Immunity to Electric Attacks

[Clovis]

I have a rubber-man on my in the team. I was wondering the best why to make the player truly immune. I was thinking Life Support, but I'm not sure if that was the right way to go about it.

[Steve Long]

This is a how-to, so I've moved it to the Discussion board so that other people can participate. ;)

Here's my two cents. Generally speaking, except for a few limited exceptions there's no way to render a character totally, 100%, immune to any sort of attack in the HERO System. This is part of the game's design philosophy, since (a) absolutes tend to be undramatic, unbalancing, and no fun in a gaming context, and (b) even in fiction, "absolute" defenses (and other absolutes) usually turn out not to be so absolute after all.

If you want an "official" way to make a character invulnerable to electricity, you don't use Life Support. You buy however much Resistant Energy Defense you need to protect the character from what the GM would generally consider to be the most powerful electrical attack the character's likely to face. Then the GM invokes the Absolute Effect Rule (which is discussed in Fantasy Hero) and declares: "Regardless of how much damage an electricity attack does, this power constitutes total, 100%, protection against it."

[Clovis]

Thank you! Sorry about that.

[Steve Long]

No apologies necessary at all. ;) And besides, it may "spark" an interesting conversation. :D Or at least a link to a thread where someone's raised a similar issue.

[prestidigitator]

Desolidification can also be an effective way to do this, but unfortunately it also requires specific GM consent for you to not have to buy the expensive Affects Physical World Advantage on all your offensive powers and Str. A few people have also created a house rule that adds a 100% level to Damage Reduction for this purpose, but I've never gone with this one and I don't have any immediate advice on cost or other balancing factors.

[braincraft]

Some people use various Desolid builds to simulate total immunity, but it requires some house ruling and always feels like a kludge.



edit: Er, yeah. Hit post too late.

[Alibear]

+50 resistant ed, only v electricity (-1) would keep you just peachy in my campaign.

[JohnTaber]

+50 resistant ed, only v electricity (-1) would keep you just peachy in my campaign.

This is my vote. :)

[dsatow]

I'd also go for the extra ED vs electricity, mainly because dependent on the amount of power in the electrical strike would determine whether the rubber would survive or just be reduced to ash. Another solution is instead of outright defenses only, DCV vs electrical attacks (-1) might also be good as being made of rubber you are less likely to be hit by lightning having little conductive on you (electricity likes to travel the path of least resistance).

[Vulcan]

The thing to bear in mind is that electrical attacks can be built as E-Blasts, RKA's, Drains, Supresses (Supress Body as a 'heart stopping' effect), or even Entangles (Tasers are a prime example of this).

Just something for GM's to bear in mind. If a PC has paid points for ED vs. Electriciy and expects to be immune to electricity, either tell them up front that tasers will still leave them twitching on the ground (since it is an Entangle or Drain), or allow them to be immune to the oddball electrical effects as well...

[Sean Waters]

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and, whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.

Even rubber melts if you put enough potential across it.

[Split Decision]

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and, whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.

Even rubber melts if you put enough potential across it.

I would allow an exotic VPP, Cosmic, Only to Counteract Electricity-SFX Powers (-2).

20 * (+2) / (-2) = 20 control, 40 = 40 point pool... 60 active points to make the countermeasure of your choice up to 40 active points.

[Sean Waters]

One house rule we dicussed previously, and I can not find now, was to use a sort of Life Support, but cost it rather differently. I've never been that happy with LS:Heat - it is almost meaningless. Instead of a fixed cost you could buy LS in three flavours:

1 point: you can ignore 1DC from a rare attack form hard radiation
2 points: you can ignore 1 DC from an uncommon attack form eg cold/sonics/electricity
3 points: you can ignore 1 DC from a common attack form eg fire/heat

SO, you can buy 24 points of LS: electricity, and that means you basically ignore the first 12DC of electricity damage - if someone hits you with 20d6 ELECTRIC BLAST or a 6 1/2d6 ELECTROKILL, that's 20DCs, but you ignore the first 12DC so they only roll 8DC of damage against you (8d6 and 2 1/2d6 respectively) - and then normal defences apply.

It is simple, it is clear and it works pretty well. It is a form of scaleable invulnerability.

[prestidigitator]

The thing to bear in mind is that electrical attacks can be built as E-Blasts, RKA's, Drains, Supresses (Supress Body as a 'heart stopping' effect), or even Entangles (Tasers are a prime example of this).

Just something for GM's to bear in mind. If a PC has paid points for ED vs. Electriciy and expects to be immune to electricity, either tell them up front that tasers will still leave them twitching on the ground (since it is an Entangle or Drain), or allow them to be immune to the oddball electrical effects as well...

That's why I favor the very limited Desolidification myself. It can potentially protect against any form of attack that falls under the applicable SFX, no matter what mechanics the attack is built with.

[JmOz]

In my games I allow what I call Unified defence, I stole the term from a similar but different ability in Ultamate Energy Projector:

MY VERSION OF IT costs 1 point per point of UD. When you buy UD you must choose an appropriate special effect that it will protect from, the GM can apply a limitation to it if he feels that the F/X is focused enough to require it (Broad like Magic would be a -0, Something like electricity would probably warrent a -1/4 or -1/2 depending on some factors). The defence is not resistant but can be made so with DR. The defence then works against all attacks made by that F/X no matter the normal defence power (So it works as Flash defence, Mental defence, Power Defence, Energy Defence, Physical Defence, Lack of Weakness). This does stack with normal defences

[prestidigitator]

Cool. I like that idea JmOz. We could probably figure out how to apply it to even more unusual attacks as well. Have it add to the DCs of Str and attack powers for breaking out of Entangles maybe (probably at a ratio of 3 AP : 1 DC like a HA). Give a bonus to Per rolls for Images and such, and remove penalties to rolls imposed by Change Environment at a similar ratio. Something like that.

[Sean Waters]

I like the JmOz Universal Defence idea and the prestidigitator amendment, and whilst might want to tweak the costs a little it sounds like a very good idea.

[Killer Shrike]

Amp (http://www.killershrike.com/HERONet/Amp.HTML)
Namorita (http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Supers/Marvel/NewWarriors/Namorita.HTML)
N3 (http://www.killershrike.com/HERONet/N3.HTML)


Also, one of the pregens in my Project: PREDATOR adventure in Digital HERO is a basically a human capacitar and has several Electrical powers including a resistance to Electrical damage.

[JmOz]

I like the JmOz Universal Defence idea and the prestidigitator amendment, and whilst might want to tweak the costs a little it sounds like a very good idea.

Actualy the reason for the UD not being resistant was because of playtesting, originaly I allowed it to be resistant, then rPD & rED, then not resistant at all, found that to be about right. It is DEFINATLY a stop sign power btw.

As for adding other abilities, I am reluctant to do so, but if you did I would say that it would be 5points = 1dc for breaking abilities, maybe raise the cost to 2 points per point if you wanted a form us Super UD that included the other stuff...interesting ideas...

[prestidigitator]

It's just an orthogonal slice of the same loaf as far as I am concerned. We normally cut things one way for physical, energy, mental, flash, etc. Cutting orthogonally we can do it by SFX instead. As long as we make sure the slices are about as narrow in the SFX direction as they are in the mechanical direction, I don't see why they can't have the same cost as normal defences (and there lies the rub I suppose, since SFX are a lot more subjective, but as long as the GM is comfortable with judging that...).

[Alibear]

This makes me think that we do need a Universal Special Effect Defence power and then we cost it or limit depending on it's usefulness.

[Sean Waters]

Just ramblin', but...I've costed out 'defence' as a build, when we've been chatting about invulnerability and it works out at something ridiculously expensive:

Take 30 active points of attack (which works OK for pretty much all base attack costs without having to fiddle with half dice)

That is 6DC or normal or killing attack. Killing attack is harder to defence against so:

12 Body and 60 stun:

60 pd, 12 of which needs to be resistant and 48 of which only stops Stun:

12pd + 6 points Dam Res + (48pd@-1/2): a total of 48 points.

You need the same for energy attacks, 96 points, already and we've JUST covered normal and killing attacks.

You need 36 points of power defence, 12 points of sight flash, 20 points of hearing flash (we'll ignore the other senses), 36 points of mental defence, ans 10 points of KBR.

That's 220 points right there - and it still doesn't cover all the bases - to guarantee immunity to the effects of 30 points worth of attack, or a cost per point of 'Universal defence' (UD) of a little over 7 points.

Of course that deals with maximums - if we assume that average damage is likely and we therefore only need to defend against say 4 points in 6, the cost drops to around 5 points per 1 point of UD. Even if you decide 'electrical damage only' is a -2 limitation, that is still 1 to 2 points per point of 'electrical defence' - which is silly IMO.

ANyway, I thought I'd throw that in to demonstrate that whilst defences against a specific attack are cheap, defences against a specific sfx are not.

There are, of course, other approaches, and here's an interesting one:

Suppress 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), all electrical powers simultaneously (+2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible to Hearing, and Sight Groups (+3/4) (237 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

237 active, 118 real

Which is a kind of personal power supression field, which nullifies 30 active points of electrical power that hits you, and works aout at about 4 points for 1 point of 'defence'. it would be cheaper if I had not made it invisible: 200 active, 100 real, so 3 1/3 points per point of defence.

I'm not saying that is right ether, I'm just looking at comparisons and options.

[Markdoc]

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and, whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.

Yep, that'd be my approach as well. That makes the character nigh-immune to electrical attacks - he'd take about 17 STUN from a 20d6 electrical attack, even he had no defences. If he's got any significant ED a 20d6 attack is unlikely to even stun him.

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

75% resistant energy damage reduction (only v electricity -2 - come on guys - half of energy attacks are not electricity) will cost you 20 points and, whilst it is by no means immunity it does work against absolutely everything electrical no matter how it is built and basically means you can take 4 times as much electricity damage as damage of any other kind.

Even rubber melts if you put enough potential across it.

So how do you account for the second part? I was thinking that there should be some accounting for it - so 75% resistant (only vs electricity -2; does not work against attacks greater than 20DC -1/4).

I realise that this doesn't actually save that much more points but it does put a limit on the protection such that once the resistance is broken you get a pretty complete meltdown....


Doc

[Sean Waters]

So how do you account for the second part? I was thinking that there should be some accounting for it - so 75% resistant (only vs electricity -2; does not work against attacks greater than 20DC -1/4).

I realise that this doesn't actually save that much more points but it does put a limit on the protection such that once the resistance is broken you get a pretty complete meltdown....


Doc

Building a defence that catastrophically fails under excess load. You've got a nasty streak, Doc.

Prophylactica appeared to be taking Ohm's electrical lashing comfortably until he made one final titanic effort to overload her and with a bubbling hiss her rubber costume seemed to virtually evaporate, revealing that she did, indeed, shop at Victoria's Secret. Ohm advanced on her prostrate form, presumably to check her labels...

[Doc Democracy]

Building a defence that catastrophically fails under excess load. You've got a nasty streak, Doc.

I got the idea from your suggestions for killing attack and resistant defence. :)


Prophylactica appeared to be taking Ohm's electrical lashing comfortably until he made one final titanic effort to overload her and with a bubbling hiss her rubber costume seemed to virtually evaporate, revealing that she did, indeed, shop at Victoria's Secret. Ohm advanced on her prostrate form, presumably to check her labels...

I think that this could go uncommented.... :D

[Alibear]

Me laughed.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Honestly...I rarely build a completely immune character. I'm building an electrically resistant character and will probably just use a combination of resistant ED and some Damage Reduction to simulate it. You have the extra ED to cover damage and the Damage Reduction to cover the exotic attacks. There...done. Not sure where the -2 is coming from though. All the official writeups for resistant electrical characters(or fire..what have you) list the limitation as -1/2.

Rob

[Hugh Neilson]

Honestly...I rarely build a completely immune character. I'm building an electrically resistant character and will probably just use a combination of resistant ED and some Damage Reduction to simulate it. You have the extra ED to cover damage and the Damage Reduction to cover the exotic attacks. There...done. Not sure where the -2 is coming from though. All the official writeups for resistant electrical characters(or fire..what have you) list the limitation as -1/2.

All official writeups, and the official -1/2 limitation, are assinine. Damage Reduction against all energy defense is worth considerably more than a 50%premium over damage reduction versus electricity only. Therefore, restricting it to Electricity Only should be a limitation far greater than -1/2.

If "only vs electrictity" is -1/2, then "not vs electricity" should be what, -2? 60 points with a -1/2 limitation = 40 and 60 with a -2 = 20. Add those together, and we get defenses that work vs all energy attacks, which costs 60, so the two should sum up close, if not exactly equal.

[Split Decision]

All official writeups, and the official -1/2 limitation, are assinine. Damage Reduction against all energy defense is worth considerably more than a 50%premium over damage reduction versus electricity only. Therefore, restricting it to Electricity Only should be a limitation far greater than -1/2.


Agreed. Probably -1 to -2 depending upon how exotic the type of energy is.

[Sean Waters]

Honestly...I rarely build a completely immune character. I'm building an electrically resistant character and will probably just use a combination of resistant ED and some Damage Reduction to simulate it. You have the extra ED to cover damage and the Damage Reduction to cover the exotic attacks. There...done. Not sure where the -2 is coming from though. All the official writeups for resistant electrical characters(or fire..what have you) list the limitation as -1/2.

Rob


I was running a game recently with campaign average damages of around 8-9 DC - not much more than that for 'general' attacks, and one character - Spitfire - was supposed to be massively resistant to energy damage, so I gave her 32 ED (22 from a force field) so she should have been virtually immune to energy int he campaign. She gets hit with a 3d6 RKA which rolls 15 (x5) and she takes 43 through defences - enough, as it happens to both stun her and put her at -12 stun. Nasty.

Had I spent those points on damage reduction instead she might have been a bit better off on the stun (50% energy damage reduction, costs END = 20 points): she'd have taken 37 stun (27 taking into account her base ED if there was any resistant defence there at all. Still stunned but at least not unconscious).

That was a comparatively low point campaign and I could not really justify the cost of both high defences and damage reduction (the energy 'immunity' was more general), but it does illustrate just how hard 'genuine' immunity is to accomplish in Hero.

As to the -1/2 for 'only v electricity' - what Hugh said :)

I don't get the limitation values sometimes: I'd make 'Only v Fire/Heat' a -1 as that is probably the most common energy sfx and often appears environmentally (especially after superhero battles have started), and I'd make everything else proportional. A -1 means that it is only going to be useful about half the time and, even though fire is common, it doesn't come up every other energy attack. I think -2 for electricity is about right but - just to be clear - that is entirely my own suggestion, and you are quite right that the rules as written take a different view.

[Marcus]

All official writeups, and the official -1/2 limitation, are assinine. Damage Reduction against all energy defense is worth considerably more than a 50%premium over damage reduction versus electricity only. Therefore, restricting it to Electricity Only should be a limitation far greater than -1/2.

If "only vs electrictity" is -1/2, then "not vs electricity" should be what, -2? 60 points with a -1/2 limitation = 40 and 60 with a -2 = 20. Add those together, and we get defenses that work vs all energy attacks, which costs 60, so the two should sum up close, if not exactly equal.

You must spread some around...

[BNakagawa]

You know what works really well against most attacks?

+10 DCV only vs electrical attacks. (50 active, real cost dependent on the relative frequency of electrical attacks in your campaign world)

[Alibear]

Area of Effect?

[rreay]

If "only vs electrictity" is -1/2, then "not vs electricity" should be what, -2? 60 points with a -1/2 limitation = 40 and 60 with a -2 = 20. Add those together, and we get defenses that work vs all energy attacks, which costs 60, so the two should sum up close, if not exactly equal.

I agree that -1/2 is to low for Electricity Only. But I do not agree with the premise that that Only vs X and Not vs X should be mirror imaged prices for defenses.

[Sean Waters]

I agree that -1/2 is to low for Electricity Only. But I do not agree with the premise that that Only vs X and Not vs X should be mirror imaged prices for defenses.

Maybe not mirror exactly, but they should be close: 'only works against women' should be -1 and so should 'only works against men': each halves the cost of the power, together they make the 'full' power.

Hmm. Well they do for Mind Control. Less so for Energy Blast. Interesting that the same limitation can have quite radically different effects depending on which power it is applied to...

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree that -1/2 is to low for Electricity Only. But I do not agree with the premise that that Only vs X and Not vs X should be mirror imaged prices for defenses.

Why do you not agree? Tell me why buying +15 ED only vs Electricity and +15 ED, not vs Electricity together should cost something other than the 15 point cost to buy +15 ED.

[rreay]

Why do you not agree? Tell me why buying +15 ED only vs Electricity and +15 ED, not vs Electricity together should cost something other than the 15 point cost to buy +15 ED.

Because no one ever buys both...

I tried to explain this in my previous response and ended up deleting it. I can point out examples that I think don't work but I'm not sure I can explain it beyond the examples.

Using your example if a pair of teammates have that pair of electrical defenses the weak to electric character takes one maybe two hits before they swap targets. As a team they are basically as strong as if they we're unlimited. They might even be stronger, Not vs X guy can afford a bit more general defense which is useful against his opponent and Only vs X guy has a ton of extra defense against his dance partner.

Also, using your example lets cost it the other way. +15 ED not vs electricity (-1/4) 12 points sounds right to me but +15 ED only vs electricity (-4) 3 points seems way too cheap. But +15 ED not vs electricity is too cheap at +1/2.

Another example using Sean's Mind control only vs men or only vs women. In a general situation (assuming a mixed group of opponents) Mind Control only vs men isn't very limiting. Sure, you can't mind control that woman to press the big red button, but you can have the guy next to her do it, and sure you can't mind control that woman to not press the big red button, but you can mind control the guy next to her to grab or shoot her. To me neither is worth -1, because neither is limiting 50% of the time. You are limited to 50% of the potential targets in the world, but that doesn't mean you can only get your goal done only 50% of the time.

It gets worse if you mirror them on the same team. If you have a team (or a duplicating Mentalist) where one has only vs men, and the other with only vs women against a mixed group they are much more powerful than if they had only one unlimited mind control. They get more MC attacks and more flexibility because they both have more points to spend. Only in a situation where they are facing a single gender group are they "only" as powerful as a single unlimited Mind Control.

I think it basically comes down to, in general use, with a team, these kinds of limitations aren't as fully limiting as they could be. People maneuver to avoid the limiting effects, making it less limiting than it could be. Yes, some of this is the synergy that teams get, but to me it feels like it's too much.

[nexus]

That's why I favor the very limited Desolidification myself. It can potentially protect against any form of attack that falls under the applicable SFX, no matter what mechanics the attack is built with.

Unless it had Affects Desolid as an Advantage


You know what works really well against most attacks?

+10 DCV only vs electrical attacks. (50 active, real cost dependent on the relative frequency of electrical attacks in your campaign world)

What about Area of Effect or Damage Shields?

[Hugh Neilson]

Because no one ever buys both...

Sure they do. They don't buy them separately because it's easier to write them down as one unlimited version than two limited versions.


Using your example if a pair of teammates have that pair of electrical defenses the weak to electric character takes one maybe two hits before they swap targets. As a team they are basically as strong as if they we're unlimited. They might even be stronger, Not vs X guy can afford a bit more general defense which is useful against his opponent and Only vs X guy has a ton of extra defense against his dance partner.

You're assuming their opponents, Lightning Lass and Flame Fatale, are stupid enough to let them switch dance partners easily. Even if RubberMan is attacking Lightning Lass and Captain Conductor is attacking Flame Fatale, nothing prevents FF from ignoring CC so she can continue melting RM, while LL shocks CC back to the stone age.

The villains can switch targets just as quickly and efficiently as the heroes can. More effectively, in many cases, as the villains tend to start the fight, so they can set the terms of engagement. Try swapping partners when Lightning Lass attacks Captain Conductor at the waterfront and FF attacks Rubberman downtown.


Also, using your example lets cost it the other way. +15 ED not vs electricity (-1/4) 12 points sounds right to me but +15 ED only vs electricity (-4) 3 points seems way too cheap. But +15 ED not vs electricity is too cheap at +1/2.

No, it's too expensive. If electricity only comes up rarely, extra defenses against electricity should not be expensive, just as being undefended against it should not save a ton of points.

How many points can I have for 1 1/2 x STUN from electricity, by the way? I'm only saving 3 points to make my defense fail against electricity. If I start with 10 defenses and add 15 not vs electricity, a 12d6 attack will do 42 STUN on average. That's 17 if it's not electrical or 32 if it is. If I instead take 1 1/2 x STUN ves electricity for 10 points, unlimit my ED and buy another 7 points, I get 32 ED. A typical EB will do 10 STUN after my defenses, and an electric one does 31. I'm better off in either case.


Another example using Sean's Mind control only vs men or only vs women. In a general situation (assuming a mixed group of opponents) Mind Control only vs men isn't very limiting. Sure, you can't mind control that woman to press the big red button, but you can have the guy next to her do it, and sure you can't mind control that woman to not press the big red button, but you can mind control the guy next to her to grab or shoot her. To me neither is worth -1, because neither is limiting 50% of the time. You are limited to 50% of the potential targets in the world, but that doesn't mean you can only get your goal done only 50% of the time.

Assuming men/women is exactly 50/50, my power works against half of the available targets and I typically know when it will work (but sometimes not - a good costume, for example). If I instead took a -1 limitation because the power may or may not work, and I can't know whether it will work in advance, I get a 11- Activation - which works 62.5% of the time. "Fails half the time and I never know in advance" is a higher limitation.

There's some synergy, sure. But there's also synergy if my character has Darkness vs sight and hearing , and my teammate has Targeting Smell (a situation I've encountered in play). Should we make Darkness more expensive, or make Targetting Smell more expensive? If the team mix changes, does everyone revalue their powers for the new mix?

[Sean Waters]

A better example might be 'only during daytime' and 'only during nighttime'

Incidentally, although a limitation like 'only v women' might well be of minor inconvenience in a target rich environment, if you've got -1 for it then it is up to the GM to make it matter.

I've tended to think the scales set by the 'limited power' limitation were the gold standard, but the more I think about it, the less I agree with myself.

A power that works 50% of the time is probably far more limiting than half the cost of a power that works all the time. Take, for instance, the OAF limitation. No one really expects to have their access to powers reduced to half the time: you do not get your focus destroyed/stolen every other session BUT the point is that the loss of the focus - when it does happen every 10-12 sessions is catastrophic. You only get to die once*, and losing a major power source, or not having access to it, in a critical battle can cause that to happen.

A better scale would probably combine the frequency of loss of a power AND the seriousness of the consequences. Beyond me at this time of night and with this much beer in me, but I'll leave it to bubble in the back brain...




*Unless, you know, you have resurrection regeneration or something.

[prestidigitator]

Well, a love spell that only works against half the populace probably isn't very limited unless either: 1.) it is the WRONG half, or B.) you are bisexual. Take that! :cool:

(So should be being bisexual be a costly Perk or what?)

[Sean Waters]

Well quite :)

That's why a better example to dissect might be 'only works between 6am and 6pm' and 'only works between 6pm and 6am'.

They are mutually exclusive with no real overlap. Obviously a character can decide to only superhero during the day (or night, as appropriate) but the villains will soon cotton on.

You are getting only half the use from the power, in terms of time so, logically, that is worth -1, but I'm not sure it is as simple as that.

[nexus]

I'm going to disagree with Steve. I don't think a power that allows characters to become immune to a specific sfx would be unbalancing, not gameable or dramatic. Many others game survive with "Absolutes" in place and work just fine. And I don’t think saying something isn't "Absolute" because there is a way around it is exactly accurate. It's Absolute unless its weakness is exploited. Finding the weakness or coming up with tactics to exploit it can be very dramatic and a character that's Invulnerable to Fire or Magic or even broad categories like "energy" isn't necessarily unbeatable due to that alone.

Yes many times "absolutes" are beaten but not only by being out powered, many times a weakness is exploited, the power is negated by others means (nothing says you couldn't Dispel, Suppress or Drain whatever the "Invulnerability" power is). And the Power would allow Players and GMs to simulate truly invulnerable to "X" creatures from various settings and games without the price for the effect working out to be more than its utility as sometimes happens with other indirect methods.

The real problems come from pricing. Set the cost too low and it becomes to get stacked versions in high point games, set it too high and it will be effectively out of reach in some games. Personally, I've always like the 100 percent Damage Reduction method. The power is already broken into broad categories that could be further limited. There should be some guidelines about the risks of allowing a character to have more than one type that's not limited.

[BNakagawa]

What about Area of Effect or Damage Shields?

I don't care all that much.

AE and DS don't do many DC, assuming that active point limitations count for anything. You should be able to shield your character cheaply against AE and DS attacks trivially.

[nexus]

I don't care all that much.


That assumes NPCs are limited to the same Active points caps as PCs (Not a sure assumption, IME), some campaigns also have DCV caps. The Stun Lotto is concern as are advantages like Armor piercing or a power like Entangle (some proposed Taser) or even NND. AE: 1 Hex and Explosion are enough to eliminate the DCV approach and it's only +1/2 advantage. Normal Damage attacks aren't so bad, its the Stun Lotto and exotic effects that cause a problem.

You can DFC against it fairly easily but it would seem odd for a character to take a major defensive action against an attack which they are allegedly invulnerable too. Your immunity to electricity also reduced substantially if the character is attacked while stunned, surprised, entangled or other suffering from a reduced DCV and is oddly vulnerable to highly accurate electrical attacks or just being exposed to electricity in ways that DCV wouldn't apply against like deliberately touching a live wire.

My point isn't too pick apart your or anyone's ideaa but all the kludges have significant holes in them, IMO that either take handwaving to fill in or will let to some cognitive dissonance when the mechanical results don't match the sfx "I am immune to X". Even the buy enough Defense approach has problems in that you'd have to buy enough to cover ALL applications of the special effect: Adjustment powers, Flashes, Entangles, NNDs, etc. I'd like to see some sort of unified mechanic to make thing simple and straight forward

[Sean Waters]

I'm going to disagree with Steve. I don't think a power that allows characters to become immune to a specific sfx would be unbalancing, not gameable or dramatic. Many others game survive with "Absolutes" in place and work just fine. And I don’t think saying something isn't "Absolute" because there is a way around it is exactly accurate. It's Absolute unless its weakness is exploited. Finding the weakness or coming up with tactics to exploit it can be very dramatic and a character that's Invulnerable to Fire or Magic or even broad categories like "energy" isn't necessarily unbeatable due to that alone.

Yes many times "absolutes" are beaten but not only by being out powered, many times a weakness is exploited, the power is negated by others means (nothing says you couldn't Dispel, Suppress or Drain whatever the "Invulnerability" power is). And the Power would allow Players and GMs to simulate truly invulnerable to "X" creatures from various settings and games without the price for the effect working out to be more than its utility as sometimes happens with other indirect methods.

The real problems come from pricing. Set the cost too low and it becomes to get stacked versions in high point games, set it too high and it will be effectively out of reach in some games. Personally, I've always like the 100 percent Damage Reduction method. The power is already broken into broad categories that could be further limited. There should be some guidelines about the risks of allowing a character to have more than one type that's not limited.

To my mind, Hero is different from most other games because there are no proscriptive rules as to what you can build with your points. If you allow invulnerability in then it is the thin end of the wedge, and it won't be long before you see characters invulnerable to a wide range of effects: 'my concept is invulnerability'. Oh that's alright then.

Mind you, I do not think 'invulnerability' is unplayable, I just don't think it is necessary. I can not think of a single instance of genre 'invulnerability' that can not be explained with high defences. We know what defences cost, and we have no problem working with that. Costing invulnerability is difficult because you either have different costs for different game power levels or you make it a fixed cost power and it becomes a bargain and ubiquitous at higher levels.

I'm all for some sort of universal defence mechanism, which allows you to produce 'scaled invulnerability', but as an absolute, I just can't see the need and I've never seen it done in a way I'd want to adopt in a game.

[BNakagawa]

That assumes NPCs are limited to the same Active points caps as PCs (Not a sure assumption, IME), some campaigns also have DCV caps. The Stun Lotto is concern as are advantages like Armor piercing or a power like Entangle (some proposed Taser) or even NND. AE: 1 Hex and Explosion are enough to eliminate the DCV approach and it's only +1/2 advantage. Normal Damage attacks aren't so bad, its the Stun Lotto and exotic effects that cause a problem.

You can DFC against it fairly easily but it would seem odd for a character to take a major defensive action against an attack which they are allegedly invulnerable too. Your immunity to electricity also reduced substantially if the character is attacked while stunned, surprised, entangled or other suffering from a reduced DCV and is oddly vulnerable to highly accurate electrical attacks or just being exposed to electricity in ways that DCV wouldn't apply against like deliberately touching a live wire.

My point isn't too pick apart your or anyone's ideaa but all the kludges have significant holes in them, IMO that either take handwaving to fill in or will let to some cognitive dissonance when the mechanical results don't match the sfx "I am immune to X". Even the buy enough Defense approach has problems in that you'd have to buy enough to cover ALL applications of the special effect: Adjustment powers, Flashes, Entangles, NNDs, etc. I'd like to see some sort of unified mechanic to make thing simple and straight forward

Fine. Require that ALL electrical powers be built with the limitation -1/4 Does not work against anyone with LS: Immune to electrical powers.

Yeah, it's a dumb solution. But given that the game system is not one that dwells on absolutes, it's a dumb request. I mean, what power or construct should allow you to automatically ignore someone else's investment in an electrically based attack power, no matter how many points they spent? It runs entirely contrary to the core tenets of the system. Turn the equation on its head and you could be asking yourself - how do I build an attack that automatically hits and kills the target?

[nexus]

To my mind, Hero is different from most other games because there are no proscriptive rules as to what you can build with your points. If you allow invulnerability in then it is the thin end of the wedge, and it won't be long before you see characters invulnerable to a wide range of effects: 'my concept is invulnerability'. Oh that's alright then.


Well, I think if the concept isn't going to work in the game the GM is planning then they should just say so and work with the player to come up with something that will. The same as any other potentially unbalanced concepts like 'My character can completely stop time." There are games types were a completely invulnerable characters might not be a problem for various reasons.

I actually agree that high Defenses cover many aspects of "Invulnerability" but the problem comes from Hero's flexibility interestingly enough. A Special Effect can over many things. Just looking at Electricity it can apply to EB, RKA, Adjustment Powers, Entangles, Flashes, NNDs, etc that can and will bypass normal Defenses making building a character that's Invulnerable to Electricity much more pricey than its probably worth, more complicated and prone to create irritiation if the player forgets an aspect or runs into some unusual application of the sfx.

Even the 100 Damage Reduction application falls flat against Entangles and Adjustment powers.

I like the suggestions for a Unified Special Effect Defense mechanic that rendered the character flat out invulnerable to a DCs/APs per level. Again though, costing it could be tricky.




Yeah, it's a dumb solution. But given that the game system is not one that dwells on absolutes, it's a dumb request.


Not IMO, for a game the bills itself as a Universal tool kit and being "Invulnerable" to specific SFX isn't even a rare effect across genres. If you can "build any character you can imagine"... Invulnerable to X isn't that hard to imagine.



I mean, what power or construct should allow you to automatically ignore someone else's investment in an electrically based attack power, no matter how many points they spent?


Desoldification does unless you are vulnerable to it due to sfx or they've purchased a specific Advantage for their Power. That's the reason Desolidification is an Invulnerability kludge. One that falls down because legally you'd have to get all your offensive abilities as Affects Real World and an "Affects Desolidified" Advantage renders you no longer Invulnerable.



It runs entirely contrary to the core tenets of the system. Turn the equation on its head and you could be asking yourself - how do I build an attack that automatically hits and kills the target?

I think there should be an Advantage the forgoes a normal attack roll similar NND that has some circumstance that stops it cold. You can get AE: 1 Hex Accurate and another 1 point OCV levels to never miss the "Hex" as it stands (But there is the pesky DFC) Building an attack always kills its Target is relatively easy. Design it to do enough Body to kill anyone in the Campaign.

I'd prefer to be able to firmly answer questions like the OP posed with something solid and straightforward aside from "handwave it". It doesn't appear to be a desire to power game or abuse the system but to build a concept that would work in one of the genres Hero is supposed to emulate well. Sometimes handwaving is required or the best path but for something that comes up as often as this question does, I don't it should be the case here. It's not a rare or fringe effect.

[prestidigitator]

Don't forget limited Healing regeneration with the Resurrection advantage! If electricity might have some temporary affect on you but will never actually do you lasting damage, that can to some degree be thought of as "invulnerability" to it.

[BNakagawa]

Not IMO, for a game the bills itself as a Universal tool kit and being "Invulnerable" to specific SFX isn't even a rare effect across genres. If you can "build any character you can imagine"... Invulnerable to X isn't that hard to imagine.


Universal means all encompassing.

So you can either have Invulnerable to X
Or you can have an X power that hurts everything

The same game system cannot support both. By that definition, no game system is ever universal.

[Egyptoid]

Desolid, Always On, Inherent; Can only be affected by Non-Electrical Attacks.

[bigbywolfe]

Well said Nexus. I completely agree.

[Sean Waters]

......................

I actually agree that high Defenses cover many aspects of "Invulnerability" but the problem comes from Hero's flexibility interestingly enough. A Special Effect can over many things. Just looking at Electricity it can apply to EB, RKA, Adjustment Powers, Entangles, Flashes, NNDs, etc that can and will bypass normal Defenses making building a character that's Invulnerable to Electricity much more pricey than its probably worth, more complicated and prone to create irritiation if the player forgets an aspect or runs into some unusual application of the sfx.

Even the 100 Damage Reduction application falls flat against Entangles and Adjustment powers.

I like the suggestions for a Unified Special Effect Defense mechanic that rendered the character flat out invulnerable to a DCs/APs per level. Again though, costing it could be tricky.

.....................

...could be, but:

Insulator
Suppress 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), all electrical powers simultaneously (+2), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (64 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

If you have electrical powers of your own, add 'personal immunity'

This acts as a suppression field immediately around you so it weakens all electrical powers, including entangles, adjustment powers, flashes, NNDs and even opponent's defences by 10 character points.

That may not sound like much for the cost (and arguably you could get some limitation on this as electricity is not a very common sfx), but 10 points matters: it is 1d6 of an NND, 2d6 from an EB, or 1 Body and 1 DEF on an entangle. It means you punch through 10 points less of enemy force field. Opponents with electric TK are wealer against you - it works on everything.

Although it is far from 'invulnerability' it does mean electricity has far less effect on you than on most others - especially bearing in mind that it is usually the last points spend that really make the difference, and that applies, in a current rules legal way, to everything electrical.

[bigbywolfe]

You need to add Persistent or they become more vulnerable to Electricity while unconscious, Continuous (or else you have to actively “use” the suppress), and possibly Uncontrolled.

Plus, wouldn’t you technically be suppressing the power of anyone within HtH range, not the powers that come into your hex?

[Sean Waters]

You need to add Persistent or they become more vulnerable to Electricity while unconscious, Continuous (or else you have to actively “use” the suppress), and possibly Uncontrolled.

Plus, wouldn’t you technically be suppressing the power of anyone within HtH range, not the powers that come into your hex?

Suppresses built as fields affect any power that enters (or is in) the area they cover, and that's in the book, I believe. You could certainly add persistent if the power worked while you are unconscious, but you do not need continuous as the power is already constant (continuous on suppress allows you to keep adding more effect) or uncontrolled as you don't need it when you are dead and you'll never be out of range of it :)

[bigbywolfe]

doh'! I always forget how different Suppress is from Drain. Sorry. Continuous is completely not needed. I’ll stick with Persistent though. Someone who take damage from something when unconscious isn’t immune to it, IMO.

[nexus]

By that definition, no game system is ever universal.

Good thing that's not the definition I'm using. IMO, Universal as applied to game system to mean "This game system can model any genre or setting the player wishes." Specially, it has no setting or default genre attached. A Universal game system is designed to able to cover all genres, settings and allow for whatever character types would work in those genres and settings.

A theoretical "Invulnerable to X" type power isn't all encompassing. It does not mean the character can't be hurt by anything at all. It only encompasses all applications of X, say electricity. That Hero can't currently model a pretty simple concept without fairly extensive handwaving and kludges, IMO, takes away from the Universal aspect of the game. That other systems that advertise themselves as universal can handle this type of "invulnerability" exists seems to indicate that it's not an impossible or unrealistic goal.

Hero System already officially allows options as broken and wonky as "The Speed Zone" if the GM wants to use them. I don't think SFX Defense, 100 Percent DR or other options for limited Invulnerability are going to shatter it, particularly as an option.

Or tone down the "You can build anything, etc etc" boiler plate in its advertising and address what the system cannot do early on. Either way I think this should be addressed. It's got to among the most common complaints/questions I've seen on these boards and other places about Hero System.



So you can either have Invulnerable to X
Or you can have an X power that hurts everything
l.

Invulnerable to X is more limited than can hurt anything. If the power that can hurt anything isn't X then it doesn't interact with invulnerability. Mainly, you have to decide what happens when those effects bump into each other. Exalted, for example, decided that the defense wins in those instances. IME, that's what most games do since an Invulnerability to X effect IS more limited than this attack can hurt anything.

[BNakagawa]

A universal system can allow for an immovable object or an irresistible force, neither but not both.

If I have to pick, I pick neither. If I have to pick one of the first two, I pick the irresistible force. It's action-oriented. You gotta get off your butt and do something to make irresistible force useful. Invulnerability requires nothing of you but getting hit with the right flavor of damage.

The notion of being immune to X is problematic, because once you allow it, all it takes is a modifier to make it applicable to any one S/FX which allows you to be immune to whatever your opponent is throwing. (or put it in a VPP)

Also, too many games feature a specific S/FX which dominates the scene. I've played in games where magic was almost ubiquitous. Allowing magic resistance or invulnerability would break such a game. Ditto for psionic campaigns, martial arts campaigns, etc. etc.

[IndianaJoe3]

A universal system can allow for an immovable object or an irresistible force, neither but not both.

Well, it could allow for both, but not in the same campaign at the same time.

[nexus]

A universal system can allow for an immovable object or an irresistible force, neither but not both.


No, you just have to decide what happens when they meet as far as game mechanics go. Many games already do this. Besides being immune to X is only "immovable" in regards to X. Otherwise it has no interaction at all to A, B, C, D, Q, Y, etc.



The notion of being immune to X is problematic, because once you allow it, all it takes is a modifier to make it applicable to any one S/FX which allows you to be immune to whatever your opponent is throwing. (or put it in a VPP)


What makes you assume there would be modifier to switch what SFX you are immune too? There isn't one to switch other defensive powers from ED to PD at will, or the senses Flash Defense protects. Also there are already powers that are GM's permission to be put in VPP or any power frameworks. So no problem there. There is a modifier for changing the special effect of an attack into anything.



Also, too many games feature a specific S/FX which dominates the scene. I've played in games where magic was almost ubiquitous. Allowing magic resistance or invulnerability would break such a game. Ditto for psionic campaigns, martial arts campaigns, etc. etc.

The don't use allow the ability to be purchased in those settings or restrict them in some fashion. There are numerous ways too. For example, you might be immune to on sort of magic, but not another sort in a fantasy game.

Besides, many things are perfectly balanced in one setting but unbalanced in another. Fully fledged flight, Desoldification or long distance Energy Blasts would generally be unbalanced in a MA game UNLESS it was something like Dragonball Z...which is arguably more of a Supers game with MA flavor.

Just because some thing is in the corebook or a supplement doesn't mean it's appropriate (at least in raw form) in every single game any more than you have to use every tool in the kit for every single project you perform with it. If a costumer is just flat out opposed to the notion they don't have to use it at all. Steve Long isn't going to come to your game and make you.

I'd simply like to see the issue of invulnerability, mainly special effect based Invulnerability addressed more elegantly in Hero System since it is something that comes up so frequently particularly among new players and GM (and is often used by Hero's detractors as a failing or even evidence that Hero's claim of universality are lies)

[nexus]

Here's an odd early morning thought that may or may not be viable. How about Advantage for DR that extends it's effect beyond Body/Stun Damage to other affects like Adjustment powers that reduce other characteristics, Flash duration, maybe even Entangle results?

[prestidigitator]

I think that might work for the Adjustment Powers, maybe Flashes, and other damaging (cumulative) type effects, but I wouldn't want it for Entangles, which are a whole different beast.

[Vulcan]

I think that might work for the Adjustment Powers, maybe Flashes, and other damaging (cumulative) type effects, but I wouldn't want it for Entangles, which are a whole different beast.

And that's where the trouble lies, because for certain Entangle SFX (the taser vs. Lightning Lass is the big one) it makes NO SENSE for the entangle to work against someone immune to that SFX.

[nexus]

I think that might work for the Adjustment Powers, maybe Flashes, and other damaging (cumulative) type effects, but I wouldn't want it for Entangles, which are a whole different beast.

Yeah, thinking about I agree. Entangle is a tricky beast too because in some cases it wouldn't makes sense that being "Invulnerable" would effect one and in others it would. A Limitation or greater Advantage maybe?


And that's where the trouble lies, because for certain Entangle SFX (the taser vs. Lightning Lass is the big one) it makes NO SENSE for the entangle to work against someone immune to that SFX.

Yep, Exactly. Or Capt Arctic might be Invulnerable to Cold but it wouldn't necessarily render him unable to be frozen inside a block of ice but an Entangle defined as "numbing paralyzing cold" shouldn't affect

[JmOz]

Yeah, thinking about I agree. Entangle is a tricky beast too because in some cases it wouldn't makes sense that being "Invulnerable" would effect one and in others it would. A Limitation or greater Advantage maybe?



Exactly but hopefully without side tracking the thread I'll say I've never been fond of the Entangle build for tasers but there are other examples of this too. Capt Artic might be Invulnerable to Cold but it wouldn't necessarily render him unable to be frozen inside a block of ice.

Maybe somekind of lim on the entangles instead...

[prestidigitator]

Actually I was thinking of the mechanics of reducing Entangle effects vs. the others with a Damage Reduction type construct. An Entangle that is too weak basically has no effect, as opposed to the other powers mentioned which have some small cumulative effect after being reduced. Damage Reduction is really a, "Still affects the character but will take much longer to have a significant effect." Reducing the Body and/or Defence of an Entangle would be more like increasing your Defences (ability to completely shrug off the attack) IMO. It just doesn't fit with DR.

[Sean Waters]

There is nothing wrong with a universe that contains both an unstoppable force and an immoveable object so long as they never meet. :sneaky:

In my opinion every absolute is simply hyperbole.

[DocMan]

I think there is room in the game for an invulnerability vs SFX power, but only vs one SFX.

Of course, in our Protectors campaign, we did have an NPC who was invulnerable to everything. He pegged the scale in mutant power and meta power levels. Our GM claimed that he actually had a character sheet for the guy that worked out all of his powers, but I never saw it. The thing is, aside from "invulnerable to everything", he had no powers. He was sick of being on the run from everyone who wanted to study him and replicate his powers. So we promised to get him a jammer to keep him from being tracked down by his power signature, and hired him on as our mechanic and handyman at our base.

Doc

[prestidigitator]

Of course, in our Protectors campaign, we did have an NPC who was invulnerable to everything. He pegged the scale in mutant power and meta power levels. Our GM claimed that he actually had a character sheet for the guy that worked out all of his powers, but I never saw it. The thing is, aside from "invulnerable to everything", he had no powers. He was sick of being on the run from everyone who wanted to study him and replicate his powers. So we promised to get him a jammer to keep him from being tracked down by his power signature, and hired him on as our mechanic and handyman at our base.
I had a PC kind of like that back in 4th edition. Natural Armor, Damage Reduction, Persistant Aid, and a few bits of other Hardened defences here and there made him pretty invulnerable. I believe it was something like 84 Body he had to take in one hit before he'd actually be wounded (even then he'd heal it back the next Phase).

But he was a total utter pansy. Not only because he had no other powers, but because all his defences worked against Body only. He even took extra Stun from many things. So he was the guy they'd throw in the gears of the doomsday device to break it. When he woke up in screaming pain a week later, he'd be back to his normal annoying little self. Heh. Fun here and there, but obviously not a serious member of the team.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think there is room in the game for an invulnerability vs SFX power, but only vs one SFX.

Which SFX?

Vs. Mental Illusions? Vs Mental Powers?

Vs. Fire? Vs Heat? Vs temperature extremes? vs Energy?

Vs. Pointed Sticks? Vs. Piercing? Vs. Piercing and Slashing? Vs. All Physical Damage?

I'd rather see the system define the scope as broadly as possible and leave it to me, the GM, to decide how appropriate it is to my campaign, and thus to what extent I will allow it.

If it costs, say, 120 points to be immune to all physical damage and another 120 for all energy damage, is that really a lot more powerful than spending 240 points on defenses? 70 PD, 30 resistant, 70 ED, 30 resistant, 30 Power Defense, 20 Sight Flash Defense, 20 Mental Defense seems pretty overpowered to me, and Invulnerable Man is still affected by Flash, Adjustment and Mental powers.

[bigbywolfe]

Looks at Hugh's post..."What he said"

[prestidigitator]

What if we based it on Desolidification with applicable Modifiers, plus a Naked Affects Physical World Advantage that applies to attack powers at a game's AP limit. That's not quite right because you could only actually apply Affects Physical World to a power that is 1/3 the game's AP limit, but it might give us a decent idea of where to start in terms of price (and tends to balance the cheesy application of that Naked Advantage as well).

For a game with a 60 AP limit on attacks:

Desolidification; Reduced End: 0 End (+1/2); Persistant (+1/2) [ 80 Active ]; Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2); Only to Protect Against Limited Type of Attack (-1) [ 32 Real ]

Naked Affects Physical World (+2) on 60 AP attack powers; 0 End (+1/2) [ 180 Active, 180 Real]

That's a total Real Cost of 212 points. Seems a little steep. Certainly it shouldn't cost more than that for a reasonably limited set of SFX. Hmm.

[Egyptoid]

Desolid, Always On, Inherent; Can be affected by Non-Electrical Attacks.

no responses, hmmm . . . is it:

A) lots of people have me on ignore. can't blame'em.

B) this isnt a legal build in people's opinion.

C) its so genius that others are stunned into silence.

[prestidigitator]

no responses, hmmm . . . is it:

A) lots of people have me on ignore. can't blame'em.

B) this isnt a legal build in people's opinion.

C) its so genius that others are stunned into silence.

It's pretty much my take too, but I can see the balance issues that can be brought up, especially because the standard rules state you have to apply Affects Physical World on all your attack powers. So that's why I'm wondering if some kind of Naked application of that Advantage might help to alleviate some people's aversion to this approach.

[rreay]

What if we based it on Desolidification with applicable Modifiers, plus a Naked Affects Physical World Advantage that applies to attack powers at a game's AP limit.


I'm a big fan of the Fantasy Hero Absolute Effect rules. The cost of invulnerability is dependent on the DCs you expect to be facing. This is similar in that the cost is dependent on the campaign DC limits with is related to the DCs you expect to be facing.

My biggest problem with pricing kind of invulnerability is that within some kind of range it's cost should be dependent on the points available for character creation. A fixed cost invulnerability that is expensive and rare at heroic levels (heavily limited spell perhaps) becomes a keeping up with the joneses power at galactic levels. A variable priced invulnerability, following DC or point limits, becomes a heavily limited spell at heroic and a schtick at galactic levels.

-rr

[rreay]

Even within electrical effects there has to be GM interpretation becasue there are powers that don't logically work against invulnerable to electricity guy.

I would write up both Scrambling the Sense Neurons and a Bright Loud Lightning bolt as a Flash with Electrical FX. But I wouldn't let invuln guy be immune the the Flash part of a lightning bolt.

[DocMan]

Which SFX?

Vs. Mental Illusions? Vs Mental Powers?

Vs. Fire? Vs Heat? Vs temperature extremes? vs Energy?

Vs. Pointed Sticks? Vs. Piercing? Vs. Piercing and Slashing? Vs. All Physical Damage?

I meant one SFX per character. Not one SFX per game system.

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

I meant one SFX per character. Not one SFX per game system.

So did I. How broad can that "one SFX" be?

[DocMan]

So did I. How broad can that "one SFX" be?

That is a GM call, and should be based on the special effects of the character. It makes no sense for the Human Torch to take damage from fire or heat effects, or for living lightning to take damage from electrical attacks. The game rules shouldn't absolve the player from having to justify why his character has a given power.

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

That is a GM call, and should be based on the special effects of the character. It makes no sense for the Human Torch to take damage from fire or heat effects, or for living lightning to take damage from electrical attacks. The game rules shouldn't absolve the player from having to justify why his character has a given power.

In that case, we need variant prices, since it would be unfair to be immune to all physical damage, and a second to be immune to laser beams, for the same price (presuming that they are not equally common, which would be the case in most games).

Given we need to price out the various levels of frequency of the SFX, why not include prices for all such frequencies and let the gamers decide how these tools may be used in their games?

[prestidigitator]

I'm a big fan of the Fantasy Hero Absolute Effect rules. The cost of invulnerability is dependent on the DCs you expect to be facing. This is similar in that the cost is dependent on the campaign DC limits with is related to the DCs you expect to be facing.

My biggest problem with pricing kind of invulnerability is that within some kind of range it's cost should be dependent on the points available for character creation. A fixed cost invulnerability that is expensive and rare at heroic levels (heavily limited spell perhaps) becomes a keeping up with the joneses power at galactic levels. A variable priced invulnerability, following DC or point limits, becomes a heavily limited spell at heroic and a schtick at galactic levels.

So going back the other way, should Desolidification (which does provide some absolute invulnerability in a sense) be priced based on a game's DC/AP limits, or is it okay like it is? I tend to think that it is okay like it is because IMX not only do the size of the powers increase in a high-level game, but the breadth of powers does as well, so there is more likely to be a character with a power that can deal with a particular problem. In a high-powered enough game, there's bound to be someone who can dispel an effect, bypass a particular kind of defence, use at least a small VPP to produce a versatile solution, use a power with Variable Special Effects to find and utilize a target's weakness, etc.

[BNakagawa]

That is a GM call, and should be based on the special effects of the character. It makes no sense for the Human Torch to take damage from fire or heat effects, or for living lightning to take damage from electrical attacks. The game rules shouldn't absolve the player from having to justify why his character has a given power.

Doc

I don't know why people think this. The Human Torch has a temperature, which is obvious because he has a color. (typically red) If he is hit with something of even higher temperature, there is no reason why you shouldn't expect him to be burned, possibly even killed by it.

Just because you're made of something doesn't mean you're immune to it.

A dust devil is not immune to a tornado.

[Sean Waters]

What is it you are 'immune' to if you are immune to electricity? Electricity can burn you, so are you immune to heat too? Electricity can interfere with your nervous system, so if you have a fibre optic nervous system instead, you're immune? Well, you might be to some effects but even then it is probably a matter of degree - use enough electricity and it can arc through almost anything.

The single biggest problem with modeling 'immunity' in the Hero system is the killing attack mechanic. Realistically if you have 50 ED, you are 'invulnerable' to energy attacks in a broad range of games, but not if you use the KA mechanic, which can easily exceed that defence total with alarming regularity.

Buy decent energy defence (possibly limited to electricity only), some power defence (same limitation) and LS: Electricity to cover NND attacks and you are golden. A GM would have to be a total dork to deliberately build an electricity attack that circumvented Conductor's electricity defences.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't know why people think this. The Human Torch has a temperature, which is obvious because he has a color. (typically red) If he is hit with something of even higher temperature, there is no reason why you shouldn't expect him to be burned, possibly even killed by it.

In fact, in the old FF annual that brought back the Golden Age Torch, The FF Torch WAS burned because the older, more experienced Torch could burn hot enough to do so.

[nexus]

Buy decent energy defense (possibly limited to electricity only), some power defense (same limitation) and LS: Electricity to cover NND attacks and you are golden. A GM would have to be a total dork to deliberately build an electricity attack that circumvented Conductor's electricity defenses.

And some Flash Defense (selectively interfering with sensory nerves), and some Mental Defense (Electrically overriding control of the nerves) and I guess some extra Str (or Con?) for those Tasers built as Entangles. Saying "those effects don't make sense" doesn't really negate issue. It varies from campaign to campaign and I've seen those and similar effects in various source material. Aside from KA mechanic (which I agree is major stumbling block to Invulnerability or even just the classic Bullet Bouncing Brick) is that variety of effects in Hero and how they can be built so covering all your bases can be take up a sizable chunk of points for results that might be worth the points in play.

[Sean Waters]

And some Flash Defense (selectively interfering with sensory nerves), and some Mental Defense (Electrically overriding control of the nerves) and I guess some extra Str (or Con?) for those Tasers built as Entangles. Saying "those effects don't make sense" doesn't really negate issue. It varies from campaign to campaign and I've seen those and similar effects in various source material. Aside from KA mechanic (which I agree is major stumbling block to Invulnerability or even just the classic Bullet Bouncing Brick) is that variety of effects in Hero and how they can be built so covering all your bases can be take up a sizable chunk of points for results that might be worth the points in play.

There are indeed a plethora of interesting ways you can build effects, but you also have to assume that the GM is not the enemy. If he is you are doomed anyway.

I personally wouldn't build a taser with 'entangle' because I don't think the mechanic is a good fit, but if I did, I'd include a limitation that it was ineffective against targets with a certain amount of resistant ED. I wouldn't build electricity overriding nerves as a mind control unless I added 'based on CON' and Defence = ED. The flash should again take a 'not v high rED' limitation.

If I was GMing a game and I'd slipped and ElectoLass was hit with something I'd built that she was defenceless against and had the 'electricity' sfx, I'd fluff it and re-write the attack later. I'd obviously meant to do it differently and she shouldn't suffer as a result.

The only reason you 'need' an immunity power is a Dork GM, but there is absolutely no defence against a Dork GM. You introduce Immunity to Electricity as a 30 point power and DGM will hit you with 'antielectricity' - like electricity but you're not immune to it.

Well I say no defence - you can always vote with your feet.

[JmOz]

<clip>

...is that variety of effects in Hero and how they can be built so covering all your bases can be take up a sizable chunk of points for results that might be worth the points in play.

Which is why I like the idea of the universal defence power I mentioned earlier...

[prestidigitator]

If we really want to start talking about how electricity interacts with nerves and flesh and stuff like that, maybe we're in a game where "immunity" isn't appropriate. But a lot of the time we're talking comic book/metaphysical world mechanics, not scientific ones. A being "made of electricity" is immune to electricity because that is the particular mythology we are basing our game world on. It's that simple.

So let's go back to our usual approach of dropping whether a construct is "realistic" or "physically accurate" and instead concentrate of the "how to build" given the assumption that SOMEONE actually WANTS this in their game. Otherwise we wouldn't even have this thread, eh?

[nexus]

There are indeed a plethora of interesting ways you can build effects, but you also have to assume that the GM is not the enemy. If he is you are doomed anyway.


I'm not assuming the "GM is the enemy". I simply think that methods requires and uncomfortable level of handwavium, specfically assuming the charcter has an infinite (or exceptionally large) amount of defense they don't have because there isn't a simple means to represent "immunity" in the game. It seems a little counter to Hero's "You get what you pay for (with small excepions" style. It's also a bit non intuitive particularly to newbies which is way this question keeps coming up.

I mean what happens if someone else get marginally less than "magical" immunity amount of defense or just forgets to mention they want to be "Immune" Do they get free Power, Mental, Flash, etc defense too?



The only reason you 'need' an immunity power is a Dork GM, but there is absolutely no defence against a Dork GM.


Or a GM with different mode of play who thinks blanket immunity should 1 Have a default pricing scheme and 2. Not require allot of handwaving and exception based ruling.

A Power for it will not be perfect. There will always been fringe cases that will require GM interpretation such as the like Immunity to Ice man and being frozen in a block of ice but I think it would be more consistent that many of the kludges you have to use now.

Many people complain that Immunity could be abused (and it can) but seem unwilling to just say no abusive builds with it yet perfectly willing to rule away the mechanical holes and issues with the kludges.



You introduce Immunity to Electricity as a 30 point power and DGM will hit you with 'antielectricity' - like electricity but you're not immune to it.


Well, theoretically you can do that already. IIRC, there's Advantage in the Ultimate Energy Blaster that allows a power to act a more than one SFX either the best or worst one for the target. But yes, it would be antgonistic to that old the time but that doesn't mean anyone the feel the ability needs more structure thinks that way or is going to be jackass otherwise.


Which is why I like the idea of the universal defence power I mentioned earlier...

Yep, I've been supporting the idea of a sfx broad "Immunity" power.

[nexus]

If we really want to start talking about how electricity interacts with nerves and flesh and stuff like that, maybe we're in a game where "immunity" isn't appropriate. But a lot of the time we're talking comic book/metaphysical world mechanics, not scientific ones. A being "made of electricity" is immune to electricity because that is the particular mythology we are basing our game world on. It's that simple.

So let's go back to our usual approach of dropping whether a construct is "realistic" or "physically accurate" and instead concentrate of the "how to build" given the assumption that SOMEONE actually WANTS this in their game. Otherwise we wouldn't even have this thread, eh?

I agree with this as well. What's "realistic" in one setting has no bearing on what the game should or should not try to model.

[BNakagawa]

If you invoke what is and is not appropriate to the setting then I offer this:

The only reason you would really need a mechanism for immunity to X is if a player character wanted it.

If an NPC or villain had it, the GM wouldn't need to stat it out. GM fiat - done.

So, if a PC wants immunity to X, then no NPC or villain in the entirety of the multiverse can ever affect that PC with X. For a fixed amount of points. That restricts the GM, as no future NPC or villain can ever exceed the PC in X. The best any NPC or villain (or other PC) can ever manage is to equal that PC in X.

This argument is less valid if said PC is a multiverse-scale god.

[Sean Waters]

I'm not assuming the "GM is the enemy". I simply think that methods requires and uncomfortable level of handwavium, specfically assuming the charcter has an infinite (or exceptionally large) amount of defense they don't have because there isn't a simple means to represent "immunity" in the game. It seems a little counter to Hero's "You get what you pay for (with small excepions" style. It's also a bit non intuitive particularly to newbies which is way this question keeps coming up.

I mean what happens if someone else get marginally less than "magical" immunity amount of defense or just forgets to mention they want to be "Immune" Do they get free Power, Mental, Flash, etc defense too?



Or a GM with different mode of play who thinks blanket immunity should 1 Have a default pricing scheme and 2. Not require allot of handwaving and exception based ruling.

A Power for it will not be perfect. There will always been fringe cases that will require GM interpretation such as the like Immunity to Ice man and being frozen in a block of ice but I think it would be more consistent that many of the kludges you have to use now.

Many people complain that Immunity could be abused (and it can) but seem unwilling to just say no abusive builds with it yet perfectly willing to rule away the mechanical holes and issues with the kludges.





Well first off every 'fix' for immunity I've seen involves a lot of handwavium, from modified desolid (and it's still handwavium even if it is in the rule book) to costing a specific 'immunity' power. The basis of my thesis is that we don't need it.

1. You don't need an unfeasably large amount of defence: +30 ED (10 resistant) and 15 PowDEF (electricity only -2) should do it for most purposes for 17 points, assuming you already have campaign appropriate defences for everything else.

2. I'm advocating intelligent design. Just because you can build an attack with AVLD (Touch Flash) and Penetrating and CALL it an electric attack (it numbs the nerves) doesn't mean that's a good way to build the attack. Actually I've never thought of a sensible use for penetrating. If the attack uses electricity then it is not going to get through high energy defences. It is not a special sort of electricity, don't build an electricity attack as if it is.

That's not handwaving anything, it is just setting ground rules. We often seem utterly terrified of doing anything that is going to limit our creativity but in my experience a few guidelines not only make a campaign more coherent but that coherency makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

I don't much care about 'immunity' or anything else being abused - that is what GMs are for (not the Dork kind), but I doubt costing it will every be anything but an excercise in futility except for a particular point total of game.

Can you actually think of any examples of 'invulnerability' or 'immunity' in the source material? I do recall Rogue of the X-Men claiming that she was invulnerable just before Viper nearly burned a hole right through her with a blaster pistol.

[Sean Waters]

I gave a PC invulnerability once. He was given a sort of tabard made from the skin of a dead god and nothing that hit it hurt him (basically on 11- he ignored the hit). He was already a pretty tough brick and nothing much hurt him anyway. It was fine. I completely handwaved it as I was handing out goodies to everyone, and it worked fine because I knew two things.

I knew how my universe worked.

I knew that something had killed that god, and skinned it :sneaky:


Ultimately poionts are a balancing mechanism but not the only or necessarily the best one. If you want immunity in your game, go for it. I just don;t believe the system needs it.

[nexus]

Well first off every 'fix' for immunity I've seen involves a lot of handwavium, from modified desolid (and it's still handwavium even if it is in the rule book) to costing a specific 'immunity' power. The basis of my thesis is that we don't need it.


I know. That's the problem.



1. You don't need an unfeasably large amount of defence: +30 ED (10 resistant) and 15 PowDEF (electricity only -2) should do it for most purposes for 17 points, assuming you already have campaign appropriate defences for everything else.


This is strictly campaign and character design dependent. I don't know where you're getting your figure from but +30 Def and only 10 resistant wouldn't make you anything near "Invulnerable" to a special effect. And I don't think Electricity only is -2 Limitation, the equivalent of No Conscious Control. This has been my experience, different from yours. It doesn't make one of us wrong.



2. I'm advocating intelligent design. Just because you can build an attack with AVLD (Touch Flash) and Penetrating and CALL it an electric attack (it numbs the nerves) doesn't mean that's a good way to build the attack.


It doesn't mean it's a bad way either. That's an opinion. One man's "intelligent design" is another person's faulty build. Hero doesn't have "official" builds. Even Steve Long doesn't claim his write up are the one true way and I don't agree with many of them. There's a reason most of these "How to Build" threads are more than three posts long. Everyone has opinions on the best way to do things.



That's not handwaving anything, it is just setting ground rules.


It's a completely arbitrary decision that based on a particular GM's style and mood with nothing really codified about it. Seems like handwavium to me. Handwavium isn't a bad thing by definition but IMO something more solid work at least so the question about how to do it could be answered with more than "Make stuff up"



We often seem utterly terrified of doing anything that is going to limit our creativity but in my experience a few guidelines not only make a campaign more coherent but that coherency makes the whole experience more enjoyable.


That's what I and some others are suggesting. A codified power that describes in mechanical terms being "Invulnerable" to a specific special effect to give it some coherence so one character isn't using the "Desolid" Kludge, another using the DR Kludge or are arbitrary of Defense is selected that to mean you are not invulnerable to everything of that special effect. What if a player gets the magic number in PD or ED with no limitation? Would that mean they're totally immune to anything with Physical or Energy sfx? The character that got it cheaper thanks to a Limitation is after all

I don't much care about 'immunity' or anything else being abused - that is what GMs are for (not the Dork kind), but I doubt costing it will every be anything but an exercise in futility except for a particular point total of game. How doe



Can you actually think of any examples of 'invulnerability' or 'immunity' in the source material?

Which source material? The entire library of cinematic fiction and literature? Hero System is more than comic books at least in its current incarnation. IN some horror stories, for example Vampire ARE totally invulnerable to anything but their banes as are Lycanthropes, some seem to be immaterial to the attack completely or at best the force of them might knock them over if powerful enough but doesn't hurt them in slightest.

There have been some character in comics that were Invulnerable to something or other and either hurt by something else or had their power circumvented or nullified in some fashion not just brute forced through Dragonball Z. Finding the Macguffin to break the mega villain's invulnerability defense is a plot so common its almost cliche.

Because one person doesn't think it's feasible or would never use it, doesn't mean others don't want it or use it. Too many game systems both superheroic and others have mechanic for it, too many ask about it. As evidence I offer this and every others thread that asks "How do I do Invulnerability?"

Most of the complaints against it seem to boil down too. "I wouldn't use it because I don't like the idea of an absolute (though Hero has them already) or Invulnerability (Though Hero has them in sense) so no one can. " You don't (and, IMO shouldn't) use everything in the books in every game but I think having a defined mechanic for this sort of thing is a reasonable took to put in the box

And I have mentioned that costing it could be tricky but I don't feel that should be deterrent to even trying.

[nexus]

Ultimately points are a balancing mechanism but not the only or necessarily the best one. If you want immunity in your game, go for it. I just don;t believe the system needs it.

Obviously I and others disagree but even if it is included in the system. You don't have to use it. It just makes things simpler for those of us that do. (Gah, this is starting to feel like the Comeliness debate!) I've chucked out allot of the rules for mental powers that felt off for me. Doing that doesn't make me a Power gamer or "Dork" of a GM. Having some rules for something doesn't mean you can't handwave it it means you have an option besides that if you want or need one. In one campaign I regularly hand out powers to the PC without even bothering to cost them out let alone charge for them but that doesn't mean I don't ever need the character generation or power creation rules.

Otherwise I'd be playing something like Capes or Wushu.

And I'm done. This is just going in circles at this point.

[JmOz]

Obviously I and others disagree but even if it is included in the system. You don't have to use it. It just makes things simpler for those of us that do. (Gah, this is starting to feel like the Comeliness debate!) I've chucked out allot of the rules for mental powers that felt off for me. Doing that doesn't make me a Power gamer or "Dork" of a GM. Having some rules for something doesn't mean you can't handwave it it means you have an option besides that if you want or need one. In one campaign I regularly hand out powers to the PC without even bothering to cost them out let alone charge for them but that doesn't mean I don't ever need the character generation or power creation rules.

Otherwise I'd be playing something like Capes or Wushu.

And I'm done. This is just going in circles at this point.


One thing you mention in passing I hope becomes more official is the idea that somethings are different settings, like mental powers, the whole class of mind thing for instance works for some games and not for others, things like that I think should be clearly marked as "Here are a few options for you to consider doing"

[Sean Waters]

We are going round in circles, but let me explain why I chose +30 ED (10 resistant). This assumes you have normal defences as well, so in a 12d6 campaign, I'd expect around 24 ED/12 resistant, so the additional specialist defences take you to 54 ED/22 resistant against electricity - which is pretty close to immunity if you are expecting 12d6 attacks.

As to the -2 for only v electricity, that is a judgement call but one based on the fact that there are a lot of energy types and electricity is certainly not the most common.

Electricity in most games comes up far less than half the energy attacks, so it has to be a 'better' limitation than -1.

There is a law of diminishing returns on limitations too: -1 on a 60 point power saves you 30 points, bump that to -2 and you only save an additional 10 points.

If electricity only more than halves the utility, you only have two options available: -1 1/2 and -2.

Anyway, that's what passes for logic in this neck of the woods.

[nexus]

Desolidification could be a decent kludge with a just few nudges such as taking Limitations like Does not Protect from Damage or only protects from one SFX negates the requirement to get Affects Real World on Attacks or other powers. Most forms would have "Cannot pass through Solid Matter". 0 Endurance, Persist possible Inherent could be used. The issue of conductivity (does the attack pass through the target or not) would be a matter of sfx. When I get the chance I'll run the numbers.

[mattingly]

The total cheese way to do it:

EB 1d6 (vs. ED: electrical), Variable Special Effects (any electrical effect, +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4)

[Sean Waters]

The total cheese way to do it:

EB 1d6 (vs. ED: electrical), Variable Special Effects (any electrical effect, +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4)

Yeah, that'll do it. :rofl:

[mattingly]

It's even more fun when you buy it on your STR, and become immune to all physical attacks. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

The total cheese way to do it:

EB 1d6 (vs. ED: electrical), Variable Special Effects (any electrical effect, +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4)

The TOTAL cheese way would be

EB 1 pip (vs. ED: electrical), Variable Special Effects (any electrical effect, +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4)

You're paying WAY too much! :eek:

[Katherine]

Wow, I didn't know Personal Immunity made the character totally immune to the sfx in question!

[bigbywolfe]

I don't think it does. This has officially become a humor thread.

[JmOz]

internet lost my post, but no by the rules similar F/X + Personal Immunity CAN with the GM PERMISION make you immune to similar builds.

Personaly I have done it a couple times, it is a nice way to model the Cyclops/Havok thing where neither can hurt each other with their powers but only each other...I would have a hard time allowing it for someone else with laser eyes however.

The only time I have used this in game was as a GM I made a team of evil clones (Actual clones) one of the characters had PI, so the clone did as well, I ruled that both of them were immune to each other (Clone boy knew generic MA that real hero did not...)