Fantasy Magic System

[Troy S. Cash]

Been playing Champions since day one but 5-6 years since the last Fantasy Hero campaign.

What Magic system seems to work well for you folks?

I'm thinking of small VVP's (Part of the Mage Package) and allowing Multipowers with a specific special effect definition (based on special effect - fire/ice or concept thaumaturgy/sorcery or even focus set of wands.

Limits on the Multipowers would be the VPP size + other real points in non-multi spells.

VPP size / 2 slots max per multipower.

So a starting Wizard I just designed bought a 10 pt VPP and 24 pts in other spells. He could now make a Multipower with a max size of 34 pts and 5 slots.

Any thoughts?
-1/2 Spell roll is required, -1 per 10 active.
-1/4 limitation - Mystic Power (level of mana varies around campaign world)
-1/4 Limit for Multi - Size limited by Mage Power

End reserve is required but doesn't count towards the calcs above.

The VPP plan is to allow Hedge Mages (5-10 pt VPP's) but not much else but even those would be rare.

I want a variety of spells which I hope the small VPP's and Multi's would allow without the excessive point cost building them a super-powers runs into.

[ghost-angel]

I've used straight Multipower Pools to good effect in the past.

I've just written up a completely Skill based system for use in a campaign I've just started. When I have some solid info on how it works I'll post it, expect that in a week or so, we're on gaming session 2 right now.

[Troy S. Cash]

I've used straight Multipower Pools to good effect in the past.

I've just written up a completely Skill based system for use in a campaign I've just started. When I have some solid info on how it works I'll post it, expect that in a week or so, we're on gaming session 2 right now.

The only problem I've had with Multi's is having to say "No you can't spend that 3 experience putting 3 new spells (slots) into it" or having to put strict limits, only fire spells etc.

I prefer to arrange it so they have to build in more ways to expand.

[Troy S. Cash]

Do you think swords are balanced by a Mages flexability? The swordsman needs more str and the WS but that's still cheaper than the spell.

[AmadanNaBriona]

As you're new here, you haven't been introduced to Killer Shrike's site yet, so I'll post the link before he does...

Magic System Design (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.aspx)

He's put a lot of skull sweat into analyzing the pro's and con's of various magic system design principles, and has about a gazillion pre-built systems up as examples or that can be gaffled whole cloth if you're pressed for time or feeling uninspired.

That aside, welcome!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Do you think swords are balanced by a Mages flexability? The swordsman needs more str and the WS but that's still cheaper than the spell.

This totally depends on your campaign guidelines and limits. If you're strict with one archetype and lenient with another, then balance will suffer.

In general, the strongest balance bias I've seen in Fantasy Hero is in favor of what Rolemaster used to call a Semi-spellcaster. Effective fighting skills can come fairly cheap, and backing those skills up with a small assortment of complimentary powers can make a disproportionately nasty character for the points.

It the modern era of higher powered cinematic/fiction style Talents like Deadly Blow and Combat Luck, however, the difference is much reduced from previous editions.

[Troy S. Cash]

That aside, welcome!

Thx for the Site and the welcome, wish I'd found this a few years ago. I was looking for new mats and found this too. Fun!

[Troy S. Cash]

This totally depends on your campaign guidelines and limits. If you're strict with one archetype and lenient with another, then balance will suffer.

Yeah, last time I played as a mage I got scragged three times, so then I spent all my points on stats, OCV points, a sword and a big bow. Tank scragged a few back and was way cheaper. Easily beat other player mages with 30-40 experience.

That's why I'm playing with the balance issues, then looking to see if there were any newer FH supplements broung me here. :)

[ghost-angel]

The various magic systems Steve has concocted for the Fantasy Settings all look to be nicely balanced. But I've not had a chance to play-test any of them personally.

[Troy S. Cash]

The various magic systems Steve has concocted for the Fantasy Settings all look to be nicely balanced. But I've not had a chance to play-test any of them personally.

Some of them didn't fit the world I'm aiming for (or at least) didn't seem too. And I'm trying to avoid the ones that don't use the core rules. Like dividing the real point cost by 3 to buy the spell.

Also want something I don't make most of the spells for, my friends are used to champions, they like to design so don't mind spending a few hours fiddling with advantages & limitations to make spells. I just want them to be able to compete with that longbow without being able to nuke towns.

6 of one have dozen of another and the thirds a hex. So I'll probably have to pick a bunch of styles, give one to each player. Give em x points and then see how well they kill each other, the swordsmen, the bowmen and that ugly dragon over there.

[Markdoc]

The only problem I've had with Multi's is having to say "No you can't spend that 3 experience putting 3 new spells (slots) into it" or having to put strict limits, only fire spells etc.

I prefer to arrange it so they have to build in more ways to expand.

I use multis pretty widely but in general require in-game roleplaying to acquire new slots: either finding new spells or a prolonged period of downtime and the necessary research skills.

The current game uses primarily VPPs but the same rule is in force to prevent the VPP from morphing into the "solve anything" power.

This is always explained up front and the players have always been cool with it.

cheers, Mark

[mayapuppies]

Yeah, last time I played as a mage I got scragged three times, so then I spent all my points on stats, OCV points, a sword and a big bow. Tank scragged a few back and was way cheaper. Easily beat other player mages with 30-40 experience.

That's why I'm playing with the balance issues, then looking to see if there were any newer FH supplements broung me here. :)
In my game world we use a modified VPP for one style of magic and an Elemental Control for the other. of course, these only cover the non-faith based magic systems.

If you're interested you can find out more about them in the links in my Sig. It should also cover your search for newer FH supplements.

[ghost-angel]

The only problem I've had with Multi's is having to say "No you can't spend that 3 experience putting 3 new spells (slots) into it" or having to put strict limits, only fire spells etc.

I prefer to arrange it so they have to build in more ways to expand.

If you're having that problem then the issue isn't mechanics.

[shadowcat1313]

I've never been a big fan of the VPP in general, even with its high cost, in a lot of cases it gives too much flexibility, I allow multipowers to be used, but there are going to be a lot of limitations on the MP

[Troy S. Cash]

If you're having that problem then the issue isn't mechanics.

True but I prefer to have a rational set of rules that follow the system rules as much as possible for building. I don't want spells to common which can be a prob with frameworks, but without them most mages don't ahve that Fantasy book "feel".

If they have to take a limitation that itself prevents them from suddenly buying 3 new slots I consider that better than "Nope, not allowed"

I wouldn't be stopping the warrior from buying more OCV, learning crossbows or even buying more Str, body etc. So why can't a mage buy spells? I wnat them to but want so restraints to force them to think and plan instead of look Nuclear Fireball! after killing a few Orc's or worse having to save points for weeks or months of real time to get the spell.

[Troy S. Cash]

I've never been a big fan of the VPP in general, even with its high cost, in a lot of cases it gives too much flexibility, I allow multipowers to be used, but there are going to be a lot of limitations on the MP

I was wondering, I liked the VPP idea for allowing 'cantrips" but don't want it to powerful, maybe max being there Int or something for the campaign. I was also thinking about them having to buy a multipower and a spell skill for various magic styles. Sorcery, Thaumaturgy, Necromancy etc.

I did a spell last night using variable advantage and then using a multipower to similuate it instead. The costs weren't too different but the multipower allows other powers that fit into the special effect.

Just gitta think, been to long since it wasn't supers punching through battle-tanks. Forgotten good sword vs sorcery balancing ideas.

Also my players before showed that they often liked to take their mages, remove some limits and buy some new stuff and turn them into supers for the next champions campaign after the Fantasy Hero playing.

One guy was always in a suit of powered-armor no matter what we played. But he played the scinece wonder trapped in the Magic dimension well so I let him.

[Egyptoid]

Kamarathin (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59875&filters=0_0_10010) looks good so far, I'm reading it now for inspiration

[Rapier]

The only problem I have, in general, with the MP Spells idea is that the Active Costs of some spells are out of proportion with their utility.

We've all run into the 90 pt FlashLight or the 80 pt Taser. You just need to be aware of it and be willing to either wave the points (you have a spell that can create fire and we'll just call it a light source without you building it as a light source) or work within them.

[mayapuppies]

Kamarathin (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59875&filters=0_0_10010) looks good so far, I'm reading it now for inspiration
Please let me know what you think, I'm always open to more reviews and commentaries.

[DrunkonDUty]

Posted by Troy S. Cash
If they have to take a limitation that itself prevents them from suddenly buying 3 new slots I consider that better than "Nope, not allowed"


You could simply insist that they must learn the spell from somewhere or develop it themself. This takes time/resources. Requires a skill rolls to learn.

Maybe limit the spells that can be chosen. Possibly a different MP or VPP for each different school of magic.

Maybe bring back the 4th ed* idea of mages needing to know X points of spells before being able to qualify for tougher spells. (Something like a -1/2 limitation and X need to be 1 for each 10AC of the spell learned, IIRC.)



*I'm guessing it's gone as it doesn't seem to be in the Fantasy Hero Grimoire 2 that I own but I don't have Fantasy Hero and so don't know for sure.

any of that help?

[Killer Shrike]

Magic System Design (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.aspx)
Magic Systems (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/ShrikeMagicSystems.aspx)
Limitations for Spells (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/GeneralSpellRestrictions.aspx)

Lots of details there that might help you, including complete systems based on VPPs, Multipowers, EC's, Skills, and more unusual designs. There are also sample characters given for each of the Magic Systems.

As far as the concern around VPP's and MP's being able to add more powers quickly, you as the GM / Magic System designer can put restrictions around the learning / adding of new abilities on any system you care to as part of the definition of how that system works. I call this a Acquisition & Access Control (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign_ControlFactors.aspx#ACCESS_CONTR OL). There are various ways to do this, ranging from a formula of some type to set hard limits, to a softer limit such as requiring time-consuming research and / or "learning" requirements, and variations on that theme such as requiring one or more skill rolls with one or more skills as part of the research or learning process. Etc. The size of the MP or VPP involved controls the raw potency, and higher AP powers might be more difficult to add. Bottom line, you can easily control the rapidity with which new abilities are added.

[Worldmaker]

No offense to Killer Shrike, but his website reads like stereo instructions... that are written in Korean.

[Killer Shrike]

Odd, most other people besides you seem to be able to understand it. I guess they are all Korean speaking audiophiles. That, or....

[ghost-angel]

I follow 'em just fine. If anything, I'd just make the column wider - but that's design not information. :)

[Killer Shrike]

I follow 'em just fine. If anything, I'd just make the column wider - but that's design not information. :)

It's sized for 800x600. Old skool, but still a general web standard. The pages should also print as they appear on the screen as well at the current sizing. ;)

[ghost-angel]

Oh, I know it's for 800x600. Not a big deal, I just generally abandoned designing for anything less than 1024x768 a few years ago. Just a design choice.

I for one, have never had issues reading the site - and I especially like your navigation menu.

[Killer Shrike]

Oh, I know it's for 800x600. Not a big deal, I just generally abandoned designing for anything less than 1024x768 a few years ago. Just a design choice.

I for one, have never had issues reading the site - and I especially like your navigation menu.

Yeah, I'll prolly move away from 8x6 over the next year or two...it is definitely dying off as the de facto. There is one problem w/ the nav menu tho -- it doesnt work in Safari and Chrome. I played around w/ an alternative that worked in S & C as well as IE, Op and FF but it kinda sucked so I opted (for now) to stick with the IE / Op / FF one. My hope is that S & C, being the newer browsers, will grow to support the floating boxes and I wont have to do anything.

And thanks for the vote of confidence. :thumbup:

[Blue Jogger]

No offense to Killer Shrike, but his website reads like stereo instructions... that are written in Korean.

It is somewhat daunting to look at Killer Shrike's website, there's a lot of good information that has taken years to collect, write, edit, etc.

I finally got most of my system ironed out, in part by reading the website, but also trial and error. You really don't figure out what's wrong with your system until your players break it. Then you go back and figure out why they shouldn't have been able to do that.