Evaluation on an ability: Bounce Back

[incrdbil]

Bounce Back: +10 STUN (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only counts as stun when character goes below -10 Stun. Cannot bring character to consciousness. Cannot be recovered until all normal stun is recovered; -1) 5 points

Too much of a good thing?

Ok for a street level game?

Ok for a standard to hi-power game?

Basic effect its hard to keep a character down, they start the process of recover quickly.

[Shoutybloke]

So when he's at -9 stun, he's at -9 but when he's at -10 stun he's at 0?

Yeah, that's not going to get past the prohibition on "any power likely to make the GM's head asplode" in my games, sorry

[AnotherSkip]

Unless there is some sort sub rule I am not aware of buy more recovery with a limitation (like, only works when below 0 Stun) so that you automatically get to take advantage of the recovery from being stunned as well as boost your stun and End back up.

[Split Decision]

No, I don't see a problem with this mechanically or thematically. But it would be annoying.

[Certified]

If I understand this power correctly it keeps the character from being truly knocked out unless there is a major hit and puts them at the 1 Recovery needed stage to get back into the fight. If anything I would supplement this with some limited Recovery with those same conditions, must be below 1 Stun and above -11. This would simulate the character taking a hit that would daze them then jumping right back into the action. Although I can see this power working in a supers campaign I think it would fit nicely into a Pulp Hero character.

[Hugh Neilson]

All it does, as I read it, is allow the character to recover every phase at STUN of 0 to -19, after which he recovers every turn to -29, every minute to -39 and GM discretion at -40. He's increased all the thresholds by 10 points.

I don't think it's a gamebreaker, but it could be very annoying taken to extremes, especially if the result is all the other players sitting around watching one guy who can't seem to be KO'd. At 10 points, I don't see it as a major issue.

[Killer Shrike]

I see what youre going for, War-Man (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/War-Man%20(Blaster).HTML) has a similar but less limited ability...the "Against All Odds" suite of powers.

But I'd recommend you try a triggered Aid instead:

Major Savage (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Major%20Savage.HTML) has such an ability...the "Bio-Monitor".

Agent X (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Agent%20X.HTML) has a similar (better) ability...the "Adrenal Boost".

[Log-Man]

I don't object to the effect, but mechanically it seems there's got to be a cleaner way to do it. Triggered Aid may be the right way to go.

[BNakagawa]

What I object to is the effect on the culture of the game.

The spirit of traditional 4 color champions is that you don't beat on unconscious opponents. With this ability, people are going to have to start stomping on the fallen to make sure they don't get back into the fight.

$0.02

[Log-Man]

What I object to is the effect on the culture of the game.

The spirit of traditional 4 color champions is that you don't beat on unconscious opponents. With this ability, people are going to have to start stomping on the fallen to make sure they don't get back into the fight.

$0.02In my experience that is already the case for many players.

[mattingly]

I've used this build before, for speedsters and high-recoverers. It lets them recover "one level higher," and never caused a problem in the games I've played it in.

[incrdbil]

What I object to is the effect on the culture of the game.

The spirit of traditional 4 color champions is that you don't beat on unconscious opponents. With this ability, people are going to have to start stomping on the fallen to make sure they don't get back into the fight.

$0.02

Well, I'm not in many 4 color games right now. the ability isn't a general use one, more intended for super-tough/regenerative types whose schtick is healing fast, coming back fast.

The intent of the power (poorly worded through the limitation) was meant to keep the recovery rate for the character as if they had 10 more stun that what their actual level was--it really didn't add on to stun (hence the part about not bringing you conscious)--and to further restrict it I included the limitation on having to recover back to 'full' stun before getting any use from this ability again.

[Marketeer]

I like the mechanic; it seems clear to me what it does.

I do think that, depending on the genre, it gives characters strong motivations to attack foes while they are already down--both on the PC side and on the NPC side.

As long as the GM does not make this kind of ability too common, it should not be a problem, but I would watch it more for its impact on campaign tone than for its own sake.

[BNakagawa]

Well, I'm not in many 4 color games right now. the ability isn't a general use one, more intended for super-tough/regenerative types whose schtick is healing fast, coming back fast.

The intent of the power (poorly worded through the limitation) was meant to keep the recovery rate for the character as if they had 10 more stun that what their actual level was--it really didn't add on to stun (hence the part about not bringing you conscious)--and to further restrict it I included the limitation on having to recover back to 'full' stun before getting any use from this ability again.

The natural assumption is to evaluate the power in the context of a 4 color superhero game because this is, after all, the champions forum.

If you wanted the ability evaluated in the generic sense of how it fits in with the hero system, there's a place for that.

[incrdbil]

The natural assumption is to evaluate the power in the context of a 4 color superhero game because this is, after all, the champions forum.

If you wanted the ability evaluated in the generic sense of how it fits in with the hero system, there's a place for that.


I'm more often in middle of the road super-hero games. Anyway, the power is mainly for the use for certain player character power set, or very special super-tough villains, the kind so tough you have to Hot sleep them. (Grond, for example.) It wouldn't be something you'ld ever see on minions/mooks.

[Hugh Neilson]

I like the mechanic; it seems clear to me what it does.

I do think that, depending on the genre, it gives characters strong motivations to attack foes while they are already down--both on the PC side and on the NPC side.

That issue already exists, and I have a pretty easy fix. If we assume that being at -0 to -9 STUN (or any level where you may recover every phase) is functionally equivalent to being Stunned, it largely solves the "beat them while they're down" issue.

Benny the Brute takes a hit leaving him at -5 STUN, but takes no knockback? He's standing there, dazed but does not fall down. The next hit
will likely KO him, and there's nothing "unheroic" in making that next hit, any more than it's unheroic to hit a Stunned target.

If he falls down after the hit, he's at -10 or lower, so he's at least down to 1 recovery per turn.

[Hugh Neilson]

5ER pg 441, 3rd paragraph under "Knockout":

"If a character is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), he's not completely unconcious -- in fact, it's more like he's deeply Stunned. Depending on the character and the nature of the attack, he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack..."

I've used this to good effect, having foes drop to one knee or stagger several steps backward while shaking their head to try and clear it. It works better in Heroic games where you're not using the Knockback rules since targets are less likely to fall over from impact alone. However, mooks generally go straight to KOed even if they're only -1 STUN and don't get recoveries.

There's the answer to "hit them when they're down". They aren't down yet.

[BNakagawa]

There's the answer to "hit them when they're down". They aren't down yet.

Too bad his force field drops when he isn't 'down'.

splat.

[Netzilla]

Too bad his force field drops when he isn't 'down'.

splat.

His FF drops when he's Stunned (and not 'down') as well.

[bigbywolfe]

And unless it has Invisible Power Effect then the PCs are going to SEE that his FF is down, whether he's "not KO'd but sort of KO'd" or just "regular Con stunned".

[lemming]

What I object to is the effect on the culture of the game.

The spirit of traditional 4 color champions is that you don't beat on unconscious opponents. With this ability, people are going to have to start stomping on the fallen to make sure they don't get back into the fight.

$0.02

I prefer the hand wave "finished off" for cases like that. There are exceptions of course.

I had a PC with a similar ability, though it was a modified Regen (4th edition), 10 points and she'd regen a stun pip each round. She'd wake up faster, but not significantly. I think in the 2 year campaign she was in, it made a difference twice.