Martial Arts for Warriors

[slikmar]

Just a question for all you experienced GMs of Fantasy Hero. Do you regularly allow characters to buy martial art maneuvers straight from the book to use with weapons, or do you find it a little to potent for a normal Fantasy Campaign (mine will be 75+50, with a potential +25 for racial stuff).
I am starting a campaign this weekend and have been debating whether to allow the use of Martial arts as they are in FReD and UMA, since i fear the ocv/dcv bonuses might be a little to overbalancing.
Opinions Welcome

[Talon]

Depends on your game. I find them overpowerful (same with Deadly Blow from FH). OTOH, if your mages are going to be tossing around 3-4d6 KAs, the warriors might need this stuff just to keep up.

[CrosshairCollie]

I, personally, never had any problem with it. Weapon damage still tops out at double the base DC, and I didn't allow extra 'martial arts damage classes', so things stayed pretty sane. Of course, nobody tried this with a greatsword or greataxe (we had a fencer-style 'swashbuckler' and a whip-wielding duelist), so I'm not sure if it gets obnoxious with heavier weapons. It was a must for unarmed fighters, of course.

Of course, I'm generally of the opinion that the PCs will, inevitably, start to creep up in power as they gain XP ... that's just the way things go. As they start to creep up, your opposition must become more dangerous to keep them challenged.

[RDU Neil]

From back in the day of Danger International... ported this basic concept over to ANY Heroic level game.

Instead of +2DC and +4DC on most maneuvers, cut 'em in half.

Martial punch only as +1DC, and Offensive strike only adds +2DC... it brings the power levels down to the more "realisitic" levels, but gives the same pluses and minuses, etc. I found this very effective for maintaining balance in lower powered games, but at the same time, offering a benefit to those who spent the points to be a trained fighter, rather than just a brawler.

YMMV (and no, I didn't give them a price cut on the maneuvers, either.)

[slikmar]

Actually, the damage wasnt what i was worried about, as i dont mind a little lethality in the game and weapons have a built in maximum of double damage classes anyway. my question, and worry, is the ocv/dcv bonuses martial arts gain - even in superpowered gains these can be unbalancing, but in a game where the average dex ranges from 15 - 20 (i.e. 5-7 ocv/dcv) and speeds are 2-4, the large bonuses to these from MA maneuvers can be drastic. A plus 2 or 3 to ocv or dcv in a 3d6 system (though i may use a 2d10 system to smooth out the curve) can swing the balance greatly.
On the other hand, it is also the easiest way to give PC's and Leader NPC's an advantage over the common thug, soldier, etc.
Thank you all for your input so far. I may use them as a test, and figure i can back them off if necessary.

[Nightshade]

I allow the martial maneuvers as written, as it gives a way for the fighter types to keep up with the magic-users. Of course, I have an epic game, so it suits my needs. If you don't want to do that, just allow the combat skill levels.

Nightshade

[Roland]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
Instead of +2DC and +4DC on most maneuvers, cut 'em in half.

The damage bonus is already halved when applied to killing attacks, which would cover most weapon attacks in FH.

I don't see that martial arts maneuvers result in any more power than the same number of points spent on CSLs. A particular maneuver might give slightly higher bonuses or a useful maneuver element, but it is also less flexible than a CSL.

For instance, my FH character has a martial art (created by the GM) that includes four maneuvers: Fast Strike (+2 OCV, +2 DC), Passing Strike (FM, +1 OCV, +v/5 DC), Flying Dodge (FM, Abort), and Martial Disarm (+10 STR), all useable with all common melee weapons. His two attacks make him quite powerful offensively. Unfortunately, neither of his attacks provides a DCV bonus. Moreover, the required skills of his order were so expensive that it did not leave him any points to spend on CSLs.

If he had spent the 25 points on CSLs instead of martial arts (and a complementary KS), he could have 5 HTH levels or 3 all-combat levels. He would lose the Full-Move element distinctive of his order's fighting style, but he would be no less formidable, all-around, in combat with the CSLs instead of martial arts.

[Citizen Keen]

What does YMMV mean?

[Nightshade]

Your Milage May Vary

Nightshade

[Talon]

Martial Arts are more point-effective the less points you put into them. The right 10 points of martial maneuvers (Offensive Strike, Flying Dodge for example) are hard to match with CSLs.

[The Mad GM]

We've always used martial arts manuevers for fighters, though this assumes they actually got trained by somebody, not just natural skill.

I've used +DC with MA with limitations, like "Only from surprise" for a backstab type effect, or "Only versus giants" for a Giant-slayer.

I do find them very cost effective, though. It's a great way to give begining fighters an edge, plus more combat options.

[Killer Shrike]

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/fighterPackages.htm#Swashbuckler-Swordsman

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion2e/Class2e/warriors.htm

[Roland]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Martial Arts are more point-effective the less points you put into them. The right 10 points of martial maneuvers (Offensive Strike, Flying Dodge for example) are hard to match with CSLs.

Unless you spend extra points on weapon elements, relying on a martial art restricts your choice of effective weapons. There's an advantage in having the flexibility to choose different weapons for different opponents. Martial arts might be a more efficient way to purchase combat skills for everyday use in typical combat situations with a favorite weapon, but you might sacrifice flexibility for dealing with atypical situations. Offensive strike with a falchion usually works great, but there are times when I would rather have DCV or use a military pick.

In our campaign, a 2-point KS is required in order to learn a martial art. I think that blunts the point-efficiency of martial arts over CSLs just a bit. And it fits well with the idea that a martial art is a defined, learned fighting style, not just a gimmick to make warriors more effective. A martial art might also come with restrictions imposed by the teacher (e.g., Psych Lims or Watched).

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by Roland
Unless you spend extra points on weapon elements, relying on a martial art restricts your choice of effective weapons. There's an advantage in having the flexibility to choose different weapons for different opponents. Martial arts might be a more efficient way to purchase combat skills for everyday use in typical combat situations with a favorite weapon, but you might sacrifice flexibility for dealing with atypical situations. Offensive strike with a falchion usually works great, but there are times when I would rather have DCV or use a military pick.

In our campaign, a 2-point KS is required in order to learn a martial art. I think that blunts the point-efficiency of martial arts over CSLs just a bit. And it fits well with the idea that a martial art is a defined, learned fighting style, not just a gimmick to make warriors more effective. A martial art might also come with restrictions imposed by the teacher (e.g., Psych Lims or Watched).

I myself also normally use the Distinctive Feature limitation for Martial Arts, but the PC gets no points for it unless the martial art in question also carries some sort of a social stigma (The Hand of Kali? Only the most vile of assassins would resort to such!). This means that the PCs sometimes get short-sheeted by a knowledgable opponent when the guy with bunches of CSLs doesn't.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/fighterPackages.htm#Swashbuckler-Swordsman

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion2e/Class2e/warriors.htm

Your site's looking good, KS. I'm glad you decided to give up selling porn and come back to playing Hero. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious
Your site's looking good, KS. I'm glad you decided to give up selling porn and come back to playing Hero. :) I hope that was meant as a joke (smiling face and all).

The site is coming along -- I just wish I had more time to spend on it.....

[Enforcer84]

It looks really good KS. but you didn't HAVE to give up selling Porn....:D




JK!

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
It looks really good KS. but you didn't HAVE to give up selling Porn....:D




JK! :rolleyes: Maybe I should go into business selling porn -- probably make more money than working as a programmer -- or at the very least have fewer frustrations.

[Markdoc]

My problem with martial arts has never been the CV bonuses. In general, the guy who just buys a bunch of levels (especially 3 point levels with a tight group like "swords") often overpowers them in CV totals.

My problem has been that as Geoff pointed out, martial arts are more effective, the less you know, which seems a bit silly.

To counter that (and also indulge my liking for epic swordfights), I've put togther a martial arts system based on "vanilla" hero system rules, which does not suffer that failing and in addition, makes it much easier to GM "unusual but classic bits"*

The URL is:
http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

*As an example, I wanted a villian who could match the martial arts trained sword-wielding hero, without being a combat monster. So I bought him martial arts including a dispel against a certain, rival school of martial arts (that used by the player, of course). That let him reduce the rival martial artist's effectiveness enormously <quote: "Half moon cut? Only so-so."> To stand a decent chance of defeating him, the player had to travel to a distant master and learn a NEW technique that would be unaffected.

cheers, Mark