END cost of AoE succor

[rbrcurtis]

at our gaming session last night we got into a long discussion on what the END cost of an AoE succor power should be. I get the impression that there is a rule somewhere that states that you pay the END cost for every person effected int he AoE, but I can't find that rule in the books anywhere. Could someone point it out?

A few more questions:

1) If the power has Selective on it, and the targets are willing, do you need to roll the attack roll anyway?

2) If someone moves out of the area, do they lose the effect? I assume yes, but don't see anything in the book saying so.

3) When they move back in, they get it back, yes? What if the person activating the power moves, bringing their friend into the AoE? Does the activator have to use an attack action in order to effect his friend? or is it a non-action attack roll?

Thanks!

[tesuji]

at our gaming session last night we got into a long discussion on what the END cost of an AoE succor power should be. I get the impression that there is a rule somewhere that states that you pay the END cost for every person effected int he AoE, but I can't find that rule in the books anywhere. Could someone point it out?

A few more questions:

1) If the power has Selective on it, and the targets are willing, do you need to roll the attack roll anyway?

2) If someone moves out of the area, do they lose the effect? I assume yes, but don't see anything in the book saying so.

3) When they move back in, they get it back, yes? What if the person activating the power moves, bringing their friend into the AoE? Does the activator have to use an attack action in order to effect his friend? or is it a non-action attack roll?

Thanks!

there is no special exception for succor so the end cost is base on the ap of the aoe effect.

1. i dont recall the rules for autohits but i THINK as long as they keep their dcv going it applies vs everything, even friendly attacks. i could be wrong.

2 and 3 boil down to "if in the area they get the bonus.


so 6d6 succor +1 aoe 3"r is 60 ap and costs 6 end whether there is one guy or twelve guys in the radius or even 100 really small guys.

[rbrcurtis]

Thank you.

As for question 1, on page 133 under "using aid", it says that if the target is willing to receive the aid, the attack roll succeeds automatically. I'm basically wondering if this extends to using selective in the AoE...

[Thia Halmades]

Thank you.

As for question 1, on page 133 under "using aid", it says that if the target is willing to receive the aid, the attack roll succeeds automatically. I'm basically wondering if this extends to using selective in the AoE...

Well, you pay for Selective, it's an Advantage. Since you can Selectively target your allies, and your allies require no attack roll, this is the canonical way to create an AOE field that only boosts your allies stats. So you pop the field, every ally in it who wants it gets it automatically (much as they would in any other AOE -- that's the whole AOE... thing.)

The bit here is less about it being Selective, and more about having it designed in a way (since as a Succor it must be maintained) that makes certain no bad guys get the bonus. So your final cost is the Base Cost for Succor at X dice, plus the +1 AOE Radius, plus the ... 1/2? for Selective (IDHMBIFOM, but I think that's right). So a 6d6 Succor at 5/die is 30 * 2.5 = 75 Active, with an END cost of 7/phase active.

[prestidigitator]

On the Selective bit, I'd probably use some dramatic sense. If one of your friends is in a hairy pitched hand-to-hand slug-out with an enemy, they might not even be aware of what you are doing, so I might make you roll an attack to affect them. There might be some other very limited circumstances in which I'd rule that opening oneself up to the Selective attack might also reduce DCV partially or fully against an opponent.

For targets leaving the area and coming back, I have mixed feelings. I might make you choose (when you create the power) whether it continues to affect people when they leave the area. If so, you wouldn't affect new targets when they enter. If not, I'd have you affect new targets who enter. For Selective/Non-Selective, you'd have to make a new attack roll, whether or not the target previously left the area. If it's Selective, you'd have to be aware of them and I'd probably make it a Zero-Phase action to do it (I'd let you try for any targets who newly entered the area after your last such roll or maybe since your last Phase). For Non-Selective, the attack would happen (probably immediately rather than on your Phase) whether you wanted it or not. Bonuses and drawbacks either way.

Just my take.

[Tech]

I've read what I could find on Aid (Succor), Area Effect, Constant & Persistent powers, AoE on Adjustment powers and so forth. I find that people leaving the Area Effect Succor would not lose the stats gained, that would be a disadvantage on the power.

The Area Effect allows a power to hit more than one target, whether selective or not - it doesn't change the power. Once an AE goes off, the targets are hit with the power which is Area Effected.

Succor merely states that as long as you expend END on it, the bonuses apply; once you stop paying END, all bonuses are gone. Area Effect mentions nothing about bonuses disappearing once leaving the AoE, merely that everyone in it would receive it.

Anyone find anything different?

[tesuji]

in FH page 125 where they discuss group powers like aoe invis they state that leaving the area loses the effect.

[Oruncrest]

at our gaming session last night we got into a long discussion on what the END cost of an AoE succor power should be. I get the impression that there is a rule somewhere that states that you pay the END cost for every person effected int he AoE, but I can't find that rule in the books anywhere. Could someone point it out?!

Normally, any power (not just Succor) affects a single target, and to affect another target, you would make another attack roll and pay END for each target you want to affect.

However, you paid to target an area, not a person. You only have to make 1 attack roll (unless of course, you bought it No Range and targeted yourself (a willing subject);)) and only have to pay END once (besides, the END cost will automatically be increased for the Area Effect. Why 'double-dip'?). That you paid extra to affect individuals inside the area doesn't change this (and the END cost will be increased yet again for the selective advantage as well. You wanna 'triple-dip'?).


A few more questions:

1) If the power has Selective on it, and the targets are willing, do you need to roll the attack roll anyway?!

I would say yes, because I see area effect working as an 'eruption' from the point of origin, expanding until it reaches its limits. Adding Selective to it changes the 'expanding eruption' to 'beams' being cast - and 'beams' can miss their target or worse, hit the wrong target either by accident (the person you were trying to help moves when you wanted him to stand still) or intention (the Enemy, seeing you prepare your 'Buff' holds his action and when you fire, uses the Interposing rules on pg. 160 of The Ultimate Martial Artist or Dives For Cover into the Buff).

My way of having you go around this would be to add Indirect at the +1/4 level. That way, it would act like an 'aerosol' or 'radience' - covering everything but affecting only those the caster wants to affect.


2) If someone moves out of the area, do they lose the effect? I assume yes, but don't see anything in the book saying so.!

No. So long as the caster continues to pay the END cost per phase for the Succor, the Beneficiaries can move out of the area and keep the effect. Of course, if the caster casts another buff, any of the beneficiaries outside of the area won't receive the second buff. but hopefully, they'll be doing fine without it. :p


3) When they move back in, they get it back, yes? What if the person activating the power moves, bringing their friend into the AoE? Does the activator have to use an attack action in order to effect his friend? or is it a non-action attack roll?!

If you want to simuate 2) & 3), add the Limitation 'Effects of the Succor only work within the Area of Effect', -1/2 (suggested value). That way, the Beneficiaries will still under the effect even if they move too far away fom the Caster

All of the above, of course is my point of view on how Area Effect, Selective, and Indirect would interact together with a base power. Other GMs might see it differently. :thumbup::thumbdown

[Tech]

in FH page 125 where they discuss group powers like aoe invis they state that leaving the area loses the effect.

I'm assuming you mean Fantasy Hero by FH. So, why do we need to go to a different book to see this discussion? Makes you wonder.

Invisibility is a Standard Power/Sense-Affecting Power, Succor (Aid) is an Adjustment Power. They don't function the same way. I see Succor being similar to Power Drain as both are Instant powers whereas Invisibility is a Constant power. An Instant power, such as Drain does it's damage and it stays; when Succor is used, it does it's stat adjustment and stays just as long as the End is paid for and when the End is not payed for, the stat adjustment ends.

I would think that leaving the area would not necessarily loose the effect of the Succor anymore than someone leaving the area of a Drain would have all their stats back to normal instantly.

[Thia Halmades]

The answer y'all are looking for is: Uncontrolled.

It allows you to activate a power, devote END to it (as applicable) and then you can lose LOS, they can leave the area, whatever, and voila! They still have the power in question.

That's what Uncontrolled is canonically for.

[Hyper-Man]

...

Invisibility is a Standard Power/Sense-Affecting Power, Succor (Aid) is an Adjustment Power. They don't function the same way. I see Succor being similar to Power Drain as both are Instant powers whereas Invisibility is a Constant power. An Instant power, such as Drain does it's damage and it stays; when Succor is used, it does it's stat adjustment and stays just as long as the End is paid for and when the End is not payed for, the stat adjustment ends.

...

Actually Succor is a constant power that's just an alternative to Aid in the same way that Suppress is to Drain.

from 5er page 134


OPTIONAL AID: SUCCOR
As an option for Aid, GMs can allow characters to buy a slightly different form of the Power known as Succor. Succor is a Constant Power with No Range; using it requires an Attack Action, as with regular Aid. Succor costs END to use.

And If you don't have 5er here's the same info from the 5e FAQ (http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=Hero+System+Fifth+Edition&section=&keywords=suppress&dateString=):


Is the optional Succor form of Aid a Constant Power, subject to the normal rules governing Constant Powers, or an Instant Power that just requires END expenditure to maintain its effects?

It’s a Constant Power. Think of it as being more or less like Suppress in reverse. When a character activates it, it adds the amount of Character Points rolled on the dice. The character maintains these by paying END each Phase; if he stops paying END, the added points immediately vanish. (If a character wants to buy the power to 0 END, apply the same rules as for Reduced Endurance on Suppress, 5E 145.) The power does not go on adding and adding more Character Points every Phase automatically; the END paid simply maintains the points added by the first roll. To add more points, the character has to use an Attack Action, roll the dice again, and pay more END — and, as with Suppress, the character can keep adding effect this way without worrying about the maximum effect rules for ordinary Aid.

[Hyper-Man]

at our gaming session last night we got into a long discussion on what the END cost of an AoE succor power should be. I get the impression that there is a rule somewhere that states that you pay the END cost for every person effected int he AoE, but I can't find that rule in the books anywhere. Could someone point it out?

A few more questions:

1) If the power has Selective on it, and the targets are willing, do you need to roll the attack roll anyway?

2) If someone moves out of the area, do they lose the effect? I assume yes, but don't see anything in the book saying so.

3) When they move back in, they get it back, yes? What if the person activating the power moves, bringing their friend into the AoE? Does the activator have to use an attack action in order to effect his friend? or is it a non-action attack roll?

Thanks!

1) No as long as you have line of sight.
2) This depends on how you want the build to behave. The range after the first use of a Succor/Suppress is line of site to the target. AOE is just removing the initial touch requirement from that first use. However, there is also a section under the power description for Suppress dealing with combining it with AOE for a "Suppression Field". No reason you couldn't make a "Succor Field" as well. But that's a 1-time decision.
3) See the rules for Suppression Fields.

[prestidigitator]

Ooh! I kinda like that Selective+Indirect combo for automatically affecting allies. Hmm. I'll have to think on that one. Rep if I can.