2 cents from the guy with 30 Hero books but who has never played the game

[dropblack]

I've been gaming for about 31 years now, mainly D&D in its various incarnations. I've always loved the idea of Hero System, and every year or so I pull my books out and try to become confident enough with it to push it on my friends. I've written extensive pages of notes and delineated the chapters with colorful plastic tabs. I don't know why this system has been so difficult for me to get grasp on-- I've literally had better luck translating ancient Chinese poetry. Inevitably the books go back in the box, and then back into the basement. Recently I pulled them out again and then learned about the plan for a 6th Edition.

I get the impression that most Hero fans have been playing it in some form or another since they were kids-- or were introduced to it by someone who had a solid grasp of the rules. When I picked up 5th Edition, it was cold off the shelf--and I felt a little like it was written for people who already new how to play the game. I may be the only one who feels this way--my only request is that the game gets presented in a more accessible manner.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to checking out the 6th Edition, and will most assuredly buy a copy.

[Lord Liaden]

Your reaction to the game is far from unique, dropblack, as is your difficulty in getting a game started. You have my sympathies.

By any chance, does one of your 30 books include HERO System Sidekick? It's the slimmed-down, simplified introductory version of the rules, specifically designed and playtested to teach the game to newcomers. It has most of the core rules from the full Fifth Edition rulebook, but with the numerous detailed explanations and optional elements trimmed down. It explains things in plain English with many examples. I've had people who were overwhelmed by the full rules say that they finally "get it" after reading Sidekick.

Sidekick is 128 pages for $15.00 US for a hardcopy, or only $7.00 for the PDF version. You can read about it, and order it if you wish, from the Hero Games web store, here (https://www.herogames.com/browse.htm?keywords=sidekick&categoryID=220000&releaseDate=-1&available=Y&book=Y&pdf=Y). And on this forum thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63175) you'll find a detailed fan review of the book.

If you'd like to try to learn the game by playing with more experience HEROphiles, perhaps you'll have luck finding a group in your area via the Player Finder forum (http://www.herogames.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17).

[Markdoc]

Another possibility is to simply haul out the books, generate a bunch of characters with your friends and play some one-off games. I picked up the rules with the help of a friend, but really got to know them by simply playing around.

We tried a large variety of simple one-off games in a variety of settings, with high lethality - it didn't matter that characters died, because no-one was expected to be played again and we could work out what worked for us and what didn't.

If you are not confident with getting the ball rolling with your friends, pick a simple setting with a single mission - a Western*, a Judge Dredd game, a Buffy game, a Special Ops game, a Wildstorm game, whatever your friends are into, so that they grok the characters, even if they don't get the mechanics at first. Then ask for help here to generate the characters yourself.

The mechanics actually look more complicated than they are.

*one thing we did was actually play the same game twice in different settings. At a Con, we played "samurai defend the village against bandits" (ie: the seven samurai) and then for the second session, took the same characters and swapped out all their weapons and (where appropriate) skills with Western ones and played "Coyboys defend the village against bandits" (ie: the magnificent seven). If Last Man Standing had been out back then, we probably would have done it with modern characters too! It was a hoot - even when (or maybe especially when) my character made a terrible error with some dynamite and blew himself into a fine red mist!

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

I started playing the game at the age of 17 (though I had possessed them for several years - similar to you before finding myself being pushed to run a game by my friends).

i think what you have to do is limit the rules that you need to play and slowly expand as you get demands by the players.

There have been some good suggestions already but I would suggest that you tell them the kind of game you want to play (Western/superhero/spy/ninja etc) and ask them for a character description.

Then you want to write up the characters yourself and create custom character sheets which only have the numbers they actually NEED to play on it - so CV, BODY, STUN, PD, ED possibly EGO and mental defence and any characteristic roll that is not 11 or less. I would not start the first game using END - that can be added later (though I would build the full character END use and all)

Beyond that you need to describe (in English) what the characters can do.

If you want to give a character a power that tires them out describe it like charges and the consequence of using it too much would by STUN damage from the use of other powers.

I would love to have some kind of guidance for new GMs produced - possibly like the Hero Adventures - a small $2 pdf that holds the GMs hand through those first couple of adventures and some examples of play and possible new looks to character sheets.


Doc

[Klaus Mogensen]

Since this forum is for discussion about the 6th edition, I think the question shouldn't be what Dropblack can do with the current edition, but how we can prevent similar experiences for future potential players.

I may be wrong, but I think most people here originally learned Hero from the less dense (and somewhat simpler) 3rd or 4th editions, hence moving to 5th and 5er wasn't a big problem (just as moving from AD&D2 to D&D3 probably wasn't for Dropblack). However, I can easily understand how 5er can be intimidating for newbies, however experienced they may be with other games. It's not so much the core rules that are complex (they aren't that bad), nor really the great number of options, but rather the detail with which each option is explained. Having to read 2-3 pages for each power that you might be interested in soon becomes exhausting.

There is such a thing as too much support. As the saying goes, when a thing becomes idiot proof, only an idiot would want to use it. M&M2 allows about as many options as 5er, with just as complex rules, but it doesn't seem anywhere near as intimidating, simply because most powers and modifiers are described in just a few lines. This doesn't feel like a lack of support, more like that the writers trust the players to figure things out for themselves. (I advise people here that aren't familiar with M&M2 to take a look at it. The rules aren't all that great in play, but they are very well presented, and character creation does allow almost as much flexibility as Hero).

5er tries to make account for every single possible misinterpretation of every single combination of powers, modifiers and framework with lots of detailed explanation in a language that would make engineers' and lawyers' heads hurt. I keep asking myself: Is it really important that every player everywhere interprets the rules the exact same way? I remember the early days of RPGs, where the rules often didn't support the simplest of things. We found ways to wing it that we were happy with rather than wasting time trying to figure out what the designers were thinking. Players aren't interested in treatises on rules, they are interested in playing! Besides, the notion that you can catch every possible abuse or misunderstanding of the rules is an illusion.

Hero 6th needs a lot of streamlining and particularly throwing a lot of less-than-essential text out. Sidekick is a good idea, but it shouldn't be a short version of the rules, it should be the rules. Leave all the non-essential explanation and examples for genre book and Ultimate books.

I would even go so far as to say that if a power, modifier or framework requires a lot of explaining, then it should be removed or replaced with something simpler, even if it actually works as it is. Volapúk (http://vo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cifapad) also works as it is, but that doesn't mean very many actually want to use it (though I'm sure that those that do use it find it perfectly simple)

- Klaus

[dropblack]

Thanks for all the responses!


By any chance, does one of your 30 books include HERO System Sidekick?

I picked this up during one of my more 'recent' attempts at learning the system, but got cocky and put it down in favor of the Revised edition--with a foolish sort of 'all or nothing' mentality. With the advent of 6th Edition I'm considering waiting before I invest time in studying the rules again--I'm not sure how much is going to get changed.


However, I can easily understand how 5er can be intimidating for newbies, however experienced they may be with other games. It's not so much the core rules that are complex (they aren't that bad), nor really the great number of options, but rather the detail with which each option is explained. Having to read 2-3 pages for each power that you might be interested in soon becomes exhausting.

I think you've hit it on the head here (for me)--It's ironic that my attraction to Hero is exactly what makes it so hard for me to play it--it's granular nature and endless amount of options. This is not to say that I want to see those options go away (quite the contrary) but when I pick up the book I feel like I'm being presented with an overwhelming meta-system. Instead explaining how every little nut and bolt works in the grand scheme of things, the core rule book may be more accessible to people like me if it just presents the surface value of things initially, and then gets into the nitty-gritty later on.

[Lord Liaden]

I picked this up during one of my more 'recent' attempts at learning the system, but got cocky and put it down in favor of the Revised edition--with a foolish sort of 'all or nothing' mentality. With the advent of 6th Edition I'm considering waiting before I invest time in studying the rules again--I'm not sure how much is going to get changed.


My advice to you is, Read Sidekick. Don't attempt to study it or plumb its depths -- just read through it, let the basics gel in your consciousness. From what I've read about the changes Steve Long is contemplating, the fundamental mechanical framework of what makes HERO, HERO, isn't going to change. If Sidekick helps you grasp that, it will be that much easier for you to pick up the 6E rules. And it's only 128 pages, not a massive investment in your time.

For that matter, if you already have 30 Fifth Edition books, the fact that Sixth Edition is coming out this year won't magically make it impossible to use what you've got now. ;) Quite a few in our community will continue running 5E games for some time; and it'll be years before there's enough 6E material to even approach what's in print for 5E.

Now, let me just offer a couple of threads that were posted to these forums containing tutorials on the two most complex elements of HERO, character generation and combat, for both "heroic" and "superheroic" games. Going through these may help you visualize the process more clearly. This thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3864) provides step-by-step chargen examples, while this one (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3210) gives detailed narrative examples of combat.

[dropblack]

Thanks for the links! I'll jump into Sidekick again and see how it goes.

Steve

[Greywind]

I've always found that character construction helps a great deal in understanding game mechanics.

[Lysando]

I'd recommend starting out with something like Pulp characters: high char.s, lots of skills and talents, some levels, but no powers, or maybe just one or two simple ones. Get familiar with combat with these characters. Then maybe move cautiously into more like superhero characters with simple powers, and work your way on up from that.

[Darclight]

While I have been aware of Hero System/Champions for many years now I only started playing about 2.5 years ago. I've only had 3 characters total in that time, created with much assistance from more experienced players. Thus, in many respects I am still pretty new to much of what can be done.

Like many skill based systems, as opposed to level based systems, Hero System can seem very daunting to the new player or GM. Hero System is even more so because it is not just a list of pre-built skills to select from. In Hero System you have to build everything from the ground up. Now this is great in that it lets you do just about anything within a fairly consistent game mechanic. It does however overwhelm new player.

Now the actual game play mechanics do not seem any more difficult then most games out there. There are always weird situations and exceptions, but that is pretty much true of any RPG that has been around for a while and has dozens of source books.

So the important thing for 6th edition is to make sure there is a good step by step character/power creation narative to help them get started. Spend a few pages going through some sample character builds from initial concept to final build. Not just finished example character, but an actual explanation of how the character was put together and some of the thoughts behind it.

Something similar would be helpful for GM's when it comes to how to create bad guys that are an appropriate challenge for the players they have. Despite the many negatives regarding the old school AD&D modules they do provide some easy to use examples and guidelines for the beginning GM.

So in general a small section in the main book(s) about the process of build characters, powers, encounters, etc. would be very helpful for the new players and GMs. Much like many of the discussion here on the forum, but in the books themselves.

Not sure if that all made much sense, but I figured I would post it anyway. ;)

[Karmakaze]

I've been gaming for about 31 years now, mainly D&D in its various incarnations. I've always loved the idea of Hero System, and every year or so I pull my books out and try to become confident enough with it to push it on my friends. I've written extensive pages of notes and delineated the chapters with colorful plastic tabs. I don't know why this system has been so difficult for me to get grasp on-- I've literally had better luck translating ancient Chinese poetry. Inevitably the books go back in the box, and then back into the basement. Recently I pulled them out again and then learned about the plan for a 6th Edition.

I get the impression that most Hero fans have been playing it in some form or another since they were kids-- or were introduced to it by someone who had a solid grasp of the rules. When I picked up 5th Edition, it was cold off the shelf--and I felt a little like it was written for people who already new how to play the game. I may be the only one who feels this way--my only request is that the game gets presented in a more accessible manner.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to checking out the 6th Edition, and will most assuredly buy a copy.

You know what's funny? With the exception of looking forward to the new edition, you've almost exactly described my experience with D&D. I pull the rules out from time to time, but I just can't make them gel for me. I can play (and GM) HERO or Ars Magica, both of which have a rep in the gaming world for being complex, but D&D makes my head hurt. Go figure.

I do second the idea of playing out of Sidekick for a while. I've also seen a lot of comments here that 6th edition is going to be split into two books instead of one giant tome. That may also help with making the system a little more digestible.

[Hyper-Man]

I've always found that character construction helps a great deal in understanding game mechanics.

Yes. :rolleyes:

[Steve Long]

I definitely appreciate the suggestions, but this really isn't the sort of thing I want people to talk about in this forum, so I'm locking the thread. Going forward if we want further suggestions on presentation or related issues I'll definitely start a thread or threads for that. ;)