Megascale Movement, Lightspeed, and Escape Velocity

[DocMan]

I've been developing a character called Inferno, as evidenced by a number of recent threads on him. He is a classic Human Torch type EB character. I had originally built him with 15" of regular flight, and something like 10" of Megascale flight at the 1" = 1 km range. My GM decided that my Megascale flight didn't belong in my EC, and moved it to my 60-point Multipower. This has resulted in upping the inches of Megascale to 20". And as my GM calculates it, upping Inferno's top speed to 16,777 MPH. He doesn't have the END to keep up that speed for a full hour, but it is fast.

So I started looking at the power, and realized that all our calculations had been done with just one level of Megascale. So I began to play.

Somewhere around 8 levels of Megascale movement, the character breaks lightspeed. And with the added Can Scale Down advantage, can still have something like 15" of Megascale movement.

I think I topped out my playing with 10" Megascale 1" = 1 billion km, Can Scale Down.

But this also triggered some frightening thoughts... Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/sec. Or just think of it as 12" Megascale 1" = 1 km. Yup. With just 12" of movement, you can reach escape velocity in a single phase. Just watch out for the guy with Megascale flight Usable as a Weapon. Even if you can survive in space, if you can't fly back, you're on a one-way ticket ride.

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I've screwed up the calculations. But then show me what it does take to reach escape velocity or break Lightspeed with a little Megascale movement.

Doc

[Greywind]

No side effects from breaking the sound barrier within the limits of a city?

[The Hawk God]

I am not a numbers stickler so being off by a little doesn't whigg me like some other people, so I am not going to jump all over proving if this concept is mathematically shaky.

This concept is essentially correct and represents the idea behind megascale. Now applying both UBO usable as an attack and megascale to a power like flight is very abusive and should be adjudicated carefully. It would not make it into one of my games, but in a DBZ game or something where knockback was bought with a megascale advantage then sure thing.

hmmm naked advantage (megascale 1"/1,000,000,000 Km) [+2 1/2] on 100 STR only applies to knockback [-1/2] x2 END [-1/2] 125 points which fits nicely in a megapowerful bricks Brick Tricks MP

[HawksmoorSD]

There's a saying you should keep in mind though. "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it." A Human Torch rip off having escape velocity I could almost buy. But light speed? I don't see it. Your GM made a good call on having you put your MS move into your MP but I'd really give some thought as to whether you need the move you have. Just be true to your concept.

[The Hawk God]

To be fair HSD Doc was just pointing out something he noticed, not that he was trying to get a Lightspeed Human Torch (that character is called FireLord and is a Herald of Galactus!)

This thread should be in the 5th Ed discussion forum but who cares..Sean Waters might find it here too, and we all know how much he loves conversations like this.

[DocMan]

No side effects from breaking the sound barrier within the limits of a city?

Currently worried about staying on the planet. Will get to the city later.

Actually, sonic booms shouldn't be THAT much of an issue, as long as they aren't too low. I would expect there to be some minimum altitude that authorities expect you to achieve before going supersonic.

Then again, if it was Megascale running instead of flight, you would have the same sonic boom issues...

Doc

[DocMan]

There's a saying you should keep in mind though. "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it." A Human Torch rip off having escape velocity I could almost buy. But light speed? I don't see it. Your GM made a good call on having you put your MS move into your MP but I'd really give some thought as to whether you need the move you have. Just be true to your concept.

I don't intend to BUY a power with Megascale bumped up high enough to exceed lightspeed. I was just surprised at how cheap it was. And how low escape velocity is.

The scary thought is that if you stun/KO someone who is moving at a Megascale velocity (no doubt using an attach with a Megascale AOE), they have to regain consciousness and decelerate before they leave the atmosphere or they are dead. How long they have depends on the length of the chord they cut across the atmosphere.

Doc

[HawksmoorSD]

You know I got wrapped around the idea of a Torch clone going into space that I didn't notice it was just an observation. In all seriousness I'm sorry if I offended. I'm used to dealing with power gamers and I jumped to a conclusion. :o

I'm sorry and I'll try to pay better attention in the future.

[braincraft]

Then again, if it was Megascale running instead of flight, you would have the same sonic boom issues...

You might also have issues with melting all the asphalt off the roads, depending on special effect.


The scary thought is that if you stun/KO someone who is moving at a Megascale velocity (no doubt using an attach with a Megascale AOE), they have to regain consciousness and decelerate before they leave the atmosphere or they are dead. How long they have depends on the length of the chord they cut across the atmosphere.

Unless they have Life Support; then they just wake up a few AU away and have to turn around and start accellerating back.

[The Hawk God]

Unless they have Life Support; then they just wake up a few AU away and have to turn around and start accellerating back.

Don't cha just love Galactic Champions?

[Split Decision]

There's a saying you should keep in mind though. "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it." A Human Torch rip off having escape velocity I could almost buy. But light speed? I don't see it. Your GM made a good call on having you put your MS move into your MP but I'd really give some thought as to whether you need the move you have. Just be true to your concept.


Yep. The most outrageous construction I have ever seen:


1 Bowling for Galactus: 1 pip RKA, OAF Immobile Expendable: Earth (-2 1/2) 1 Charge, Never Recovers (-4). (5 Active, 1 Real)

Clearly this is humorous. But at what point does this sort of thing become the realm of humor and fantasy? Probably about the time the Human Torch breaks lightspeed.

BTW: Balabanto and I were playing with Megascale on Growth. (It increases your size, but not your mass). You could make someone as large as the Milky Way, and weigh about 440 lbs with just a handful of points. But wouldjawanna?

[Matt the Bruins]

I was just surprised at how cheap it was.

As compared to lightspeed costing 10 character points when bought via Faster-Than-Light (FTL) Travel?

[Beast]

well unless you buy an attack power with trail on it you would be very areodynamic and your going over Mach 1 might scare cats, blow hats off,ruin rose gardens and knock over trash cans
also unless you have a limited amount of endurance(match your end use per turn with post 12 recovery)you can escape earths gravity by going 1"per phase (so long as you can breathe and your flight does not require an outside oxidizer
modern rockets are limited by fuel so they need to reach escape velocity

[braincraft]

BTW: Balabanto and I were playing with Megascale on Growth. (It increases your size, but not your mass). You could make someone as large as the Milky Way, and weigh about 440 lbs with just a handful of points. But wouldjawanna?

Yeah, but at that density you'd be made out of neutrinos or something and effectively have Desolid; of course, you'd need Desolid anyway, otherwise the odds of having some deadly event or object somewhere within your radius would be so high that you'd be in incredible danger.

It's weird to think about the consequences of certain power constructs. What if you had Megascale Stretching? You could reach out and touch the stars.

[Hyper-Man]

re: Megascale vs. FTL

60 Flight 5", No Turn Mode (+1/4), No Gravity Penalty (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), MegaScale (1" = 1 lightyear; +3 1/2), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (60 Active Points) - END=0

which is roughly equivalent to:
60 Faster-Than-Light Travel (1 Light Years/second) - END=0

...

Also, have you considered just applying the Variable Advantage to your Elemental Control Flight?

example:

45 Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; Reduced END, No Turn Mode or Megascale; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=4

At full speed the character would need to be careful to not get too high in the atmosphere as he might run out of air (and the ability to go back down with it).

[DocMan]

re: Megascale vs. FTL

60 Flight 5", No Turn Mode (+1/4), No Gravity Penalty (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), MegaScale (1" = 1 lightyear; +3 1/2), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (60 Active Points) - END=0

which is roughly equivalent to:
60 Faster-Than-Light Travel (1 Light Years/second) - END=0

Well, the big difference here is that the flight power can go 1 km if needed.

Also, have you considered just applying the Variable Advantage to your Elemental Control Flight?

example:

45 Flight 15", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; Reduced END, No Turn Mode or Megascale; +1/2) (45 Active Points) - END=4

No, I had not considered that one. I will have to take a look at that and see if my GM will let me up the points in the EC. I might be able to squeeze some extra points for other goodies if he buys the idea.

Good point!

Doc

[matthewcelis]

Where are the rules on "megascale"? I only have up to edition 4 and haven't seen it. Is that a 5th edition or 6th edition thing?

[Hyper-Man]

Where are the rules on "megascale"? I only have up to edition 4 and haven't seen it. Is that a 5th edition or 6th edition thing?

Yes, it's a Power Advantage introduced in 5e and modified in 6e. It primarily has to do with non-combat movement but can also be applied to the scale of Range and/or AOE effects as well.

[phoenix240]

Wouldn't most of these negative effects of high speed movement be Limitation? Or IO, if you don't take them your character doesn't suffer from them (for whatever comic book physics reason) even if they are "realistic"?

[Christopher]

Wouldn't most of these negative effects of high speed movement be Limitation? Or IO, if you don't take them your character doesn't suffer from them (for whatever comic book physics reason) even if they are "realistic"?
Yes, thay mostly are Limitations. By default you never suffer "realistic" consequences of your Powers, unless they are specified with a Limtiation or in the description of the power.

Realistically you would need a tough skin and LS: Breathing to survive mach-speed flight/running, or supertough bones to not break your hand while hitting with 12d6 from STR.
I think you could even use FTL without the Life support for space, but since you need to be far enough "out" before starting you will need a long breath and warm underwear to get from/to you starting distance.

[lapsedgamer]

Yes, thay mostly are Limitations. By default you never suffer "realistic" consequences of your Powers, unless they are specified with a Limtiation or in the description of the power.

Realistically you would need a tough skin and LS: Breathing to survive mach-speed flight/running, or supertough bones to not break your hand while hitting with 12d6 from STR.
I think you could even use FTL without the Life support for space, but since you need to be far enough "out" before starting you will need a long breath and warm underwear to get from/to you starting distance.

I always try to enforce this when I build a character, and I look for it in other people's builds as well. Unless the character is specifically built to highlight some limitation I expect some sort powers and stats in the build to handle these issues and some discussion of the rationale in the write-up.

[matthewcelis]

Yes, it's a Power Advantage introduced in 5e and modified in 6e. It primarily has to do with non-combat movement but can also be applied to the scale of Range and/or AOE effects as well.

I see, it's for the power munchkins.

[Christopher]

I see, it's for the power munchkins.
You apperantly got:
50m Leaping, Megascaled (1m= 100 km), Inacurate, Only to Jump to Conclusions(-2).

Megascale is a nice advantage, designed to "build flavorfull but not game breaking abilities".
Most common is megascaled movement, wich has all the drawbacks of Non-Combat Movement and then some.
Also common is Megascale for Spaceships (sensor, movement).
Or to define some fringe powers, like the "instant, citywide icestorm".
Mind Scan has some Levels build into it (I think the equivalent of +1 1/2 Megascale or so).

[lapsedgamer]

You apperantly got:
50m Leaping, Megascaled (1m= 100 km), Inacurate, Only to Jump to Conclusions(-2).

Megascale is a nice advantage, designed to "build flavorfull but not game breaking abilities".
Most common is megascaled movement, wich has all the drawbacks of Non-Combat Movement and then some.
Also common is Megascale for Spaceships (sensor, movement).
Or to define some fringe powers, like the "instant, citywide icestorm".
Mind Scan has some Levels build into it (I think the equivalent of +1 1/2 Megascale or so).

I have to agree. When properly monitored it fixes a problem that was very common in earlier editions of the game. Even at starting point totals, some characters should have the ability to travel between cities easily, or to attain orbital flight. You could never do this before. In the past to get that build, you would just have to throw points at it until the character ended up costing 500 points or more just in movement powers.

I'm not saying it can't be abused, but it comes in handy when used maturely.

[matthewcelis]

You apperantly got:
50m Leaping, Megascaled (1m= 100 km), Inacurate, Only to Jump to Conclusions(-2).

Megascale is a nice advantage, designed to "build flavorfull but not game breaking abilities".
Most common is megascaled movement, wich has all the drawbacks of Non-Combat Movement and then some.
Also common is Megascale for Spaceships (sensor, movement).
Or to define some fringe powers, like the "instant, citywide icestorm".
Mind Scan has some Levels build into it (I think the equivalent of +1 1/2 Megascale or so).

So you're a power munchkin. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you're into. I find it a bore.

[Teflon Billy]

So you're a power munchkin. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you're into. I find it a bore.Why are you even here?

You've done nothing but bad mouth the current system and made it quite clear that you want to continue to run on an edition of the Hero System that might be charitably described as neolithic.

Since you are new here, you might want to learn some better manners and be a little more polite in your interactions.

TB

[Thag13]

Hey Guys and Gals....lets just cool it off a bit....OK?? Lets have some fun here with the builds... I am speaking as a mod here....

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd rather see a player build a cleverly designed megascale power with an interesting effect than just spend the points on more CV, defenses and damage classes. I consider the latter more a power munchkin than the former.

Sure, Megascale can be abused. So can Energy Blast. With 350 points, or even 250 points, I can easily buy a 20d6 Energy Blast with, say, 16 charges. My remaining points can build a plain character with competitive OCV, DCV, defenses, movement, etc. In most Supers games, having a 20DC attack would be excessive - munchkinny - far more than being able to fly or teleport anywhere on the planet in a matter of seconds, or being able to call up a rainstorm that covers the entire county.

Or, a popular 4e construct, 2d6 Aid, Stun and END, 0 END, persistent. Every phase, get back an average of 7 STUN and 14 END. Policing that in 4e was no easier than policing Megascale in 5e or 6e.

[brionl]

I always try to enforce this when I build a character, and I look for it in other people's builds as well. Unless the character is specifically built to highlight some limitation I expect some sort powers and stats in the build to handle these issues and some discussion of the rationale in the write-up.

It depends on the genre you're playing. Moody, angsty, ultra-violent Iron Age comics? Yes. Whacky, over-the-top, Silver Age fun stuff? No.
The corollary to "If it isn't a limitation, you don't get points for it." Is "If you aren't getting points for it, it isn't a limitation." Flash can run at mach-plus speeds through the middle of a city w/o breaking every window because he didn't take a side effects limitation on his movement power.

[CrosshairCollie]

Sure, Megascale can be abused. So can Energy Blast. With 350 points, or even 250 points, I can easily buy a 20d6 Energy Blast with, say, 16 charges.

You can build a 250 point character capable of destroying the known universe. My first Champs GM hung out with guys who, in 4e, made 250 point characters who could flatten the high-end Dr. Destroyer in a phase (as in, each individual PC could). HERO is the most utterly abusable system on the face of the planet because of how open-ended it is. That's why you create this like campaign guidelines and watch character creation carefully, and play with players who simply don't want to do such things.

[lapsedgamer]

It depends on the genre you're playing. Moody, angsty, ultra-violent Iron Age comics? Yes. Whacky, over-the-top, Silver Age fun stuff? No.
The corollary to "If it isn't a limitation, you don't get points for it." Is "If you aren't getting points for it, it isn't a limitation." Flash can run at mach-plus speeds through the middle of a city w/o breaking every window because he didn't take a side effects limitation on his movement power.

The effects of powers on the environment and such are basically handwaved within the genre rules of the Champions setting. I was talking more about the little things in character building. If I build a Flash rip-off of some sort, I like to add in things like a naked Rapid advantage for normal sight and hearing and resistant protection through a special costume or a force-field-like aura. I just like doing that, and I also like builds by others where those little grace notes have been considered.

I wouldn't as a GM necessarily demand that, but I think even with the most generic of builds there should be some stuff like that included. It's not necessarily wanting to go Iron Age, I just have always enjoyed it when the comics writers tried to explain things, even with implausible rubber science. You have to remember that the Silver Age started with this kind of stuff with the Flash. Unless the player said that he wanted to play up a theoretical limitation and wrote his character that way, I wouldn't severely penalize him, or penalize him at all for that matter.. That's not in keeping with the general Champions guidelines.


You can build a 250 point character capable of destroying the known universe. My first Champs GM hung out with guys who, in 4e, made 250 point characters who could flatten the high-end Dr. Destroyer in a phase (as in, each individual PC could). HERO is the most utterly abusable system on the face of the planet because of how open-ended it is. That's why you create this like campaign guidelines and watch character creation carefully, and play with players who simply don't want to do such things.

Yeah, I used to play with guys like that, and I didn't always enjoy it. I would bring a fairly faithful rendition of Hawkeye or Iron Fist to the table, and these guys would have their abusive demigod-on-a-budget builds. As much as I dislike some of the added complexity of the later editions of Champions, I do recognize the need for a lot of the new guidelines and extensive stop signage in the text. Hero needs a strong GM who knows the rules pretty well and is not afraid to say no.

[phoenix240]

The effects of powers on the environment and such are basically handwaved within the genre rules of the Champions setting. I was talking more about the little things in character building. If I build a Flash rip-off of some sort, I like to add in things like a naked Rapid advantage for normal sight and hearing and resistant protection through a special costume or a force-field-like aura. I just like doing that, and I also like builds by others where those little grace notes have been considered.

I wouldn't as a GM necessarily demand that, but I think even with the most generic of builds there should be some stuff like that included. It's not necessarily wanting to go Iron Age, I just have always enjoyed it when the comics writers tried to explain things, even with implausible rubber science. You have to remember that the Silver Age started with this kind of stuff with the Flash. Unless the player said that he wanted to play up a theoretical limitation and wrote his character that way, I wouldn't severely penalize him, or penalize him at all for that matter.. That's not in keeping with the general Champions guidelines.



Yeah, I used to play with guys like that, and I didn't always enjoy it. I would bring a fairly faithful rendition of Hawkeye or Iron Fist to the table, and these guys would have their abusive demigod-on-a-budget builds. As much as I dislike some of the added complexity of the later editions of Champions, I do recognize the need for a lot of the new guidelines and extensive stop signage in the text. Hero needs a strong GM who knows the rules pretty well and is not afraid to say no.

And occasionally "Hell no!" :)

[moquif]

But this also triggered some frightening thoughts... Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/sec. Or just think of it as 12" Megascale 1" = 1 km. Yup. With just 12" of movement, you can reach escape velocity in a single phase. Just watch out for the guy with Megascale flight Usable as a Weapon. Even if you can survive in space, if you can't fly back, you're on a one-way ticket ride.

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I've screwed up the calculations. But then show me what it does take to reach escape velocity or break Lightspeed with a little Megascale movement.
I think unofficially you should be calculating your velocity over a turn when comparing game mechanics to real world speeds. So if you have a SPD of 6 you're only half way there to escape velocity. So you need to spend the points for enough NCM so your velocity is 134.4 km/turn.

[Christopher]

I think unofficially you should be calculating your velocity over a turn when comparing game mechanics to real world speeds. So if you have a SPD of 6 you're only half way there to escape velocity. So you need to spend the points for enough NCM so your velocity is 134.4 km/turn.
That is the official way from 6E2 24.

At this speed/turn (134.4 km) you would also be at a Velocity based DCV of 25 instead of the normal NCM/Megascale DCV.