Followup: Newbie help please!

[Hawkie]

Hi again!

This is a follow-up on my previous question “Newbie help please!” and an invitation for discussion or comments.

I was a bit surprised that this was not implemented better in the program considering I see many uses for this particular setup. In the example from the book it was a mage casting a spell granting a power to the target.

I can see many more uses that are similar:

An Alchemist making potions that he sells/gives other to use.
A Weaponsmith that makes weapons and gives/sells them.
An Enchanter that makes magical artifacts for others to use.
An Engineer that makes devises for others to use.
A Programmer that makes Programs that other use.

In all this cases a person uses his abilities/power to create something that someone else is using in a later scenario.

The answer I got was I should put the granted power in the notes or “display” area of a Custom Power. That is not the most easy to do considering that is not possible to mark, copy and paste. I have to export it first to be able to copy and paste the wanted text. Or am I missing something?

I most also be able to keep the Total cost of the power in my head so I can put it in the Custom power.

So far so good… until it is time to make changes, then the entire thing has to start over again…

What I would like is somehow make this easier.

Example:



1 Create Alchemy Potion: Potion of Giant Strenght (7 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost 10x END (-4), Extra Time 20 Minutes (-2 1/2), OAF Immobile Expendable (Focus: Laboratory; Difficult to obtain new Focus; -2 1/4), Arrangement (-1/4), Requires A Skill: Alchemy Roll (-1/2), Gestures: Mixing Ingredience (-1/4), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4) [Notes: Potion of Giant Strenght: Aid: Str 4d6 (Custom Adder), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes) (+1/2); 1 Charges which Never Recover (-4), Independent (-2), OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Gestures: Drinking (-1/4) ]

0 Potion of Giant Strenght: Aid: Str 4d6 (Custom Adder), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes) (+1/2); 1 Charges which Never Recover (-4), Independent (-2), OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), Gestures: Drinking (-1/4)

Otherwise I am happy with Hero Designer. We will see if I found anything else to wonder over. Hopefully anyone here can point me in the right direction when I get lost inside my own mind.

/T

[Simon]

It is not a commonly used construct. The main reason being that it is not an ability that the "caster" can use on their own.

For instance, Arkelos cannot fly through the use of the spell you mentioned.

If you want to make a spell that is usable on others, and/or by the one casting it, then it is a "standard" construct and very easy to create in the app: just place UOO on the ability itself.

The example that you sited is in no way "simple" however and is not worth bogging down the app in unnecessary complexity in order to accomodate.

[Simon]

To continue with the examples you site above:

<dl><dt>An Alchemist making potions that he sells/gives other to use. </dt>
<dd>This is a classic UBO Power. The Alchemist can use the potions, or he can give them away.</dd>
<dt>A Weaponsmith that makes weapons and gives/sells them.</dt>
<dd>Depending on the campaign that you're running, this is either simply "Weaponsmith" (the Skill) or various power constructs with UBO placed on them. Again, the weaponsmith is just as capable (often moreso) of using his creations as the people he gives them to</dd>
<dt>An Enchanter that makes magical artifacts for others to use.</dt>
<dd>Again, same thing. The only time this is different is in cases like the example in FREd, where the caster cannot use the Power on himself. That is the only case in which you need to do some maneuvering within HD. The reasons this will remain the case are stated above</dd>
<dt>An Engineer that makes devises for others to use.</dt>
<dd>An engineer can use his own devices. This is another example of UBO.</dd>
<dt>A Programmer that makes Programs that other use.</dt>
<dd>A programmer can definitely use his own programs. You would either define these as UBO or build them into a Computer/AI which could be taken by anyone...including the programmer.</dd>
</dl>

[Talon]

Would it be possible for v2 to draw the cost of a Custom Power from another power (selected via a list, like with Linked)? That way you could build the power with the benefits of HD and still get the cost dynamically created. Everyone wins. :)

[Simon]

Still doesn't work.

The type of construct that Hawkie wants to build means that the actual Power itself is not paid for in the normal manner.

10" of Flight, x2 END costs 13 points

That cost is used as the "base cost" for the Modifiers that Arkelos applies to his casting of the Power (UBO, OAF, Gestures, Incantations, RSR).

If you want a somewhat more "automated" way to do things, then you would need to buy 10" of Flight with x2 END (13 points), buy a Naked Modifier for UBO against a 13 point Power (3 points) and buy another Naked Modifier for OAF, Gestures, Incantations and RSR against a 16 point Power -- the cost of the Flight plus the cost of the UBO -- (-11 points).

The sum total spent would be 13+3-11 = 5 points, exactly as stated in FREd.

[Talon]

Originally posted by dsimon
Still doesn't work.

The type of construct that Hawkie wants to build means that the actual Power itself is not paid for in the normal manner.

That's a trivial one, though -- buy it as Equipment, or put in a VPP, or use whatever you're going to do about the Turakian Age spell cost modifier to make it cost x0.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
That's a trivial one, though -- buy it as Equipment, or put in a VPP, or use whatever you're going to do about the Turakian Age spell cost modifier to make it cost x0.
You're still not following...

Look at the example way to build it using Naked Modifiers:

First you need to build the Power itself (and pay for it). Then you apply a Naked Advantage to it. So far, this is just a straight application of the Naked Advantage rules. You can't apply the Advantage directly to the Power, since it acts agains the Real Cost of the Power and not against the Base Cost (like a normal Advantage would).

Now you need to apply a Naked Limitation (or, in this case, Limitations, but that's the same thing). The trick is, that the Naked Limitation needs to be applied against the combination of the base Power's Real Cost and the Naked Advantage's Real Cost (16 points total).

Overall, what you're doing is going against the normal rules for calculating Active and Real Costs. You're figuring in a Limitation to the Base Cost before you apply Advantages. Then you're applying the Advantages and (finally) the remaining Limitations.

The original suggestion that I made (using a Custom Power) is still the easiest way to go about it (IMO).

Can something like this be accomodated in HD? Yes, by creating entirely new structures to put in on top of the existing Naked Modifier rules, complicating the entire process and making the construction of regular (more common) abilities far more complicated.

Will something like this be accomodated in HD? No. At least, not in the immediate future. If I come up with a way to work it in that does not make routine power construction more complicated, then I may put it into a v2 update.....but that's very low on the list of priorities.

[Talon]

Got it, I was missing a step there.

[Hawkie]

Hi again!

To begin with I am very thankful for all help. I am learning more and more, remember I am newbie at this. I am very grateful!

I think I figure out what my problem was from the beginning. I wanted to separate the preparation of a power and the actual using of that power. So thanks to your good advice I read the UBO (took me a few minutes to figure out what you meant by this) section again and also looked at Delayed Effect and Trigger. And I think I found an easy way to do what I want. Now is the question if it “legal” according to FREd?

Maybe I should post this in another part of the Forum now when it is no longer really related to Hero Designer?

The player I am GM wants to be an Alchemist so that’s why all of this started in the first place. He wants to be able to make potions (and risk the occasional explosion) and be out hunting for ingredients (and get toasted by a dragon) and use those premade potions!

So is this a good way to make his “spells” or potions:

------------------------------------------------------
Aid: Str 4d6 (The actual power used)
Trigger: Drinking Potion (+1/4) (The activation of the power)
Usable By Other (+1/4) (So that he and his mates can use it)

Active Cost: (60 Active Points)

Extra Time 20 Minutes (-2 1/2) (It takes time to make potions)
OAF Fragile (-1 1/4) (Bottle)
Requires A Alchemy Roll (-1/2) (The skill used)
Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2) (Just one drop… BOOM!)
Gestures: Mixing Ingredients (-1/4) (A little of that, and a little of this)

Real Cost: (10 points)
------------------------------------------------------

Once again thanks for the help dSimon!

/Hawkie
[/I]