Not "Secret", not "Public", just "Identity"

[jwpacker]

Having set up a character recently who has neither Secret nor Public Identity as a Disadvantage, can we talk about what, specifically, my advantages are over those people who did pick one or the other?

[Clonus]

Having set up a character recently who has neither Secret nor Public Identity as a Disadvantage, can we talk about what, specifically, my advantages are over those people who did pick one or the other?

The advantage over Secret Identity is obvious. No need to change into costume in a crisis, no getting bugged by your family or your girlfriend about your mysterious disappearances, and no villain discovering your secret identity which always leads to them taking advantage of your exposure to blow up your house.

The advantage over Public ID is less obvious. It basically boils down to not being constantly stalked by autograph hounds and paparazzi.

[bubba smith]

true enough

[Vulcan]

On the down side, the GM is likely going to give you an effective 'secret' or 'public' ID in game play at some point anyway, and you won't get the points.

Since you don't have a secret ID, it can be assumed that you take no special precautions to separate your 'heroic' and 'normal' identites, meaning that it won't take the villians long to figure out who you (and your DNPC's) are. :help: Or a reporter might just do it instead, and announce your identity to the world. :rolleyes:

[StGrimblefig]

I would say that the state of having neither a Secret Identity nor a Public Identity is called "Unknown" -- nobody knows you, yet. This is the state of the vast majority of the "normal" populace.

As soon as you do something noteworthy, causing others to care who you are, you will have one or the other -- and you may not get to choose which.

[Heckus]

Another downside to Public ID is the vulnerability of family and Friends. Unless you're an alien, an orphan raised by wolves, or a robot, you probably have family somewhere and, close or not, villains like VIPER will harass them if you piss them off. Have a girlfriend? She's fair game too. Your DNPCs are that much more vulnerable. Also be prepared for the bi-weekly house/apartment bomb or vengeful villains showing up on your doorstep at 3 AM.

To have neither a public nor a secret ID is to be a person who either has no ID apart from his super ID (see examples above) or whose normal ID is so unimpressive that if his real name were to be revealed no one would care.

Dr. Destructo: "Ha-ha!! At last to reveal the identity of my arch nemesis, Punch-Man." <pulls off mask> "ummm....who the hell are you?"

Punch-Man: "Gary Garison, lawn-care consultant."

Dr. Destructo: " You gotta be $%&#-'n me."

A player of mine once tried to get points for public ID and then said he was an only child and his parents and grandparents were dead, he had no lasting friendships, lived in an trailer outside the city (illegally parked), and worked as a homeoffice internet salesman (obviously trying to completely invalidate the "public" downsides). While he was away on his first adventure, his mobile home was stolen by his hunted, filled with bombs and detonated on the steps of the City Building. The charred license plates led the police back to him.

[Killer Shrike]

The main difference over Secret or Public Identity is that just Identity isn't worth any actual points, or at best 5 points if you can illustrate some particulars of your character that make such a "nonstate" somewhat limiting.

[sinanju]

Dr. Destructo: "Ha-ha!! At last to reveal the identity of my arch nemesis, Punch-Man." <pulls off mask> "ummm....who the hell are you?"

Punch-Man: "Gary Garison, lawn-care consultant."

Dr. Destructo: " You gotta be $%&#-'n me."


There was an issue of Captain America once where Cap was defeated and rendered unconscious. The bad guys took off his mask.

Bad Guy: "Huh. He's just some guy. I thought he'd be somebody famous."

[Heckus]

There was an issue of Captain America once where Cap was defeated and rendered unconscious. The bad guys took off his mask.

Bad Guy: &quot;Huh. He's just some guy. I thought he'd be somebody famous.&quot;

There was also an episode of JLU where Lex Luthor and the Flash switch bodies. Lex says "well at least I can find out whose behind this Mask". pulls it off. Short puase. "I have no idea who this is."

[Marcus Impudite]

Lack of either identity-related Social Limitation usually means that you identity, widely known or not, is a non-issue to most people.

[AmadanNaBriona]

On the down side, the GM is likely going to give you an effective 'secret' or 'public' ID in game play at some point anyway, and you won't get the points.

Since you don't have a secret ID, it can be assumed that you take no special precautions to separate your 'heroic' and 'normal' identites, meaning that it won't take the villians long to figure out who you (and your DNPC's) are. :help: Or a reporter might just do it instead, and announce your identity to the world. :rolleyes:

IMO, what you're describing here is EXACTLY the most common pitfall that GM's can fall into when faced with a character with no ID related Social Disadvantages.

The Character gets no Disad points for it. Therefore, it shouldn't disadvantage the Character, so it follows that hammering the No "*" ID character for not having a "*" ID isn't fair.
Gamemasters who can't control their compulsion to frack with characters because they don't maintain a Secret ID should require an ID related disad in their campaign ground rules.

But not taking the Disad should never be worse that taking the Disad

[KA.]

Public ID and Secret ID are Disadvantages.
To me that means that you are getting
additional character points
in exchange for
whatever problems that decision may cause your character.

If you do not choose either of those Disadvantages, then you should not be, to any great degree, caused to suffer because of your Identity.

I see it sort of like a power. If I buy an Energy Blast with the Limitation "Charges" then there should be a number of occasions during the campaign when I run out, or have to conserve them, or can't recharge them, etc.
I got extra points, dice of damage, whatever, in exchange for putting up with the problems.
A character that just has "Energy Blast" with no Limitations, should not run into those kind of problems on any sort of regular basis. And I would think a GM was being unfair if they imposed those sorts of Limitations.

By the same token, I don't think a character without Secret or Public ID should be given "Public ID" (and all the problems that go with it) by default, as soon as the campaign starts.
I think the character should be able to have a "secret ID" that they do not get any points for, and also is not the source of any real problems.
They should not have nosy reporters following them around all the time, or their significant other constantly asking inconvenient questions, or any of the other problems which are common for characters who got the extra points for taking the Secret ID Disadvantage.

I think this concept is reflected in the comics. Some characters have people who are constantly trying to find out who they really are, others do not. The only time the issue comes up is as part of some story arc like Identity Crisis where some Villain is specifically going after the loved ones of Superheroes.
It a case like that, I can see the character being part of that plot, but otherwise I do not think they should have to deal with those sorts of problems.

I realize that in-game actions can change things.
If a character goes to a Viper Nest, blows it up, hacks into the Serpentine Network, posts all their future plans to the Champions Team message board, and then proceeds to leave their Driver's License at the scene, they can expect a visit to their home in the near future.

But as long as a character is reasonably discreet, and takes neither Secret nor Public ID Disadvantages, I just see them as having a "secret ID" without most of the problems that other characters receive in exchange for the extra points.

KA.

[Vox]

I would say that a non-Secret, non-Public identity would best suit a superhero who everyone assumes doesn't have a secret identity. Superman, for example. I wouldn't give him Disad points for his Clark Kent identity because everyone on Earth takes it for granted that Superman is aways Superman. If nobody is actively trying to figure out your secret, it's not really a disadvantage.

Having your friends/relatives in danger isn't a side effect of having a Secret/Public identity, it's a side effect of being a superhero.

~Gabriel

[Kestrel]

Having a Public ID means your hero is well-known. People know his favorite foods. What his favorite color is. They also have an idea what his weaknesses are. Who he dates. If he's married. Where he works. (If he has an actual job.)

Secret ID means your hero takes great pains to have people NOT find out all this great stuff. Which means when the sh*t hits the fan, he can't just tear his clothes off/transform/go leaping into the sky, without seriously risking being found out.

If your hero takes the middle road, it means that he is probably an up-and-comer, or someone who just does things in his own quiet way. He doesn't take any special measures to conceal what he does, but he doesn't flaunt it, either. However, if your hero plans on fighting crime, sooner or later he's going to start ticking people off. These people are going to want to know who this guy is. And they're going to start looking for him. Without taking any special precautions, sooner or later they're going to find him and express their displeasure.

So, you can either take the points right off the bat for either sort of ID, or you can let things evolve and end up having to decide how to deal with people knowing who your hero is, along with where he lives, works, plays and who is important in his life. Most gm's are willing to work with players to shift disad points around as the character becomes more defined. Maybe he had a phobia about snakes, but now realizes that there's no snake in existence who can pierce his armored hide. At the same time he realizes he needs to do something about those pesky ninja leaping out of the fridge when he's trying to sneak a little snack at 3 a.m. So the gm decides to allow the player to shift points around to get a nice Secret ID along with some way to assume a new identity. Or he ends up with a Public ID and STILL has to deal with the ninja infestation problem.

[ghost-angel]

It really means - it never comes up in the game. And if it does it better be the focus of the story and something should happen to either return to the status quo or it's just dropped again because - it should never come up in the game.

[Trebuchet]

A player of mine once tried to get points for public ID and then said he was an only child and his parents and grandparents were dead, he had no lasting friendships, lived in an trailer outside the city (illegally parked), and worked as a homeoffice internet salesman (obviously trying to completely invalidate the "public" downsides). While he was away on his first adventure, his mobile home was stolen by his hunted, filled with bombs and detonated on the steps of the City Building. The charred license plates led the police back to him.:rofl:

Repped.

[nexus]

Lack of either identity-related Social Limitation usually means that you identity, widely known or not, is a non-issue to most people.

Yep.

Either no one knows who are you and almost nobody cares or everyone's seen your true ID...and almost no one cares.

In a narrative sense it can mean "This will never be a big deal either way except for possibly a one shot plot device at some point." If everyone knows who you are, you won't be regularly hassled by fans/haters, have your DNPCs (if any) easily tracked, hounded at your home, etc. Or you won't have issues juggling your real life and your costumed ID, have your identity threatened or used as blackmail against you, get framed with it or have other issues or at least things like will only happen very very rarely and probably once where as someone that received points they'll be fairly regular occurrence.

[Clonus]

IMO, what you're describing here is EXACTLY the most common pitfall that GM's can fall into when faced with a character with no ID related Social Disadvantages.

The Character gets no Disad points for it. Therefore, it shouldn't disadvantage the Character, so it follows that hammering the No "*" ID character for not having a "*" ID isn't fair.

This is true, but it is also true that people should only take No ID when in fact it is believable that the character will still have No ID once his career is up and running. Just as it is possible to blow a Secret ID and need to substitute the points, it's possible to blow a lack of ID and become so famous that the media is stalking you like Brangelina. It helps if you don't take credit for the amazing things you do. Alternately you can wear a flashy costume even though you have no secret ID, so that when out of costume almost nobody recognises you.

[Fedifensor]

This is true, but it is also true that people should only take No ID when in fact it is believable that the character will still have No ID once his career is up and running.
Which is believable for the character in this case, because he's a mentalist. For many of his powers, the only person who knows he is doing something is the target. However, what No ID really means is that you won't be saddled with the traditional problems of a Secret or Public ID.

For example, whether you have a Secret or Public ID, the issue of how you make ends meet will come up frequently. For a Secret ID, most people have to go to a job, and the boss won't accept the excuse of "I was fighting crime". Even if you're a multimillionaire, you have to worry about people embezzling funds, members of your corporation running Black Ops off the books, etc. A large part of the time you spend away from the team will be at your job, so Secret ID is definitely worth the 15 points.

For a Public ID, it can be hard to maintain a normal job if you keep having reporters, crazed fans, and supervillains showing up where you work. It's even worse if your job is "celebrity" - which is why I treat that as a separate Social Limitation (partially balanced by the need to buy Well Off).

On a separate note...how many people give out the extra 5 points on Hunteds for "target has a Public ID"? Do you ever have a situation where the Hunted is rolled, but can't find the character so it doesn't come up?

[Ranxerox]

IMO, back in the day, Wolverine was a good example of someone without either Secret or Public I.D. Pretty much everyone Logan knew was aware that he was Wolverine so he never had to go out of his way keep his I.D. secret. On the other hand, most villains did not know where he lived and the people in his life could generally take care of themselves so he didn't have deal with the consequences of a Public I.D.

When I GM a superhero campaign, I usually require my player to take either Secret or Public I.D. or explain to me why their character don't have the problems associated with either of those disadvantages.

[jwpacker]

Which is believable for the character in this case, because he's a mentalist. For many of his powers, the only person who knows he is doing something is the target. However, what No ID really means is that you won't be saddled with the traditional problems of a Secret or Public ID.

Step out of your character in the same game for a sec, Fed... how on god's green earth do I introduce myself to people? I'm still trying to figure how I'll play that one. :)

[ghost-angel]

Step out of your character in the same game for a sec, Fed... how on god's green earth do I introduce myself to people? I'm still trying to figure how I'll play that one. :)

"My name is Indigo Montoya, you killed my father. Now prepare to die."

It'll make for some interesting conversations later if nothing else.

[Fedifensor]

Step out of your character in the same game for a sec, Fed... how on god's green earth do I introduce myself to people? I'm still trying to figure how I'll play that one. :)
I think the previous post is a good guideline...


IMO, back in the day, Wolverine was a good example of someone without either Secret or Public I.D. Pretty much everyone Logan knew was aware that he was Wolverine so he never had to go out of his way keep his I.D. secret. On the other hand, most villains did not know where he lived and the people in his life could generally take care of themselves so he didn't have deal with the consequences of a Public I.D.
So, if you're wearing a costume, you're Engram. If you're not, even if you have to use your powers, you're Armando. Explain things to the cops...they'll have a file on you, but that can't be helped. Just don't stick around giving interviews to the media.

[jwpacker]

Yeah, Logan was a perfect example to use for me. That I can wrap my brain around.

[Karma]

As people have said the difference is that Secret ID comes with a set of problems (Villians trying to discover it, Having to 'slip off to put n your mask', sometimes being unable to stop the badguys because you can't get away to get into costume) and Public ID has others (Protesters outside your house, Villians knowing where you live, anything Celebs have to put up with plus Badguys really). If you don't have either and don't get points you should have very few of these problems.

Actually the only reason that I can think of in genre for why a character doesn't have either is that they don't go out of their way to hide it and so people don't really care much. The X-men are a little like this. Most of the time they didn't wear masks, but people who knew them usually knew they were mutants and to those who didn't they were 'just some guys'. I wouldn't have given them Secret ID or Public ID myself (Until the 'big outing', when they made themselves 'Public') (The Institute OTOH would have had Secret ID, there is a difference. The public might know who you are but have no idea where you live).

[Metaphysician]

Dr Strange is another such example. He's not really known by the public, but those who do know of him, know who he is and what he does. However, even though his villains know who he is and where he lives, it doesn't especially cause him troubles beyond the expected.

Or, looking at it from another angle, those villains who can cause him trouble, could see through any secret identity anyway, and those who would be obstructed by such, would not be a problem for him anyway.

[Lucius]

"No identity" is a three point perk.

Lucius Alexander

And an unidentified palindromedary

[ghost-angel]

"No identity" is a three point perk.

Lucius Alexander

And an unidentified palindromedary

There's a difference between No Id and having an ID no one cares about. No ID means you don't exist in databases, no birth or police records.

Having an ID that no one cares about is different. You have a birth record, medical records can be found, credit score. Just, you know, it never comes up. No points paid - no bonus. No points given - no down side. Like 99% of the planet.

[Dr Archeville]

There's a char in CKC who has neither a Public nor Secret ID. Morningstar. It's described thusly:


Morningstar no longer has a human form; he’s trapped in his quasi-demonic shape forever. For this reason, he has no Social Limitation regarding his identity; it’s neither public nor concealable.

[Karmakaze]

Step out of your character in the same game for a sec, Fed... how on god's green earth do I introduce myself to people? I'm still trying to figure how I'll play that one. :)


So, if you're wearing a costume, you're Engram. If you're not, even if you have to use your powers, you're Armando. Explain things to the cops...they'll have a file on you, but that can't be helped. Just don't stick around giving interviews to the media.

The last time I did one of those, Lucy just didn't tend to introduce herself. The rest of the team knew she was there, and I think the police liaison for the team was under the impression she was just staff or somebody's DNPC.

[Marketeer]

Looking at the comics, I also would suggest that many characters, while they may have Secret or Public ID in their solo titles, would lack either Disadvantage in their team titles--it just does not come up as often in team titles.

I agree with the general consensus that if you have neither Disadvantage, the associated social issues just do not occur (as often) for your character.

One other comic character who seems to lack either Disadvantage is Oracle (Barbara Gordon). She does not seem to lead the double life that is characteristic of a Secret ID, but criminals in general have no idea who she is, to the point where her exisetence is something of an underworld legend.

[Metaphysician]

I don't know, while she didn't live a prominent alternate life like most secret ID types, she *did* have a number of enemies quite intent on tracking down her true identity, and more importantly, location.

Personal details about her are generally unknown, she puts considerable effort into keeping them that way, and the consequences of a security breach are considerable ( as they were the times when such happened ). I'd say it counts.

[Zac]

Yeah, Logan was a perfect example to use for me. That I can wrap my brain around.

Not getting the Disad for Secret or Public ID means (for me) that at the start of the game you are a blank slate. There are no activities linked to the hero or to the civilian. Now, if during an adventure you take center stage and profess to the media it was you who defeated Dr. ABC... you may just get to swing some points around. However, if you keep standard precautions (bikini mask = who is that mysterious stranger) no one will know who you are. If you have hunteds they will come after you as a hero and are not particular about anyone else. With a Public ID they pretty much know where to look or with a Secret ID, people are snooping around.

I normally ask players to pick a Secret or Public ID, but since you are mentalist.... (as Fed said) only the target knows it was you. Now if the popular press develops a new filter that allows them to see mental attacks and intentions you might be in trouble :sneaky:

I think is was said earlier, "You did not pay for the disad, the disad does not impact you." Will it stay that way though the course of an adventure or the campaign? Who knows.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

It really means - it never comes up in the game. And if it does it better be the focus of the story and something should happen to either return to the status quo or it's just dropped again because - it should never come up in the game.

This.

[Alibear]

It really means - it never comes up in the game. And if it does it better be the focus of the story and something should happen to either return to the status quo or it's just dropped again because - it should never come up in the game.

What this bloke said. I'd rep you but I must spread the love. Spread the love.

[Vulcan]

So what should happen to the PC who helps break up a major attempt by VIPER to take over Campaign City? Shouldn't he get 'Hunted by Viper' as a 0-point, 'earned in play' disad?

And what makes 'Secret ID' or 'Public ID' immune to that?

[ghost-angel]

They only go after the PC when they go after the group.

Disad's are story telling cues, no strangleholds on the character.

It really does come down to the corollary of "If you did not pay points" - "if you don't get points it does not disadvantage you."

Now, if the Player and GM agree - they could gain a 0 Point Version in Play just like any other Disadvantage that is nominally gained during play. Or it replaces a another Disad the Character does have.

[Cygnia]

How (if it does at all) would the Perk "Anonymity" play into this at all?

[Zac]

So what should happen to the PC who helps break up a major attempt by VIPER to take over Campaign City? Shouldn't he get 'Hunted by Viper' as a 0-point, 'earned in play' disad?

And what makes 'Secret ID' or 'Public ID' immune to that?

I only throw "Earned in Play" penalities at players for throwing their own rope over a branch, making the noose and hanging themselves with it. Simply getting a disad for being hero equates to getting the short end of the stick in my book. Now if it was a Dark game, thats a different story. Public/Secret ID has nothing to do with it. Some foes come back to haunt you (normally the ones you paid points for) while the other sulk off to lick their wounds.

Sometimes, I will give a disad through the course of play and turn around to spend it on something particular (prime example would be a base), but that would be it.

[Ragdoll]

The cynic in me thinks it'd go something like this:

Secret ID: You can't be sued.

Public ID: You get sued 'CONSTANTLY'

Neither Secret nor Public: You get sued, just not constantly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Now, if the Player and GM agree - they could gain a 0 Point Version in Play just like any other Disadvantage that is nominally gained during play. Or it replaces a another Disad the Character does have.

It's interesting how we're generally OK with the character losing points (picking up disad's) in play, but we'd never allow them to GAIN points (like contacts, favours or other perks) in play.

It would be nice to see this balanced out. Sure, you picked up Hunted-VIPER, but your public defeat of VIPER also picked you up a positive Reputation and some Favours from various people whose lives were saved or improved because you beat VIPER back.

[ghost-angel]

It's interesting how we're generally OK with the character losing points (picking up disad's) in play, but we'd never allow them to GAIN points (like contacts, favours or other perks) in play.

It would be nice to see this balanced out. Sure, you picked up Hunted-VIPER, but your public defeat of VIPER also picked you up a positive Reputation and some Favours from various people whose lives were saved or improved because you beat VIPER back.

Actually, funny you mention that... the most common 'you got it during play' things we get in at least one of my gaming groups is Contacts and Money. Not to mention the random free Skill Level in a KS or such. For no cost.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Remember to separate Public ID from a Watched by the Media (or the like). Just because you have a Public ID, doesn't mean that the paparazzi is camping out on your doorstep.

I'd have to see a combination of positive/negative Reputation, Hunted (Watched), etc. for that level of scrutiny.

To not have either Secret or Public ID means to me that while your ID COULD be figured out with some basic detective work, no one is particularly interested enough unless you MAKE them. While you don't start out with any inherent disadvantages re: your ID, you can earn them through game play depending on how much you flout your privacy. If you basically work at it (not to the level that you would have to if you had a Secret ID), no one's going to get the scoop on ya, they don't think of it, they don't care, etc.

[Shadow Hawk]

Now wait... My characters get bonuses to go with thier penalties. Thrwart Viper, and yes, Viper will want vengeance... but the mayor will owe you a favor, the CoPolice will 'loan' you a SWAT team for back up, your average citizen will look on you favorably, you can get a good table at that snooty downtown nightclub...

[Fedifensor]

It's interesting how we're generally OK with the character losing points (picking up disad's) in play, but we'd never allow them to GAIN points (like contacts, favours or other perks) in play.
I treat Disadvantages as changing over time. Secret IDs can be switched to Public IDs, old Hunteds can be defeated and "traded in" for new Hunteds, etc. I have yet to actually tell someone that they have to buy off a Disadvantage without allowing them to replace it with a different one.

As far as gaining new Hunteds...if a character antagonizes a villain or villain group enough, they will temporarily gain them as a Hunted. This may go away as the Hunted calms down, or become permanent after the player trades them out for a Hunted on the character sheet that isn't coming up as often.

[The Hawk God]

Lack of either identity-related Social Limitation usually means that you identity, widely known or not, is a non-issue to most people.

I agree with this totally at first.

But, not having an "identity" disad can come back to haunt the character later. Mostly in getting a suddenly "public identity". Hunteds will learn to come after you once they learn where you hang your spandex. The idea is that the character is a symbol some of the time (SID) or all of the time (PID)...you don't have to make the choice NOW, but you will have to make it!

Now, in the cases of Spiderman, Captain America, and even the Flash in their unmaskings (and to an extent Superman) people expect them to be more important so the big reveal is disappointing. That does not mean that secret identity means nothing, it just means a face without a background is well worthless.

The Hawk has spoken

[ghost-angel]

I agree with this totally at first.

But, not having an "identity" disad can come back to haunt the character later. Mostly in getting a suddenly "public identity". Hunteds will learn to come after you once they learn where you hang your spandex. The idea is that the character is a symbol some of the time (SID) or all of the time (PID)...you don't have to make the choice NOW, but you will have to make it!

Now, in the cases of Spiderman, Captain America, and even the Flash in their unmaskings (and to an extent Superman) people expect them to be more important so the big reveal is disappointing. That does not mean that secret identity means nothing, it just means a face without a background is well worthless.

The Hawk has spoken

See - this is the biggest problem - no, really it doesn't have to be one or the other.

If you didn't get any points it doesn't Disadvantage you. You can make it a one off plot point, but it will NOT become a constant problem anymore than a Player can decide they have an Energy Blast they didn't pay for.

Not taking either is a Player cue to the GM that it's not an issue they want to focus on with their Character. I think it's poor form for the GM to crap on the player by giving them a Public ID because they didn't take any off-Normal ID from the start.

Single story - that's it. No more, no less, nothing else. The GM has to respect the player as much as the player has to respect the GM.

[Delthrien]

Hmmm... then all of this sort of begs the question:

What would it be worth if you had No Identity?


No one knows you... at all.

There's no record of your birth... or death.

You're not in any system... anywhere.

... and there's nothing you can do to make it otherwise.

:eg:

[Marketeer]

Hmmm... then all of this sort of begs the question:

What would it be worth if you had No Identity?


No one knows you... at all.

There's no record of your birth... or death.

You're not in any system... anywhere.

... and there's nothing you can do to make it otherwise.

:eg:

Sounds like the equivalent of a social lim or physical lim, depending on how you want to tone the disadvantage. It would depend a lot on how badly your character needs things like food and shelter, since one of the biggest hits would be to your character's ability to make a living and create things like bank accounts.

[Ranxerox]

Framed as physical limitation, say "Instantly Forgettable" I would say it would be All The Time and Slightly impairing. So that would make it worth15 points, with other points possibly available for Poor (can't hold a job after all) and the Psych limitation: "Lonely and wishes he could form relationships".

Of course, if some other person or thing is actively preventing people and data bases from remembering the character then it would be a Hunted.

[Heckus]

That's why it's a variable point limitation now (as opposed to the old "10/15"). When you make the disad, you choose how limiting it will be. In the cases listed above I think Spider-man's Secret ID is worth more Cap's or the Flashes. Spider-Man has (had) a particular well-known wife, a job for a boss that specifically hates his alter ego (at least in the past), and a vulnerable Aunt. if his Secret ID is discovered there's a lot of peril involved. Cap has no one left alive after all these years and the Flash has no relatives of note and "being the Flash" wouldn't necessarily invalidate his day job (crime lab tech).

It's he difference between kid of limiting and extremely limiting on the value list.

Other examples of characters with No specific identity (IMO):

Red Tornado/ Vision (androids; occasionally they may dress up as humans but that's a disguise, not a sustained alter ego)
Swamp Thing/Man-Thing (peramently transform; they may have had a human persona in the past but they've changed and can never go back);
Darksied/Thanos (Alien entities; They don't pretend to be anyone else and knowing who they really are provides no advantage)
Hercules/Loki (Mythological creatures; they are the real deal, don't claim to be anyone else, and good luck going to their homes to kidnap their families)

Best example of a Public Identity (hands-down, IMO) is the Fantastic Four. They are celebrities, easily regonizable and the live in the big building downtown with the "4" on the roof. They also have children and loved ones that villains constantly take shots at.

As far as face recognition, that can vary greatly with the moment in the campaign and who is seeing you making it harder to quantify points-wise.

[Heckus]

Framed as physical limitation, say "Instantly Forgettable" I would say it would be All The Time and Slightly impairing. So that would make it worth15 points, with other points possibly available for Poor (can't hold a job after all) and the Psych limitation: "Lonely and wishes he could form relationships".

Of course, if some other person or thing is actively preventing people and data bases from remembering the character then it would be a Hunted.

There's a difference between being nobody special and being unrecognizable. This comes dangerously close to the perk "anonymity". Depending on the campaign, what you have described could be more of an advantage.

Pg. 78 revised 5th ed:

Cost: 3 or more Character Points
For many characters, a high degree of anonymity is
a valuable asset — what the authorities don’t know
about someone, they can’t use to catch him. With
the GM’s permission, characters can buy this Perk.
Anonymity means no offi cial or police records exist
regarding the character — or if they do exist, they
don’t contain any truly useful information.
If Anonymity is bought before a character has
the chance to establish a record for criminal, dissident,
rebel, or other illicit conduct, it costs 3 Character
Points. If purchased aft er the character has
attracted the attention of the authorities, it may cost
more than 3 points (possibly much more). Th e cost
depends upon how much information the authorities
have on the character and how damaging it is.
(Of course, the GM should not allow a PC to buy
this Perk aft er the game begins without running an
appropriate adventure to explain its eff ects.)
Like many Perks, Anonymity can be nullifi ed.
If the authorities acquire information about the
character aft er he purchases Anonymity, the eff ects
of the Perk are diminished or lost. In this case,
the character does not get the Character Points he
spent on Anonymity back — and if he wants to
preserve his Anonymity, he’ll have to purchase the
Perk again.

[ghost-angel]

Hmmm... then all of this sort of begs the question:

What would it be worth if you had No Identity?


No one knows you... at all.

There's no record of your birth... or death.

You're not in any system... anywhere.

... and there's nothing you can do to make it otherwise.

:eg:

Perk; Anonymity. 3+ Points.

I have a character with it at 10 Points. They have absolutely no trace of existence in the Games main universe of existence.

If there's a chance not being able to get even a Fake ID to work with will happen, Physical Limitation: Reality Keeps Erasing Me should be added on.

[Vulcan]

It's interesting how we're generally OK with the character losing points (picking up disad's) in play, but we'd never allow them to GAIN points (like contacts, favours or other perks) in play.

It would be nice to see this balanced out. Sure, you picked up Hunted-VIPER, but your public defeat of VIPER also picked you up a positive Reputation and some Favours from various people whose lives were saved or improved because you beat VIPER back.

Actually, I think the book encourages GM's to give just those sort of freebies out to players as they earn it. It's just that not that many GM's actually do so.

[Vulcan]

Framed as physical limitation, say "Instantly Forgettable" I would say it would be All The Time and Slightly impairing. So that would make it worth15 points, with other points possibly available for Poor (can't hold a job after all) and the Psych limitation: "Lonely and wishes he could form relationships".

Of course, if some other person or thing is actively preventing people and data bases from remembering the character then it would be a Hunted.

No, being 'instantly forgettable' is an advantage as well, and should be purchased with points, in addition to the deleterious effects mentioned. :D

Seriously, I'd add "Invisibilty, only to not be remembered (-1 at least)" to that guy. He's not actually invisible, but he tends to get overlooked and forgotten a lot. Which means the villians forget to attack him some of the time...

[Blue]

One of my main characters, Anthem, has never had a secret or public ID. (Technically before she was ported to Champions she had a secret ID, but that doesn't count for our purposes.)

Basically, she wasn't suffering any limitation in storyline about basically being someone available to the people in her apartment building, and yet not going around promoting herself actively, so it didn't make sense for her to take points for it.

[Cygnia]

Hrrm, I must have Anonymity since I mentioned it back in Msg #38 and no one commented on it then... :p

[The Hawk God]

No, being 'instantly forgettable' is an advantage as well, and should be purchased with points, in addition to the deleterious effects mentioned. :D

Seriously, I'd add "Invisibilty, only to not be remembered (-1 at least)" to that guy. He's not actually invisible, but he tends to get overlooked and forgotten a lot. Which means the villians forget to attack him some of the time...

In the Mage the Ascension game it was a background called Arcane. It pretty much made you hard to locate and added some to general stealth. So yeah, this is a perk or a power depending on how much omph you want your anonymity to have.

[Ranxerox]

No, being 'instantly forgettable' is an advantage as well, and should be purchased with points, in addition to the deleterious effects mentioned. :D

Seriously, I'd add "Invisibilty, only to not be remembered (-1 at least)" to that guy. He's not actually invisible, but he tends to get overlooked and forgotten a lot. Which means the villians forget to attack him some of the time...


In the Mage the Ascension game it was a background called Arcane. It pretty much made you hard to locate and added some to general stealth. So yeah, this is a perk or a power depending on how much omph you want your anonymity to have.

Yes, I agree and thought of this after I finished posting. Being "Instantly Forgettable" should cost points as well as give them. As to the power vr. perk question, I would say that depends on quickly people forget the character. If people chasing the character forget who they are chasing while they are still involved in the chase, I would call that a power. OTOH, if after the character successfully get away on his own they can't describe who they were chasing, that would be a perk.

[Karma]

I've been thinking about this and I'd make a hero with neither Secret or Public ID the equivelent of the real heroes in the real world. ie. police officers & fire fighters. These are guys that put their lives on the line to save people and property and apprehend criminals, just like Superheroes do. Some are even awarded medals for it. Thing is alot of people would have a hard time telling you, off the top of their heads, who the last cop or firefighter to get a medal in their city was. Sure that people he saved/criminals she apprehended might never forget them, and for a while they'll have people offeing them free food and stuff and saying 'good on you', but then something else 'newsworthy' happens and people tend to forget. If they don't do something 'medal-worthy' again then eventually they are just like every cop or firefighter, an everyday hero, but not someone that people know the name off automatically.

The same would be true of superheroes. They'll stop 'Evil Guy' or save the city and they'll get famous because of it. The media might lionise them, the mayor might hold a press conference, people might come up to them in the streets and say 'Hey aren't you Mega-man? Thanks for stopping Evil guy, that was cool.' However the next day the Champions are called on to save the city from Dr Destroyer or some such and that becomes upermost in peoples' mind. Sure the hostages you saved might keep sending you cookies and the teenage girl who was one of them might have a picture of you on her diary with a love heart around it, and you can be sure that Evil Guy won't forget you when he inevitably breaks out of jail, but the the populous at large you will be 'just another superhero protecting the city because it's what they do' (until you do something else that gets you public attention and lets face it Superheroes are more likely to do this, just because of how 'Super' their 'Heroics' are)

[ghost-angel]

That's a really excellent way of treating it.

[Fabricati]

I've been thinking about this and I'd make a hero with neither Secret or Public ID the equivelent of the real heroes in the real world. ie. police officers & fire fighters. These are guys that put their lives on the line to save people and property and apprehend criminals, just like Superheroes do. Some are even awarded medals for it. Thing is alot of people would have a hard time telling you, off the top of their heads, who the last cop or firefighter to get a medal in their city was. Sure that people he saved/criminals she apprehended might never forget them, and for a while they'll have people offeing them free food and stuff and saying 'good on you', but then something else 'newsworthy' happens and people tend to forget. If they don't do something 'medal-worthy' again then eventually they are just like every cop or firefighter, an everyday hero, but not someone that people know the name off automatically.

The same would be true of superheroes. They'll stop 'Evil Guy' or save the city and they'll get famous because of it. The media might lionise them, the mayor might hold a press conference, people might come up to them in the streets and say 'Hey aren't you Mega-man? Thanks for stopping Evil guy, that was cool.' However the next day the Champions are called on to save the city from Dr Destroyer or some such and that becomes upermost in peoples' mind. Sure the hostages you saved might keep sending you cookies and the teenage girl who was one of them might have a picture of you on her diary with a love heart around it, and you can be sure that Evil Guy won't forget you when he inevitably breaks out of jail, but the the populous at large you will be 'just another superhero protecting the city because it's what they do' (until you do something else that gets you public attention and lets face it Superheroes are more likely to do this, just because of how 'Super' their 'Heroics' are)

Remarkably good treatment. Repped.

[Wanderer]

I've been thinking about this and I'd make a hero with neither Secret or Public ID the equivelent of the real heroes in the real world. ie. police officers & fire fighters. These are guys that put their lives on the line to save people and property and apprehend criminals, just like Superheroes do. Some are even awarded medals for it. Thing is alot of people would have a hard time telling you, off the top of their heads, who the last cop or firefighter to get a medal in their city was. Sure that people he saved/criminals she apprehended might never forget them, and for a while they'll have people offeing them free food and stuff and saying 'good on you', but then something else 'newsworthy' happens and people tend to forget. If they don't do something 'medal-worthy' again then eventually they are just like every cop or firefighter, an everyday hero, but not someone that people know the name off automatically.

The same would be true of superheroes. They'll stop 'Evil Guy' or save the city and they'll get famous because of it. The media might lionise them, the mayor might hold a press conference, people might come up to them in the streets and say 'Hey aren't you Mega-man? Thanks for stopping Evil guy, that was cool.' However the next day the Champions are called on to save the city from Dr Destroyer or some such and that becomes upermost in peoples' mind. Sure the hostages you saved might keep sending you cookies and the teenage girl who was one of them might have a picture of you on her diary with a love heart around it, and you can be sure that Evil Guy won't forget you when he inevitably breaks out of jail, but the the populous at large you will be 'just another superhero protecting the city because it's what they do' (until you do something else that gets you public attention and lets face it Superheroes are more likely to do this, just because of how 'Super' their 'Heroics' are)

This is very interesting but only really works for street-level heroes a la Daredevil, or "city protector"-level heroes a la Spiderman. It does not really make sense for nation/world-protector-level heroes like the Avengers or JLA. Far too much media noticeability for them, even if there are several teams and not a few solo heroes of that power level. How would you treat them ?

[bubba smith]

Hmmm... then all of this sort of begs the question:

What would it be worth if you had No Identity?

No one knows you... at all.

There's no record of your birth... or death.

You're not in any system... anywhere.

... and there's nothing you can do to make it otherwise.
:eg:
sounds like the dark camps tas villian copycat,all record of his id were destroyed so nobody knew who he was

[Karma]

This is very interesting but only really works for street-level heroes a la Daredevil, or "city protector"-level heroes a la Spiderman. It does not really make sense for nation/world-protector-level heroes like the Avengers or JLA. Far too much media noticeability for them, even if there are several teams and not a few solo heroes of that power level. How would you treat them ?

My problem is with 'world saver' heroes having neither Secret ID or Public ID. Such people are going to pull a great deal of media attention and if they don't protect their ID they are going to get Public ID by default. I am wracking my brain on how someone who saves the world cannot become publicly know unless they do it secretly, either as 'Masked Hero' or 'Hero with this face'. The fact is the moment they beat off 'The Eater Of Worlds' in front of even one member of the public with a mobile phone (let alone an entire city with media etc.) everyone is going to know what they look-like. At that point not being recognized by every person who can see a T.V. or Paper is going to be almost impossible, and one of them is going to know you as 'Joe my work-mate' and one as 'Joe from down the hall' and unless they are atypical of most people they are going to call up the media and the next day's headline will be 'Mega-man's Identity Revealed' and include everything anyone knows about you. Why? Because the 'Public Wants to Know' (just as a celebrity, and some of them are only famous for one movie, Mega-man saved the world). Soon your every detail is on multitudes of websites as 'The guy who saved the world' (or at least one of them) and you have a Public ID.

I'd really like someone to come up with a 'neither' idea for world saving superheroes, that doesn't strain credibility (Yes I know we are in comics land where the laws of physics don't apply, but I'd like to suspend my belief, not hang it).

[Delthrien]

sounds like the dark camps tas villian copycat,all record of his id were destroyed so nobody knew who he was

Oddly enough, I was thinking a bit of a power from an RPG called Psi-world. The power was called "Forgotten" (I think... been many, *many* moons since I've looked through it). One could only remember he character with the power for as long as one spent time with him; after that, it was "sorry... no idea who he is..."

The character could be seen on video, and he certainly wasn't invisible, but the whole forgettable thing made it damned difficult to be able to relate to anyone. :)

Was treated both as a blessing and a curse, IIRC.

[Ice9]

I am wracking my brain on how someone who saves the world cannot become publicly know unless they do it secretly, either as 'Masked Hero' or 'Hero with this face'.
Well, it's not applicable to all heroes, but take for instance, an ultimate agent type. All records of his name have been erased from any database, he gets money from the agency and sleeps in hotels, and either he doesn't have surviving family or the agency keeps them protected. He might technically have a secret identity, but even if someone figured it out, they couldn't do much with it.

Another would be an alien superhero. All its friends are also superheroes and can protect themselves, it doesn't have a normal job or a house, and it can shapeshift or go hang out in space when it wants some privacy.

[Shadow Hawk]

A shapeshifter/master of disguise could easily have no identity.

[Fabricati]

I'd really like someone to come up with a 'neither' idea for world saving superheroes, that doesn't strain credibility (Yes I know we are in comics land where the laws of physics don't apply, but I'd like to suspend my belief, not hang it).

They could be like one team of mine- Yes, they ended up saving the world on national television from an alien invasion. But... And this is a big BUT-

Everyone had already been evacuated. In fact, the Nat'l Guard set up a battle line.

They just happened to teleport in behind enemy lines, too far for the cameras to get a good bead on them.

And the aliens enforced a rather rigorous no-fly zone. :sneaky:

Essentially, the team saved the world- is documented as having saved the world- and nobody really knows for sure who the team is.

Hell, half the time superheroes end up saving the world and no one ever knows about it- because it's deep beneath the earth, or out in space where no news camera can cover it, or somewhere no one else is willing to go (or might notice), like deep into the Amazon or lost in the Rockies or out near Everest.

It's the time when it's in the middle of a city that it strains disbelief. But then, so does starting your world takeover in an urban center...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Oddly enough, I was thinking a bit of a power from an RPG called Psi-world. The power was called "Forgotten" (I think... been many, *many* moons since I've looked through it). One could only remember he character with the power for as long as one spent time with him; after that, it was "sorry... no idea who he is..."

The character could be seen on video, and he certainly wasn't invisible, but the whole forgettable thing made it damned difficult to be able to relate to anyone. :)

Was treated both as a blessing and a curse, IIRC.

Heh, was just thinking about Psi-World. One of our first Espionage games was a conversion from Psi-World.

Props for the mention, brings back some fond memories :)

[JmOz]

Did not read the whole thread, but I would talk to the player a bit

If a character wanted to not take the disadvantage Secret ID, and still have a secret ID, I would be fine with it, it just means that the character has very little problems with it, they don't have people trying to find it out, and their is an old style phone booth near by all the time...

[Utech]

Some excellent points made so far. Just a couple of things...

Though this is by no means an exhaustive list, I'd say having neither Public ID

nor Secret ID can mean some of the following:
some/all of the character's significant others know that the character is a superhero and are willing to keep that a secret
the character has movement abilities (or Invisibility) that allow him to appear on the scene with ease -- and depart from it just as easily
through either passive or active means, the character can ensure that his superhero and civilian IDs are never connected
the character has a superhero form and personality so utterly removed from his civilian ID that no one is able to believe the two are one
everyone is well aware of who the hero is, but, due to fear/adoration/loathing/pity/respect no one wants to bother him

[KA.]

Did not read the whole thread, but I would talk to the player a bit

If a character wanted to not take the disadvantage Secret ID, and still have a secret ID, I would be fine with it, it just means that the character has very little problems with it, they don't have people trying to find it out, and their is an old style phone booth near by all the time...

Thank you for restating this.

I hope that the following does not come off as snarky, but the more I read this thread the more irritated I get.:mad:

There are two different concepts being used interchangeably here, and I, for one, do not believe them to be the same thing.

A character can have a secret ID:
Meaning that they wear a mask and do not tell people who they are
Nobody knows who they are, and unless there is a plot-specific reason for someone to learn, or attempt to learn, who they are, no one cares.

A character can have a public ID:
They do not wear a mask and people are able to recognize them.
They do not get sued all the time, or have mobs of fans descend on them in the middle of a fight, or have villains blow up their home every other day.

Why?
Because these are just ASPECTS OF THE CHARACTER!

Now if a person designs a character with the Secret ID DISADVANTAGE,
then that character is going to suffer from problems associated with having a Secret ID.
Why?
Because they took a DIASADVANTAGE in exchange for character points.

Think of it like this.
When you are designing a character's personality, you may decide that he is fairly patriotic, and generally kind-hearted, and doesn't really happen to like spiders all that much.
But those may just be flavor to differentiate the character from all the other drones with Armor, 15" of Flight and a 12d6 Energy Blast.

Unless you actually buy DISADVANTAGES like:
Psychological Limitation: Patriot, Common, Total - 20 points
Psychological Limitation: Kind Hearted, willing to sacrifice self to help others, Common, Total - 20 points
Psychological Limitation: Fear of Spiders, Common, Total - 20 points

Then it would not make sense, or be fair (in my opinion) if every other session the GM came up with things like:
"Well Captain Courageous, what are you going to do now?
The Anti-American just got finished bad mouthing the good old U.S.A.
You want to attack him, but out of the corner of your eye you notice that a boy scout is trying to pull himself free from the wreckage of a collapsed, abandoned tool shed.
You want to rescue him, but, you realize that the tool shed is no doubt the home of several poisonous Brown Recluse spiders.
Mwaaa Haa Haa!
Now make three Ego rolls at -3 or collapse in a heap due to the tremendous psychological pressure!"

If you don't take something as a Disadvantage, then generally speaking it should not have a major effect on your character.

I don't have a problem with virtually anything as a story arc.
Ex: Captain Hero foils a plot by Dr. Revenge to kill all the members of the jury that convicted him the first time. Dr. Revenge breaks out of prison and starts plotting his, well, revenge, on Captain Hero. But once that story is resolved, Dr. Revenge should not show up as a "Hunted, 15 or less" for Captain Hero.

By the same token, if a character does not buy the Public ID or Secret ID Disadvantage, then that does not mean that they are "invisible" or "don't exist", or that the GM gets to just tag them with one of those Disadvatages for free.
It just means that they choose (even if it is just as simple as wearing a mask or not) if they want a public ID or secret ID, and either way they don't have any particular problems in that area.

Any other treatment seems completely unfair to me.

What if you designed a character with few, if any, Psychological Limitations, and during the campaign the GM just decided that you were morbidly afraid of broccoli? And started using it as a major plot point in adventures?

What if the GM calmly informed you that your character just went Berserk and was now trying to kill his team-mates?

I can understand that a character might pick up a Hunted, if he declared war on some Villain or Organization, but other than that I don't like the idea of just "assigning" someone a Disadvantage that they didn't buy.

KA.

[DrunkonDUty]

Just about to start a new Champions campaign (my first in years!) Reading this thread I've decided to insist on characters taking either Public or Secret ID OR having very and full explanantion of why they've got neither and not likely to ever get one.

[ghost-angel]

Just about to start a new Champions campaign (my first in years!) Reading this thread I've decided to insist on characters taking either Public or Secret ID OR having very and full explanantion of why they've got neither and not likely to ever get one.

This is why I add one... because even if I don't want to game this aspect, just want to leave by the wayside and focus on other aspects - the GM is going attempt to screw over the character with it anyways because "they can't possibly fathom a reason why it shouldn't be there"

I'm getting with KA; this is getting stupid and I'm getting annoyed.

You can still have a secret ID but unless you take a Disad it doesn't hinder you and is just flavor.

[ghost-angel]

Some excellent points made so far. Just a couple of things...

Though this is by no means an exhaustive list, I'd say having neither Public ID

nor Secret ID can mean some of the following:
some/all of the character's significant others know that the character is a superhero and are willing to keep that a secret
the character has movement abilities (or Invisibility) that allow him to appear on the scene with ease -- and depart from it just as easily
through either passive or active means, the character can ensure that his superhero and civilian IDs are never connected
the character has a superhero form and personality so utterly removed from his civilian ID that no one is able to believe the two are one
everyone is well aware of who the hero is, but, due to fear/adoration/loathing/pity/respect no one wants to bother him


Actually.... it just means it doesn't Disadvantage you.
Never comes up. Never causes major issues. Not DISADVANTAGEOUS.

you can still have one, call it the same flavor as stating you have a fear of teddy bears but also didn't take that Disadvantage.

It really has no other implications, connotations, or other aspects.
No Disadvantage Taken = No Disadvantage Gained.

No explanation required.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm with the faction that states you only suffer drawbacks if you take the identity as a Disadvantage. If you want to reduce the frequency of the drawbacks, or their severity, you reduce the points taken for the disadvantage.

And if you want your character to be beloved by the masses because he doesn't hide behind a mask, you don't take a Public ID disadvantage - you take Public ID - Reputation +2d6 - The Hero who Doesn't Hide Behind a Mask. YOUR public ID is an advantage, not a disadvantage, because YOU defined it that way and paid for the benefits, rather than receiving points for the drawback.

[ghost-angel]

Exactly - define what drawbacks or benefits you want from it.

There don't HAVE to be any, it could be a wash - no Disadvantages and no Positive Reputations.

You can still have a Secret ID - not taking one doesn't mean you tell Aunt May you're Spider Man, it just means there's no disadvantage involved.

FORCING a player to take one because you the GM want can't fathom it not being a Disadvantage (versus just some background flavor of the character) is just bad GMing IMO.

[Cygnia]

Of course, I've had some GMs insist on the players taking Secret ID as one of their disads for their characters as part of the campaign guidelines.

[jwpacker]

Of course, I've had some GMs insist on the players taking Secret ID as one of their disads for their characters as part of the campaign guidelines.

And I think that's totally reasonable. In his or her world, there are no public superheroes, and he intends to make it part of the roleplaying to determine how they deal with the fact that nobody (or nearly nobody) knows who they really are.

In this case I was referencing in my OP, there was no mandate, and my character fit better without either. Given all that I've learned here, I'm going to press Zac to play along with the middle ground I've chosen, which is effectively secret identity, yet taking no pains to maintain it, and not expecting it to come up much in the game. He'll have plenty of fun with my two intersecting DNPCs to hose me without that. :)

[ghost-angel]

Of course, I've had some GMs insist on the players taking Secret ID as one of their disads for their characters as part of the campaign guidelines.

This isn't too much of a problem - it's stating that the GM will want to focus some story on the duality going on.

It's when there are no campaign guidelines and the player doesn't take one but the GM acts like its there anyways - that's a problem.

[KA.]

This isn't too much of a problem - it's stating that the GM will want to focus some story on the duality going on.

It's when there are no campaign guidelines and the player doesn't take one but the GM acts like its there anyways - that's a problem.

Exactly.
:thumbup:
KA.

[Utech]

No explanation required.

Certainly not! But -- as in the case of the OP -- there might be an explanation desired.

If not desired, you've got the right of things, hit the nail right on the head, and slam dunked it. :thumbup:

[sinanju]

I'm with the faction that states you only suffer drawbacks if you take the identity as a Disadvantage. If you want to reduce the frequency of the drawbacks, or their severity, you reduce the points taken for the disadvantage.

And if you want your character to be beloved by the masses because he doesn't hide behind a mask, you don't take a Public ID disadvantage - you take Public ID - Reputation +2d6 - The Hero who Doesn't Hide Behind a Mask. YOUR public ID is an advantage, not a disadvantage, because YOU defined it that way and paid for the benefits, rather than receiving points for the drawback.

Yeah. I think this whole argument is a subset of a larger point--which is that disadvantages are the player's way of saying "This is what I want to deal with when I play the character." Aside from that, issues of "realism" shouldn't come into it--any more than the "realism" of people who can fly, throw fireballs and see through walls....

Two players want to play the Spectacular Bug-Man (presumably in different campaigns). One player takes Secret ID, Hunted, Reputation: Menace. He clearly wants to play a character like Spider-Man. He expects (even wants) to deal with threats to his secret ID, hostile bystanders, cops trying to arrest him, seeing his name smeared in the papers, etc.

The other player takes Psych: Protective of Innocents and Rep: Friendly Neighborhood Bug-Man. He clearly wants to be viewed as a HERO, rather like Superman (albeit on a smaller scale).

They can both have a secret identity in-game, but only one character should have to be constantly explaining away his suspicious disappearances, missed dates/appointments, and so forth. The other Bug-Man also has a secret ID, but he doesn't have to work hard to maintain it. He just doesn't. It's not what his story is ABOUT.

[Ranxerox]

Exactly - define what drawbacks or benefits you want from it.

There don't HAVE to be any, it could be a wash - no Disadvantages and no Positive Reputations.

You can still have a Secret ID - not taking one doesn't mean you tell Aunt May you're Spider Man, it just means there's no disadvantage involved.

FORCING a player to take one because you the GM want can't fathom it not being a Disadvantage (versus just some background flavor of the character) is just bad GMing IMO.

Can't fathom? WTH? So anyone who doesn't agree with you on this just doesn't get it because of their intellectual inferiority?

Sorry, generally speaking in world's I GM when something get broken someone out there starts looking for someone to sue. PO Viper too many times and they will starting looking for revenge, and they won't hesitate about going after friends and family to get it.

Now, I mentioned Wolverine as someone who had neither the disadvantage Secret ID or Public ID, and I agree that Dr. Strange and some other characters fall into the same bag. So, I do see how this can reasonably work. However, both Wolverine and Dr. Strange have rather unique personal lives that facilitate them not having to worry about keeping their identity secret or experiencing the problems of a public ID. I don't think that I am being unreasonable in asking my players to explaining how their characters avoid the standard problems associated with secret and public IDs if they elect to have neither (or explaining anything else about their characters that I have questions about).

Now, if your mileage varies on this, that is fine. Just don't tell me that I am being a bad GM for seeing things differently.

[ghost-angel]

You missed. . .

Just because they do not write "Secret ID" or "Public ID" written down on the Disadvantage Column of their character sheet does not mean they don't have one.

It just means it's not a Disadvantage to any significant degree.

I had a character once - Rebar. Wore a mask and everything to hide his face - that's a secret identity in that he doesn't want his face on the news when the film crews capture him rescuing people from the burning building. But - I never wrote down "Secret ID - Hank Wallace" on his Character Sheet. It never cause significant issues for him to switch from Hank to Rebar. It wasn't a Disadvantage =/= It Doesn't Exist.

So yes, if you think not putting it on the sheet means the Player doesn't have or maintain one then you are being a bad GM.
Not putting one down on the sheet as a Disadvantage means just that - it's not a Disadvantage.
As I said above, if you set a Campaign Parameter that one is required because part of the Campaigns Stories will focus on the duality of Superhero vs Normal Lives, that's a different issue.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sorry, generally speaking in world's I GM when something get broken someone out there starts looking for someone to sue. PO Viper too many times and they will starting looking for revenge, and they won't hesitate about going after friends and family to get it.

Now, I mentioned Wolverine as someone who had neither the disadvantage Secret ID or Public ID, and I agree that Dr. Strange and some other characters fall into the same bag. So, I do see how this can reasonably work. However, both Wolverine and Dr. Strange have rather unique personal lives

So it's their lack of a DNPC that makes them require no Secret or Public ID? If I take one disadvantage, I get a second one for free? If I take no DNPC's and a Secret ID, you just start creating DNPC's for me so VIPER can go after them?

I guess my best approach in your game is to take the Secret ID, and some DNPC's. If I'm going to get the hassles anyway, I may as well get the points, and have less disadvantages in other areas that you won't impose on me whether you gave me points for them or not.

[Peregrine]

Yeah. I think this whole argument is a subset of a larger point--which is that disadvantages are the player's way of saying "This is what I want to deal with when I play the character."

<snip>

... It's not what his story is ABOUT.

*bing-bing-bing-bing* We have a winnah!

It's not about representing reality to the Nth degree. It's about telling a story.

[Ranxerox]

You missed. . .

Just because they do not write "Secret ID" or "Public ID" written down on the Disadvantage Column of their character sheet does not mean they don't have one.

It just means it's not a Disadvantage to any significant degree.

I had a character once - Rebar. Wore a mask and everything to hide his face - that's a secret identity in that he doesn't want his face on the news when the film crews capture him rescuing people from the burning building. But - I never wrote down "Secret ID - Hank Wallace" on his Character Sheet. It never cause significant issues for him to switch from Hank to Rebar. It wasn't a Disadvantage =/= It Doesn't Exist.

So yes, if you think not putting it on the sheet means the Player doesn't have or maintain one then you are being a bad GM.
Not putting one down on the sheet as a Disadvantage means just that - it's not a Disadvantage.
As I said above, if you set a Campaign Parameter that one is required because part of the Campaigns Stories will focus on the duality of Superhero vs Normal Lives, that's a different issue.

My campaigns don't focus on on the duality of Superhero vs Normal lives per se. They focus (amongst other things) on superheroes in a world that with the exception of possessing superheroes is pretty much like the one that we live in. The notion of either a zero point Secret ID or zero point Public ID just doesn't work in my worlds. The rub of realism against superhero fantasy just has too much friction for the identity not to be an issue that players have to deal with ... unless there is something specific about that character that makes the point moot.

[Ranxerox]

So it's their lack of a DNPC that makes them require no Secret or Public ID? If I take one disadvantage, I get a second one for free? If I take no DNPC's and a Secret ID, you just start creating DNPC's for me so VIPER can go after them?

I guess my best approach in your game is to take the Secret ID, and some DNPC's. If I'm going to get the hassles anyway, I may as well get the points, and have less disadvantages in other areas that you won't impose on me whether you gave me points for them or not.

My spidey sense tells me that your tongue is in your cheek, but I am going to answer this as though it were a serious question. DNPCs are a totally separate disadvantage from public or secret ID. Whether the character has a public or secret ID, he or she going to have to jump through hoops to keep them safe whenever the disadvantage comes up. So they earn there points one way or another.

That being said, whether a character has a Secret ID or Public ID does effect how he or she interacts with his or her DNPCs and how the rest of the world does too. It is the difference between Lois Lane getting herself into trouble vs Lex Luthor taking her captive to bait a trap for Superman. The latter situation is generally much worse, and that is why those pesky hunted are worth more points when the character has a public ID.

The worst situation though is a secret ID that is blown and now public. The consequences for this have to be so bad that all the work and lies and embarrassment of maintaining that secret ID now seem like a bargain compared to the consequences of letting it slip. Essentially all DNPCs are now in play whether they rolled for that adventure or not, and non-DNPC acquaintances of the character can start acting like DNPCs. Also hunted that weren't rolled can also come up, and other nasty things arise such as scathing exposes, lawsuits, etc.

Fortunately, all my players have known me well enough not test me on the Secret ID thing, and none of them have outed themselves.

[Shadow Hawk]

The whole thing... going from no id to secret or public... should be based on player actions, with fair warning given. A player should make a concious decision, not have the GM decide behind his back. A simple "Hey, you're risking making your ID public" works.

Also, I do 'point balancing'. Just as I require them to pay in points for that Viper blaster they want to carry around now, I as GM must 'give them' points for when they go from no ID to public. Hmmm, outed yourself? Well, guess what... those hunteds you have are drop from 11 or less to 8 or less. That DNPC brother in law is going to avoid you, dropping his occurrance to zero. Or whatever it takes to rebalance your disadvantages.

Summery: it's player's choice after fair warning, and disads are rebalanced to account for it.

[Great Beyond]

It's the time when it's in the middle of a city that it strains disbelief. But then, so does starting your world takeover in an urban center...

Pfft - never watch Doctor Who? *ALL* alien invasions always take place in urban settings! And always in england!

[Cygnia]

Pfft - never watch Doctor Who? *ALL* alien invasions always take place in urban settings! And always in england!

What?! You mean anime lied to me about all alien invasions taking place in Tokyo then?!

[sinanju]

Pfft - never watch Doctor Who? *ALL* alien invasions always take place in urban settings! And always in england!

I have to admit...when I first started watching Doctor Who (the Eccleston/Piper duo), that was kinda weird. I've spent my whole life watching mostly American media where the threats almost always occur in the USA. It was pretty strange to see England (and London in particular) as the focus of all the action instead of NYC or LA.

[bigbywolfe]

And I think that's totally reasonable. In his or her world, there are no public superheroes, and he intends to make it part of the roleplaying to determine how they deal with the fact that nobody (or nearly nobody) knows who they really are.
In this case I was referencing in my OP, there was no mandate, and my character fit better without either. Given all that I've learned here, I'm going to press Zac to play along with the middle ground I've chosen, which is effectively secret identity, yet taking no pains to maintain it, and not expecting it to come up much in the game. He'll have plenty of fun with my two intersecting DNPCs to hose me without that.

You might want to have Zac actually read the Champions book. Particularly page 48 and page 68. The book actually says if all of your DNPCs know who you are, or if you have no loved ones, and your job isn’t an inconvenience, then you are getting extra points for free and should be forced to buy off the Disad. Remember, a Disadvantage that doesn’t disadvantage you is not worth any points. If your GM is going to force you to roleplay Secret ID issues often, even though you don’t want to, he is either not doing a good job as a GM or, at the very least, is not explaining what he expects of you or the campaign very well.


Can't fathom? WTH? So anyone who doesn't agree with you on this just doesn't get it because of their intellectual inferiority?

I have trouble understanding why a GM would force issues on players that they really don't want to play. Doesn't sound like a fun way to start a campaign to me. If you think those issues have to be part of the campaign, then that should be pre-established. I can't fathom punishing a player for not having super crazy inconvenience issues built into their character.



Sorry, generally speaking in world's I GM when something get broken someone out there starts looking for someone to sue. PO Viper too many times and they will starting looking for revenge, and they won't hesitate about going after friends and family to get it.

Now, I mentioned Wolverine as someone who had neither the disadvantage Secret ID or Public ID, and I agree that Dr. Strange and some other characters fall into the same bag. So, I do see how this can reasonably work. However, both Wolverine and Dr. Strange have rather unique personal lives that facilitate them not having to worry about keeping their identity secret or experiencing the problems of a public ID. I don't think that I am being unreasonable in asking my players to explaining how their characters avoid the standard problems associated with secret and public IDs if they elect to have neither (or explaining anything else about their characters that I have questions about).

Now, if your mileage varies on this, that is fine. Just don't tell me that I am being a bad GM for seeing things differently.

“Sorry, generally speaking in world's I GM when something get broken someone out there starts looking for someone to sue.” And that’s fine as long as the players understand that BEFORE engaging in the campaign. In fact having an ID related Social Disadvantage should probably be mentioned in the campaign guidelines. And yes, if a GM doesn’t establish that ahead of time, and then punishes players who didn’t take one by giving them the exact same problems as thought that did, then that is a very bad GM.


My campaigns don't focus on on the duality of Superhero vs Normal lives per se. They focus (amongst other things) on superheroes in a world that with the exception of possessing superheroes is pretty much like the one that we live in. The notion of either a zero point Secret ID or zero point Public ID just doesn't work in my worlds. The rub of realism against superhero fantasy just has too much friction for the identity not to be an issue that players have to deal with ... unless there is something specific about that character that makes the point moot.

You seem to not be able to understand that not having a Secret ID Disadvantage does not necessarily mean you don’t have a secret ID, it just means that the player does not want to have to constantly focus on that as part of their game every darn session. I guess in your campaign that really might not work, but you seem to imply that it won’t work in any campaign, which just isn’t true.

[Ranxerox]

I have trouble understanding why a GM would force issues on players that they really don't want to play. Doesn't sound like a fun way to start a campaign to me. If you think those issues have to be part of the campaign, then that should be pre-established. I can't fathom punishing a player for not having super crazy inconvenience issues built into their character.



“Sorry, generally speaking in world's I GM when something get broken someone out there starts looking for someone to sue.” And that’s fine as long as the players understand that BEFORE engaging in the campaign. In fact having an ID related Social Disadvantage should probably be mentioned in the campaign guidelines. And yes, if a GM doesn’t establish that ahead of time, and then punishes players who didn’t take one by giving them the exact same problems as thought that did, then that is a very bad GM.



You seem to not be able to understand that not having a Secret ID Disadvantage does not necessarily mean you don’t have a secret ID, it just means that the player does not want to have to constantly focus on that as part of their game every darn session. I guess in your campaign that really might not work, but you seem to imply that it won’t work in any campaign, which just isn’t true.

Dude, you are making too many assumptions about my GMing. I give new players plenty of information about what they can expect in one of my campaigns both at the outset and as they work on making their characters. Also, I tend to drop pretty strong hints when they are about to cut their own throats, such as, "Hey are you sure you want to do that? You aren't in your costume and a number of people can see you right now."

Not sure how I was implying that a zero point Secret ID would not work in any campaign. I said "in worlds that I GM" and "My campaigns ... focus"* so I don't see these statements as generalizations meant to apply all campaigns. Still, I will say it explicitly now, zero point secret and public IDs are totally appropriate in some campaigns and should be available on a case by case basis in others.

* - emphasis not original post added for clarification here

[Zac]

You might want to have Zac actually read the Champions book. Particularly page 48 and page 68.

Please, don't make assumptions about my knowledge. I don't assume to know anything about your knowledge or your manners. Asking anyone to ask someone else about something when that someone else is present is childish to the nth degree. My 5 year old daughter does that when she is upset with one of her friends. "Dad, tell Tina that I am not her friend." Tina looks at my daughter and then me, "Well, you tell her...", I throw up my hands and tell them to settle it amongst themselves. I really don't want to liken anyone on this board to getting upset that a friend pushed them down the slide, sat in their place at the lunch table or dropped their doll in the mud on the playground. If you want to tell me something, tell me.

I think jwpacker's original question to the board was pretty straight forward. He wanted to get other peoples opinions. However, jwpacker has not asked me about this yet. To be honest, I don't think alot about disads a player did not take. I don't have a loads of free time and spending it on non-productive ponderings does little good. He may never ask. If he did ask, then I would tell him....

For "my" game, not taking a disad means its not a disad. It does not matter what it is.

[The following may come across as lippy, not my intent. Just an example.]
We can play what if with this all day long: Secret ID, DNPC, Psych Lims, Hunteds, etc. What if I have a player who has a very large family, owns a business, has hundreds of employees and wants to take a DNPC of a childhood friend. Fine, one DNPC. They can roleplay their interaction with their co-workers, relatives and internet dating club BUT the only DNPC is the childhood friend. Want to see how this passes the test: insert another disad in its place. Player did not take a Psych Lim: Fear of Heights, I am not going to put the screws to him when he is fighting on top of the Empire State Building. Player did not take a susceptibility salt water, then the only thing he has to worry about when fighting Aquaguy on the beach is getting sand kicked in his face.

I think the Secret ID, Public ID, No ID, Obscured ID has become overly clouded (but interesting reading). Individual GMs have the final say in their campaign. If they want players to pick, then players pick. If GMs don't care one way or the other, cool. If a GM does not specify and then they put the screws to the player, that may make them a bad GM. However, it could just as likely be they are an inexperienced GM. It is really a shame that so many posters wade in with the Bad GM Hammer, evidently having completely forgotten what is was like to be a New or Inexperienced GM. It is one thing to read boxed text from a prepared adventure and another to make an adventure (or campaign) from scratch. There is a learning curve there that only comes from doing (just like role playing). I guess so many have been railroaded by GMs who think it they are actually competing against the players or GMs think that role playing just means large rewards (Monty Haul), those players have forgotten the excitement of the game. These kinds of players usual become sycophantic point mongers and rules lawyers unless they get a steady diet of good GMs and a true gaming community. Endlessly arguing about the best possible builds or holding a game up for hours and hours while they stroke the point of a particular nuiance of the rules. Alas, don't dispair. There is hope for such lost gamers. They just need to seek out a good community and, with therapy, they can come around to becoming productive Players/GMs once again. [Ok, that last bit was lippy. I admit it!]

The rest of the post to jwpacker I "assume" was directed to me. But, since I don't feel like trading snarky innunedos, I am dropping the ball here.

[bigbywolfe]

Please, don't make assumptions about my knowledge. I don't assume to know anything about your knowledge or your manners. Asking anyone to ask someone else about something when that someone else is present is childish to the nth degree. My 5 year old daughter does that when she is upset with one of her friends. "Dad, tell Tina that I am not her friend." Tina looks at my daughter and then me, "Well, you tell her...", I throw up my hands and tell them to settle it amongst themselves. I really don't want to liken anyone on this board to getting upset that a friend pushed them down the slide, sat in their place at the lunch table or dropped their doll in the mud on the playground. If you want to tell me something, tell me.


I did not know you were present. I don’t know who you are. I didn’t even know “Zac” was someone on this forum and not just the name of his GM who may or may not have anything to do with the online community. I see you did post something in this thread almost 2 weeks ago. Sorry I didn’t remember that by the time I responded to the OPs last post. Looking back at your posts it seems as if we pretty much agree, so I’m not sure why your getting bent out of shape, since most of my arguments would not apply to you. If you and I disagreed strongly and if I had known you were the GM in question and that you were in fact present, I would have told you to read those passages.


I think jwpacker's original question to the board was pretty straight forward. He wanted to get other peoples opinions. However, jwpacker has not asked me about this yet. To be honest, I don't think alot about disads a player did not take. I don't have a loads of free time and spending it on non-productive ponderings does little good. He may never ask. If he did ask, then I would tell him....

Maybe he never asked you, but he said: “I'm going to press Zac to play along with the middle ground I've chosen, which is effectively secret identity, yet taking no pains to maintain it, and not expecting it to come up much in the game.”
The need to “press” the GM to “play along” with not having any ID related Disads implies that the GM is leaning one way or has already made a decision (or that he assumes you will feel that way). Further more, you are posting in the thread where he asked the question. Why don’t you just answer him? I mean he asked the community at large, but he is obviously concerned about it because of the game he is going to be playing in, your game, and you know that.

Also, no one asked you to or expects you to waste time on “non-productive pondering”.


For "my" game, not taking a disad means its not a disad. It does not matter what it is.

That’s my view too. See, we agree. Yay!


[The following may come across as lippy, not my intent. Just an example.]
We can play what if with this all day long: Secret ID, DNPC, Psych Lims, Hunteds, etc. What if I have a player who has a very large family, owns a business, has hundreds of employees and wants to take a DNPC of a childhood friend. Fine, one DNPC. They can roleplay their interaction with their co-workers, relatives and internet dating club BUT the only DNPC is the childhood friend. Want to see how this passes the test: insert another disad in its place. Player did not take a Psych Lim: Fear of Heights, I am not going to put the screws to him when he is fighting on top of the Empire State Building. Player did not take a susceptibility salt water, then the only thing he has to worry about when fighting Aquaguy on the beach is getting sand kicked in his face.

I think the Secret ID, Public ID, No ID, Obscured ID has become overly clouded (but interesting reading). Individual GMs have the final say in their campaign. If they want players to pick, then players pick. If GMs don't care one way or the other, cool. If a GM does not specify and then they put the screws to the player, that may make them a bad GM. However, it could just as likely be they are an inexperienced GM. It is really a shame that so many posters wade in with the Bad GM Hammer, evidently having completely forgotten what is was like to be a New or Inexperienced GM. It is one thing to read boxed text from a prepared adventure and another to make an adventure (or campaign) from scratch. There is a learning curve there that only comes from doing (just like role playing). I guess so many have been railroaded by GMs who think it they are actually competing against the players or GMs think that role playing just means large rewards (Monty Haul), those players have forgotten the excitement of the game. These kinds of players usual become sycophantic point mongers and rules lawyers unless they get a steady diet of good GMs and a true gaming community. Endlessly arguing about the best possible builds or holding a game up for hours and hours while they stroke the point of a particular nuiance of the rules. Alas, don't dispair. There is hope for such lost gamers. They just need to seek out a good community and, with therapy, they can come around to becoming productive Players/GMs once again. [Ok, that last bit was lippy. I admit it!]

The rest of the post to jwpacker I "assume" was directed to me. But, since I don't feel like trading snarky innunedos, I am dropping the ball here.

Um, wow. Actually, my entire post to jwpacker was aimed at jwpacker. As I said before, I didn’t even realize who you were or that you were here. I was, in fact, trying to answer the OP, by pointing out the fact that question he asked is answered in the book.

As far as snarky innuendo I don’t believe I aimed any at you, especially not intentionally. You seem to have been personally offended by things I said to two different people, not to you. Sorry I accidentally offended you by answering a question and wading into an argument with somewhat entrenched viewpoints.

[Zac]

I did not know you were present. I don’t know who you are. I didn’t even know “Zac” was someone on this forum and not just the name of his GM who may or may not have anything to do with the online community. I see you did post something in this thread almost 2 weeks ago. Sorry I didn’t remember that by the time I responded to the OPs last post. Looking back at your posts it seems as if we pretty much agree, so I’m not sure why your getting bent out of shape, since most of my arguments would not apply to you. If you and I disagreed strongly and if I had known you were the GM in question and that you were in fact present, I would have told you to read those passages.



Maybe he never asked you, but he said: “I'm going to press Zac to play along with the middle ground I've chosen, which is effectively secret identity, yet taking no pains to maintain it, and not expecting it to come up much in the game.”
The need to “press” the GM to “play along” with not having any ID related Disads implies that the GM is leaning one way or has already made a decision (or that he assumes you will feel that way). Further more, you are posting in the thread where he asked the question. Why don’t you just answer him? I mean he asked the community at large, but he is obviously concerned about it because of the game he is going to be playing in, your game, and you know that.

Also, no one asked you to or expects you to waste time on “non-productive pondering”.



That’s my view too. See, we agree. Yay!



Um, wow. Actually, my entire post to jwpacker was aimed at jwpacker. As I said before, I didn’t even realize who you were or that you were here. I was, in fact, trying to answer the OP, by pointing out the fact that question he asked is answered in the book.

As far as snarky innuendo I don’t believe I aimed any at you, especially not intentionally. You seem to have been personally offended by things I said to two different people, not to you. Sorry I accidentally offended you by answering a question and wading into an argument with somewhat entrenched viewpoints.

I took your midwording and wish to redact my "snarky" statements. No offense taken and I hope none were in kind. If so, my sincerest appologies.