using GM fiat to say he can't buy his STR up because of the original character concept and disallowing the use of NCM as a Disad is as bad or worse than the opposite situation where the character is getting a "free" 20 points.

[Sean Waters]

Can anyone actually tell me what a normal human is? Presumably it is someone with NCM.

Now we can assume that NCM can be taken by people whose Characteristics do not exceed Normal Maxima, in which case we are simply letting them off finding some additional disadvantage points for being 'normal' in an extraordinary environment - which makes no sense...

OR

...we only let them take NCM when it hurts: Mighty Normal, with his 50 STR and 25 DEX takes NCM and pays 45 points more than usual. Is it me, or would that be stupid? Why not just ignore NCM and build the character on 20 fewer disadvantage points?

Concept? Don't make me laugh. the concept is in how the character is ACTUALLY built, not in claiming the character is 'normal' then finding ways around it.

So, if we assume that you can only take NCM if you lose at least as many points as you save, it is pointless. If we assume that you can take it even if you wouldn't exceed the points anyway, it is pointless.

NCM is the province of the GM, not the player*. Any limits on character creation should come from there. If the player wants to build a character with 30 STR and claim thay are just highly trained, unless the GM rules otherwise, fine: they are normal.

It is just an sfx, and you don't get points - or lose points - for those.



*Obviously not at present - I'm saying it SHOULD be.

[Sean Waters]

On the point of 'normal human' here is an interesting one: Muscle is a mutant, and she has a STR of 60.

If she gets hit with a drain that affects mutant strength, what can her STR be reduced to? -30, which is as low as characteristics can go? Or somewhere in the 10 to 20 range that she would be if she did not have her mutant power?

Some of her strength could well be 'normal' strength, amd the rest could be from her mutant ability, and that makes sense to me, but how do we decide what is what? Take away her mutant powers and what is left is 'normal', probably, so how do we find the normal in the mutant?

[jtelson]

On the point of 'normal human' here is an interesting one: Muscle is a mutant, and she has a STR of 60.

If she gets hit with a drain that affects mutant strength, what can her STR be reduced to? -30, which is as low as characteristics can go? Or somewhere in the 10 to 20 range that she would be if she did not have her mutant power?

Some of her strength could well be 'normal' strength, amd the rest could be from her mutant ability, and that makes sense to me, but how do we decide what is what? Take away her mutant powers and what is left is 'normal', probably, so how do we find the normal in the mutant?

I discuss these things with the Players during Character Creation for when they come up. So generally we have an idea on what will happen when sfx collide. So if Muscle works out regularly to maintain her girlish figure then the Drain (attacking a sfx) will likely stop somewhere between 10 and 20, otherwise it might be a bit lower.

[jtelson]

Can anyone actually tell me what a normal human is? Presumably it is someone with NCM.

NCM might be better named Max Average Being Charateristics, High End Non Super Stats, Designer Designated Line in the Sand. While often 'normal human' figures into concepts where this disadvantage applies it's not the only place where it would.

[nexus]

On the point of 'normal human' here is an interesting one: Muscle is a mutant, and she has a STR of 60.

If she gets hit with a drain that affects mutant strength, what can her STR be reduced to? -30, which is as low as characteristics can go? Or somewhere in the 10 to 20 range that she would be if she did not have her mutant power?


This is why I've started asking players to get characteristics that result from superhuman or unusual sfx under Powers. For example. "Muscles" would have her so called normal Strength in the characteristic bloc and "Enhanced Mutant Strength +X" under Powers. Of course, it's not always clear cut.

[Sean Waters]

This is why I've started asking players to get characteristics that result from superhuman or unusual sfx under Powers. For example. "Muscles" would have her so called normal Strength in the characteristic bloc and "Enhanced Mutant Strength +X" under Powers. Of course, it's not always clear cut.

One possible approach, if players do not want to go to the trouble of working it out in advance; when it comes up, roll 3d6 for your 'base characteristic' and record that for present and future use.

[Markdoc]

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use flight, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.


If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use mental powers, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.


How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

Not worth as much points as being unable to ever acquire or use the powers, but again, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so again this seems reasonable.


If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

I wouldn't call it that :D but this one we've actually seen in game - a character in a Fantasy game took a psych lim (a Geas) that he would not use armour. That certainly disadvantaged him. So yep, that's definately worth a disadvantage.

The long and the short of it is that in most games that run more than a few sessions, characteristic inflation is an issue. That's only reasonable given how efficient characteristics are. A character who chooses the NCM disadvantage is choosing a suboptimal (or at least more limited) development path over the longer term and it's fair enough that he gets some points for it.

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

I'll repeat my opinion: You should only get points for a Disadvantage if your character is disadvantaged by having it.

Taking "Hatred of Orcs" in a game that has no orcs is not worth any points. You might suggest that "Hatred of Orcs" has the potential to disadvantage your character -- maybe a dimensional portal will open up and orcs will pour through -- but that's silly. I suppose I'd agree to award the character with potential points. He can't use them for anything right now, but if the disadvantage somehow comes into play, they're all his.

I certainly won't try to justify my opinion using published examples of characters. Steve Long has often indicated that published characters are not meant to indicate that a given build is legal.

Can you show me even a SINGLE example of a published character with NCM who HAS been disadvantaged by your definition?

Overall, I agree with you. NCM is only taken by characters who don't buy up their characteristics to a point where they are paying significant extra points for characteristics - they are not disadvantaged.

Really, NCM should have a variable price - 1/2 of the points spent on characteristics and abilities in excess of the NCM levels. But then it's futile, isn't it?

[Hugh Neilson]

Having NCM on the initial build may not limit the character, but it does limit how the character develops from there. If you say a character that's supposed to be a "trained normal" can't take NCM because he starts with nothing above 20, there's nothing mechanics-wise stopping him from bumping his STR up to 50 within a few game sessions. Using GM fiat to say he can't buy his STR up because of the original character concept and disallowing the use of NCM as a Disad is as bad or worse than the opposite situation where the character is getting a "free" 20 points.

Assuming this is the case, I refer you to Markdoc:


Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use flight, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.

Not necessarily, but if you took a disad, ensuring that you could not acquire/use mental powers, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so this seems reasonable.

Not worth as much points as being unable to ever acquire or use the powers, but again, the character would be at a disadvantage in any sort of ongoing game, so again this seems reasonable.

I wouldn't call it that :D but this one we've actually seen in game - a character in a Fantasy game took a psych lim (a Geas) that he would not use armour. That certainly disadvantaged him. So yep, that's definately worth a disadvantage.

The long and the short of it is that in most games that run more than a few sessions, characteristic inflation is an issue. That's only reasonable given how efficient characteristics are. A character who chooses the NCM disadvantage is choosing a suboptimal (or at least more limited) development path over the longer term and it's fair enough that he gets some points for it.

If restrictions in the development of the character are truly a disadvantage meriting points, then ALL such restrictions should be disadvantages meriting points. The complete inability to purchase something is more restrictive than paying twice the points, and should be worth more. Broader categories of abilities being denied is more restrictive, and should be worth more. Building from 20 points for NCM, a moderately broad category doubled in cost is worth 20 points. If we add in doubled cost for all characteristics over NCM, even if purchased with limitations, that should be worth more - maybe 30 points. Make it illegal to buy them and it should probably double, so 40 points or 60 points.


I've had similar discussions in the past.

Should effects outside of your character sheet have an effect on the cost of things on your character sheet? Or should each and every character be evaluated separately?

Say you have a character that takes extra damage from an attack with an additional disad that states that damage from that type of attack doesn't heal "normally". Now you need something to affect the characters healing. Does the cost of the disadvantage get reduced because one of the other characters can heal others?

Tony Stark, IMO, in the early days, was the poster child in a lot of ways of NCM. He was "normal". Highly intelligent and very focused when he was working on something. Flighty, flaky and easily distracted by women. But his INT score could be considered within the normal range, augmented by scientific skills bought at a high level. Keep in mind that comic characters are not bought by game terms and therefore may not reflect efficiency in game terms.

When he is running around with Thor (90 STR), Giant Man (60 STR), Wasp (20+ DEX), Cap (most stats in excess of 20, depending on build) why can't he use NCM?

Why CAN he? When he was running around with Thor ("Cannot buy scientific powers or magic spells" - every other PC had scientific based powers, and most NPC's either had science or magic give them a choice of unusual one off powers as they needed them), Giant Man ("cannot have powers unrelated to size change or insect control"), the Wasp ("only allowed wasp powers linked to Shrinking"), Cap ("cannot take non-focused powers not related to augmented human physiology), he got his characteristics from a different source ("cannot buy powers or above NCM abilities without a focus").

Why CAN'T he? Why not, indeed? Most of his teammates could ALSO take NCM. Consider Thor (all boosted abilities were OIHID - limited characteristics don't count to NCM, remember?), Giant Man (his enhanced stats came from Growth or Shrinking, both of which were due to serums, gas or pills in those days and, even if not, Linked to his size changing powers - so still "Char as Limitation = Power"), the Wasp (NCM for the same reason as Giant Man), Cap (who IS a highly trained human normal who would NOT take NCM because his stats were "human peak", not "top of human average" - the only "Normal Human" is the only guy on the team who DOESN'T take NCM - unless you count the Super Soldier Serum as a limitation...). Iron Man just uses a different limitation for his abilities exceeding NCM. So everyone but Cap, the most "normal human" on the team, gets NCM!

[Badger]

Can anyone actually tell me what a normal human is? Presumably it is someone with NCM.

Now we can assume that NCM can be taken by people whose Characteristics do not exceed Normal Maxima, in which case we are simply letting them off finding some additional disadvantage points for being 'normal' in an extraordinary environment - which makes no sense...

OR

...we only let them take NCM when it hurts: Mighty Normal, with his 50 STR and 25 DEX takes NCM and pays 45 points more than usual. Is it me, or would that be stupid? Why not just ignore NCM and build the character on 20 fewer disadvantage points?

Concept? Don't make me laugh. the concept is in how the character is ACTUALLY built, not in claiming the character is 'normal' then finding ways around it.

So, if we assume that you can only take NCM if you lose at least as many points as you save, it is pointless. If we assume that you can take it even if you wouldn't exceed the points anyway, it is pointless.

NCM is the province of the GM, not the player*. Any limits on character creation should come from there. If the player wants to build a character with 30 STR and claim thay are just highly trained, unless the GM rules otherwise, fine: they are normal.

It is just an sfx, and you don't get points - or lose points - for those.



*Obviously not at present - I'm saying it SHOULD be.

Not thoughts put in essay form. ;)

[Utech]

Can you show me even a SINGLE example of a published character with NCM who HAS been disadvantaged by your definition?
Nope. But I don't have many to draw from. So make of that what you will.


Overall, I agree with you. NCM is only taken by characters who don't buy up their characteristics to a point where they are paying significant extra points for characteristics - they are not disadvantaged.
:thumbup:

[Utech]

Being normal, most of the time, in a very abnormal world, IMO, qualifies.

A lot of disadvantages aren't. It is just the way the character is and he's learned to adjust through his life. Think about it.
OK, I've thought about it. Still don't buy your argument.

Characters shouldn't get points for potential disadvantages. They get points for actually being at a disadvantage. The disadvantage in this case is having invested more points for the same Characteristics than other characters. Don't make the investment, you don't reap the reward (more of a booby prize, but that's neither here nor there).

Similarly, you shouldn't claim Disadvantage points because you didn't spring for an Energy Blast, or Acrobatics, or Wealth, or...

[Greywind]

So, unless a disadvantage handicaps the character from the moment of conception until the day he dies, it isn't a disad.

No long term disads. It has to be negative now.

Got it.

Don't buy it, but I got it.

[Lucius]

Dr. Infamous wishes to purchase 25 "Normal Humans," but only if they can be reprogrammed to obey him, and instructions are given for how to reprogram them in the future are included.

If the 25 "Normal Humans" in this order work out, Dr. Infamous may be ordering more in the future.

Oh, and they better be compatible with Dr. Infamous's patented supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes!

Meanwhile, The Mallard is checking teapots, looking for the one this tempest is in


Dr. Infamous, The Mallard, and the supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes are just some of the fine products of Basil's Twisted Imagination, Unincorporated. All rites performed.


Although Palindromedary Enterprises has certain joint projects in common with certain Bayang factions, we cannot broker deals for them.

It is suggested that you contact your local Game Operations Director for assistance.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary deposits a tempest in the same teapot with the patented supersonic telepathic mechanical penguins with laser eyes

[Kdansky]

Being normal, most of the time, in a very abnormal world, IMO, qualifies.

Social Limitation. Not NCM.


NCM is a purely mechanical thing and as such, it utterly fails. Inreasing or decreasing cost of stuff you could buy at will never works.

No Psionic: Mental Powers cost x2: -20cp
No Speedster: Speed above 6 costs x2: -10cp
No Brick: STR above 40 costs x2: -5cp
No Energy Projector: EBs cost x2: -10cp
No Dimensiontraveler: EDM costs x2: -5cp
No Transformer: Transform costs x2: -5cp
NCM: Characteristics above arbitrary treshold cost x2: -20cp

Shall I go on? It's a horrible concept. It works as a campaign rule, but only there. The book even lists the example: "If you want Transform to be more common, you can reduce it's cost by half." etc.

[jtelson]

OK, I've thought about it. Still don't buy your argument.

Characters shouldn't get points for potential disadvantages. They get points for actually being at a disadvantage. The disadvantage in this case is having invested more points for the same Characteristics than other characters. Don't make the investment, you don't reap the reward (more of a booby prize, but that's neither here nor there).

All disadvantages are potential disadvantages. We assume that because we took fear of Spiders it will become releant but generally it's up to the GM to decide if and when it's going to.

[Hugh Neilson]

All disadvantages are potential disadvantages. We assume that because we took fear of Spiders it will become relevant but generally it's up to the GM to decide if and when it's going to.

Similarly, I would expect that, if I bought Life Support: Extreme Heat, the GM will provide an opportunity for me to show off this ability not shared by by comrades. Just like he will provide opportunities for the Brick to show off his high STR and the Speedster to show off his high DEX and SPD.

How does NCM impact this? How does the GM make "you pay double for certain characteristics" any MORE relevant to the game than "You don't have characteristics as high as your teammates, but you could buy them for normal cost"?

The GM controls whether spiders are relevant in any given scenario, and therefore controls the relevance of "Fear of Spiders". He does not control how the player spends character points, and cannot make that spending any more relevant than it is with no disad's related to how you spent your points.

Or, if you feel the GM can make NCM relevant, why is it not equally easy to make "Can't buy flight" relevant, in which case it is equally deserving of generating disadvantage points?

Having only normal characteristics may be a "small d" disadvantage - it would be more advantageous for the character to have higher characteristics. Similarly, inability to fly can be a "small d" disadvantage when it prevents effective meeting of a challenge. But neither is a "capital D" Disadvantage - one which is a game mechanic generating disadvantage points. No, you can't fly, so you have the points to spend on a different advantage for your character. No, you didn't spend as much on characteristics, so you had more points to spend on other advantages for your character - like the Flight that the other character could sure use right now!

[Utech]

So, unless a disadvantage handicaps the character from the moment of conception until the day he dies, it isn't a disad.
Don't be silly. I said nothing of the kind. Many Disadvantages don't come into play all the time. NCM, however, clearly does.

As to development... I fully support dynamic Disadvantages. You can buy off ones you start with, take new ones, swap things around, etc.

If you start a character with low Characteristics and do not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage, I see nothing to prevent you from buying up those Characteristics in the future in such a way that you do qualify for points from the NCM Disadvantage.

[Lucius]

Don't be silly. I said nothing of the kind. Many Disadvantages don't come into play all the time. NCM, however, clearly does.

As to development... I fully support dynamic Disadvantages. You can buy off ones you start with, take new ones, swap things around, etc.

If you start a character with low Characteristics and do not qualify for any points from the NCM Disadvantage, I see nothing to prevent you from buying up those Characteristics in the future in such a way that you do qualify for points from the NCM Disadvantage.

So suppose my character is a Bayang and wants to buy a Normal Human follower.

Are you saying that

1. Because I may someday want to buy up the Characteristics, the write-up is OK as is and I can have Normal Characteristics Maxima on my robot?
or

2. If I ever do want to buy up those Characteristics I can take Normal Characteristic Maxima THEN and pay more for the Characteristics but more than offset it with the new Disadvantage?

Lucius Alexander

Normal Palindromedary Follower

[SteveZilla]

And Int is the base for a pretty large number of skills.

But AFAIK none of which are considered "Combat Skills".

The problem with Skill Levels isn't so much NCM or Not NCM, but the fact that the same kind of level costs the same for INT/STR Skills (the cheapest Characteristics*) as it does for DEX Skills (the most expensive Characteristic).

*I'm not counting COM in this, okay? ;)

[SteveZilla]

Perhaps taking NCM should also make the character's Primary Characteristics start at 8 instead of 10 because he's a "Normal Character"?

[Sean Waters]

STR 20 = 10 points
DEX 20 = 30 points

Hmm. Perhaps we should base our notion of normality on how many points you can spend on any one thing, rather than just the number '20'. Perhaps you can be normal and not spend more than 12 points on anything without doubling the cost, which would allow you up to 22 STR, 14 DEX, 6" of flight or a 2 1/2d6 EB*. Of course you'd be laughing with defences because they stack: +12pd, +12 ed, +6/6 force field, +4/4 armour and 1/4 DR (normal physical and energy).

I mean, I can see how that would be a limitation.




*Sorry, sheesh, what was I thinking:

Normal Attack Of Doom: 12 Active, 8 Real
Energy Blast 1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Area Of Effect (1" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (20 shots; +2 1/2) (12 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

[jtelson]

STR 20 = 10 points
DEX 20 = 30 points

Hmm. Perhaps we should base our notion of normality on how many points you can spend on any one thing, rather than just the number '20'. Perhaps you can be normal and not spend more than 12 points on anything without doubling the cost, which would allow you up to 22 STR, 14 DEX, 6" of flight or a 2 1/2d6 EB*. Of course you'd be laughing with defences because they stack: +12pd, +12 ed, +6/6 force field, +4/4 armour and 1/4 DR (normal physical and energy).

I mean, I can see how that would be a limitation.

It's a thought, it'd have to be a pretty big disad.



*Sorry, sheesh, what was I thinking:

Normal Attack Of Doom: 12 Active, 8 Real
Energy Blast 1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Area Of Effect (1" Radius; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (20 shots; +2 1/2) (12 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

Isn't that only going to blow up in your hex? Is a 1" radius bigger than a hex? It's never come up.

[Utech]

so suppose my character is a bayang and wants to buy a normal human follower.

Are you saying that

1. Because i may someday want to buy up the characteristics, the write-up is ok as is and i can have normal characteristics maxima on my robot?
Or

2. If i ever do want to buy up those characteristics i can take normal characteristic maxima then and pay more for the characteristics but more than offset it with the new disadvantage?

Lucius alexander

normal palindromedary follower
2

[Lucius]

2

Good. I could take it now by dropping 1 pt of BOD and Security Systems and spending those points and the extra 4 so far unspent on INT, raising it to 33.

Eventually, if I spend enough on improving the robot that I'm spending 20 extra points on Characteristics due to the Normal Characteristic Maxima Disadvantages, I buy off the Disadvantages for 30 points and thus free up 30 points to spend on defenses (which are EXPENSIVE for something with the Automaton Takes No Stun power!)

I just realized that above a certain point the Normal Human's basic PD and ED will cost SIX TIMES normal....

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that expensive defenses are a good reason to buy BOD, and since BOD is capped at 10 before doubling, it won't take long to hit the breakpoint where you buy off the Disad....

[Lucius]

Why CAN he? When he was running around with Thor ("Cannot buy scientific powers or magic spells" - every other PC had scientific based powers, and most NPC's either had science or magic give them a choice of unusual one off powers as they needed them), Giant Man ("cannot have powers unrelated to size change or insect control"), the Wasp ("only allowed wasp powers linked to Shrinking"), Cap ("cannot take non-focused powers not related to augmented human physiology), he got his characteristics from a different source ("cannot buy powers or above NCM abilities without a focus").

Why CAN'T he? Why not, indeed? Most of his teammates could ALSO take NCM. Consider Thor (all boosted abilities were OIHID - limited characteristics don't count to NCM, remember?), Giant Man (his enhanced stats came from Growth or Shrinking, both of which were due to serums, gas or pills in those days and, even if not, Linked to his size changing powers - so still "Char as Limitation = Power"), the Wasp (NCM for the same reason as Giant Man), Cap (who IS a highly trained human normal who would NOT take NCM because his stats were "human peak", not "top of human average" - the only "Normal Human" is the only guy on the team who DOESN'T take NCM - unless you count the Super Soldier Serum as a limitation...). Iron Man just uses a different limitation for his abilities exceeding NCM. So everyone but Cap, the most "normal human" on the team, gets NCM!


Actually, I'm not sure Captain America can't take Normal Characteristic Maxima.

No, the serum isn't a limitation - but it is an advantage. Captain America's STR and Running would be bought "Zero END cost" - making them Powers and not subject to the double cost rule.

I am no expert on the character, but...

I seem to recall that he maintains his combat readiness with constant practice and training. His superhuman DEX can have a limitation: fades without constant practice. Granted that is only likely to come up if you manage to capture him and hold him for a couple of days, but even a -0 Limitation exempts a Characteristic from costing double....I've also heard a proposal that his extra DEX needs time to kick in, and represents that as everyone around him gets tired and he doesn't, he becomes more competent in comparison....

The PRE could be regarded either as Reputation, or maybe as Only in Hero ID (Doesn't he have a Secret ID?)

Lucius Alexander

Captain Palindromedary

[Badger]

One possible approach, if players do not want to go to the trouble of working it out in advance; when it comes up, roll 3d6 for your 'base characteristic' and record that for present and future use.


Course, if I did that, it'd be the most likely time for me to roll triple-snake eyes. :(

[Sean Waters]

...............

Isn't that only going to blow up in your hex? Is a 1" radius bigger than a hex? It's never come up.

It was bought as 'One Hex' doubled, so it blows up your hex and all the hexes around you, basically everyone in melee range - including friends. That was how Hero Designer notes it.

[Sean Waters]

Course, if I did that, it'd be the most likely time for me to roll triple-snake eyes. :(

That works two ways though. If you are a 50 STR mutant then a 'drain mutant STR' would be able to get rid of 47 STR. If, however, it was a 'drain normal STR', then it could only drain 33 (normal STR goes all the way down to -30).

I know: over complicated. I am what I am.

[Lucius]

2

So - are you also saying that no one should take the Age Disad unless they are paying extra for at least one characteristic?

Lucius Alexander

And a well aged palindromedary

[schir1964]

Rabbit Trail
I've always thought that the Age Disadvantage should be built with Static Penalties that the character always suffers (-OCV,-DCV,-X to Agility Skills, and so forth).

- Christopher Mullins

[Blue Jogger]

Rabbit Trail
I've always thought that the Age Disadvantage should be built with Static Penalties that the character always suffers (-OCV,-DCV,-X to Agility Skills, and so forth).

The Age Disadvantage is great for building ancient wizards, not for explaining why Gramapa is not as young as he used to be. If you want that, you need Physical Limitations such as Arthritis or Senility.

[Hugh Neilson]

The Age Disadvantage is great for building ancient wizards, not for explaining why Gramapa is not as young as he used to be. If you want that, you need Physical Limitations such as Arthritis or Senility.

It's a disadvantage you get for taking cost penalties on stats you weren't going to buy in order to get a cost break on stats you wanted. How does that make sense?

For that matter, why is "Age" limited by SFX? The disadvantage itself notes that one could take Age 40+ and be a "remarkably spry 93 year old". Why can't a frail, bookish 23 year old Wizard who has spent his life cloistered in a dark tower poring over arcane lore take "Frail" with the same restrictions as a character over age 60?

Should the disadvantage be imposed in play if the character reaches a new age category? After 10 game-years in play, should the character who started as a "50 year old grizzled veteran" have the 60+ restrictions imposed upon him? How many game years before the "under 10" street urchin is required to buy off the disadvantage?

Age 10- is wonky. STR max is 5, but all PC's start with 10. The FAQ suggests he gets the base 10 for free, but pays double from there on up, but goes on to suggest he should sell all his stats back to the new maximum (at regular, not doubled, points - saves 19), then pay (double) to buy them back up, if he so desires. Which is it?

My simple reasoning says ditch NCM. If your character has a 20 DEX, it costs 30 points . Another 5 DEX costs another 15. If you want the stats of a 6 year old, sell back to that level. The points you get back, not a screwy disad, are your reward. He's getting older? Buy the stats up - normal price. We dont need a special rule for some characters who pay different amounts for the same abilities.

You want a game where characters rarely exceed 20, and don't exceep 30? Then establish that as a ground rule - stats over 20 must be justified with character schtick; no one has more than one stat over 20, and it can't exceed 30; whatever. A setting where the doubling rule is imposed? Fine - that's no different from TA's 1/3 cost of spells. But not a core rule, thanks. Core rules should be SFX neutral and setting neutral.

[Greywind]

Thinking further about NCM and its impact.

How many of us use Elemental Control?

How many of us have a problem with the inherent discount that Elemental Controls give for having a "tight, cohesive concept"?

Why can't NCM be considered in the same category? The only problem with it, since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" and, from the debates here, that is the biggest stumbling block for people. It is a disadvantage rather than a cost reduction for concept.

[Lucius]

How many of us use Elemental Control?


For many many years, I didn't. I was just resistant to the concept. I do use it now.


How many of us have a problem with the inherent discount that Elemental Controls give for having a "tight, cohesive concept"?


A number of people do.

My personal problem is with including the Elemental Control, but not including Package Deals (I define as Package Deal as something that saves you points if you buy the "bundle." Otherwise they can call it a Package Deal, but I don't see the "deal" to it.)



Why can't NCM be considered in the same category?


Why would it be?


The only problem with it, since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" and, from the debates here, that is the biggest stumbling block for people.

Really? Take another look at the Florist Friars. No Disadvantage points there.

And it is not at all the case that "since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" " - that is simply not so. At its inception it was a rule for Heroic level games like Fantasy Hero and Justice Inc.

Lucius Alexander



the idea that NCM applies with the same levels to pixies and ogres, but not to horses, elephants and palindromedaries is, well, just silly

[Hugh Neilson]

Thinking further about NCM and its impact.

How many of us use Elemental Control?

How many of us have a problem with the inherent discount that Elemental Controls give for having a "tight, cohesive concept"?

Why can't NCM be considered in the same category? The only problem with it, since its inception it has been listed as a "disadvantage" and, from the debates here, that is the biggest stumbling block for people. It is a disadvantage rather than a cost reduction for concept.

Why can't I get points for "magic spells cost double" for my brawny fantasy warrior or wily rogue? Or points for "more than two levels with any weapon costs double" for my wizard? These contribute to a nice tight concept/

To me, the NCM rules are a means of saying "here are the campaign's ground rules, but you can break them if you pay double". Can I buy a LightSaber in a Middle Earth game if I pay double, or a Magic Spells VPP in a Hard Sci Fi game by paying double?

How I can use my points as a player is not a disadvantage or limitation to the character.

[Sean Waters]

I can see the benefit of taking a perk or paying a cost in some other way, a sort of 'ante' to access abilities that other characters cannot, but I can not really get behind the idea of the 'standard' being a character who is bought with a disadvantage. If you are playing a normal human (and can accurately define that) in a game where that is the norm then I see no point in everyone taking the disadvantage - just play with more free points.

If superhuman is the norm, presumably you are choosing to play a character within certain arbitrary limits and I do not see why character concept is a good reason for a disadvantage either. The only characteristic you can not really 'do' with powers is SPEED and you can even buy that as a power if you want. Why should a mentalist with puny body but devastating mind (and an extra +4 SPD only for mental powers) get a free disadvantage?

Others may see it differently but it is a needless distraction, to my mind.

[Lucius]

I can see the benefit of taking a perk or paying a cost in some other way, a sort of 'ante' to access abilities that other characters cannot, but I can not really get behind the idea of the 'standard' being a character who is bought with a disadvantage. If you are playing a normal human (and can accurately define that) in a game where that is the norm then I see no point in everyone taking the disadvantage - just play with more free points.

If superhuman is the norm, presumably you are choosing to play a character within certain arbitrary limits and I do not see why character concept is a good reason for a disadvantage either. The only characteristic you can not really 'do' with powers is SPEED and you can even buy that as a power if you want. Why should a mentalist with puny body but devastating mind (and an extra +4 SPD only for mental powers) get a free disadvantage?

Others may see it differently but it is a needless distraction, to my mind.

Two free disadvantages. Normal Characteristics and Age.

Got to take the latter or you pay extra for EGO!

But by taking Age, you both get free points AND save points on EGO and INT!

Lucius Alexander



the idea that NCM applies with the same levels to pixies and ogres, but not to horses, elephants and palindromedaries is, well, just silly

[Greywind]

Why can't I get points for "magic spells cost double" for my brawny fantasy warrior or wily rogue? Or points for "more than two levels with any weapon costs double" for my wizard? These contribute to a nice tight concept/

To me, the NCM rules are a means of saying "here are the campaign's ground rules, but you can break them if you pay double". Can I buy a LightSaber in a Middle Earth game if I pay double, or a Magic Spells VPP in a Hard Sci Fi game by paying double?

How I can use my points as a player is not a disadvantage or limitation to the character.And the use of Frameworks isn't an inherent advantage?

[Hugh Neilson]

And the use of Frameworks isn't an inherent advantage?

How many points should I get for "frameworks cost double"?

[Utech]

Perhaps the point savings one enjoys with Elemental Control suggests that all the Powers are overpriced to begin with?

I've seen very few characters who are not built with a Multipower, Elemental Control or VPP.

I'm not suggesting a change in the rules -- they seem to work well for me -- just sayin'.

[Greywind]

How many points should I get for "frameworks cost double"?
Why do you argue against NCM, but you don't argue against frameworks in general?

[Lucius]

Why do you argue against NCM, but you don't argue against frameworks in general?

Why do you argue in nonsequitors?

That's like asking why do you argue against COM but not against Skill Enhancers?

Why do you argue against Variable Power Pools but not against Martial Arts?

Lucius Alexander

Why do you argue against pineapples but not palindromedaries?

[Hugh Neilson]

Why do you argue against NCM, but you don't argue against frameworks in general?


Why do you argue in nonsequitors?

That's like asking why do you argue against COM but not against Skill Enhancers?

Why do you argue against Variable Power Pools but not against Martial Arts?

Lucius Alexander

Why do you argue against pineapples but not palindromedaries?

As Lucius points out, NCM is not a framework. What purpose does NCM serve?

Does it provide a "normal human being" template? Clearly not, as Lucius' builds clearly show. How is a character who can fly, generate beams of heat vision, breathe underwater or in space and generate a force field over his rocky skin (Damage Resistancde or Armor) any more a "normal human" than a character with a 40 STR, 26 DEX and 25 PD and ED?

Does it provide a cost reduction in exchange for limiting factors? A Multipower provides a point break to have several different powers which cannot be used together. A VPP sets a cost for allowing an infinite array of different powers which cannot be used together. An EC requires a single SFX (making those abilities that only work against a single SFX quite nasty - how well does Human Torch operate underwater?), links the powers to be drained together, and restricts the ability to use them together (no MPA with multiple attack powers in an EC). NCM just says you pay double for certain purchases. And you can avoid many of those by making those purchases "characteristics as powers" instead of just characteristics.

Does it provide new options? Not really. It gives you a disadvantage for taking away some options. If that's a useful mechanic, why doesn't it apply more broadly and allow for:

- impact on other purchases - such as characteristics over 30, or mental powers, or frameworks?
- impact other than doubled cost, such as 50% greater cost, or triple cost, or complete inability to spend points on those abilities?

So I turn the question back to you. Why aren't YOU arguing for the broadening of the "Restricted Use of Character Points" disadvantage to go beyond the very few "characteristics above X cost double" examples presently provided by NCM?

[Greywind]

I see NCM not as a disadvantage, but as a set-cost saving (20 points), similar to the power cost reduction for being stuck in a framework. Even at that, the frameworks get a far greater discount overall.

[Lucius]

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

Lucius Alexander

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?

[IndianaJoe3]

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?

Physical Limitation: Lacks a Palindromedary (Uncommon, Slightly Limiting) - 5 points :nonp:

[Hugh Neilson]

Physical Limitation: Lacks a Palindromedary (Uncommon, Slightly Limiting) - 5 points :nonp:

That should be worth at least 10 - after all, "Palindromedaries cost Double" needs to be worth 5.

[Greywind]

If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"

Lucius Alexander

If I have a palindromedary and none of the rest of you do, should you all have a Disadvantage?First thing, stop thinking of it as a disadvantage...

[Lucius]

First thing, stop thinking of it as a disadvantage...

Well, it's possible to divide it into two different issues.

Originally it wasn't a Disadvantage, it was a default rule for "heroic" level games. Do you mean to defend that? Because I think it's plain that that's not a very good idea either.

Then it was shoehorned into superheroic games as a Disadvantage. Since you're saying "don't think of it as a disadvantage" I assume you don't want to talk about it as it exists in superhero games.

Lucius Alexander

You can call it a palindromedary if you want to, but that doesn't mean I'll put it in a tagline.

[Greywind]

Ok. Basic argument seems to be "points for nothing".

Which can also be directly levied against the "discount" cost for Multi-powers and Elemental Controls.

[Lucius]

Ok. Basic argument seems to be "points for nothing".

Which can also be directly levied against the "discount" cost for Multi-powers and Elemental Controls.

Try again.

If that were the only argument, no one would have a problem with it in heroic games, and there would be no Florist Friars. But yes, "points for nothing" is part of the argument on the superhero side.

So to address what I hear you saying here:

First of all, Normal Characteristic Maxima isn't a framework. If anything, it's the opposite of a framework.

Multipower and Elemental Control does not get you "points for nothing." What they do is, after an initial investment (so to speak) make certain purchases much less expensive by steeply discounting them. And in the case of Multipower at least it's not "for nothing."

Normal Characteristic Maxima does the opposite - it makes certain things more expensive, namely Characteristics. And in a system like Hero there is no way to do that without getting some strange and wonky effects.

In fact, if you made it a "hard cap" - not a double cost - you would succesfuly eliminate Florist Friars but it wouldn't even slow down ironically named killer robots. We've still got three loopholes big enough for a Normal Human to fly through, and if you close off all three of them, guess what? you get something else very weird. You get the problems the loopholes are there to prevent. You get a barbarian fighter with STR 20 putting on the Girdle of Giant STR and finding his STR is enhanced by - Zero. You get the martial artist with DEX 20 and SPD 4 trying the Super Soldier Serum and finding his combat capabilities improved by a factor of - Zero. You get....well, hopefully what you get now is the idea. There IS no way to make Normal Characteristic Maxima work that doesn't lead to some kind of absurdity.


I think the real question is, what's it good for? It took me a while to come around to this position, but I've never seen a viable argument against it - it's good for nothing. It's like the Flintstones Car, it looks useful but it doesn't do anything for you that could not be more easily done otherwise.

Lucius Alexander

Normal Palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

Try again.

If that were the only argument, no one would have a problem with it in heroic games, and there would be no Florist Friars. But yes, "points for nothing" is part of the argument on the superhero side.

So to address what I hear you saying here:

First of all, Normal Characteristic Maxima isn't a framework. If anything, it's the opposite of a framework.

Multipower and Elemental Control does not get you "points for nothing." What they do is, after an initial investment (so to speak) make certain purchases much less expensive by steeply discounting them. And in the case of Multipower at least it's not "for nothing."

To add to Lucius' point, we should also eliminate those skill enhancers that let you take a point off each purchase of a type of skill. Clearly, the Scientist (subtract 1 point from all Science skill purchases for 3 points) Skill Enhancer won't be taken by anyone with less than three science skills.

Frameworks, and skill enhancers, do one of two things (often both in combination). They reduce cost for limits on access to the abilities (multipower and VPP especially, EC to a much lesser effect). And they give a discount for purchases within a specific SFX (EC obviously; skill enhancers perhaps less obviously).

There is no "SFX" supported by NCM. Certainly not "normal human", as the Florist Friars and Killer Robots demonstrate. I can fit most mentalists and many energy projectors into NCM without a lot of work - how "Normal" are they?


Normal Characteristic Maxima does the opposite - it makes certain things more expensive, namely Characteristics. And in a system like Hero there is no way to do that without getting some strange and wonky effects.

In fact, if you made it a "hard cap" - not a double cost - you would succesfuly eliminate Florist Friars but it wouldn't even slow down ironically named killer robots. We've still got three loopholes big enough for a Normal Human to fly through, and if you close off all three of them, guess what? you get something else very weird. You get the problems the loopholes are there to prevent. You get a barbarian fighter with STR 20 putting on the Girdle of Giant STR and finding his STR is enhanced by - Zero. You get the martial artist with DEX 20 and SPD 4 trying the Super Soldier Serum and finding his combat capabilities improved by a factor of - Zero. You get....well, hopefully what you get now is the idea. There IS no way to make Normal Characteristic Maxima work that doesn't lead to some kind of absurdity.

Of course, what we get now is easy workarounds. You want a Hero with a 40 STR? That's 50 points. Oh, he gets 20 of that 40 "only if he never willingly gets his hair cut" (-0)? That makes it a power, so you can buy it for 30. Or it's IIF Girdle of Giant Strength, so you reduce that last 20 STR from a cost of 40 to a cost of 16 for a -1/4 limitation. Funny...that looks more like a -2 1/2 limitation when I run the math.

[Lucius]

To add to Lucius' point,


I'd say, going off on a tangent



Frameworks, and skill enhancers, do one of two things (often both in combination). They reduce cost for limits on access to the abilities (multipower and VPP especially, EC to a much lesser effect). And they give a discount for purchases within a specific SFX (EC obviously; skill enhancers perhaps less obviously).


While there is a case to be made against Elemental Control and Skill Enhancers, it's not a case I'm making; I'm not sure it's even a case I support. I LIKE Skill Enhancers in particular.

But the case against Normal Characteristic Maxima is seperate; as you point out



There is no "SFX" supported by NCM. Certainly not "normal human", as the Florist Friars and Killer Robots demonstrate. I can fit most mentalists and many energy projectors into NCM without a lot of work - how "Normal" are they?

Even better - you can use the Age Disad on those mentalists and gain still more points at the same time as you remove any barrier to the high INT, EGO, and PRE you wanted.



Of course, what we get now is easy workarounds. You want a Hero with a 40 STR? That's 50 points. Oh, he gets 20 of that 40 "only if he never willingly gets his hair cut" (-0)? That makes it a power, so you can buy it for 30. Or it's IIF Girdle of Giant Strength, so you reduce that last 20 STR from a cost of 40 to a cost of 16 for a -1/4 limitation. Funny...that looks more like a -2 1/2 limitation when I run the math.


Even better, put an Advantage on those "superhuman" 20 pts of STR, like Half End. Now it costs 30 pts rather than 40 - you've made it cheaper by putting an Advantage on it.

For the record, I'm not opposed to some kind of "Only Human in a World of Superbeings" Disad - but what we have here is very clearly NOT that.

Nor am I opposed to putting reasonable limits on characteristics, nor to the system providing some guidance as to what's "reasonable." But Normal Characteristic Maxima as it currently exists is not reasonable at all.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary goes off on a tangerine.

[jwpacker]

How would y'all feel about NCM being expanded, slightly, to enforce that the character have no powers outside of normal human ken. Talents, sure, perks, why not, foci, up the yin-yang, but nothing that is inherent (as opposed to Inherent +1/4) to them?

[steamteck]

Try again.

I think the real question is, what's it good for? It took me a while to come around to this position, but I've never seen a viable argument against it - it's good for nothing. It's like the Flintstones Car, it looks useful but it doesn't do anything for you that could not be more easily done otherwise.

Lucius Alexander

Normal Palindromedary

Its good for characters who are normal physically even if they have other extraordinary abilities. I'm still baffled that not being able to buy superhuman characteristics isn't a disadvantage. That you can munchkin around it proves nothing more than you can munchkin.

That said I could go with a separate disadvantage where you really were a normal human. Gimme more tools not less.

[Lucius]

Its good for characters who are normal physically even if they have other extraordinary abilities. I'm still baffled that not being able to buy superhuman characteristics isn't a disadvantage. That you can munchkin around it proves nothing more than you can munchkin.

That said I could go with a separate disadvantage where you really were a normal human. Gimme more tools not less.


Welll, we can start with the fact that "not being able to buy superhuman characteristics" isn't what Normal Characteristic Maxima is (see Florist Friars, above, AKA The Anti Munchkins.)

But I can see the point of saying "more tools, not less." If your answer to questions like



If everyone else has Flight, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

If everyone else has Mental Powers, should you get a Disadvantage if you don't?

How about if you want to pay double for those abilities?

If everyone else has Resistant Defenses and you don't should you have a Disadvantage called "Seeker?"


Is mostly "yes" then you are at least being consistent.

My next question, though, is: if none of the player characters have characteristics over 20, should any of them get Normal Characteristic Maxima?


Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wants a limitation for Abnormal Characteristic Maxima.

[Greywind]

Why does something have to be immediately active in order to limit?

If the character falls into human range, where possibilities exist to allow the character higher stats and the player chooses to limit the character with NCM, why not allow it?

The characters get experience, and you know, some day he might want to jack his DEX up above 20. Suddenly, there's a point cost issue involved, that the player chose at onset.

[Hugh Neilson]

Its good for characters who are normal physically even if they have other extraordinary abilities.

OK, I can say it again. A character who can fly, read minds, spit gouts of flame and shield himself in a screen of force is NOT NORMAL PHYSICALLY, yet he can do all of these things without offending NCM. A character who has an INT of 21 has an exceptional IQ; one with a BOD 21 has exceptional will to live; a COM of 25 is incredibly gorgeous; but all are STILL NORMAL PHYSICALLY and affected by NCM.


I'm still baffled that not being able to buy superhuman characteristics isn't a disadvantage. That you can munchkin around it proves nothing more than you can munchkin.

You get points freed up by not buying the characteristics. It's not a Disadvantage. If it is then other restrictions on how you use your points should also be Disadvantages. The following, then, should all be costed out as disadvantages:

Cannot buy characteristics above NCM
Characteristics above NCM cost 50% more
Can't buy Powers without Foci or Talent limitations (variants for them costing extra)
Can't buy skill rolls above 15- (or they cost extra)
Power Advantages cost Double (or you can't have them at all)
Magic-Dead Cannot buy spells (certainly limiting in a fantasy game)
Cannot Have Limitations Above -1/2
Limitations Above -1/2 are Halved
Can't have Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities (or their value is halved)

Or even

Cannot Take Disadvantages Limiting How Points are Spent (except this one) ;)


Why does something have to be immediately active in order to limit?

So does "Not in a Vacuum" limit in a fantasy game, or Hatred of Orcs disadvantage in a 1920's Untouchables game? Does the value of "Only In Intense Magnetic Fields" vary if you have the ability to create one, or you have DF: Always Radiates Intense Magnetic Field?


If the character falls into human range, where possibilities exist to allow the character higher stats and the player chooses to limit the character with NCM, why not allow it?

If the character is magic-dead, where possibilities exist to allow the character magic spells and the player chooses to limit the character with No Spells Allowed or Spells Cost Double, why not allow it?

If the character is a gadgeteer, where possibilities exist to allow the character mutant powers and the player chooses to limit the character with No Mutant Powers or Mutations Cost Double, why not allow it?


The characters get experience, and you know, some day he might want to jack his DEX up above 20. Suddenly, there's a point cost issue involved, that the player chose at onset.

The character gets experience and wants a 30 DEX, so rather than spend 50 points on DEX, selling back 1 SPD, he either spends 20 on DEX, selling back 1 SPD, and 20 on buying off his Disad, or he takes +10 DEX, No Figured for 20, since Limited characteristics are powers and powers aren't subject to NCM.

I liken this to "Cannot Leap". Despite being written up as a physical limitation, the value of the disad is always equal to the cost of the inches of Leaping given up. The value of NCM, by the same logic, should be the extra points paid for characteristics exceeding the NCM level.

[Utech]

The characters get experience, and you know, some day he might want to jack his DEX up above 20. Suddenly, there's a point cost issue involved, that the player chose at onset.

The character is welcome to NCM at the onset. But it's worth 0 points because it in no way disadvantages him at the onset.

If it later disadvantages him, it has some value -- not necessarily full value.

[steamteck]

OK, I can say it again. A character who can fly, read minds, spit gouts of flame and shield himself in a screen of force is NOT NORMAL PHYSICALLY, yet he can do all of these things without offending NCM. A character who has an INT of 21 has an exceptional IQ; one with a BOD 21 has exceptional will to live; a COM of 25 is incredibly gorgeous; but all are STILL NORMAL PHYSICALLY and affected by NCM.

You get points freed up by not buying the characteristics. It's not a Disadvantage. If it is then other restrictions on how you use your points should also be Disadvantages. The following, then, should all be costed out as disadvantages:

.

I'll be brief and say the first point hovers between so what and completely irrelevant to the intend of the disadvantage. Both your examples work fine for me and I gave NO PROBLEM WITH THEM. I'm sorry you apparently can't see the superhuman ability but basically normal human physically difference but its there and part of lots of stories in varied genres

The 2nd point just doesn't wash.The points freed up just don't make up for not having superhuman stats. You should run a multiverse campaign where heroic and superheroic characters mix and you'll understand better what I mean.

[Hugh Neilson]

The 2nd point just doesn't wash.The points freed up just don't make up for not having superhuman stats. You should run a multiverse campaign where heroic and superheroic characters mix and you'll understand better what I mean.

I've run several characters with normal human stats in superhuman games, and I've seen several others played. They have not been ineffective or disadvantaged. Even if they were, losing 20 points of other disadvantages would not go far towards leveling the playing field.

If the "problem" is that characteristics are too effective, fix characteristics. I have come to believe that the problem is not that characteristics are inherently underpriced, but that the costs of purchasing the same benefits as provided by characteristics in another manner (figured, most notably REC, STUN and END; skill levels; lightning reflexes) are generally overpriced.

[steamteck]

I've run several characters with normal human stats in superhuman games, and I've seen several others played. They have not been ineffective or disadvantaged. Even if they were, losing 20 points of other disadvantages would not go far towards leveling the playing field.

If the "problem" is that characteristics are too effective, fix characteristics. I have come to believe that the problem is not that characteristics are inherently underpriced, but that the costs of purchasing the same benefits as provided by characteristics in another manner (figured, most notably REC, STUN and END; skill levels; lightning reflexes) are generally overpriced.


I think 20 points covers it just fine actually. Anyway I've had my say. I think we're at an impasse. Cheers!;)

[Greywind]

The character is welcome to NCM at the onset. But it's worth 0 points because it in no way disadvantages him at the onset.

If it later disadvantages him, it has some value -- not necessarily full value.
...except I've already stated, I don't see it as a disadvantage...

[Utech]

...except I've already stated, I don't see it as a disadvantage...

Then we're all good.

No disadvantage, no Disadvantage points. :thumbup:

[Greywind]

And if you read back, you'll see where I commented that I see it as more of a concept discount, similar to that granted by frameworks. It just has a set value.

[Utech]

And if you read back, you'll see where I commented that I see it as more of a concept discount, similar to that granted by frameworks. It just has a set value.

Feel free to implement that. While you're at it, you may want to implement a few more:
Normal Powers Maxima
Normal Skills Maxima
Normal Talents Maxima
Normal Advantages Maxima
Normal Disadvantages Maxima

All quite reasonable concept discounts. None -- including NCM -- I'd include in the rulebook as a concept discount. The beauty of HERO is that you're encouraged to tinker. Go for it!

[Lucius]

I think when I get SHRED, or whatever we call the next Edition, I'll try to recreate the Normal Human and the Florist Friars.

If I can't do it, I'll have to acknowledge that the system has improved.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders if Lucius will miss the problems once they're gone.

[ghost-angel]

I need to remember to return to this thread at the end of the week after at least some people have seen 6E so I can finally talk about it. . .

[Kdansky]

I think when I get SHRED, or whatever we call the next Edition, I'll try to recreate the Normal Human and the Florist Friars.

If I can't do it, I'll have to acknowledge that the system has improved.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders if Lucius will miss the problems once they're gone.
I am looking SO forward to this. :)

[Yansuf]

Perhaps taking NCM should also make the character's Primary Characteristics start at 8 instead of 10 because he's a "Normal Character"?

Excellent point!

Question for those whose position is NCM shouldn't get points unless the character buys characteristics over normal:
If I make a mentalist with STR=18, Dex=18, Con=18, Int=28 & Ego =23, I get 20 disadvantage points and pay an extra 8+6=14 for my characteristics, for a net gain of 6,
Does this advantage me, or disadvantage me?

[steamteck]

I think when I get SHRED, or whatever we call the next Edition, I'll try to recreate the Normal Human and the Florist Friars.

If I can't do it, I'll have to acknowledge that the system has improved.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders if Lucius will miss the problems once they're gone.

And if its because its simply been dropped I will disagree. I think the difference between being a non superhuman and a true superhuman should have some rules governing it and accepting those limits should have a point benefit. I'm rather thinking it won't but maybe in the Advanced character Guide.

[Lucius]

And if its because its simply been dropped I will disagree. I think the difference between being a non superhuman and a true superhuman should have some rules governing it and accepting those limits should have a point benefit. I'm rather thinking it won't but maybe in the Advanced character Guide.

I agree with part of this. In fact, I'll repeat it louder:

I think the difference between being a non superhuman and a true superhuman should have some rules governing it and accepting those limits should have a point benefit.

That's something the Hero System hasn't had yet, but could certainly use.

Preferably with some permutations and variations that allow a player to define exactly what that means for any given character, and maybe notes on further implementing the concept. For example, rather than a Physical Limitation that restricts the character's STR and powers from doing Knockback by default and increases their END cost, maybe a suggestion that the character's STR and powers should take those Limitations.

Lucius Alexander

And an inefficiently built palindromedary with severely abnormal psychological issues.

[ghost-angel]

I dunno if I can actually talk about 6E yet, since the PDFs have been in the world for consumption for just over 11 hours...

but your Character Builds are no longer valid under 6E. I'll leave off getting into detail until I get permission from Steve (I'll ask him tomorrow) or the 19th.

[Katherine]

I dunno if I can actually talk about 6E yet, since the PDFs have been in the world for consumption for just over 11 hours...

but your Character Builds are no longer valid under 6E. I'll leave off getting into detail until I get permission from Steve (I'll ask him tomorrow) or the 19th.

The PDF is already up for purchase? Cool!

[GamePhil]

The PDF is already up for purchase? Cool!

Not unless you're at GenCon, more's the pity. But soon.

[ghost-angel]

Normal Characteristic Maxima are now a campaign parameter. You can't take a Complication for being that way unless the GM allows one to be taken (I'd suggest a Physical Limitation).

You either have it or you don't.

The point different between a Normal Human and a Superhuman is how many points the Superhuman spent on being Superhuman, it's that simply. If the Normal Human leaves their STR at 10 and the superhuman buys it to 50 then the Superhuman has a 40 point price difference in their comparative stat.

Complications work mechanically the same as Disadvantages, but are thematically different and should be looked at differently.

If being a Normal Human is never going to be a problem to the Normal, then it's not worth points as a Complication.

[Lucius]

I dunno if I can actually talk about 6E yet, since the PDFs have been in the world for consumption for just over 11 hours...

but your Character Builds are no longer valid under 6E. I'll leave off getting into detail until I get permission from Steve (I'll ask him tomorrow) or the 19th.

Just so I'm clear on this:

Would the Florist Friars be possible under the New Regime if I just replace the Age disad with, say, Unluck?

From what I hear, the Normal Human is now so much scrap metal (Good!) but the Florist Friars are still going strong (Not So Good!)

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary intones that only Steve Long can prevent Florist Friars.

[Hugh Neilson]

Just so I'm clear on this:

Would the Florist Friars be possible under the New Regime if I just replace the Age disad with, say, Unluck?

From what I hear, the Normal Human is now so much scrap metal (Good!) but the Florist Friars are still going strong (Not So Good!)

I think there would be no difficulty building these characters in 6e, just like there would be no difficulty building them in 5e, and every prior edition.

It remains up to the playing group to enforce genre and character concept. One means of doing so would be to state, absolutely, that characters in this game are Normal Humans, and may not have stats above the limits set by the GM accordingly. In other games, the characters might be Legendary Humans, with the game parameters allowing one stat, or two stats, or a group of related stats (as defined in the game parameters themselves) to exceed the Normal Human range, but not exceed the Legendary Range. This might be at normal cost, or could entail an enhanced cost.

In other words, it's up to the GM and the players to define the parameters of their game. Allowing a 30 DEX, 10 OCV, 10 DCV, 6 SPD character in a "normal humans" game remains the gamers' problem, not the game's. So does allowing a Fantasy Elf Wizard in a modern mercenaries and spies game.

[Lucius]

I think there would be no difficulty building these characters in 6e, just like there would be no difficulty building them in 5e, and every prior edition.

It remains up to the playing group to enforce genre and character concept. One means of doing so would be to state, absolutely, that characters in this game are Normal Humans, and may not have stats above the limits set by the GM accordingly. In other games, the characters might be Legendary Humans, with the game parameters allowing one stat, or two stats, or a group of related stats (as defined in the game parameters themselves) to exceed the Normal Human range, but not exceed the Legendary Range. This might be at normal cost, or could entail an enhanced cost.

In other words, it's up to the GM and the players to define the parameters of their game. Allowing a 30 DEX, 10 OCV, 10 DCV, 6 SPD character in a "normal humans" game remains the gamers' problem, not the game's. So does allowing a Fantasy Elf Wizard in a modern mercenaries and spies game.


So we still have the Flintmobile.

Do we still have the Defender Exploit?

Lucius Alexander

I'll always have a palindromedary, but there's nothing munchkin about that.

[JmOz]

the only thing about the so called defender exploit is now that you can't take the disad everyone benefits equaly from it...

[ghost-angel]

You can no longer take Normal Human Maxima or Aged as Complications - you simply buy your Characteristics/Abilities to the appropriate level to simulate the SFX of "Normal Human" and "Aged."

If that's what you're talking about with "flintmobile" and "Defender exploit"

[Lucius]

You can no longer take Normal Human Maxima or Aged as Complications - you simply buy your Characteristics/Abilities to the appropriate level to simulate the SFX of "Normal Human" and "Aged."

If that's what you're talking about with "flintmobile" and "Defender exploit"

By "Flintmobile" I'm referring to the use of Normal Characteristic Maxima as a default rule for heroic games, not as a Disadvantage in superheroic games. I explained earlier in the thread why I call that the Flintmobile.

I didn't originate the phrase "Defender Exploit" - I first saw it used several years ago online in reference to buying a Characteristic as a Power in order to not have to pay the doubled cost for it. If we still have the Flintmobile, we probably still have the Defender Exploit, and if we don't, we have a situation perhaps even more absurd (as was also pointed out earlier in the thread.)

Lucius Alexander

And another inefficiently built palindromedary with severely abnormal psychological issues.

[ghost-angel]

NCM is a Campaign Setting you can put on any game. It's there as a tool for the GM to set up their game. We're using 25 for the Six top stats in our Star Hero Campaign.

[Lucius]

I'm looking it over now.

This is a Normal Characteristics Maxima I could almost live with. I still say you're better off with either a simple hard or soft "cap" but if the system has to have a "limit you can exceed by paying more points" concept, this looks like the way to do it.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that, so far, nothing in it prevents florist friars.

[Lucius]

I finally took the plunge and downloaded the update to use Hero Designer for 6th Edition.

And here is the first character I made under the new regime!

I don't plan to do Brother Orchid, let alone the Normal Human - unless someone really wants me to.



Brother Rose, "The Flying Monk"
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]
13 DEX 6 12- OCV: 5/DCV: 6
13 CON 3 12-
9 BODY -1
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3 - 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6

3/5 PD 1 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)
3/5 ED 1 Total: 3/5 ED (0/2 rED)
6 SPD 20 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
8 REC 4
30 END 2
20 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 69

Movement:
Running: 7m/14m
Flight: 7m/28m
Leaping: 5m/10m
Swimming: 1m/2m

Cost Powers END
40 Sort of the point...: +2 SPD, Cost Doubled for Exceeding 4 (+1) (40 Active Points)
10 The Flying Monk: Flight 7m, x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (24 Active Points); Conditional Power Only if already made a full move Running that phase; can only go noncombat if already used noncombat Running (-1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (Secret herbal potion; -1/4) 2
3 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow: Resistant Protection (2 PD/2 ED) (6 Active Points); Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/4), Unified Power (The Flying Monk; -1/4) [1 cc]
2 Regeneration (1 BODY per 6 Hours) (6 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2) [6 bc]
Notes: Brother Rose's special herbal potions only seem to work for him, but unfortunately not everyone believes that...
He's Fast!
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/10, Target Falls
3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 25 STR for holding on

Skills
3 Breakfall 12-
3 Acrobatics 12-
3 Paramedics 12-
3 Bureaucratics 12-
3 Trading 12-
0 Language: English (idiomatic)
2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)
3 Jack of All Trades
2 1) PS: Florist 12-
2 2) PS: Flower Arranging 12-
2 3) PS: Gardener 12-
2 4) PS: Herbalist 12-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Canon Law 12-
2 2) KS: Flowers 12-
2 3) KS: Herblore 12-
2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes Through the City 12-

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 105
Total Cost: 174

100+ Disadvantages
15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid Very Frequently (Slightly Less Powerful than the PC)
15 Psychological Complication: Monastic Vows (Common; Strong)
5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
10 Social Complication: Holy Orders Infrequently, Major
10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)
5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preparations Infrequently (As Pow; Mildly Punish)
15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors Infrequently (Mo Pow; NCI; PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find; Watching)

Total Disadvantage Points: 75

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.


Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.


Campaign Use: Florist Friar

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.


Lucius Alexander

Copyright, Palindromedary Enterprises

[Ki-rin]

I completely disagree with those that think NCM is a useless concept or game mechanic.

I've routinely used it and enforced all the implications of it in every HERO campaign I've ever run. It helps me keep game balance and a logically consistent campaign world.

TBF, I base it on stats 1.25x higher than the book version of NCM.

I also use every other mechanic HERO gives me to make my game universe and combat within that universe as realistic or logically consistent as possible.

In my 4ed or 5ed Champions campaigns, I figure non-super agents will have Dex of 11-25
(base CV of 4-8, average of 5-6) and the supers will have Dex of 17-31
(base CV of 6-10, average 7-8).
Usually the average agent will be at -3 vs the average super. As individuals, this means they'll hit almost 26% of the time.
When working as trained fire teams of 2-4 per team, agents have a decent chance of being a threat to just about any individual PC super. (NPC demi-gods or the like are a different matter, but that's why the PC heros exist.)

SPD is usually 3-7 (average 4-5), with the slowest supers being allowed to have the largest defenses and DC attacks, while the fastest supers have the lowest defenses and DC attacks.

I've had everything from SPD 2 to SPD 8 characters and been able to keep things game balanced.

It'll be interesting to see what 6ed lack of figured stats does to all of this.

EDIT: I also tend to make combat more deadly than what is standard.
It is fairly common for me to balance things so the average defense is 1.5x -1.75x the average attack. Players tend to respect combat in my games.

[bigbywolfe]

Ki-rin, you may notice that most people that don't like NCM don't like it as Disadvantage (which it no longer is in 6E anyway). Most people don't seem have a problem with it as an optional campaign rule, and if they do, well that's just silly because it's no more or less arbitrary than any other campaign limits.

[Ki-rin]

Ki-rin, you may notice that most people that don't like NCM don't like it as Disadvantage (which it no longer is in 6E anyway). Most people don't seem have a problem with it as an optional campaign rule, and if they do, well that's just silly because it's no more or less arbitrary than any other campaign limits.
In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

I honor it. And I enforce it.

[ideasmith]

In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

I honor it. And I enforce it.

When a genetically normal superhero is written up in Hero System, the character would lose more points than it would gain from taking NCM.

Therefore, unless you want to discourage Batman/Hawkeye types, such characters should not have NCM.

[steamteck]

When a genetically normal superhero is written up in Hero System, the character would lose more points than it would gain from taking NCM.

Therefore, unless you want to discourage Batman/Hawkeye types, such characters should not have NCM.


Sounds like a problem with your write ups to me. Just face it, such sweeping statements do not stand up to all campaigns and there are campaigns like Ki-rin's and mine where it works just fine and is a useful tool.

[Hugh Neilson]

In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

I honor it. And I enforce it.

If I'm going to allow a disadvantage for "This character pays double for characteristics above 20/other limits", then I want to know the disadvantage value for the following:

- character pays 50% more for characteristics above the same limit
- character pays triple for characteristics above the same limit
- character can never buy characteristics over the NCM limit
- character pays 50% more, double or triple for characteristics over 30 (adjust characteristics whose usual max isn't 20 pro rata), or may never buy them
- character cannot buy Mental Powers (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy Frameworks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy Ranged Attacks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy powers that could not be achieved by a normal human (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy skill rolls greater than 14- (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- how are these modified if placing a power modifier on the characteristic does not circumvent the restriction?

etc. etc. etc.

No one takes NCM if the result would be paying more than 20 extra for characteristics. Instead, they find another concept ("my highly dextrous archer is also a mutant/has alien DNA/was bitten by a radioactive mongoose/whatever").

NCM as a disadvantage either awards points for your choice of character design (where it is optional), or penalizes the "trained human" archetype (where it is imposed on all such characters).

[Peregrine]

If I'm going to allow a disadvantage for "This character pays double for characteristics above 20/other limits", then I want to know the disadvantage value for the following:

- character pays 50% more for characteristics above the same limit
- character pays triple for characteristics above the same limit
- character can never buy characteristics over the NCM limit
- character pays 50% more, double or triple for characteristics over 30 (adjust characteristics whose usual max isn't 20 pro rata), or may never buy them
- character cannot buy Mental Powers (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy Frameworks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy Ranged Attacks (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy powers that could not be achieved by a normal human (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- character cannot buy skill rolls greater than 14- (or pays 50% more, double or triple)
- how are these modified if placing a power modifier on the characteristic does not circumvent the restriction?

etc. etc. etc.

No one takes NCM if the result would be paying more than 20 extra for characteristics. Instead, they find another concept ("my highly dextrous archer is also a mutant/has alien DNA/was bitten by a radioactive mongoose/whatever").

NCM as a disadvantage either awards points for your choice of character design (where it is optional), or penalizes the "trained human" archetype (where it is imposed on all such characters).

This is, IMSWAG, part of why CM is not a Complication in 6e. The other part (again, IMSWAG) is that Complications are story-driven (their value depends on the frequency with which the Complication routinely affects the story), while CM is a mechanical restriction on character construction. How often would CM routinely* affect the story?

*as opposed to unusual or contrived circumstances

[Ki-rin]

In a world where some % of the population literally has "powers above and beyond the ken of Men", you effectively have separate sub-species of humanity.

Homo Sapien Sapiens has NCM.

Homo Sapien Super is literally different on a genetic level to allow their bodies and minds to attain stats well beyond what the genome of sapiens sapiens can attain.

Part of the immediate tension in such a world is the underlying backdrop of a species of humanity fighting to not follow Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis into extinction.
...and it's not clear which subspecies should or would be more worried about it.
(On top of that, you have extremists who want to force the issue to resolve in a particular outcome.)

As a natural evolutionary response to HS Super, HS Sapiens has begun producing its own version of supers. Some are magic based. Some technology based. Some "merely" trained at an intensity level all but unhead of before this. And yes, some are the results of accidents and experiments that result in some form of ubermensch.

Thus you can have supers that come from both gene pools.

In such a world, taking NCM is a DisAd for a super as well as an efficiency reward for certain character concepts.

[Hugh Neilson]

In a world where some % of the population literally has "powers above and beyond the ken of Men", you effectively have separate sub-species of humanity.

Homo Sapien Sapiens has NCM.

Homo Sapien Super is literally different on a genetic level to allow their bodies and minds to attain stats well beyond what the genome of sapiens sapiens can attain.

Part of the immediate tension in such a world is the underlying backdrop of a species of humanity fighting to not follow Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis into extinction.
...and it's not clear which subspecies should or would be more worried about it.
(On top of that, you have extremists who want to force the issue to resolve in a particular outcome.)

As a natural evolutionary response to HS Super, HS Sapiens has begun producing its own version of supers. Some are magic based. Some technology based. Some "merely" trained at an intensity level all but unhead of before this. And yes, some are the results of accidents and experiments that result in some form of ubermensch.

Thus you can have supers that come from both gene pools.

In such a world, taking NCM is a DisAd for a super as well as an efficiency reward for certain character concepts.

How does it Disadvantage the character? It requires him to spend extra points for certain effects, but he either spends the points or he doesn't. You won't see any "normal humans" with stats that cost double to an extent that NCM becomes a significant issue. The fact that I didn't spend points on a ranged attack means I cannot attack at range, which means I am disadvantaged. It doesn't get me a Disadvantage worth points. I got points by NOT spending them on ranged attacks. Being unable to fly is a disadvantage if I fall off a building, but I don't take a Disadvantage - I get to spend the points on something other than Flight. And NOT buying higher characteristics provides points to spend on something else - not a Disadvantage.

In the game world you describe, the species difference might well provide a basis for complications - social limitations, psychological limitations, etc. But "how you spend your points" should not be a Disadvantage. Why can't the Mutant take disadvantage points for "can't use magic" or "doesn't carry technological devices"? He's disadvantaged by the Drains against mutant powers.

[jtelson]

The fact that I didn't spend points on a ranged attack means I cannot attack at range, which means I am disadvantaged. It doesn't get me a Disadvantage worth points. I got points by NOT spending them on ranged attacks. Being unable to fly is a disadvantage if I fall off a building, but I don't take a Disadvantage - I get to spend the points on something other than Flight. And NOT buying higher characteristics provides points to spend on something else - not a Disadvantage.

This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th, characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.

This does not address the idea of what disadvantages/complications should be - that's a design philosophy issue.

[Ki-rin]

NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do. Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.

To do so would require the ability to develop stats far beyond what HS Sapiens genetic code allows for.

Such people have always been among us. They are members of HS Super.

HS Super bodies literally use a different way of transmitting nerve impules and have types of muscle and bone tissue NCM humans do not. Some of them have a radically different auto-immune system than NCM humans. And on and on and on.
Think about the real biology and physical changes that would have to occur for a human to be able to perceive, think, or move 2-4x or more faster than a NCM human. Let alone the changes needed to suport STR, CON, and DEX 4x, 8x, 16x, etc that of a NCM human.

Even "unactualized" HS Super can survive environments and accidents that NCM humans have no chance of. (_Unbreakable_ is about such an example HS Super.)
This is the source of many of those "miraculous" deeds and survivals on the part of some.
Yes, some were about lucky HS sapiens. But most of them were events that involved a member of HS super.

Taking NCM means that you as the player and I as the GM agree that your PC is basically a being of what we ITRW consider normal flesh and blood.
And I get to =use= that both to put limits on the direction and extent of your stat development and to imperil you in ways Homo Sapiens Super can't be.

[Peregrine]

NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do. Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.

To do so would require the ability to develop stats far beyond what HS Sapiens genetic code allows for.

Such people have always been among us. They are members of HS Super.

HS Super bodies literally use a different way of transmitting nerve impules and have types of muscle and bone tissue NCM humans do not. Some of them have a radically different auto-immune system than NCM humans. And on and on and on.
Think about the real biology and physical changes that would have to occur for a human to be able to perceive, think, or move 2-4x or more faster than a NCM human. Let alone the changes needed to suport STR, CON, and DEX 4x, 8x, 16x, etc that of a NCM human.

Even "unactualized" HS Super can survive environments and accidents that NCM humans have no chance of. (_Unbreakable_ is about such an example HS Super.)
This is the source of many of those "miraculous" deeds and survivals on the part of some.
Yes, some were about lucky HS sapiens. But most of them were events that involved a member of HS super.

Taking NCM means that you as the player and I as the GM agree that your PC is basically a being of what we ITRW consider normal flesh and blood.
And I get to =use= that both to put limits on the direction and extent of your stat development and to imperil you in ways Homo Sapiens Super can't be.

Then you have exercised your Right of Houserule and are using NCM far beyond the 5eR RAW and completely outside the scope of 6e CM. Right of Houserule means that, if it works for your gaming group, You're Doing It Right =For You=. It also means that it is not necessarily applicable to The Rest Of Us - and for me it is not.

[Ki-rin]

As I've said before, I'm a =very= big believer in Logical Consistency.

Supers are not ordinary humans unless they somehow flag that they are via NCM or somesuch.

Being "merely mortal" (ie NCM) is not a DisAd in a Heroic campaign. Being "merely mortal" in a SuperHeroic campaign is most definitely a DisAd.

The logical consequences of being "merely mortal" are simply the side effects of taking the NCM DisAd.

I do not screw players just because they've taken a DisAd.
I do make sure there are in-game consequences for taking any given DisAd. Including NCM.

[steamteck]

Then you have exercised your Right of Houserule and are using NCM far beyond the 5eR RAW and completely outside the scope of 6e CM. Right of Houserule means that, if it works for your gaming group, You're Doing It Right =For You=. It also means that it is not necessarily applicable to The Rest Of Us - and for me it is not.


I've basically done the same thing. Its something its a pity 6E didn't address properly IMO. I admit I do get really tired of the vibe from some ( not you) that it is a stupid disadvantage/complication and it inherently will cause all sorts of problems it never has for our group in 20 plus years of gaming and that does make me a little touchy.

[ghost-angel]

A Disadvantage/Complication should only be take if a Player wants that to be part of the game they are in.

If I want to declare my Batman Clone a "Normal Human" but never take NCM that means I don't want the Normal Human part of the character to either Complicate my life, or even play out in stories with the very rare exception.

From a strict Mechanical POV of NCM in 5E and previous, it was either a Munchkin Gimme (never was gonna buy my stats over that anyways, except as Powers) or Cost Broken. But that's mechanics for you.

[Ki-rin]

A Disadvantage/Complication should only be take if a Player wants that to be part of the game they are in.

If I want to declare my Batman Clone a "Normal Human" but never take NCM that means I don't want the Normal Human part of the character to either Complicate my life, or even play out in stories with the very rare exception.
Hence the Bat "man" in his ordinary titles vs the Bat "god" in his JLA appearances dichotomy.


From a strict Mechanical POV of NCM in 5E and previous, it was either a Munchkin Gimme (never was gonna buy my stats over that anyways, except as Powers) or Cost Broken. But that's mechanics for you.
Here we will have to just Agree To Disagree.

NCM is no more or no less a "muchkin gimme" or "cost broken" than any other DisAd or Limitation.

[ghost-angel]

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.

Also - I said BatMAN. I'm going to play Batman, I will be a normal guy in a bat costume with gadgets. I will play in a Superhero Campaign, most of my stuff will take a Focus Limitation, but I'll have some non-combat stuff to help round out the group. I won't take NCM, but I will keep all my Characteristics within those limits anyways.

See? probably not.

[Ki-rin]

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.
*shrug* and that somehow makes it a -bad- thing?

The whole point of HERO is conceptual flexibility within a balance tested point based cost system.


Also - I said BatMAN. I'm going to play Batman, I will be a normal guy in a bat costume with gadgets. I will play in a Superhero Campaign, most of my stuff will take a Focus Limitation, but I'll have some non-combat stuff to help round out the group. I won't take NCM, but I will keep all my Characteristics within those limits anyways.

See? probably not.
I actually do see what you mean pretty darn clearly.

But you seem to missing the point that what makes Batman "Batgod" in his JLA appearances is not that he's been "pimped" to superhuman power levels.

It is exactly that his being a "mere mortal" is never more than a temporary disadvantage.

The DC Trinity is Superman, Wonderwoman, and Batman exactly because he does not let the fact that his body is "merely human" stop him from doing whatever he can to out-think, out-prepare, and out-fight whoever his opponent is. Even Clark and Diana if it comes down to it.

He is utterly ruthless in both his use of himself and others, even if the others are demi-gods, in accomplishing his chosen goal.
...and his goals are always what he feels is best for Humanity. No matter what the cost to himself.

In stark contrast, the Batman books dwell far more on Batman having human foibles and various physical and psychological weaknesses
(Bane would never have out-thought or out-fought the JLA Batman.)

In one "campaign", Batman is a "normal human" who does not let that get in the way of him doing whatever he can to be most effective.
In the other, Batman has Physical and Psychological Limitations. Including NCM.

[Lucius]

As I've said before, I'm a =very= big believer in Logical Consistency.

So am I. That's why I'm opposed to Normal Characteristic Maxima in all manifestations, although I admit that the Current Regime's version is a considerable improvement over the past.



The whole point of HERO is conceptual flexibility within a balance tested point based cost system.


Which is why the new version is better – it is a lot more flexible, as I understand it so far.


Ki-rin, you may notice that most people that don't like NCM don't like it as Disadvantage (which it no longer is in 6E anyway). Most people don't seem have a problem with it as an optional campaign rule, and if they do, well that's just silly because it's no more or less arbitrary than any other campaign limits.

I haven't noticed that “most people that don't like NCM don't like it as Disadvantage” and I certainly don't like it in any case.

Ki-rin, some of the things you say make excellent sense, except for one thing – you're saying them about Normal Characteristic Maxima. For example, you have said this:


In a supers campaign, NCM =is= a Disadvantage.

NCM is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

Therefore NCM is and should be a Disadvantage.

I honor it. And I enforce it.

It would make more sense to say something like this:


In a supers campaign, being a “Normal Human” =is= a Disadvantage.

being a “Normal Human” is why humans, no matter how skilled or well trained, are no match for even non EP or other "more mundane" supers at some point.

A player who wishes to play a genetically normal human in such a setting where they will be regularly going up against supers is at a disadvantage.

Therefore being a “Normal Human” is and should be a Disadvantage.

I honor it. And I enforce it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I support the idea of having a Disadvantage that makes a character a “mere mortal” or “only Human” in a superhero world. Such Disadvantages have been discussed elsewhere, and I think in this thread I have addressed ways to realize the concept.

But that has nothing to do with NCM. Zero. Zip.



NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do.

I really don't like flatly contradicting people, but....

It is not the case, in SHRED, FRED, or in any edition whatsoever of Hero, that “NCM limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do.” There is nothing that NCM prevents you from doing – it only makes some things more expensive. That is, unless you have made a house rule specifying that it is so.


Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.


Again, this is simply and flatly not the case. Name me any attack or environment stress and I will hand you a character with Normal Character Maxima who can withstand it. In fact, please do. I love doing stuff like that.



HS Super bodies literally use a different way of transmitting nerve impules and have types of muscle and bone tissue NCM humans do not. Some of them have a radically different auto-immune system than NCM humans. And on and on and on.
Think about the real biology and physical changes that would have to occur for a human to be able to perceive, think, or move 2-4x or more faster than a NCM human. Let alone the changes needed to suport STR, CON, and DEX 4x, 8x, 16x, etc that of a NCM human.

Okay, now you're getting deep, deep, deep into specific setting stuff that applies to your own campaign. Feel free to do so, I guess. But understand that not many people here play in your campaign or are ever likely to.



Taking NCM means that you as the player and I as the GM agree that your PC is basically a being of what we ITRW consider normal flesh and blood.
And I get to =use= that both to put limits on the direction and extent of your stat development and to imperil you in ways Homo Sapiens Super can't be.

Perhaps this is the case if you explain it beforehand. Someone who is only going by what is in the rules, or perhaps going by the rules plus a couple of decades of experience in games other than yours, may be in for a surprise. Perhaps they think that all they're agreeing to in putting NCM on the sheet is what the book says they're agreeing to – which is not what you say they're agreeing to.



Supers are not ordinary humans unless they somehow flag that they are via NCM or somesuch.

Somesuch, yes. I am starting to think the system desperately needs a somesuch. But NCM simply isn't a “flag” that identifies something as an ordinary Human. Or are you going to claim that my “Normal Human” character is exactly that in English as well as in Standard Bayangi?

If there is some kind of standard “normal in a super world” Complication in the New Dispensation, I missed it, but I really hope there is and wish there were if there's not.



Being "merely mortal" (ie NCM) is not a DisAd in a Heroic campaign.

Hm....if most of the player characters are assumed to be Demigods (Like many heroes of ancient Greece) maybe “Mere Mortal” could be a Disad...more likely though, I suppose, there'd be a “Package” of semi-divine attributes that “flag” the sons of wayward Gods as what they are.


Lucius Alexander

Son of a palindromedary!

[jtelson]

NCM is the only Disad that altered how points could be spent. So it's not like any other Disad in the game.

Some physical limits alter how you would be able to spend points but even if they didn't uniqueness should not be a criteria for exclusion. It's a 'I don't want in in my game - so it shouldn't be in the rules' attitude.

[Ki-rin]

Lucius,

NCM was the standard RAW way to differentiate heroic characters from super heroic ones.

Changing the name of the DisAd to "merely Human" is "merely symantics".

Tomato Tomahto. Potato Potahto. (Let's call the whole debate off.)

Not being able to swim is not a DisAd in a desert campaign. It definitely is as a sailor in an Age of Sail campaign.


Name me any attack or environment stress and I will hand you a character with Normal Character Maxima who can withstand it. In fact, please do. I love doing stuff like that.
As to your challenge. Pick any situation where you need a primary stat of 40 or a figured stat based on primary stat that high, and you have a situation where a NCM human basically can't succeed (or in some cases, survive) unless they are extraordinarily lucky.


Because HERO is often used to simulate a sort of cartoon physics where people are considerably less fragile than they are ITRW, it's fairly common to forget just how unrealistic HERO can be in this regard.
This is true even in Heroic HERO campaigns. It is especially true in Superheroic campaigns.

But even in HERO, what is a passing annoyance or inconvenience for a superhero is often =deadly= to a "merely heroic" character.

If a player chooses to play a hero in a superhero campaign, they have chosen to put themselves at greater hazard in an already dangerous profession. That's a DisAd. NCM is merely the game mechanic we use to quantify that DisAd.

It is no more or less "accurate" a simulation of all of the myriad ways a being of ordinary flesh and blood differs from a super than any other game mechanic in HERO is "accurate" at whatever that mechanic is simulating.

Making that simulation as accurate or logically consistent as we want while still making sure we all have fun (this is a game after all) is up to -us-, not the HERO system. HERO is our tool. Not the other way around.

In this case, the effect that needs to be simulated is the DisAd that "normal" humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns.
They also have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't.
NCM is intended to model that.

We as people get to choose how accurately we want to model any effect by how much we "sweat the details" . Often those details are things that we as players and GMs must impose above and beyond any immediate mechanic if we want to simulate a given effect accurately enough.

That true of every game mechanic ever made for every system ever made. Not just HERO.

[ghost-angel]

Some physical limits alter how you would be able to spend points but even if they didn't uniqueness should not be a criteria for exclusion. It's a 'I don't want in in my game - so it shouldn't be in the rules' attitude.

I never said that, for one thing.

I've never been particularly for or against NCM as a Disadvantage. I like the new model better, but that's because I think it's more useful.

[steamteck]

What I wanted was something like "mere mortal" which would be much more encompassing ( probably something Lucius would approve of from my take) . You can simulate it with physical limitations though if you really want to but it would have been nice to actually have an official option.

[jtelson]

I never said that, for one thing.

I've never been particularly for or against NCM as a Disadvantage. I like the new model better, but that's because I think it's more useful.

You are correct sir, and I apologize. What was your intent for saying the advantage was unique?

[Peregrine]

If there is some kind of standard “normal in a super world” Complication in the New Dispensation, I missed it, but I really hope there is and wish there were if there's not.


There isn't, and I for one am glad of it, because what that is and what effect that would have on both story and mechanics is too setting dependent. Further, the official CU setting explicitly does not have any such explicit dividing line (except for the dividing line between Legendary and Superhuman characteristics, and it is clear that a superhuman does not have to have any characteristics in the Superhuman range, while a non-superhuman can have characteristics in the Legendary range), and that is the default setting (though certainly not the exclusive setting - homebrews are as viable as they have ever been) for Superheroic campaigns.

Further reasons for the absence of any such Complication starts to get into design philosophy about what Complications are and are not, and why. I would recommend reading 6E1-414 and following (Chapter 9 - Complications) to get a clear understanding on what Complications are in 6e and how Complications differ from Disadvantages in 5eR and previous, because there is a very real difference, despite the very real similarities. One key part: Complications have a story impact; their frequency is set by "frequency of appearance in the story", not "frequency of the character's experience of the Complication in their life 24/7" (6E1-416; see especially the Frequency of Complication table)

[ghost-angel]

You are correct sir, and I apologize. What was your intent for saying the advantage was unique?

It's the only Disadvantage that forces a different Mechanical Standard on the Character by default. And, naturally, I wasn't totally on the mark (see below).

Sure, you're right you can model a Physical Limitation to do the same thing, but NCM is a System Level Sanction on such a thing.

Age (the other Disadvantage that does the same thing) and NCM both alter how a Character can spend points. More to the point (no pun intended) they are the only System Approved ways to change the Costs of Characteristics from the default setting for Single Character Only. Which is a significant piont.

Ki-Rin has found other uses for NCM to enforce the idea - but from a Strict Mechanical Point Only, all NCM does is change costs of things.

And it changes costs of things in a way that you probably a) weren't going to purchase anyway (making it a Disadvantage that doesn't Disadvantage) or b) Only purchase such a limited for of that the extra points are less than the Disadvantage is worth.

It is entirely possible to enforce Ki-Rin's model without NCM at all - I call it Speciall Effect Enforcement. If your overall SFX is "Normal Guy" then you don't ever get "Superheroic Aspects" naturally. Just like if your overall SFX is Fire Projection I'm going to look really displeased when you try and take Summon Blizzard.... That's just SFX enforcement.

Which is why I don't buy Ki-Rin's argument for NCM as a Disadvantage in any way.

[Peregrine]

NCM was the standard RAW way to differentiate heroic characters from super heroic ones.

This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.
This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.

[steamteck]

I'm glad you're happy but shutting out options in a toolkit sees a bad plan to me. I also find it fascinating in the difference you perceive in your statement. I ALWAYS felt what you feel the difference is about story related was true of disadvantages. I really don't see how it could have been interpreted the other way. It was always about the interaction with the story and screen time. So that difference is no difference to me.

[steamteck]

This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.
This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.


Right up there IMO ,with 5th edition damage shield.:D

[ghost-angel]

It seems to me, that a better way to use NCM in a Superheroic Setting would have been Physical Limitation: Normal Man In A Super World.

And then the Player and GM define exactly what that means, wether traditional NCM with Limits and price doubling break points, or something else entirely.

[ghost-angel]

I'm glad you're happy but shutting out options in a toolkit sees a bad plan to me. I also find it fascinating in the difference you perceive in your statement. I ALWAYS felt what you feel the difference is about story related was true of disadvantages. I really don't see how it could have been interpreted the other way. It was always about the interaction with the story and screen time. So that difference is no difference to me.

To whose comment was this directed at?

[jtelson]

And it changes costs of things in a way that you probably a) weren't going to purchase anyway (making it a Disadvantage that doesn't Disadvantage) or b) Only purchase such a limited for of that the extra points are less than the Disadvantage is worth.

A similar argument could be used to remove Psychological Limits from the system.

"I'm going to play my character as having a strong respect for life so he won't kill people, I can take Psych Limit: Code Against Killing"
"No, you were going to play it that way anyway so it's not really a disadvantage"

[ghost-angel]

The difference is something like a PsychLim dictates what you won't do as much as what you will do. But it doesn't affect the Mechanics of your character in any way, it's purely Roleplaying.

NCM affects the Mechanics directly by changing costs.

The first is a Roleplaying aspect; the second is a Metagame Alteration.

[Hugh Neilson]

NCM Limits you because it means there are some things you can =never= do. Some attacks and types of environmental stresses you can =never= adapt to, train for, or withstand.

To do so would require the ability to develop stats far beyond what HS Sapiens genetic code allows for.

So why can't I have a similar Disadvantage for other things I cannot purchase? My character can [B]never[B] become immune to disease. He can't adapt to it, train for it or withstand it. Human beings can't fly, read minds, project beams of force from their eyes or develop an armored carapace. All of those seem far more superhuman to me than developing a 21 STR or a 9 PD, but none of them are affected by NCM.

[Hugh Neilson]

This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th, characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.

So a 20 point flat disad makes up for all the variances in the value of characteristics versus other spending? Whether I would have otherwise had a 21 DEX and 5 SPD, or a 75 STR, 40 CON, 35 DEX and 8 SPD? In my experience, NCM gets taken after the player looks at the character he has designed, and realizes he could easily remain within the NCM limits without sacrificing the character's concept.

As well, a Characteristic with a Limitation (or other modifier) is a Power by the books, and NCM has no impact on the cost of powers. Defender is the classic example, but even STR that Costs END or enhanced abilities that only work if you don't cut your hair (a -0 limitation is still a modifier - Power instead of Characteristic) technically avoids the NCM limitations

[jtelson]

So a 20 point flat disad makes up for all the variances in the value of characteristics versus other spending? Whether I would have otherwise had a 21 DEX and 5 SPD, or a 75 STR, 40 CON, 35 DEX and 8 SPD? In my experience, NCM gets taken after the player looks at the character he has designed, and realizes he could easily remain within the NCM limits without sacrificing the character's concept.

I don't know if a 20 point flat disad makes up for it - I do know that it is significantly disadvantageous - past that it becomes negotiation. As for your experience, it differs somewhat from mine.


As well, a Characteristic with a Limitation (or other modifier) is a Power by the books, and NCM has no impact on the cost of powers. Defender is the classic example, but even STR that Costs END or enhanced abilities that only work if you don't cut your hair (a -0 limitation is still a modifier - Power instead of Characteristic) technically avoids the NCM limitations

A phrase that I've seen knocking about that is particularly appropriate here. The System is not your Babysitter.

The rule allows for some reasonable builds but can be exploited; like Multiform or Duplication the GM needs to determine where the line is.

[Hugh Neilson]

A phrase that I've seen knocking about that is particularly appropriate here. The System is not your Babysitter.

The rule allows for some reasonable builds but can be exploited; like Multiform or Duplication the GM needs to determine where the line is.

Unlike Multiform or Duplication, I cannot think of a single character that could not be constructed in the system without NCM existing. Without it, I simply buy the Normal Characteristic stats my character would have, and spend my points in order areas. Exactly the same character, except I need another 20 points of disadvantages that actually mean something in play.

[jtelson]

The difference is something like a PsychLim dictates what you won't do as much as what you will do. But it doesn't affect the Mechanics of your character in any way, it's purely Roleplaying.

NCM affects the Mechanics directly by changing costs.

The first is a Roleplaying aspect; the second is a Metagame Alteration.

Well, there are mechanics for overcoming Psych Limits in play but more to the point though this then isn't a "Is this disadvantagous" but "Is this what I think Disads Should Be" issue.

[jtelson]

Unlike Multiform or Duplication, I cannot think of a single character that could not be constructed in the system without NCM existing. Without it, I simply buy the Normal Characteristic stats my character would have, and spend my points in order areas. Exactly the same character, except I need another 20 points of disadvantages that actually mean something in play.

Not a question of can you build it, it's a question of are you disadvantaged by building it that way.

[ghost-angel]

Well, there are mechanics for overcoming Psych Limits in play but more to the point though this then isn't a "Is this disadvantagous" but "Is this what I think Disads Should Be" issue.

more explcitely then:

Psyc Lims do no alter how you spend points on a character.
NCM does.

That's altering a character in a completely different way. One only works once you get into play, the other works primarily before play ever starts - that makes it a MetaGame Disadvantage versus a Gameplay Disadvantage.

Here, let me use another example:

Disadvantage: Age 40+ - changes your Characteristic Block Maximums.
Social Limitation: Over 40. - will affect how people treat you in play, as "the old guy" but doesn't actually affect how you build your character.

Metagame vs Gameplay.

[jtelson]

more explcitely then:

Psyc Lims do no alter how you spend points on a character.
NCM does.

That's altering a character in a completely different way. One only works once you get into play, the other works primarily before play ever starts - that makes it a MetaGame Disadvantage versus a Gameplay Disadvantage.

Here, let me use another example:

Disadvantage: Age 40+ - changes your Characteristic Block Maximums.
Social Limitation: Over 40. - will affect how people treat you in play, as "the old guy" but doesn't actually affect how you build your character.

Metagame vs Gameplay.

I would argue that Character Creation and Advancement is part of Gameplay, however, the real questions here are "Why is the distinction relevant?" and/or "How does that matter to the idea of being disadvantaged?"

[ghost-angel]

To some it matters a great deal.

[Ki-rin]

So why can't I have a similar Disadvantage for other things I cannot purchase? My character can [B]never[B] become immune to disease. He can't adapt to it, train for it or withstand it. Human beings can't fly, read minds, project beams of force from their eyes or develop an armored carapace. All of those seem far more superhuman to me than developing a 21 STR or a 9 PD, but none of them are affected by NCM.
But how often do those limitations matter in actual campaign play?
A limitation that never matters in play is de facto not limiting and therefore

"A limitation that does not actually limit the character is not worth points."

The bedrock principle of the entire DisAd system.

If everyone else in the campaign, or even an overwhelmingly large majority of those around you can fly or <insert insert stuff here>, and you can't, AND IT MATTERS IN PLAY TERMS, then you have a Limitation and should get a bonus to make up for the PiTA you have set yourself up for.

If everyone around you can breathe water, but you can't, it doesn't matter much in a mostly land based campaign.
But if the setting is the sunken civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria...

In a world where PCs might routinely be hit by attacks and AoE occurances that would almost always be fatal to normal humans, being a normal human is definitely a DisAd if your chosen profession has a high risk of you being in situations such things could occur.

Heros like Captain America and Batman have to approach superhero combat from a very difference POV than Superheros like Flash.

NCM means you are such a normal human. You have to worry about certain things in a way that supers, even supers with stats lower than yours, don't have to worry the same way about.

You certainly can be a normal human w/o taking the NCM DisAd. From a gameplay perspective, that means you don't want to the issues associated with being a normal in a super world to ever substantially limit you or put you at greater risk. (The difference between Batman in his titles vs Batman in the JLA. Or Cap in his titles vs Cap in the Avengers.)

[jtelson]

To some it matters a great deal.

Sorry, Why rather than How does that matter to the idea of being disadvantaged?

[ghost-angel]

Just from my personal point of view, I'd rather a Disadvantage work in play, almost exclusively. I'm not a big fan of the idea of a Disadvantage changing what your Characteristics cost.

90% of the time, once play starts, that Disadvantage won't be very Disadvantageous. The player will either have bought Characteristics as a Power, or purchased some other aspects that make them a viable and playable member of the group. Bringing some form a useful skills to the table regardless of Characteristics Cost.

I'd personally prefer that everyone in any given specific game is using the same purchasing rules.

I see, and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.

If you want to play a Normal Human in a Superheroic Campaign/World and want those consequences to come to bear, then the Player and GM need to work up what those actually are. Changing point costs seems arbitrary to me in the first place.

Doubly so once you realize that 20 is a suggested default, by the GM is well within his rights to change them (5ER p39). The GM may very well set NCM at 35, well above even what most Supers take in more than one Characteristic to begin with. Making an NCM Disadvantage even more worthless from a Mechanics Perspective.

Or the GM could set NCM to 10, which can have all kinds of dire consequences for your Character. . .

There are a number of better and different ways to handle Normal Human without using Normal Characteristic Maximum - which, FWIW, doesn't have to be attached to a "normal human" to be taken... you could very well take the Disadvantage and declare it SFX for some other reasons "Aliens from Barax can't go above the NCM...." or whatever.

If you're a Superhero, and a Superbeing, whose only ability to a series of Teleportation Powers, but it otherwise Joe Average they could take NCM. Heck, they could have all kinds of off beat superpowers and stil qualify for NCM.

Because note that Normal Charactertistic Maximum has no effect on WHAT you are, just what stuff costs. The Why of it is left to the Player. And there are no other stated consquences for taking NCM once play starts. Unlike almost all other Disadvantages in the system.

[Ki-rin]

Just from my personal point of view, I'd rather a Disadvantage work in play, almost exclusively. I'm not a big fan of the idea of a Disadvantage changing what your Characteristics cost.

90% of the time, once play starts, that Disadvantage won't be very Disadvantageous. The player will either have bought Characteristics as a Power, or purchased some other aspects that make them a viable and playable member of the group. Bringing some form a useful skills to the table regardless of Characteristics Cost.

I'd personally prefer that everyone in any given specific game is using the same purchasing rules.

I see, and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.

If you want to play a Normal Human in a Superheroic Campaign/World and want those consequences to come to bear, then the Player and GM need to work up what those actually are. Changing point costs seems arbitrary to me in the first place.

Doubly so once you realize that 20 is a suggested default, by the GM is well within his rights to change them (5ER p39). The GM may very well set NCM at 35, well above even what most Supers take in more than one Characteristic to begin with. Making an NCM Disadvantage even more worthless from a Mechanics Perspective.

Or the GM could set NCM to 10, which can have all kinds of dire consequences for your Character. . .

There are a number of better and different ways to handle Normal Human without using Normal Characteristic Maximum - which, FWIW, doesn't have to be attached to a "normal human" to be taken... you could very well take the Disadvantage and declare it SFX for some other reasons "Aliens from Barax can't go above the NCM...." or whatever.

If you're a Superhero, and a Superbeing, whose only ability to a series of Teleportation Powers, but it otherwise Joe Average they could take NCM. Heck, they could have all kinds of off beat superpowers and stil qualify for NCM.

Because note that Normal Charactertistic Maximum has no effect on WHAT you are, just what stuff costs. The Why of it is left to the Player. And there are no other stated consquences for taking NCM once play starts. Unlike almost all other Disadvantages in the system.
All of this is handled by making the consequences of the requested SFX be logically consistent during game play.

Characters that choose to be "normal" in a supers campaign are stating up front that they are more fragible in some ways compared to the average super in the campaign... ...and that they want it to matter to some degree in game play.

This is no different than buying a spell or superpower with certain SFX related Ads and Limits on it.
The game mechanic result is that you get to build certain things certain ways possibly cheaper than otherwise.
The game -play- result is that the consequences of your chosen SFX, -all- of them, are going to have an impact in game play.

A character with NCM effectively gets to buy more for their CP than one w/o.
That's the good.
The bad are the implications of the SFX chosen (you are a "normal" human of what we ITRW would recognize as ordinary flesh and blood.) on how high your stats can go and how fragible you are in some ways compared to the the average super during game play.

[Hugh Neilson]

Not a question of can you build it, it's a question of are you disadvantaged by building it that way.

So what is the disadvantage? In tangible game terms, it is the extra cost paid for the characteristics over the NCM limit. If you have none, the disadvantage should be worth nothing. If you have a 60 STR, you should get 40 points for NCM, since that's the extra points you spent. Just like the Elephant who Cannot Leap gets 9 points for that disadvantage, because 9 points was the value of his 9" of STR derived leaping.


But how often do those limitations matter in actual campaign play?
A limitation that never matters in play is de facto not limiting and therefore

"A limitation that does not actually limit the character is not worth points."

And a character who has no characteristics above the NCM maximum is not limited by the NCM disadvantage.


If everyone else in the campaign, or even an overwhelmingly large majority of those around you can fly or <insert insert stuff here>, and you can't, AND IT MATTERS IN PLAY TERMS, then you have a Limitation and should get a bonus to make up for the PiTA you have set yourself up for.

If everyone in the game has 15+ rPD, and I have none, I have set myself up for a PiTA. Should I get a disadvantage for "can't buy rPD"? That seems even more restrictive than NCM, as I don't just pay double - I can't buy it at all.

Can I have 30 or 40 points for "NCM - can't buy above max at all"? How much more if I add "Even with power modifiers"?


Heros like Captain America and Batman have to approach superhero combat from a very difference POV than Superheros like Flash.

I can easily build Flash with his DEX and SPD limited to "Drained with his other Speed Powers" - as they should be. Now those characteristics are limited, so cost isn't doubled. He can buy defenses as a force field, and most of his abilities at reduced or nil END, so he doesn't need any other stat to exceed the NCM limit. Should I now be allowed to give him 20 points for NCM and call him a "normal human"?


NCM means you are such a normal human. You have to worry about certain things in a way that supers, even supers with stats lower than yours, don't have to worry the same way about.

Really? Like what? If we have two characters with identical stat blocks, with no stat over the NCM, show me how they will play differently, by the book rules, because one takes NCM and the other does not.

[Ki-rin]

A character who has no characteristics above the NCM maximum is not limited by the NCM disadvantage.
False.


If we have two characters with identical stat blocks, with no stat over the NCM, show me how they will play differently, by the book rules, because one takes NCM and the other does not.
This debate over NCM keeps ignoring the very germane fact that you have to GM the SFX properly of any chosen effect if you are doing your job properly as a HERO GM.

That is very much the HERO RAW.

EB whose SFX are fire are GMed differently from those whose FX are water. Or ice. Or collections of rocks. Or sand. Or ...

So if your chosen effect is "I'm a being of normal flesh and blood commonly in situations where the environment is defined and dominated by the presence of supers.", then -all- the consequences of that SFX have to be properly GMed.

Twin Towers collapse on super while they are in the basement. They are very likely STUNNED, KO'd, etc.
Twin Towers collapse on Bruce or Steve while they are in the basement.
Unless Bruce or Steve gets very lucky (and the building doesn't actually collapse -on- him), he is DEAD.

Super enters burning building to save trapped civilians. Not much in the way of after effects for the super.

Steve Rogers enters burning building to save trapped civilians. The next day Steve has smoke inhalation just like the other (NYFD NPC) fire fighter at the breakfast table.
(Actual example from Capt America title just before Bernie Rosenthal figures out his Secret ID).

These issues have -nothing- to do with the characters stats, skills, or powers; and -everything- to do with the player's choice to apply the NCM SFX to their character.
They pay for the game -mechanic- bonus in game -play- by my GMing their chosen SFX properly.

[ghost-angel]

None of those actually cover what NCM does.

A building only kills non-super Character if they don't have appropriate defenses to cover it. Just like a super character only lives if they have appropriate defenses to cover it.

[ideasmith]

Sounds like a problem with your write ups to me. Just face it, such sweeping statements do not stand up to all campaigns and there are campaigns like Ki-rin's and mine where it works just fine and is a useful tool.

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.

[jtelson]

So what is the disadvantage? In tangible game terms, it is the extra cost paid for the characteristics over the NCM limit. If you have none, the disadvantage should be worth nothing. If you have a 60 STR, you should get 40 points for NCM, since that's the extra points you spent. Just like the Elephant who Cannot Leap gets 9 points for that disadvantage, because 9 points was the value of his 9" of STR derived leaping.

As I said earlier


This only holds water if points spent on characteristics provide advantage similar to points spent not on characteristics. In 5th points spent on characteristics provided advantage far superior to points spent not on characteristics so restricting the points spent on characteristics was an actual disadvantage. In 6th, characteristics are more balanced to other point spends making it less clear if there is an additional advantage to purchasing characteristics.

[jtelson]

I see, and have argued for, the merit of NCM as a Disadvantage. I just don't think it's really the best model to use and once the 6E model was presented have decided that is the prefered way of handling it.

With the characteristic cost changes in 6th, I would wholeheartedly agree that the 6th model is superior.

[Ki-rin]

None of those actually cover what NCM does.
Damn straight it covers the SFX of what NCM means compared to being a super.


A building only kills non-super Character if they don't have appropriate defenses to cover it. Just like a super character only lives if they have appropriate defenses to cover it.
A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

A being that can survive having tons of building collapse directly on his body is by definition not human unless you can show me a RW counter example of exactly that.

Normal humans can get lucky and survive because the Twin Towers collapsed -around- them rather than -on- them.
But if a skyscraper falls directly on the body of a being defined as being of normal flesh and blood, they are DEAD. Period.

[bigbywolfe]

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

A being that can survive having tons of building collapse directly on his body is by definition not human unless you can show me a RW counter
Power Armor?

I've seen people try to use NCM for PA characters.

[Ki-rin]

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.
This is easy.

Use whatever stats represent peak human genetics in your world (if they are not 20's, then you will need to redefine NCM to that maximum. I use 25 in my game worlds).

Then throw in a few Heroic Talents.

Then buy mondo amounts of Skills and MA.

Toss a few General Levels in for icing.

...and you get the Batman that even Supes does not want to F with.
(Because, as has been demo'd many times in the canonical material, Bruce -can- and -will- defeat Clark if allowed to dictate the circumstances of the ecounter and is given enough time to prepare.)

[ghost-angel]

Yep, we're done here. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm nowhere near your gaming table.

[Ki-rin]

Power Armor?

I've seen people try to use NCM for PA characters.
That's fine.

1= said character is not always in their PA.

2= even when they are in their PA, that's still a "human of ordinary flesh and blood" inside that armor. They PA may give them all sorts of abilities. It -certainly- will greatly increase their survivability under many circumstances.
But the person inside is still essentially "a soft squishy in a hard shell".

Knights got bruises and shattered joints or limbs by some blows that did not destroy their armor.

Cops may survive getting shot because they are wearing armor. But they often get -hurt- even if the armor stops the bullet.

A super using PA should not have to deal with these SFX issues because they have not chosen to get points for using this SFX.
A NCM hero using PA should.

[Peregrine]

Yep, we're done here. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm nowhere near your gaming table.

I'll see you, and raise:

I'm happy that I don't have to worry about him coming anywhere near my gaming table; he isn't suitable to GM for me.

[bigbywolfe]

That's fine.

1= said character is not always in their PA.

2= even when they are in their PA, that's still a "human of ordinary flesh and blood" inside that armor. They PA may give them all sorts of abilities. It -certainly- will greatly increase their survivability under many circumstances.
But the person inside is still essentially "a soft squishy in a hard shell".

Knights got bruises and shattered joints or limbs by some blows that did not destroy their armor.

Cops may survive getting shot because they are wearing armor. But they often get -hurt- even if the armor stops the bullet.

A super using PA should not have to deal with these SFX issues because they have not chosen to get points for using this SFX.
A NCM hero using PA should.
In game terms, if the Armor (Power Armor, or Knight Armor, it doesn't matter) stops all the damage, then the person doesn't take damage, period. If you allow a character to take NCM on their power armor character, then drop a building on them, and declare that, despite their massive defenses (bought through the PA) the recieve broken bones and are half dead anyway, because they have NCM, your not going to have a happy player.

[Ki-rin]

Yep, we're done here. I can't tell you how happy I am that I'm nowhere near your gaming table.
*shrug* you can't please all the people all the time.

I suspect from your posts that you would have far more fun than you presently think :)

The only folks who need to avoid my games like the plague are the Rules Rapists and extreme Power Gamers.
I would make their lives miserable, and they'd have no fun.

[bigbywolfe]

*shrug* you can't please all the people all the time.

I suspect from your posts that you would have far more fun than you presently think :)

The only folks who need to avoid my games like the plague are the Rules Rapists and extreme Power Gamers.
I would make their lives miserable, and they'd have no fun.
I am neither of those things, but I couldn't play in your game. Ruling things willie-nillie based on SFX at the cost of ignoring the mechanics? I couldn't handle that.

[ghost-angel]

Damn straight it covers the SFX of what NCM means compared to being a super.


A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.


*shrug* you can't please all the people all the time.

I suspect from your posts that you would have far more fun than you presently think :)

The only folks who need to avoid my games like the plague are the Rules Rapists and extreme Power Gamers.
I would make their lives miserable, and they'd have no fun.

See the first quoted statement?

that is by far the single worst thing I have ever seen anyone say ever.
And it's a flat out False Statement. I could come up with a dozen "Not A Super powered being" SFX to counter it.

And the only way I can see you making "power gamers" or "rules rapists" or even a "mild rules lawyer" life miserable is your blatant disregard for the rules.

[Ki-rin]

In game terms, if the Armor (Power Armor, or Knight Armor, it doesn't matter) stops all the damage, then the person doesn't take damage, period. If you allow a character to take NCM on their power armor character, then drop a building on them, and declare that, despite their massive defenses (bought through the PA) the recieve broken bones and are half dead anyway, because they have NCM, your not going to have a happy player.
Absolutely. But then the player has paid CP, and used the appropriate SFX, to properly deal with the situation.

A guy in PA, even a "normal" guy, is not standing around in nothing but tights (or even chail mail in the case of Capt America) when the building falls on him.

Iron Man most definitely has been undamaged by having buildings fall him. Or having thrown tanks pile driver him into the earth dozens of feet. Or being hit point blank with tank rounds.

Does anyone really want to claim Tony Stark would survive any of these sort of events without his armor on?

[Ki-rin]

I am neither of those things, but I couldn't play in your game. Ruling things willie-nillie based on SFX at the cost of ignoring the mechanics? I couldn't handle that.
Nothing willie-nillie about it.

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

That's been HERO canon since the days of MacDonald & Peterson.
(I am in fact presently holding a June 1988 printing of _Champions_ and a copy of _Fantasy Hero_ that old because of this discussion.)

[bigbywolfe]

Nothing willie-nillie about it.

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

That's been HERO canon since the days of MacDonald & Peterson.
(I am in fact presently holding a June 1988 printing of _Champions_ and a copy of _Fantasy Hero_ that old because of this discussion.)
On the other thread you said you would allow an NND attack without the Does Body Advantage to do Body if enough damage was done (which makes no sense, it doesn't do body, except when it does) based soley on SFX. I think SFX are important, and will make rulings based on SFX, but at the cost of completely ignoring Mechanics and giving one player an advantage of the others because of the SFX he chose? No, no way, nadda.

[bigbywolfe]

Nothing willie-nillie about it.

If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.
This is just wrong. You should build the SFX you want with the mechanics available not randomly reward some SFX and gimp others.

[Greywind]

(or even chail mail in the case of Capt America)Scale mail


This is just wrong. You should build the SFX you want with the mechanics available not randomly reward some SFX and gimp others.Actually, you build the power you want to fit the concept of the character and then slap the SFX on it after...

[bigbywolfe]

Actually, you build the power you want to fit the concept of the character and then slap the SFX on it after...
Whatever, you get my point, even if my wording was poor. SFX are important, but do not trump Mechanics, at least not to the point of altering them, for good or ill, for free.

[Hugh Neilson]

This debate over NCM keeps ignoring the very germane fact that you have to GM the SFX properly of any chosen effect if you are doing your job properly as a HERO GM.

That is very much the HERO RAW.

As is Reason from Effect. If the SFX you have selected should have certain benefits and drawbacks, you need to purchase the mechanical abilities, advantages and limitations which represent these. You don't get to buy a 12d6 EB - Fire, and get a firebolt that, on hitting its target, keeps burning for added damage until someone puts it out. If you want that, you buy advantages to create a fire that continues to cause damage.


So if your chosen effect is "I'm a being of normal flesh and blood commonly in situations where the environment is defined and dominated by the presence of supers.", then -all- the consequences of that SFX have to be properly GMed.

Twin Towers collapse on super while they are in the basement. They are very likely STUNNED, KO'd, etc.

Twin Towers collapse on Bruce or Steve while they are in the basement.
Unless Bruce or Steve gets very lucky (and the building doesn't actually collapse -on- him), he is DEAD.

This depends on their physical stats. The character can, within NCM, have an armored carapace, regeneration with resurrection, an impenetrable force barrier, or even enough raw PD to survive (he has to pay double for it if it has no limitations - nothing prevents him HAVING it).

Meanwhile, Genius Guy (75 INT, 75 EGO and an array of mental powers) is dead, because he does not have sufficient defenses to withstand being crushed, despite being a Superhuman.


Super enters burning building to save trapped civilians. Not much in the way of after effects for the super.

Steve Rogers enters burning building to save trapped civilians. The next day Steve has smoke inhalation just like the other (NYFD NPC) fire fighter at the breakfast table.
(Actual example from Capt America title just before Bernie Rosenthal figures out his Secret ID).

I've read an awful lot of Cap, Daredevil, Batman, Green Arrow, etc. where the characters enter similar situations and suffer from no aftereffects. In my games, your background does not determine whether you suffer the ill effects of smoke inhalation - your need to breathe does. NCM does not restrict a character from taking Life Support - need not breathe. It does not even increase the cost.


These issues have -nothing- to do with the characters stats, skills, or powers; and -everything- to do with the player's choice to apply the NCM SFX to their character.
They pay for the game -mechanic- bonus in game -play- by my GMing their chosen SFX properly.

These issues have nothing to do with being a "normal human" and everything to do with how the character, normal human or superhuman, spent his points.


None of those actually cover what NCM does.

A building only kills non-super Character if they don't have appropriate defenses to cover it. Just like a super character only lives if they have appropriate defenses to cover it.

Much more concise than my discussion above, but the same premise.


Damn straight it covers the SFX of what NCM means compared to being a super.

A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

Sure he can. He can have technology. He can have magic. He can have an armored carapace, an impenetrable force wall, desolidification, damage reduction, damage negation, armor, etc. etc. etc. He can even have 100 PD - he just pays more for it.

Actually, the real issue is that we are not speaking the same language. I agree that a non-super character lacks the defenses to withstand a skyscraper falling on him. But Normal Characteristic Maximum does not make a character "non-super", nor does lacking the disadvantage make him Super. He is, or is not, "Super" due to the manner in which he spent his points.


Absolutely. But then the player has paid CP, and used the appropriate SFX, to properly deal with the situation.

A guy in PA, even a "normal" guy, is not standing around in nothing but tights (or even chail mail in the case of Capt America) when the building falls on him.

Genius Guy is, and he's Super. And dead after the building falls on him.


Does anyone really want to claim Tony Stark would survive any of these sort of events without his armor on?

Nope. Neither will Genius Guy. Or the Flash, unless he vibrates free. Or Aquaman. Characters with sufficient defenses will. Characters with insufficient defenses won't. Their survival has nothing to do with whether they took NCM for 20 points. NOTHING.


If it isn't logically consistent for a given SFX to result in a given outcome, things are made to fit the SFX.

That's been HERO canon since the days of MacDonald & Peterson.
(I am in fact presently holding a June 1988 printing of _Champions_ and a copy of _Fantasy Hero_ that old because of this discussion.)

My enhanced strength results from the SFX of being a peak human in all respects. Does that mean I also have enhanced DEX for free, or does the fact I am a peak human in all respects mean I should buy enhanced DEX? If you check those books, I expect you will find (because I did when I read them back when they came out) that SFX provide minor advantages and limitations, not entirely new mechanics that were not paid for.

[steamteck]

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.


I don't have a Batman but I have other characters that do just fine.. I don't see why you need to see a write up to know you can make these characters without going going over the NCM and "losing points" If fact as long as you don't go over the amount gained by the disadvantage I don't see how you're losing points. skill levels etc can handle just about you need for performance. note I feel champions universe does suffer from characteristic inflation so that may be your disconnect.

I have never understood this complaint. If you take NCM and stay within NCM or under the amount you gain from it you don't lose points. if your game is such that normal humans need to go higher then don't use it.

I really don't understand this losing points unless (a) you abandon internal logic and normal humans can go crazty with above 20 stats or (b) the character is about as normal a human as Captain America and shpulddn't take it.

I would the arguement would be its free points and cheating people out of points.

Remember whatt assupttions do. I 'm really ttired of everyone assuming something can't work. I feel no need to go through the trouble to copy one of my NCM characters from his little index card to the computor to prove something that should be obvious with a little ,mental flexibilty. I never said it would work in your campaign but it does in mine.

I'm sorry this is just too annoying I'm going to bow out of this thread before I say something I really regret.

[Greywind]

Whatever, you get my point, even if my wording was poor. SFX are important, but do not trump Mechanics, at least not to the point of altering them, for good or ill, for free.Actually, I might find reason to disagree with this, as there have been references printed explaining how different SFX interact with one-another.

[ideasmith]

This is easy.

Use whatever stats represent peak human genetics in your world (if they are not 20's, then you will need to redefine NCM to that maximum. I use 25 in my game worlds).

Then throw in a few Heroic Talents.

Then buy mondo amounts of Skills and MA.

Toss a few General Levels in for icing.

...and you get the Batman that even Supes does not want to F with.
(Because, as has been demo'd many times in the canonical material, Bruce -can- and -will- defeat Clark if allowed to dictate the circumstances of the ecounter and is given enough time to prepare.)

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character, one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).

[Greywind]

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character, one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).
Only if he were still on Krypton...

[Hyper-Man]

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character, one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).

Heck, a house rule is not even required. Just buy his STR and other Kryptonian based characteristics as Powers.

[ideasmith]

I don't have a Batman but I have other characters that do just fine.. I don't see why you need to see a write up to know you can make these characters without going going over the NCM and "losing points" If fact as long as you don't go over the amount gained by the disadvantage I don't see how you're losing points. skill levels etc can handle just about you need for performance. note I feel champions universe does suffer from characteristic inflation so that may be your disconnect.


Every write-up of Batman I have seen – and I've seen a number of them while websurfing, so this is not specific to my gaming group – would have lost points from NCM.


I have never understood this complaint. If you take NCM and stay within NCM or under the amount you gain from it you don't lose points. if your game is such that normal humans need to go higher then don't use it.

I really don't understand this losing points unless (a) you abandon internal logic and normal humans can go crazty with above 20 stats or (b) the character is about as normal a human as Captain America and shpulddn't take it.

According to the rulebook (5ER page 40-41), characteristics don't count as superheroic until 31+ for physical characteristics or 51+ for mental characteristics. Your 'internal logic' contradicts the rulebook. Yes, characteristics above 20 are for exceptional normal humans. Any normal human superhero is, almost by definition, exceptional.

[Ki-rin]

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character, one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).
We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats.

Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd.

Bats and Cap get NCM because they are ordinary flash and bone who regularly face opponents with stats and physical characteristics impossible for the human body as we know it IRL to encompass.

I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.

In a world where agents can and do sometimes have primary stats as high as 25 w/o being supers, NCM being based on a primary stat limit of 25 makes sense. (...and having NCM fit the game world has been canon since at least 4ed.)

Making NCM 1.25x higher allowed me to have more variability in what "normals", including agents, can do. That made it easier for me to keep agents at ~ -3 To Hit supers for game balance purposes.

[ideasmith]

Only if he were still on Krypton...

If the GM is willing to house-rule the Maxima up to Superman's level, it doesn't matter whether Superman is on Krypton. (More GM's would adjust the Maxima that high if the campaign were set on Krypton, but that's beside the point.)

[Ki-rin]

Every write-up of Batman I have seen – and I've seen a number of them while websurfing, so this is not specific to my gaming group – would have lost points from NCM.
Pointers please.

I've got 2 standard homage builds for Bruce Wayne that follow published canon as closely as I could.
One for NCM of 20 worlds and one for NCM of 25 worlds.

In either he is expensive (500+ character points). In either, he is down right scary if played right.

[Greywind]

If the GM is willing to house-rule the Maxima up to Superman's level, it doesn't matter whether Superman is on Krypton. (More GM's would adjust the Maxima that high if the campaign were set on Krypton, but that's beside the point.)That GM would be a moron.

[ideasmith]

We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats.

Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd.

Bats and Cap get NCM because they are ordinary flash and bone who regularly face opponents with stats and physical characteristics impossible for the human body as we know it IRL to encompass.

I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.

In a world where agents can and do sometimes have primary stats as high as 25 w/o being supers, NCM being based on a primary stat limit of 25 makes sense. (...and having NCM fit the game world has been canon since at least 4ed.)

Making NCM 1.25x higher allowed me to have more variability in what "normals", including agents, can do. That made it easier for me to keep agents at ~ -3 to hit supers for game balance purposes.

Sound like you have also moved the top of the 'competent' category 1.25x higher. However, setting the Maxima at the top of the 'competent' category will penalize characters such as Batman, who is as agile as an Elite Martial Artist, about as tough as Rasputin, and about as smart as Sherlock Holmes, to use Benchmarks from page 41 of 5ER.

Having NCM fit the game world may have been canon in 4E, but I see no such rule in 5ER. Do you have a page reference?

[ideasmith]

That GM would be a moron.

Probably true, but also beside the point.

[steamteck]

According to the rulebook (5ER page 40-41), characteristics don't count as superheroic until 31+ for physical characteristics or 51+ for mental characteristics. Your 'internal logic' contradicts the rulebook. Yes, characteristics above 20 are for exceptional normal humans. Any normal human superhero is, almost by definition, exceptional.

I really really want to just bow out BUT just look at NCM double cost for anything over 20. You know maybe its for the best those crazy inflated stats need to be contradicted. You did bother to notice anything over 25 is legendary even then. Look at the frickin' STR chart and seriously tell me they need stats in that range. I can't beleive youcan't see any way but your own


Here's a decent NCM Batman in this thread

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67230

Now I'm done Ideasmith you're now on ignore so I won't reply back.

[Ki-rin]

Sound like you have also moved the top of the 'competent' category 1.25x higher. However, setting the Maxima at the top of the 'competent' category will penalize characters such as Batman, who is as agile as an Elite Martial Artist, about as tough as Rasputin, and about as smart as Sherlock Holmes, to use Benchmarks from page 41 of 5ER.
Elite MA => DEX at NCM
Tough as Rasputin => CON and BODY at NCM
smart as Sherlock Holmes => real close to the NCM cap but not at it. Say 18 in a 20 NCM world and 23 in a 25 NCM world.
(Remember even Sherlock said that both his brother Mycroft and his arch-enemy Moriarty were smarter than he was.)
Also need very high Intuition and Deduction skills to simulate Bats mental talents.

Don't see how any of this penalizes Batman.


Having NCM fit the game world may have been canon in 4E, but I see no such rule in 5ER. Do you have a page reference?
Nope. I do not have 5ER.

[Lucius]

Nope. I do not have 5ER.

Which may mean we're just talking past each other. I'm going by 5th or even 6th edition, and you're apparently still using 4th. I have recently learned that I actually don't remember 4th as well as I think I do.



I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.


Which is fine, and of course it was already obvious that you were very heavily house ruling NCM.

The disconnect comes in when you treat your house rules as if they were THE rules.
As I have already pointed out, most people here have not played in your games and are not likely to.


This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.
This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.

This wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten or overlooked something from that edition.

I don't suppose you can quote me the relevant passage? I think I still have that edition somewhere but I know if I go looking it would take me days to find it....


Lucius,

NCM was the standard RAW way to differentiate heroic characters from super heroic ones.

Changing the name of the DisAd to "merely Human" is "merely symantics".

I'm not talking about changing the name of a Disad. I'm talking about getting rid of a Disad that should not have existed – Normal Characteristic Maxima – and creating a Disad that should exist and doesn't (at least not in 5th and 6th editions) possibly to be called “Merely Human.”



If a player chooses to play a hero in a superhero campaign, they have chosen to put themselves at greater hazard in an already dangerous profession. That's a DisAd. NCM is merely the game mechanic we use to quantify that DisAd.

Yep, that would be a Disad. However, NCM is not “the game mechanic we use to quantify that Disad.” All NCM quantifies is a higher cost to certain Characteristics and Movement Powers.

Unless I am truly severely misremembering 4th edition, and in any case my statement holds true for 5th.



In this case, the effect that needs to be simulated is the DisAd that "normal" humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns.
They also have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't.
NCM is intended to model that.

If that was the intent, then it models it very, very, very poorly.

If the effect that needs to be simulated is the Disad that “normal” humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns, and have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't, wouldn't it make more sense to have a Disad that actually DOES model those things (for example, a Disad requiring a character to use Hit Location, Impairing, Disabling, and Bleeding rules, in a campaign where most player characters don't have to) than a Disad that changes the costs of Characteristics and certain Movement Powers above a certain point (and then only if said Characteristics and Powers aren't “bought as powers”) ??




A non super character =CAN NOT= have the appropriate defenses to withstand a direct-to-the-body hit of a skyscraper falling on them. EVER.

A being that can survive having tons of building collapse directly on his body is by definition not human unless you can show me a RW counter example of exactly that.

Normal humans can get lucky and survive because the Twin Towers collapsed -around- them rather than -on- them.
But if a skyscraper falls directly on the body of a being defined as being of normal flesh and blood, they are DEAD. Period.

I can actually go along with this, I think. Certainly for the sake of the argument. I won't say that a “non super character” can survive a skyscraper falling on them.

If you want to talk about what real people, or normal people, however we define those terms, can and can't do or endure, that might be an interesting conversation. It will, however, be a conversation that has nothing whatsoever to do with Normal Characteristic Maxima as either a default rule or a Disadvantage. A character with Normal Characteristic Maxima can certainly survive the fall of a skyscraper if built to do so, and a character without Normal Characteristic Maxima can certainly die.



As to your challenge. Pick any situation


I asked you to pick one. I notice you can't seem to think of any. But okay, I'll play along.


where you need a primary stat of 40 or a figured stat based on primary stat that high, and you have a situation where a NCM human basically can't succeed (or in some cases, survive) unless they are extraordinarily lucky.


I didn't have to look very far at all. Are you sure you're not actually just trying to make this easy for me? These guys are already in this thread, page 3.

Note Brother Orchid especially, who can afford a STR of 40 with NCM despite being built on 50 pts plus 50 Disads. And here I thought you'd present me a situation only a superhero could handle....

The Florist Friars

Brother Rose Aka ”the Flying Monk”
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]
20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 7
13 CON 6 12-
9 BODY -2 11-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
8 COM -1 11-

3/5 PD 0 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)
3/4 ED 0 Total: 3/4 ED (0/1 rED)
6 SPD 50 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
6 REC 0
26 END 0
24 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 88

Movement:
Running: 3"/6"
Flight: 3"/12"
Leaping: 2"/4"
Swimming:1"/2"

Cost Powers END
9 The Flying Monk: Flight 3", x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (22 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Conditional Power Only if already ran 3" that phase; Can only go noncombat if ran noncombat that phase (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel (Secret herbal potion) Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]
1 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow...: Armor (2 PD/1 ED) (5 Active Points); Limited Power Does not stop first pt of BOD of a Killing Attack (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Linked (The Flying Monk; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]
2 Healing Potion: Rapid Healing (5 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2)
Notes: For some reason, Brother Rose's herbal potions seem to only be able to heal himself. Unfortunately, not everyone believes that....
He's Fast!
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All, Abort; FMove
3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/5, Target Falls
3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab 2 Limbs, 25 STR holding

Skills
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Bureaucratics 12-
3 Paramedics 12-
3 Trading 12-
0 Language: English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)
3 Jack of All Trades
2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 12-
2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 12-
2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 12-
2 4) PS: Herbalist (3 Active Points) 12-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Canon Law (3 Active Points) 12-
2 2) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 12-
2 3) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 12-
2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes through the City (3 Active Points) 12-

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 62
Total Cost: 150

75+ Disadvantages
0 Normal Characteristic Maxima
5 Age: 40+
15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid 14- (Slightly Less Powerful)
15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)
5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor
5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)
5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preperations 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish)
15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

Total Disadvantage Points: 150

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.

Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.




Brother Orchid aka “Brother Ox”
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
40 STR 50 17- Lift 6400.0kg; 8d6 [8]
11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4/DCV: 4
13 CON 6 12-
10 BODY 0 11-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
8 COM -1 11-

6 PD -2 Total: 6 PD (0 rPD)
4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED (0 rED)
3 SPD 9 Phases: 4, 8, 12
11 REC 0
26 END 0
37 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 67

Movement:
Running: 5"/10"
Leaping: 4"/8"
Swimming:2"/4"

Talents
6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

Skills
3 Hoist 11-
3 Jack of All Trades
2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 11-
2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 11-
2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 11-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 11-
2 2) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 11-
2 3) KS: Monastic Traditions (worldwide) (3 Active Points) 11-
2 +1 With Grab

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 29
Total Cost: 96

50+ Disadvantages
0 Normal Characteristic Maxima
15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)
5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor
5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)
10 Psychological Limitation: Looks up to Brother Rose (Common, Moderate)

Total Disadvantage Points: 50

Background/History: Brother Orchid is actually Brother Rose's nephew, and he looks up to his uncle as a wiser and more experienced monk. But he's also read about the monastic and ascetic traditions of other cultures, and is not above sometimes mischeivously annoying his uncle by comparing their own rules and rituals to those of Buddhists or Taoists.

Personality/Motivation: Curiosity about Eastern traditions aside, Brother Orchid takes his vow of Obedience very seriously. Whatever he's doing at any given moment, it's probably what someone told him to do.

Quote: No thank you brother, I can handle it. They can't weigh more than a couple hundred kilos.

Powers/Tactics: Brother Orchid is gentle by nature and if he must fight will usually try to grab and immobilize his opponent. He knows he is unusually strong and is unlikely to strike anyone with his full Strength unless frightened or severely provoked.

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

Appearance: Brother Orchid is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.



Lucius Alexander

Florist Friars copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Hyper-Man]

...


Nope. I do not have 5ER.

Is that true for 5E as well?

If so, you should be aware that the current board has been essentially funded by sales of 5th edition products (soon to be 6th going forward).

It has also been generally assumed (until the recent release of 6e) that any rules discussions are about 5th edition rules (5e or 5er) unless clearly stated by the poster.

Steve Long (part of the current ownership) wrote 5e and 6e. He did not write the BBB/4e rules.

[Peregrine]

This was true in =4e=. See HSR p. 122.
This =was not= true in 5e. See HS5eR p. 32 and 329, neither of which mentions NCM as in any way indicating a non-super in a Superheroic setting.

If you are playing 4e, it is RAW. If you are playing 5e, it is not, but has been grandfathered or houseruled in.


This wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten or overlooked something from that edition.

I don't suppose you can quote me the relevant passage? I think I still have that edition somewhere but I know if I go looking it would take me days to find it....


Incoming....


NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC MAXIMA
This represents a character who is a “normal” in a world of superheroes or other super-powerful beings. This Disadvantage can only be purchased by characters in a campaign where there are normally no restriction on Characteristics (a superheroic campaign).




NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC MAXIMA
The two Characteristics Tables list “Maximum Values” for each characteristic. This restriction, known as Normal Characteristic Maxima, applies only to Heroic campaigns; usually it acts as a “default” for the campaign and does not count as a Disadvantage. Superheroic campaigns have no such limits (unless the GM imposes them, or they voluntarily choose them as a Disadvantage [see page 329]).




Normal Characteristic Maxima
Characters in campaigns that do not impose Normal Characteristic Maxima as a default can take Normal Characteristic Maxima as a Disadvantage for 20 Character Points. (The character can also take Age as a Disadvantage and get full points for it.) This requires them to abide by the restrictions of Normal Characteristic Maximum, including paying double for characteristics above the Maximum Value.

[Ki-rin]

Thanks Peregrine. Nice overlook of the historical trend.

I had 5ER. Then there was a fire...

I'll be buying 6E as soon as I can.

[Lucius]

Incoming....

Hm...so it contains the statement


This represents a character who is a “normal” in a world of superheroes or other super-powerful beings.

without defining what "normal" means? And the actual mechanic is the same as in 5th edition?

Lucius Alexander

With a supernormal palindromedary and a normal super palindromedary

[Lucius]

Actually, Ki-rin, I'll do you a favor.

I can think of one, and only one, situation that could not be survived by a character with Normal Characteristic Maxima, solely because they have Normal Characteristic Maxima. But it's very contrived.


Doctor Abnormal's Fiendish Deathtrap!: (Total: 370 Active Cost, 140 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; See Linked Detect; +1/4), No Normal Defense ([Defense is not having Normal Characteristic Maxima]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (25" Radius; +1), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; Insidious; +1), +5 Increased STUN Multiplier (First it knocks you out, then it quickly kills you; +1 1/4) (292 Active Points); IIF Immobile (The death dealing Abnormal Radiation Generator must be built in place and cannot be moved; -1 1/4), No Range (-1/2) (Real Cost: 106) <b>plus</b> Detect A Character with Normal Characteristic Maxima 14- (Radio Group) (6 Active Points); IIF Immobile (-1 1/4), Limited Power Sense used only as Trigger for Triggered Power (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> Endurance Reserve (120 END, 60 REC) (72 Active Points); IIF Immobile (-1 1/4) (Real Cost: 32)


Of course, I could just as easily design a deathtrap to which the defense is HAVING Normal Characteristic Maxima.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary ponders the odd fact that the above deathtrap would actually catch the Bayangi Normal Human robot.

[Ki-rin]

YES!!!

I just found out that I did NOT lose my entire collection of the more recent HERO stuff.

To give you an idea of the magnitude of the disaster that just reversed itself, I just recovered

HERO 5ER rule book
Most of the Ultimate series
DEMON servants of darkness
VIPER coil of the serpent
5ed DC
5ed Champions
5ed Ninja Hero
Conquers, Killers, and Crooks.
The Mystic World
5ed FH grimore
The Turakian Age
Arcane Adversaries
Galactic Champions
Vibora Bay
Hudson City the urban abyss
Millenium City
Gadgets and Gear

Something like a $grand worth of books.

I am PSYCHED!

[Ki-rin]

Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes.

Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_

I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for!
*bounce a bounce a bounce*

[Ki-rin]

NCM is a Physical Limitation.

From p157 Champions 5E
"The chief virtue of Physical Limitations in a _Champions_ campaign is that you can place a character with this Disadvantage in situations where he has to cope with his disability- possibly for an increase in the drama of episode, possibly to the detriment of his self-image. With the right player, it can make some fascinating roleplaying and great stories."

That's how I GM NCM.

When Batman is dealing with a super powered adversary, he has to approach the problem in a different way than his fellow non NCM superheros do.

Ditto rescuing folks from disasters, dealing with collapsing buildings and avalanches, etc etc.
Bats and Cap are -human-.
Superbly trained, very tough, and utterly fearless humans, but still normal flesh and blood.

Jean Gray isn't (even w/o The Phoenix complications). The Flash isn't. Demi-gods like Supes and WW certainly are not.

...and if you don't want the fact that your character is human to affect game play, you don't have to take the physical disad.
(allowing for JLA Batman and Avengers Captain America).

[ghost-angel]

Are you absolutely sure NCM is a Physical Limitation?

Because it's not.

It's listed under the Age Limitation. Which how everyone else is looking at it. It may be "physical" but it is not a Physical Limitation Mechanically. It doesn't behave like Physical Limitation does; it does not use Frequency/Severity. Therefore not making it that Mechanic.

[Duke Bushido]

I haven't got a dog in this fight (no 6e, and our group is using older stuff anyway), but I can't rep the palindromedary again for a while.....

I just wanted to say that this:




If the effect that needs to be simulated is the Disad that “normal” humans get seriously injured or die far more easily IRL than supers do in HERO supers campaigns, and have other physical and mental limitations that supers don't, wouldn't it make more sense to have a Disad that actually DOES model those things (for example, a Disad requiring a character to use Hit Location, Impairing, Disabling, and Bleeding rules, in a campaign where most player characters don't have to) than a Disad that changes the costs of Characteristics and certain Movement Powers above a certain point (and then only if said Characteristics and Powers aren't “bought as powers”) ??



Was extremely well-said.

I'll rep it as soon as I can. :)

[Greywind]

NCM is a Physical Limitation.

From p157 Champions 5E
"The chief virtue of Physical Limitations in a _Champions_ campaign is that you can place a character with this Disadvantage in situations where he has to cope with his disability- possibly for an increase in the drama of episode, possibly to the detriment of his self-image. With the right player, it can make some fascinating roleplaying and great stories."

That's how I GM NCM.

When Batman is dealing with a super powered adversary, he has to approach the problem in a different way than his fellow non NCM superheros do.

Ditto rescuing folks from disasters, dealing with collapsing buildings and avalanches, etc etc.
Bats and Cap are -human-.
Superbly trained, very tough, and utterly fearless humans, but still normal flesh and blood.

Jean Gray isn't (even w/o The Phoenix complications). The Flash isn't. Demi-gods like Supes and WW certainly are not.

...and if you don't want the fact that your character is human to affect game play, you don't have to take the physical disad.
(allowing for JLA Batman and Avengers Captain America).
I find it interesting that you keep tossing Cap into this. Cap isn't a mainline human. He was altered by the Super Soldier serum. This indirectly makes him a "mutate." His strength, regardless of all the builds that put him at 20, was above a 25. His Dex would/should be pushing 30. I honestly would not ever consider Cap a possibility for NCM.

[ideasmith]

I really really want to just bow out BUT just look at NCM double cost for anything over 20. You know maybe its for the best those crazy inflated stats need to be contradicted. You did bother to notice anything over 25 is legendary even then. Look at the frickin' STR chart and seriously tell me they need stats in that range. I can't beleive youcan't see any way but your own


Here's a decent NCM Batman in this thread

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67230

Now I'm done Ideasmith you're now on ignore so I won't reply back.

The link is to a 250 point "write-up" of one of the most experienced characters in the genre. I can take it for granted that Batman has a lot more than 250 points. This 'Batman' has neither a Batmobile nor a Batcave.

[ideasmith]

Elite MA => DEX at NCM
Tough as Rasputin => CON and BODY at NCM
smart as Sherlock Holmes => real close to the NCM cap but not at it. Say 18 in a 20 NCM world and 23 in a 25 NCM world.
(Remember even Sherlock said that both his brother Mycroft and his arch-enemy Moriarty were smarter than he was.)
Also need very high Intuition and Deduction skills to simulate Bats mental talents.

Don't see how any of this penalizes Batman.


Nope. I do not have 5ER.

5ER page 41 gives "Elite martial artist" as the Benchmark for Legendary Dexterity.
5ER page 40 defines Legendary Dexterity as "21-30".

5ER page 41 gives "Rasputin" as a Benchmark for Legendary Constitution.
5ER page 40 defines Legendary Constitution as "21-30".

5ER page 41 gives "Sherlock Holmes" as the Benchmark for Legendary Intelligence.
5ER page 40 defines Legendary Intelligence as "21-50".

The description of "Legendary" (5ER page 41) includes the sentence "The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of human attainment."

[ideasmith]

Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes.

Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_

I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for!
*bounce a bounce a bounce*

Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions, Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima.

[Ki-rin]

Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions, Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima.
And I quote my previous post...


Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_
Champions 5E. Not HERO 5ER.

Upper LHS of page. Column on edge rather than in main body text. Page number is even in the alphabetical index at the end of the Champions 5E sourcebook.

The only reference to NCM in 5ER is on p19-20 tacked inappropriately under Age.
(Inappropriate because actually -reading- the section makes it clear that Age and NCM are independent DisAds. One can take both Age and NCM simultaneously. NCM is not a sub-catagory of Age RAW although NCM limits can be modified by Age.)

EDIT: Ghost_Angel quoted below

NCM is addressed in 5ER on p39 & p329-330.

[Peregrine]

Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions, Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima.

It appears that he has the original HS5, not HS5R; the latter is longer and many of the page references have changed.

[Ki-rin]

I have _HERO System fifth edition revised_ ISBN 1-58366-043-7
(You know the big black hard bound with green, gray, and white lettering; a copy of which was shot with a high velocity rifle by someone around here as part of "play testing"?)


You folks are going to kick yourselves when the "D'oh!" moment hits...


*listening to elevator music in the thread while I wait...*

[Ki-rin]

The link is to a 250 point "write-up" of one of the most experienced characters in the genre. I can take it for granted that Batman has a lot more than 250 points. This 'Batman' has neither a Batmobile nor a Batcave.
As I posted earlier, both of my homage builds for Batman stay as close as possible to the canon source material.

And either of them costs 500+ points (600+ for the one intended for a 25 NCM world.)

[Peregrine]

I have _HERO System fifth edition revised_ ISBN 1-58366-043-7
(You know the big black hard bound with green, gray, and white lettering; a copy of which was shot with a high velocity rifle by someone around here as part of "play testing"?)


You folks are going to kick yourselves when the "D'oh!" moment hits...


*listening to elevator music in the thread while I wait...*

Bad guess on my part, then.

[ghost-angel]

Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes.

Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_

I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for!
*bounce a bounce a bounce*

For reference - this is Champions p58; not the Main Rules.

NCM is addressed in 5ER on p39 & p329-330.

[Hugh Neilson]

Heck, a house rule is not even required. Just buy his STR and other Kryptonian based characteristics as Powers.

You'd have to in 6e - they all have Unified Power. In 5e, they should have "drain one, drain all", as Supes' Kryptonian abilities all seem to get drained in lockstep if they get drained at all.


We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats.

Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd.

Sure he does. Characteristics purchased as powers are powers, and exempt from NCM, just like Defender's Power Armor stats. Superman's high characteristics do not function under a red sun, so they have a limitation. All characteristics with a limitation are powers, not characteristics, and are not subject to NCM. His characteristics under a red sun are within NCM, so he should get 20 free points for following the rules of NCM.

[Ki-rin]

Characteristics purchased as powers are powers, and exempt from NCM, just like Defender's Power Armor stats. Superman's high characteristics do not function under a red sun, so they have a limitation. All characteristics with a limitation are powers, not characteristics, and are not subject to NCM. His characteristics under a red sun are within NCM, so he should get 20 free points for following the rules of NCM.
*Bzz't!*

A Limitation that does not Limit the character during actual game play is not worth points.

As long as Supes spends the vast majority of his time -not- under a red sun, he is not in a campaign where the effects of a red sun matter.

A novice attempting to get this Limitation is showing that they do not understand HERO.
An experienced HERO user attempting to get this Limitation is Trying To Pull A Fast One. (AKA "munchkin" behavior.)

On the the vast majority of game worlds, Supes stats are not powers unless you can come up with some other rationale that will hold up to the RAW.
(if your campaign -is- going to spend a very large percentage of its time under a red sun, that clearly changes things.)

[ghost-angel]

Hugh's rational does hold up to RAW.

And please stop using Limitation and Disadvantage like they are interchangable terms - they are two separate Mechanics.

[Ki-rin]

Hugh's rational does hold up to RAW.
No it does not and it never has.

You don't get points for DisAds or Limitations that do not affect game play.
If I as a GM can't take advantage of it significantly enough for it to matter to the campaign, then for all intents and purposes it does not exist.

This has been the bedrock principle for DisAds and Limitations for as long as they have existed.

If Supes red sun vulnerability is to be worth any points at all, it has to come up often enough in game play for it to be something that must be taken into account as a possibility.
If it can be ignored for all intents and puposes because we are playing under a non-red sun the vast majority of the time, then it does not matter enough to game play to be a DisAd or Limitation.

[ghost-angel]

You didn't ask how often a Red Sun would come up in Hugh's campaign.

It's RAW.

;)

[Peregrine]

You don't get points for DisAds or Limitations that do not affect game play.
If I as a GM can't take advantage of it significantly enough for it to matter to the campaign, then for all intents and purposes it does not exist.



So how does NCM, as per 5eR RAW and separate from your house rules, affect game play in a superheroic setting?

[Ki-rin]

You didn't ask how often a Red Sun would come up in Hugh's campaign.

It's RAW.

;)
Then that game world is uncommon compared to Supes canon.

The GM and the player will need to agree on what significant percentage of the time Supes will be in danger of being under a red sun in order to fairly price the DisAd or Limitation.

"Infrequently" is going to mean ~3/8 of the time (8- on 3d6).
That's going to result in a (-1/4) Limitation if all being under a red sun does is make Supes "normal human".

...and ~ 3/8 of the time he -will- be in circumstances where he is a "normal human" despite his desire to have Kryptonian superpowers at that moment.

If he wants more points or a bigger bonus for the DisAd or Limitation, the player is going to have to increase the frequency of the problem (11- or the equivalent is -1/2, 14- or the equivalent is -3/4 or -1) or the severity of the consequences (since this is very much -not- canon, I'm not going to worry about it ATM).

THAT is RAW.

Not him getting points for something that almost never happens in game play even in his canonical campaigns.

[ghost-angel]

You didn't address him taking NCM I notice.

In fact, your entire argument of NCM comes from a non-RAW point of view so you don't get to shove RAW at us now.

[Ki-rin]

So how does NCM, as per 5eR RAW and separate from your house rules, affect game play in a superheroic setting?
NCM implies normal human of what we ITRW call ordinary flesh, blood, and bone.

That SFX has in play implications just as choosing your EB as Ice Blast does or choosing that you are super strong because you are super dense or ...

[Hyper-Man]

The frequency argument can be used equally well vs. a character like Iron-Man (or Champions own Defender for that matter), the seemingly 'Poster Boy' for NCM. How often did the person wearing the Iron-Man suit not have access to its abilities in the classic* Avengers stories?

*Pre-Civil War.

[ghost-angel]

NCM implies normal human of what we ITRW call ordinary flesh, blood, and bone.

That SFX has in play implications just as choosing your EB as Ice Blast does or choosing that you are super strong because you are super dense or ...

NCM implies nothing of the sort.

Once More - NCM only states you pay double for Characteristics after a certain point (default 20 for Primaries).

There is no attached SFX of "normal person" in any way. Stop adding one.

[Ki-rin]

You didn't address him taking NCM I notice.

In fact, your entire argument of NCM comes from a non-RAW point of view so you don't get to shove RAW at us now.
The last sentence is BS. It implies that if anyone ever uses -a- House Rule, they have no belief in the RAW nor any right to use the RAW as supporting evidence on matters not related to a house rule.
That's illogical.

I did not have to do deal with the NCM issue because unless a player can come up with a proper rationale, his stats are -stats- not powers.

Not only would NCM while trying to attain Kal-El's stats be cost prohibitive, it also would violate the basic character concept.
The only time NCM might be appropriate for Kal-El is when he is under a red sun.

Such respect for, and enforcement of, character concept is -also- one of the oldest principles of HERO.

[Ki-rin]

NCM implies nothing of the sort.

Once More - NCM only states you pay double for Characteristics after a certain point (default 20 for Primaries).

There is no attached SFX of "normal person" in any way. Stop adding one.
Paying 2x for stats over a certain limit is the game mechanic bonus...

...as a consequence of choosing the SFX that you will play a heroic character (AKA "a normal") in a superhero campaign.

That has been there from day one.

So has the principle of running HERO so that play is true to a player's chosen SFX.

QED. A player with NCM has the SFX that they are what we would recognize as "normal" on a genetic level in their game world.
...and play should reflect that.

[ghost-angel]

In your game.

but that's not in the rules. Doesn't say it anywhere in the book.

Stopping forcing your SFX onto the rest of us.

NCM is a Mechanic. You must attach SFX for it to be meaningful. But it is does not imply or come with SFX by default.

[Ki-rin]

In your game.

but that's not in the rules. Doesn't say it anywhere in the book.

Stopping forcing your SFX onto the rest of us.

NCM is a Mechanic. You must attach SFX for it to be meaningful. But it is does not imply or come with SFX by default.
EVERY mechanic or group of mechanics that produces an effect comes with a SFX by default.

That's always been one of the meta-rules of HERO.

I'm not forcing any SFX. The SFX is chosen when the effect is chosen.
It is always supposed to be.

[ghost-angel]

It is - and Normal Human is but one choice. Not the default or only choice.

You keep forcing Normal Human onto it. You don't have to choose that SFX for NCM.

[Ki-rin]

It is - and Normal Human is but one choice. Not the default or only choice.

You keep forcing Normal Human onto it. You don't have to choose that SFX for NCM.
It's in the bloodly description of the mechanic.

That's as "default" as it gets.

If =YOUR= House Rules are otherwise, fine for you.
But NCM means the SFX of a normal human in a superhero campign is canon RAW and has been for 20+ years.

If having it in print in front of you is not convincing enough, then we've got nothing to talk about on this topic.

You hate the NCM mechanic. Fine. But your hate has made you irrational about it.

Barring a change in either of our PoV on this topic, you and I have nothing left to talk about regarding it.

[ghost-angel]

sure it isn't. I don't hate NCM at all, I've argued for it for a while. You've ceased to amuse me, plonk.