Odd Swords -- Real or Fantasy?

[Kristopher]

I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's ever actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword.

If so, where, when, and how would it be used?

Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee?

[tkdguy]

There are a few odd-looking swords around the world, but those seem like fantasy blades to me. I see a lot of those in the BudK catalogues, where they are given fancy names.

[Teflon Billy]

I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's every actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword.

If so, where, when, and how would it be used?

Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee?
It looks similar to a khopesh, a real world sword. Except for the curving out part near the hilt.

A little wiki-ing leads me to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcata

That looks quite similar. Keeping in mind that metallurgy has advanced significantly which allows for shapes that just were not possible by ancient craftsman, rather than modern forms just being fanciful and not reflecting any real function.

TB

[Curufea]

There's also matters of stress on materials - modern steels are a lot more homogeneous with little crystalisation (if done correctly) and are less likely to shatter at critical stress points of a sword.

Hence - the Kurgan's sword in Highlander would last for precisely one hit before flying into a hundred pieces, if it was real.

[Steve Long]

I don't know whether they'd be useless, but those are definitely "Fantasy" blades. I'm sure if you look around through enough reference sources you could find something vaguely similar, such as the aforementioned Falcata, but I don't think these are intended as historical re-creations.

[mayapuppies]

Those seem to mirror the Elven blade aesthetic from the LoTR movies. A trend I've seen in most fantasy style blades since their release.

Personally, I think it's an improvement over the old fantasy style blades that look liked swords with really bad haircuts.

[Vondy]

These are doubtless fantasy blades - but not necessarily useless. Modern steel is remarkably resilient, and the overall designs are reminiscent of some real world designs. The lower one does have a "khopesh" sort of feel to it (a philistine blade the egyptians adopted into use). The top one looks vaguely like a Falacta - though its definately not one. The real question (beyond balance and tensile strength), I think, is what sort of milieu these would be useful in. They are definately hacking-cutting blades: choppers.

[Bloodstone]

Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee?

Definitely pure fantasy, but it really depends on what they are made of and how they are weighted. By the look of them, they would not be a good weapon for a number of reasons: useless and potentially dangerous protrusions, only partial hand guard, looks like poor materials and workmanship. Looking it up, it's 440 Stainless, which is total crap for a sword (too brittle).

To my eyes, looks like an overly fancy two handed kilij, which probably means it would be used more like a katana than a shamshir. That doesn't strike me as a good combo at all, but I would have to have it in hand to know for sure. By the look alone, it doesn't match my preferences though.

In addition this weapon gives up the thrust completely and, because of the angles of the handle and blade, it's actually hard to say how well it will work for chopping, cutting or slashing. Mind you, you could probably still kill someone with it if it's sharp... or at least has enough weight behind it ;)

Oh, and I believe the original version of this blade was designed by Kit Rae. Check out the "Mithrodian"

[Markdoc]

I think the real value of these things is as wall decorations (though I have to admit, I would never decorate my wall with something that so obviously wasn't actually a sword).

There have been a bunch of weird and wacky sword designs used in real life, but even so, what's in the photos are clearly are "fantasy blades" - useless and imbalanced in combat. One thing all real swords share with each other (regardless of cultural origin) is an absence of the doodads, flanges, whatsits and animal/monster heads with which fantasy blades are so richly decorated - even if the blades, hilts or pommels of real swords were carefully and sometimes richly decorated. I agree with Mayapuppies: the big handle/blade ratio on these babies suggest that their real point of origin is the elven blades from LoTR.

cheers, Mark

[Shadowsoul]

One thing all real swords share with each other (regardless of cultural origin) is an absence of the doodads, flanges, whatsits and animal/monster heads with which fantasy blades are so richly decorated.


Apart from the sword breaker of course. But that had a very practical use.

http://www.kultofathena.com/images/HK2087.jpg

I'd agree that those blades look impractical. Not useless, nothing that big and sharp is useless as a weapon, but severely hampered when used against a blade designed with practicality in mind. Of course I'm more of a dabbler than an expert in bladecraft.

[Bloodstone]

You know, I've never actually seen anyone break a sword with one of those things. I'm not honestly sure it could be done reliably...

[Shadowsoul]

Depends entirely on the craftsmanship and type of sword in question. But apparently it has not been proven that swordbreakers were considered capable of actually breaking the swords which were contemporary with them. They would have been more reliable as a method of catching and/or trapping an opponent's blade. In principle they're not so different from a Japanese Sai.

[Lawnmower Boy]

I think the idea with the khopesh is that it is a Middle Bronze Age weapon. People at the time had relatively little access to metal, and were experimenting with forms that might get the best bang for the buck, resulting in the strange and impractical before real swords emerged in the LBA.
Strangely, no 1500BC swordsmith has asked my opinion. And if they did, I think I'd refer them to Bloodstone.

Who would totally have to share his consulting fee.

[Vondy]

Definitely pure fantasy, but it really depends on what they are made of and how they are weighted. By the look of them, they would not be a good weapon for a number of reasons: useless and potentially dangerous protrusions, only partial hand guard, looks like poor materials and workmanship. Looking it up, it's 440 Stainless, which is total crap for a sword (too brittle)

Nice catch on the steel quality. I looked up some quality swords online - the kind you use for cutting targets in dojos. Real cutting blades. They generally use 1090 steel. Also, looking at these things: they don't look at all balanced. I haven't picked one up, of course, but on a second glance they look... awkward. I think its the handle-blade relationship that bothers me. It makes me want to cock my head to one side to "make it right." Especially the bottom one.

[Markdoc]

Apart from the sword breaker of course. But that had a very practical use.

http://www.kultofathena.com/images/HK2087.jpg

I'd agree that those blades look impractical. Not useless, nothing that big and sharp is useless as a weapon, but severely hampered when used against a blade designed with practicality in mind. Of course I'm more of a dabbler than an expert in bladecraft.

Even that looks significantly more practical than the fantasy blades from the OP :D


You know, I've never actually seen anyone break a sword with one of those things. I'm not honestly sure it could be done reliably...

You are probably right (in fact, I'm not sure it could be done at all under combat situations). Like the Japanese sai (of which we have contemporary records of its use) the use of these gadgets was probably to catch and hold the sword, rather than break it, allowing either the swordwielder to be sudbued, or opening him up for a counterattack.

You might be able to break a foil with it though...

In fact, I can't even find any contemporary use of the word swordbreaker: the toothed daggers seem to have been called "parrying daggers" at the time (and there were lots of parrying daggers designed to catch swords, which clearly could never have broken them). It's always dangerous to make assumptions based on lack of evidence, but personally I think the name "swordbreaker" is a relatively modern one.

cheers, Mark

[Curufea]

The problem with researching anything to do with weapons and armour online is the complete inundation with roleplaying articles, terminology and fictional information that dilutes any useful progress.

[Vulcan]

I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's ever actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword.

If so, where, when, and how would it be used?

Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee?

The picture depicts the same weapon from different angles. The middle one looks so different from the top one because of the odd perspective distorting the shape of the blade.

As far as functionality: Well, so long as it has a sharp edge it can be dangerous. But with 440 Stainless Steel, it is definitely intended to be 'pretty' rather than functional. Design-wise, it reminds me more of a falchion than a khopesh.

One thing I do know is that the short two-hander (anything katana-length or shorter) is of limited use in a real melee-armed combat - you're giving up the rather large benefits of a shield or (if you can coordinate it) an extra weapon to parry with, for a minor gain in leverage and power without any real gain in striking range.

[Kristopher]

I might have asked the question poorly. I knew that the specific sword in the image was a work of a modern smith/artist's imagination. I just wondered if anything along the general lines of that weapon had ever been used by any real people.

What strikes me as the most un-useful part of the specific sword pictured is actually the highly angled "base" of the blade, where it meets the handle. Anything that causes the blade to slip in the wielder's hands has a good chance of causing the upper hand to lose its grip, I'd guess.

[Markdoc]

I might have asked the question poorly. I knew that the specific sword in the image was a work of a modern smith/artist's imagination. I just wondered if anything along the general lines of that weapon had ever been used by any real people.

What strikes me as the most un-useful part of the specific sword pictured is actually the highly angled "base" of the blade, where it meets the handle. Anything that causes the blade to slip in the wielder's hands has a good chance of causing the upper hand to lose its grip, I'd guess.

Ah - OK. The Khopesh and falcata have been mentioned, but to my eye, this looks nothing like either of those. It does, (in general shape) however look a bit like some swords I saw in museum of Thailand*. Those were pretty crude and as they were labelled "bandit weapons" I'm guessing they were agricultural cutting tools with the handles cut down to make makeshift swords, in the much the way European peasants cut down billhooks.

*the small miltary museum next to the palace in the compund of the temple of the Emerald Buddha in Bangkok, if anyone's interested :)

cheers, Mark

[Bloodstone]

Ah - OK. The Khopesh and falcata have bene mentioned, but to my eye, this looks nothing like either of those. It does, (in general shape) however look a bit like some of swords I saw in museum of Thailand*. Those were pretty crude and as they were labelled "bandit weapons" I'm guessing they were agricultural cutting tools with the handles cut down to make makeshift swords, in the much the way European peasants cut down billhooks.

Did it look anything like the Thai or Burmese Dha?

http://home.planet.nl/~bout0050/images/my%20swords/dha%20sword.JPG

I mention that one because it's a lightly curved sword with enough hilt for two hands, even though it's usually used one handed (often in matched pairs...)

[L. Marcus]

. . . I've held one of those. Practiced some kodachi kata.

[Kristopher]

The problem with researching anything to do with weapons and armour online is the complete inundation with roleplaying articles, terminology and fictional information that dilutes any useful progress.

I've read more than one claim, for example, that what gamers (and others) now call a "long sword" was, at least in England, call an arming sword, and that the term long sword was actually the original name for what gamers now call "bastard swords".

[Markdoc]

I've read more than one claim, for example, that what gamers (and others) now call a "long sword" was, at least in England, call an arming sword, and that the term long sword was actually the original name for what gamers now call "bastard swords".

Gamers like to put things in neat boxes. Medieval people hadn't invented RPGs. So what Gamers like to call a "long sword" medieval English people called a knightly sword, arming sword, broadsword, long sword, French sword, or just plain ol' sword. The name "long sword" was also used for bastard swords and occasionally for two-handed swords, and just to add to confusion, what we now call bastard swords were also called hand and a half swords, knightly swords or German swords.

Basically there was no such thing as standard sword types, and thus no such thing as a standard name for them.

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Did it look anything like the Thai or Burmese Dha?

http://home.planet.nl/~bout0050/images/my%20swords/dha%20sword.JPG

I mention that one because it's a lightly curved sword with enough hilt for two hands, even though it's usually used one handed (often in matched pairs...)

Nope, I've seen plenty of Dha or "fish swords". The items in question have that "blade widening and extending out in a point where the hilt would be if it had a hilt" shape that Kristopher asked about.

cheers, Mark

[Bloodstone]

Yep :(

Not too big deal so long as everyone knows what everyone else is talking about, but it does cause a lot of confusion. But nobody wants to refer to swords by terms like Oakeshott XII...

Though I will admit I about threw a fit when I saw what D&D thought a falchion looked like...

[Shadowsoul]

Ok, just looked a falchion up and apparently it's simply a slightly curving, wide-headed sword reminiscent of a scimitar but perhaps less curved. It's notable for its variation apparently.

How wrong could they have got it?

[Bloodstone]

Ok, just looked a falchion up and apparently it's simply a slightly curving, wide-headed sword reminiscent of a scimitar but perhaps less curved. It's notable for its variation apparently.

How wrong could they have got it?

Oh, looks about like this:

http://www.realmcollections.com/images/p/Functional_Swords_Sinbad_Scimitar_Swor_2006_92.jpg

[L. Marcus]

I wouldn't wanna handle that. Not if Indiana Jones is on the same continent.

[Shadowsoul]

Oh, looks about like this:

http://www.realmcollections.com/images/p/Functional_Swords_Sinbad_Scimitar_Swor_2006_92.jpg

Hmm yes. I take your point. Hey kids, can you spell 'balance issues'?

[Drell]

I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's ever actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword.

If so, where, when, and how would it be used?

Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee?

They're definitely fantasy blades, but whether or not they're useless in a melee depends on what from & how they're made, and whether or not the person using them knows how to use a blade. For the most part, someone who has actual, real edge-awareness and makes a point to study the weapon can use it in an effective way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more or less effective than weapons that have existed for centuries.

As the blade is there, in that picture, I'd say for the most part it's pretty flimsy. I'm a bladesmith (primarily knives), have made the study of blade steel an important part of my life, and can tell you that (most) factory-pressed 440 stainless steel never sees a heat treatment in its life, and because of that it's primarily decoration. It could be heat treated properly and be fairly lethal, but such steel isn't good for a sword - heat treated or not. Stainless steel in any length longer than a big knife (9" or so) reaches its shock point, where if you were to harang it into something, or defend a sword blow using the thing, it would break - IF it were heat treated. If not it'll just bend and fill up with gouges.

[Delthrien]

There are a fair number of historical blades that could be mistaken for fantasy weapons, like the Dacian Falx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx). More of a polearm with a curved blade that was sharpened on the inside of the curve, rather than the outside.

I remember reading somewhere that it was the inspiration for the elven blades used on the battlefield scenes in the LotR movies. I've always thought it would be cool to have a sword-length weapon that was half "hilt" (haft?) and half blade -- only perhaps a bit less curved.

Seems like the Zulu used something like that, too; looked like a long-bladed spear with a shortened haft. No idea what it was called... or really if what I remember is accurate. Could just as easily be something implanted by Hollywood. :p

[Bloodstone]

There are a fair number of historical blades that could be mistaken for fantasy weapons, like the Dacian Falx. More of a polearm with a curved blade that was sharpened on the inside of the curve, rather than the outside.

Nothing strikes me as particularly fantastical there. Not that unusual of a shape and there are many blades that are sharpened on the concave edge. Plus, the design seems practical.


Seems like the Zulu used something like that, too; looked like a long-bladed spear with a shortened haft. No idea what it was called... or really if what I remember is accurate.

It's called an Iklwa.

[Vulcan]

Hmm yes. I take your point. Hey kids, can you spell 'balance issues'?

That is primarily a cavalry weapon, made for slashing down at someone as you ride by. "Hassan CHOP!" is about right...:D

Edit: But yes, it is nothing like what would historically be called a Falchion.

[Bloodstone]

That is primarily a cavalry weapon, made for slashing down at someone as you ride by. "Hassan CHOP!" is about right...:D

I imagine that would be akin to using a large axe from horseback. As a general rule, cavalry sabers tend to be thin, one handed blades. Length and curvature depends on a number of factors...

The only "weapon" I've seen that comes close to matching the picture I posted above was a two handed blade designed for beheading prisoners.

Otherwise, it's pure Hollywood as far as I know.

[Markdoc]

There are a fair number of historical blades that could be mistaken for fantasy weapons, like the Dacian Falx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx). More of a polearm with a curved blade that was sharpened on the inside of the curve, rather than the outside.

The Falx is just a weaponised sickle, similar to the way medieval peasants made billhooks and flails from farm implements (in fact the Romans called the smaller version of the falx a sickle)


I remember reading somewhere that it was the inspiration for the elven blades used on the battlefield scenes in the LotR movies. I've always thought it would be cool to have a sword-length weapon that was half "hilt" (haft?) and half blade -- only perhaps a bit less curved.

The designers said in an a interview I saw that it wasn't based on any specific weapon, but that they were inspired by some asian weapons (no specific names). The closest matches I can think of are the Nagamaki (basically a cut down naginata)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Richard-Stein-Nagamaki.gif

or the chinese Dadao (literally "big sword", but more popularly known as "Bandit encampment sword" after a famous folkloric character who uses one)
http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/HW1012Close-dadao.jpg

cheers, Mark

[Matt the Bruins]

That is primarily a cavalry weapon, made for slashing down at someone as you ride by. "Hassan CHOP!" is about right...:DThat quote was my immediate thought as well. But hey, if you find yourself facing down a cartoon duck and rabbit maybe it's the weapon you want in hand?

While I'm in a thread surrounded by weapons experts, are there real world edged analogs to the tonfa-esque blades (http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/h/11175-2.jpg) Kroenen was sporting in Hellboy?

[Theron]

It seems there was a medieval European weapon similar to the nagamaki, but it's nomenclature is non-existent and it's provenance very scarce. The one place I've seen it is in the Maciejowski Bible:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf10/otm10va&b.gif

Being used by the knight in the brown surcote on the left. He's clearly wielding itwo-handed from horseback. It's got a blade like a glaive, but the grip/haft is very short.

Given that medieval iconography is often not the best source for period details, I would be doubtful about this weapon, except that the Mac Bible is generally considered on of the best sources for images of 13th century military life (although the violence depicted is exaggerated - these were Bible stories for illiterate noblemen; sort of a superhero comic of the day).

Interestingly enough, my parallel edition of "The Book of Chivalry of Geoffroi de Charny" translates the old French "glaive" as "sword." Which makes me think our medieval forebears weren't overly concerned with the niceties of nomenclature.

On the weirdly shaped blades front, there are also some pretty wicked looking falchions depicted in the same work:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf3/otm3va.gif

Almost dead center, the figure in quilted armour with green sleeves, wielding the weapon two-handed.

[Bloodstone]

While I'm in a thread surrounded by weapons experts, are there real world edged analogs to the tonfa-esque blades (http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/h/11175-2.jpg) Kroenen was sporting in Hellboy?

Well, there are now, but they are not based on any historical weapon that I know of.

I'm pretty sure the "Mandarin-Duck Double-Hooks" are actually a modern wu shu weapon, but you might want to look those up.

The Chinese did, however, use a large tonfa like weapon made of wood that had pointy sharpened ends. Name escapes me at the moment though...

[bschrempp]

Not exactly what you are looking for...

Here are a bunch of real weapons, all pole arms, but with interesting "blades" and "ends".
http://www.pbase.com/bschrempp/image/90989178

This one has some interesting stuff in the background.
http://www.pbase.com/bschrempp/image/90989182

I took thess pictures in the Tower of London museum.


Bob

[BobGreenwade]

Here are a bunch of real weapons, all pole arms, but with interesting "blades" and "ends".
http://www.pbase.com/bschrempp/image/90989178Very cool! :thumbup: Do you happen to know what the second one from the left is called? I find it very interesting.... :)

[Markdoc]

Very cool! :thumbup: Do you happen to know what the second one from the left is called? I find it very interesting.... :)

Well, technically speaking it's just a heavy lump of wood or metal with some spikes driven through it: the whole "what kind of a weapon is this" is often pretty meaningless, given that many weapons were one of a kind.

That said, while the above is accurate, it's not very helpful. On the off chance I decided to be helpful, I would probably class it as a spiked club, Lucern Hammer or a Godentag, all being "spiky or beaky hitting heads on a long stick". :D

FWIW, L->R they are three "Spiked club/Lucern Hammer/Godentags", a partisan, a .... bill-guisarme? Possibly a glaive? A spetum, a halberd, a bill (or a Fauchard) and a bardiche.

Note that Bardiches are also often lumped in under guisarme, and that in medieval times, a halberd could be any kind of largish axe and a bill pretty much any kind of pointy-blade-on-a-stick. :D

cheers, Mark

[Kristopher]

Part of what interested me in this, besides pure curiousity, is that there's a character in the FNIP who needs a somewhat unusual but very functional weapon.

I think I'm just going to stick with the sword that has about 30" of straight/pointed blade and yet has a full two-handed hilt.

[Markdoc]

Part of what interested me in this, besides pure curiousity, is that there's a character in the FNIP who needs a somewhat unusual but very functional weapon.

I think I'm just going to stick with the sword that has about 30" of straight/pointed blade and yet has a full two-handed hilt.

What style of fighting is the player interested in his character having? If you can give some idea (sneak fighter, big bruiser, Tank, etc) we might be able to suggest unusual, but realistic weapons for him.

Also, what's a FNIP?

cheers, Mark

[FenrisUlf]

I see swords like those in the attached image in shops and in fantasy art a lot, and I always wonder, are they based on anything that's ever actually been used as a weapon? In particular, the longer, top-most sword.

If so, where, when, and how would it be used?

Or are they purely the work of imagination, and fairly useless in a real melee?

They look like yataghans, and they were used in real combat in the Middle East, Caucasus, and Central Asia. Though the middle one does seem to have an overly-long hilt.

[Kristopher]

What style of fighting is the player interested in his character having? If you can give some idea (sneak fighter, big bruiser, Tank, etc) we might be able to suggest unusual, but realistic weapons for him.

Also, what's a FNIP?

cheers, Mark

FNIP = Fantasy Novel in Progress. (Perhaps I should add a "supposed" in there, I don't have much energy to work on the thing most days.)

The protagonist needs a cutting/stabbing weapon that takes advatage of her quickness, works in both offense and defense, and can be easily switched between hands.

I was looking at that weapon in the picture and thinking that something vaguely like it, but with more a functional interface between blade and hilt, and with a much less curved and artsy hilt, would be a possibility.

[Kristopher]

This is why I hardly ever tell people why I'm asking these kinds of questions...:(

[lemming]

I'm sure someone has a good idea of what could fit.

[Vulcan]

Sorry, Kristopher, I've been busy on other threads...

There are several weapons that could serve, but they span across literally millenia of time. A bit more information on the nature and tech level of the world might help...

[Kristopher]

Sorry, Kristopher, I've been busy on other threads...

There are several weapons that could serve, but they span across literally millenia of time. A bit more information on the nature and tech level of the world might help...

The tech level of the world is, in general, that of the peak of the Romans, with variations how developed fields are depending on which culture you're looking at (to avoid a five page tangent, I'll leave it at that). The protagonist's people sit at a sort of crossroads of trade, and have access to concepts and techniques from around the world (OK, one tangent, ship-building is one example of a technology better than the Romans had). It's hard to say this in a concise manner without sounding cliched, but they're also an old, old people with access to the the knowledge of past ages.

So... anything you want to suggest, I'm sure it would fit in.

[Vulcan]

Okay. If we're looking at a Roman tech level, metallurgy is still a bit on the primitive side. Swords rarely reach more than 3' overall, because the steel of the time won't support longer weapons structurally.

The swords of the time range from the classic Celtic longsword, the Roman Gladius, the Falcatta, the Greek Hoplite-style short swords, and the actual historical Khopesh (not to be confused with the D&D version). All are pictured here: http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/ancient-swords.html Go ahead and take a look, I'll wait here.:D

Now, two things jump out. First, not one of those swords have very much in the way of a handguard. That is typical of all weapons of the time period. You block with the shield, and attack with the sword. Later guards were developed for occasions where one might be fighting without a shield.

The other thing is that neither the celtic longsword nor the Falcatta have points worth speaking of. That's because they are primarily slashing and chopping weapons - the Falcatta in particular has very nearly as much chopping power as an axe!

That leaves us with the various Greek and Roman shortswords, and the Khopesh.

The Greek and Roman swords were very well designed for use in tight formations. The primary attack form was the thrust, and the long, tapered points facilitate that well. Additionally, the 'cutting tests' performed on the website I linked to show that they also have a fair amount of cutting power - bearing in mind that these are generally pretty big, strong guys doing the testing. Your female protaganist may have a bit of trouble duplicating those results, :D but these swords are still plenty lethal in the cut.

But then, there's still the Khopesh. Looks kinda crude there, that old, tarnished bronze weapon. The blade, being sickle-shaped (but with the edge on the outside of the curve) gives it a primitive appearance, and so it was judged a primitive, clumsy weapon by historians - a footnote in the evolution of swords, as it were.

Then recently, someone made up a modern one and handed it to an experienced medieval combat reinactor... And the assessment was a true revalation. It swings like a dream, and has a slash or chop much like the falcatta, but the reinforced point - and that subtle angle between the hilt and the point - make it stab like the best Gladius, only a bit longer (bonus!).

The khopesh was recently featured on a Discovery or History channel special about Egyptian weaponry, I wish I could find a link to it off hand (you might try searching for it yourself, my google-fu seems rather weak tonight). Add into that the ability to use the curve of the sickle-shape to 'hook' an opponent's shield and wrench it out of position, and you have one heck of a weapon system!

If you're looking to give your character a taste of the exotic, a Khopesh might be the way to go.

[Markdoc]

The other possibility, often overlooked, is actually one of the most basic of weapons - the spear. A long-bladed spear is an excellent weapon for a smaller fighter, because it gives reach, and also because its length gives leverage (increasing the amount of damage you can do while slashing). You can use the haft to deliver non-killing blows or to trip and confuse your opponent. Even in a country as addicted to swords as Japan, during the age of war, the spear was the battlefield weapon par excellence.

It's not an "exotic" weapon per se, but it is relatively exotic in fantasy fiction because heroes tend to have swords, really big axes or funky chain weapons. It does have the drawback of being largish. :)

cheers, Mark

[Kristopher]

Okay. If we're looking at a Roman tech level, metallurgy is still a bit on the primitive side. Swords rarely reach more than 3' overall, because the steel of the time won't support longer weapons structurally.

The swords of the time range from the classic Celtic longsword, the Roman Gladius, the Falcatta, the Greek Hoplite-style short swords, and the actual historical Khopesh (not to be confused with the D&D version). All are pictured here: http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/ancient-swords.html Go ahead and take a look, I'll wait here.:D

Now, two things jump out. First, not one of those swords have very much in the way of a handguard. That is typical of all weapons of the time period. You block with the shield, and attack with the sword. Later guards were developed for occasions where one might be fighting without a shield.

The other thing is that neither the celtic longsword nor the Falcatta have points worth speaking of. That's because they are primarily slashing and chopping weapons - the Falcatta in particular has very nearly as much chopping power as an axe!

That leaves us with the various Greek and Roman shortswords, and the Khopesh.

The Greek and Roman swords were very well designed for use in tight formations. The primary attack form was the thrust, and the long, tapered points facilitate that well. Additionally, the 'cutting tests' performed on the website I linked to show that they also have a fair amount of cutting power - bearing in mind that these are generally pretty big, strong guys doing the testing. Your female protaganist may have a bit of trouble duplicating those results, :D but these swords are still plenty lethal in the cut.

But then, there's still the Khopesh. Looks kinda crude there, that old, tarnished bronze weapon. The blade, being sickle-shaped (but with the edge on the outside of the curve) gives it a primitive appearance, and so it was judged a primitive, clumsy weapon by historians - a footnote in the evolution of swords, as it were.

Then recently, someone made up a modern one and handed it to an experienced medieval combat reinactor... And the assessment was a true revalation. It swings like a dream, and has a slash or chop much like the falcatta, but the reinforced point - and that subtle angle between the hilt and the point - make it stab like the best Gladius, only a bit longer (bonus!).

The khopesh was recently featured on a Discovery or History channel special about Egyptian weaponry, I wish I could find a link to it off hand (you might try searching for it yourself, my google-fu seems rather weak tonight). Add into that the ability to use the curve of the sickle-shape to 'hook' an opponent's shield and wrench it out of position, and you have one heck of a weapon system!

If you're looking to give your character a taste of the exotic, a Khopesh might be the way to go.

Not a bad suggestion at all. Problem is, there's already another culture using them as a "signature" weapon.

[Kristopher]

The other possibility, often overlooked, is actually one of the most basic of weapons - the spear. A long-bladed spear is an excellent weapon for a smaller fighter, because it gives reach, and also because its length gives leverage (increasing the amount of damage you can do while slashing). You can use the haft to deliver non-killing blows or to trip and confuse your opponent. Even in a country as addicted to swords as Japan, during the age of war, the spear was the battlefield weapon par excellence.

It's not an "exotic" weapon per se, but it is relatively exotic in fantasy fiction because heroes tend to have swords, really big axes or funky chain weapons. It does have the drawback of being largish. :)

I had considered a sort of "spear-sword" with a longer blade (10 to 14 inches or so) for both slashing and stabbing, and a slightly shorter haft, with a small crossguard at the base of the blade.

[bigbywolfe]

Oh, looks about like this:



It looks like the “Scimitars” from the Aladdin cartoon!


Part of what interested me in this, besides pure curiousity, is that there's a character in the FNIP who needs a somewhat unusual but very functional weapon.

I think I'm just going to stick with the sword that has about 30" of straight/pointed blade and yet has a full two-handed hilt.


FNIP = Fantasy Novel in Progress. (Perhaps I should add a "supposed" in there, I don't have much energy to work on the thing most days.)

The protagonist needs a cutting/stabbing weapon that takes advatage of her quickness, works in both offense and defense, and can be easily switched between hands.

I was looking at that weapon in the picture and thinking that something vaguely like it, but with more a functional interface between blade and hilt, and with a much less curved and artsy hilt, would be a possibility.


I had considered a sort of "spear-sword" with a longer blade (10 to 14 inches or so) for both slashing and stabbing, and a slightly shorter haft, with a small crossguard at the base of the blade.

If you had thought of a spear or staff, try looking up the Shaolin Spade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_spade You can ‘stab’ with the short points of the crescent, slice with the pendulum

[Kristopher]

If you had thought of a spear or staff, try looking up the Shaolin Spade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_spade You can ‘stab’ with the short points of the crescent, slice with the pendulum

Very cool, but not exactly what I'm looking for.

[bschrempp]

Very cool! :thumbup: Do you happen to know what the second one from the left is called? I find it very interesting.... :)


Looking at my original images and zooming way in I can read most of the labels next to the polearms. From left to right they read:

A Dame's Club (not 100% on the second word)
The Spanish Morning-Star
King Henry the VIIIth's Walking Staff
A Spanish Lance
Spanish Ramcer (not sure on the second word)
A Foreign Lance
The Spanish General's Halbert
A Scythe
The Lockhaber Axe

So that is what the Tower Of London Museum calls them.


Bob

[Vulcan]

The greeks made a sword with a leaf-shaped blade (a bit like an elongated spearhead) around 30" or so long. It was designed to stab, but had enough weight toward the tip to give it a rather authoritative chop. I've been hunting around for a picture, but thus far haven't found one... :(

[Lucius]

Looking at my original images and zooming way in I can read most of the labels next to the polearms. From left to right they read:

A Dame's Club (not 100% on the second word)

Bob

Could it be "A Dane's Club?"

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks a Dame's Club sounds like the feminine equivalent of a Gentleman's Club

[Kristopher]

The greeks made a sword with a leaf-shaped blade (a bit like an elongated spearhead) around 30" or so long. It was designed to stab, but had enough weight toward the tip to give it a rather authoritative chop. I've been hunting around for a picture, but thus far haven't found one... :(

I think I know which sword you're refering to, and I'm also having a lot of trouble finding a good image.

(You have to wade through a lot of crap, nonsense swords from the "spartan" warriors shown in 300 now, if you look for "Greek sword" in Google.)

Sounds like you mean something a bit like the two in the attached images.

[mikesama]

Gamers like to put things in neat boxes. Medieval people hadn't invented RPGs. So what Gamers like to call a "long sword" medieval English people called a knightly sword, arming sword, broadsword, long sword, French sword, or just plain ol' sword. The name "long sword" was also used for bastard swords and occasionally for two-handed swords, and just to add to confusion, what we now call bastard swords were also called hand and a half swords, knightly swords or German swords.

Basically there was no such thing as standard sword types, and thus no such thing as a standard name for them.

cheers, Mark

Closest you got is the research and works of Ewart Oakeshott who has guard types blade patterns and the like to classify the sword.

[Markdoc]

Closest you got is the research and works of Ewart Oakeshott who has guard types blade patterns and the like to classify the sword.

Yeah, but Oakeshott is one of the last of those compulsive victorians who gave us the "classify and fix the names of things" meme. The breadth of his knowledge and the depth of his research cannot be doubted. He is still frequently cited, by scholars in medieval and feudal archeology. At the same time, his classification systems today are considered a bit laughable - the staff archeologists at the National museum here, which hold one of the world's largest collection of viking swords have removed the old Oakeshott classifications from their catalogue cards, describing them as "at best uninformative, at worst misleading" - although another, in an unguarded remark to me called them "ren fantasi" - "pure fantasy". By classing two swords as - for example - "Petersen G" you give the impression that they are somehow related, even though they might come from completely different areas and be produced two hundred years apart by smiths who knew nothing of each other's work.

cheers, Mark

[Vulcan]

I think I know which sword you're refering to, and I'm also having a lot of trouble finding a good image.

(You have to wade through a lot of crap, nonsense swords from the "spartan" warriors shown in 300 now, if you look for "Greek sword" in Google.)

Sounds like you mean something a bit like the two in the attached images.

Vaguely. The one I saw was a bit longer (the pugio was only 18" or so), and even more severely wasp-waisted just above the 'guard'.

<sigh> I've got to keep looking, it was a really cool-looking short sword.

[Vulcan]

Okay, I've found a picture of the sword I'm talking about here: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_ironempire.html

Scroll down just a bit, and there is a picture of it on the right - it is the first one on the page, and is apparently called the Xiphos. The text confirms it's versatility for both cutting and stabbing (although it correcty points out that the xiphos does lack the sheer chopping power of the kopis/falcatta design).

[Kristopher]

Okay, I've found a picture of the sword I'm talking about here: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_ironempire.html

Scroll down just a bit, and there is a picture of it on the right - it is the first one on the page, and is apparently called the Xiphos. The text confirms it's versatility for both cutting and stabbing (although it correcty points out that the xiphos does lack the sheer chopping power of the kopis/falcatta design).

I almost asked if you meant the xiphos after looking around, but the images I saw weren't very clear and it looked almost straight in those.

[Vulcan]

The really fun thing about discussing historical weapons is that the people who used the weapons didn't speak modern English - heck, most didn't speak any form of English. So we get a variety of names for swords that, in their original context, probably would most accurately translate as 'sword'... :D

I thought that the Xiphos was the sword I was looking for, but like your searches, most of mine turned up the straight-edged versions, or occasionally ones that were just slightly wasp-waisted. The one on the link, on the other hand, doubles in width from the narrow section just below the guard to the broadest part of the blade 2/3rds of the way to the tip.

One of these days I would love to get my hands on one of those and see how well it swings. (That, and a good replica of a Khopesh... :eg:)

[Kristopher]

So...

Are there any examples of swords with something around 30" of blade length, and a full two-handed hilt? Almost every example I can find of a "bastard sword" or a two-hander have at least 36" of blade.

[Fitz]

Japanese swords, of course -- a lot of later katana are quite short in the blade, well under 30"; 24-28" blades are quite common. As far as European swords go, some falchions were made with longer hand-and-a-half grips on a relatively short chopping blade.

[Markdoc]

The really fun thing about discussing historical weapons is that the people who used the weapons didn't speak modern English - heck, most didn't speak any form of English. So we get a variety of names for swords that, in their original context, probably would most accurately translate as 'sword'... :D

I thought that the Xiphos was the sword I was looking for, but like your searches, most of mine turned up the straight-edged versions, or occasionally ones that were just slightly wasp-waisted. The one on the link, on the other hand, doubles in width from the narrow section just below the guard to the broadest part of the blade 2/3rds of the way to the tip.

That's because of what you wrote in your first paragraph - a Xiphos is just a short stabbing sword (there's disagreement on what the name means because it's derived from pre-attic greek: most scholars settle on "stabbing" or "penetrating". The blade can be lots of different shapes. The shape of blade you are referring to is found in all kinds of swords and is generally referred to as a "leaf blade" - you find it in early spanish swords (Pugio) and celtic swords as well.

Although the way the weigh was distributed towards the tip makes it look like it'd be good for chopping, there is some debate about this - a lot of historians think that the leaf shape was designed to make "drawing cuts" easier - a slicing type of cut that goes far deeper than a simple chop - but which isn't much use against armour.

cheers, Mark

[Vulcan]

So...

Are there any examples of swords with something around 30" of blade length, and a full two-handed hilt? Almost every example I can find of a "bastard sword" or a two-hander have at least 36" of blade.

Not unless you make one up specifically for your character.

A two-handed sword is designed long specifically to take advantage of the extra leverage the grip provides to extend reach and, by that extension, chopping power at the tip. A sword is basically a wedge powered by a lever. The longer the lever, the more force is delivered to the wedge at the point of impact.

A short two-hander of the size you're looking for would surrender a lot of reach to most one-handed weapons (along with the utility of being able to do something else with the other hand), for only a modest increase in leverage for the block/bind, and little-to-none advantage in actual striking power. In short, historically you're going to get cut to ribbons using such a short two-hander.

The katana (and the similarly-sized swords used by Conan in the movies) are about as short as you can make a two-hander and still have any useable advantage over a single-handed sword.

Now in the time period you're looking at - the ancient Greek/Egyptian period - swords were significantly shorter, because the metallurgy would not support swords over 36" overall length - any longer and they tended to break very quickly. So, most swords had 5-6" in handle, guard, and pommel, leaving 30(ish) inches of blade. For proper function, a two-handed grip would need at least a foot of handle, plus another couple inches in guard and pommel. That leaves you with a 20ish inch blade, or roughly a two-handed dagger...

A two-handed sword in this time period would be an anomoly - of course, that might well be what makes your heroine special. However it happened, someone managed to forge some honest-to-god steel instead of iron, and made a significantly longer weapon just for her... :D

Edit: Thinking about it, giving her a real steel sword would also give her a huuuuuuuuge advantage in cutting power as well!

[Kristopher]

Not unless you make one up specifically for your character.

A two-handed sword is designed long specifically to take advantage of the extra leverage the grip provides to extend reach and, by that extension, chopping power at the tip. A sword is basically a wedge powered by a lever. The longer the lever, the more force is delivered to the wedge at the point of impact.

A short two-hander of the size you're looking for would surrender a lot of reach to most one-handed weapons (along with the utility of being able to do something else with the other hand), for only a modest increase in leverage for the block/bind, and little-to-none advantage in actual striking power. In short, historically you're going to get cut to ribbons using such a short two-hander.

The katana (and the similarly-sized swords used by Conan in the movies) are about as short as you can make a two-hander and still have any useable advantage over a single-handed sword.

Now in the time period you're looking at - the ancient Greek/Egyptian period - swords were significantly shorter, because the metallurgy would not support swords over 36" overall length - any longer and they tended to break very quickly. So, most swords had 5-6" in handle, guard, and pommel, leaving 30(ish) inches of blade. For proper function, a two-handed grip would need at least a foot of handle, plus another couple inches in guard and pommel. That leaves you with a 20ish inch blade, or roughly a two-handed dagger...

A two-handed sword in this time period would be an anomoly - of course, that might well be what makes your heroine special. However it happened, someone managed to forge some honest-to-god steel instead of iron, and made a significantly longer weapon just for her... :D

Edit: Thinking about it, giving her a real steel sword would also give her a huuuuuuuuge advantage in cutting power as well!

To be clear, 30"-ish blade, plus the length of the hilt. OK, wait, I see what you're actually saying -- that with the limit of technology in the time period you're thinking of, the limit for a full two-handed hilt would be no more than 20" of blade, which I agree with be a bit rediculous.

I'm a bit conflicted about the technology level in question -- I was actually, as stated, thinking about Roman-era peak for most of the world (which is a lot more sophisticated than some people think), because the largest state is Roman Republic-esque, but then I have some concepts that demand something different, and I have to reconcile without being cheesey or unbelievable. Might be a case of too many ideas for one setting...

[Kristopher]

The fighting approach of the character in question is about being unpredictable and versatile. She needs a weapon that can change hands and styles quickly, can deal with most other weapons in single/small combat, and can be carried easily by someone who travels all the time.

As for shields, she wears heavy, multilayer plate vambraces (the armor on the forearm, in her case "gutter" instead of "cylinder") -- heavier than you'd usually see even in a set of full, articulated plate armor. Her gloves are also heavily armored on the back of the hand and fingers. Maybe that's not as functional as I'm thinking it would be.

[Vulcan]

The fighting approach of the character in question is about being unpredictable and versatile. She needs a weapon that can change hands and styles quickly, can deal with most other weapons in single/small combat, and can be carried easily by someone who travels all the time.

As for shields, she wears heavy, multilayer plate vambraces (the armor on the forearm, in her case "gutter" instead of "cylinder") -- heavier than you'd usually see even in a set of full, articulated plate armor. Her gloves are also heavily armored on the back of the hand and fingers. Maybe that's not as functional as I'm thinking it would be.

She'd have to have arms like Arnold Schwartzenegger to hold up all that metal... :D

Although... in a setting where bronze is the most common material for weapons and armor, then iron - or some more anomolous steel - vambraces would be very hard to damage, and wouldn't have to be ridiculosuly thick and heavy to do the job.

Or you could go with a paired weapon combo for her - say, short sword and tonfa.

[Kristopher]

She'd have to have arms like Arnold Schwartzenegger to hold up all that metal... :D

As opposed to a shield and the armor someone would be wearing anyway, or something along those lines? How much heavier would it be?

How did those little (by modern standards) Macedonians manage a shield and a 20 foot pike?

[Vulcan]

They may have been little (by modern standards, anyway), but I would bet that you would have a hard time finding anyone in the modern world in as good shape as an average warrior or soldier from history.

We, as a society, are woefully out-of-shape. Walking a mile is a major undertaking for most people, never mind marching all day long. Doing it while carrying 50+ lbs of gear is out of the question for anyone except military personnel. And they have other options - choppers, APC's, trucks, etc. - to help out. The various disctractions of the modern age (radio, TV, computers... :D) doesn't help out any either.

The ancients had no such distractions, and little in the way of mechanical assistance. You walked a mile to the far end of the field before breakfast, carrying a bag of seed/fertilzer/whatever. At the end of harvest, you walked that mile back repeatedly, carrying the crops to storage. In between, you walked countless miles maintaining the crops. Need a drink? Go pull the water up from a well. Going to market? That could be several miles away.

I would bet those Macedonian soldiers had no problem handling the sarissa properly.

Of course, now that I think about it, the girls wouldn't have been wimps either, since they're the ones who had to go for the water, and to market, etc... :o Which was probably your point in the first place.

[Kristopher]

They may have been little (by modern standards, anyway), but I would bet that you would have a hard time finding anyone in the modern world in as good shape as an average warrior or soldier from history.

We, as a society, are woefully out-of-shape. Walking a mile is a major undertaking for most people, never mind marching all day long. Doing it while carrying 50+ lbs of gear is out of the question for anyone except military personnel. And they have other options - choppers, APC's, trucks, etc. - to help out. The various disctractions of the modern age (radio, TV, computers... :D) doesn't help out any either.

The ancients had no such distractions, and little in the way of mechanical assistance. You walked a mile to the far end of the field before breakfast, carrying a bag of seed/fertilzer/whatever. At the end of harvest, you walked that mile back repeatedly, carrying the crops to storage. In between, you walked countless miles maintaining the crops. Need a drink? Go pull the water up from a well. Going to market? That could be several miles away.

I would bet those Macedonian soldiers had no problem handling the sarissa properly.

Of course, now that I think about it, the girls wouldn't have been wimps either, since they're the ones who had to go for the water, and to market, etc... :o Which was probably your point in the first place.

It was kinda my point -- that most people were, compared to us, in remarkable shape (on the other hand, they had a lot more illness that they could do nothing to treat). Or rather, my point in asking was to point out that people we would consider little and sometimes undernourished managed to end up with loads of stamina and carrying strength.

[Michael Hopcroft]

But then, there's still the Khopesh. Looks kinda crude there, that old, tarnished bronze weapon. The blade, being sickle-shaped (but with the edge on the outside of the curve) gives it a primitive appearance, and so it was judged a primitive, clumsy weapon by historians - a footnote in the evolution of swords, as it were.

Then recently, someone made up a modern one and handed it to an experienced medieval combat reinactor... And the assessment was a true revalation. It swings like a dream, and has a slash or chop much like the falcatta, but the reinforced point - and that subtle angle between the hilt and the point - make it stab like the best Gladius, only a bit longer (bonus!).

The khopesh was recently featured on a Discovery or History channel special about Egyptian weaponry, I wish I could find a link to it off hand (you might try searching for it yourself, my google-fu seems rather weak tonight). Add into that the ability to use the curve of the sickle-shape to 'hook' an opponent's shield and wrench it out of position, and you have one heck of a weapon system!

If you're looking to give your character a taste of the exotic, a Khopesh might be the way to go.

That is great information. Thanks.

One thing I wonder about the wars of the Old Testament era was what sort of weapons were used and how men actually fought. Obviously slings and bows were used, as were war chariots, but how were battles fought and decided?

Anyway, have some rep.

[Vulcan]

It was kinda my point -- that most people were, compared to us, in remarkable shape (on the other hand, they had a lot more illness that they could do nothing to treat). Or rather, my point in asking was to point out that people we would consider little and sometimes undernourished managed to end up with loads of stamina and carrying strength.

Yep! Our forefathers would sneer at us as a bunch of wusses, all right! ;)

[Vulcan]

That is great information. Thanks.

One thing I wonder about the wars of the Old Testament era was what sort of weapons were used and how men actually fought. Obviously slings and bows were used, as were war chariots, but how were battles fought and decided?

Anyway, have some rep.

Keep an eye on the History Channel, they have been running shows about that very subject lately - even detailing the strategies and campaigns of the Israelite kings in their conquest of Canaan. But in short, the Old Testament wars were fought with spear, shield, and khopesh - it seems to have been the signature bronze age weapon of the area. But some of the classical tactics - even ones like attacking out of the sun and draw your enemy out of his strong position - were standard at the time.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Keep an eye on the History Channel, they have been running shows about that very subject lately - even detailing the strategies and campaigns of the Israelite kings in their conquest of Canaan. But in short, the Old Testament wars were fought with spear, shield, and khopesh - it seems to have been the signature bronze age weapon of the area. But some of the classical tactics - even ones like attacking out of the sun and draw your enemy out of his strong position - were standard at the time.

Obviously one of the innumerable details that Cecil B. DeMille continuously got wrong.

[Vulcan]

Obviously one of the innumerable details that Cecil B. DeMille continuously got wrong.

I've heard the name, but I have no idea who that is...

[Michael Hopcroft]

I've heard the name, but I have no idea who that is...

Cecil B. DeMille was one of the most successful producer-directors in cinema history, starting in the silent era and going strong through the 1950's. Epics were his line and the Biblical epic was his specialty. today, he is best known for his final movie, The Ten Commandments (a remake of a silent film he'd made in the 1920s). He was also responsible for two atempts to make King of Kings, an adaptation of Jesus's story. These were usually the backdrop for much spectacle.

Incidentally, DeMille had a cameo as himself in Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard and was mentioned in the notorious final scene.

[Vulcan]

Cecil B. DeMille was one of the most successful producer-directors in cinema history, starting in the silent era and going strong through the 1950's. Epics were his line and the Biblical epic was his specialty. today, he is best known for his final movie, The Ten Commandments (a remake of a silent film he'd made in the 1920s). He was also responsible for two atempts to make King of Kings, an adaptation of Jesus's story. These were usually the backdrop for much spectacle.

Incidentally, DeMille had a cameo as himself in Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard and was mentioned in the notorious final scene.

Ah. And he had no idea what the swords of the era looked like, I assume.

[L. Marcus]

. . . I like the story of how one of de Mille's abandoned sets was rediscovered and thought to be the remnants of an old Californian, pre-Columbian civilisation.

[Kristopher]

Yep! Our forefathers would sneer at us as a bunch of wusses, all right! ;)

On the other hand, we're... tall. To some of them, the first world would look like a land of wussy giants. ;) Imagine what they'd think of certain athletes -- 6'6" and 260 lbs, 7+' and 300+ lbs, guys who are tall and heavy and in very good shape.

[Vulcan]

On the other hand, we're... tall. To some of them, the first world would look like a land of wussy giants. ;) Imagine what they'd think of certain athletes -- 6'6" and 260 lbs, 7+' and 300+ lbs, guys who are tall and heavy and in very good shape.

The only thing that comes to mind is 'The bigger they are, the harder they fall...' http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/rofl.gif

[Michael Hopcroft]

Ah. And he had no idea what the swords of the era looked like, I assume.

In his day, nobody did really. Archaeology was still a realm of gathering artifacts for museums, with understanding of cultures through those artifacts important but secondary to the process of getting and staying funded. A prime example was the Tutankhamen excavations, which were mainly a race to get all those artifacts out of the tomb before the poachers did and study them later at leisure. This meant, of course, that the study lacked context and it took several decades before significant knowledge about the Boy King and his times was gained.

[Michael Hopcroft]

On the other hand, we're... tall. To some of them, the first world would look like a land of wussy giants. ;) Imagine what they'd think of certain athletes -- 6'6" and 260 lbs, 7+' and 300+ lbs, guys who are tall and heavy and in very good shape.

One word -- Goliath.

[Vulcan]

One word -- Goliath.

Goliath was from our time? :nonp:

:D

[Curufea]

You could have an interesting RPG plot set in ancient times where Goliath was a time traveller :)

However - there will always be mutants in any period. We still have dwarfs and midgets today after all, and folk more than 7 feet tall.

There is of course the standard response of any historian as well - are there any primary sources to prove that Goliath actually existed?

[bigbywolfe]

I thought there was several non-Biblical references to "giants" being integrating into Philistine culture, but I could be mis-remembering...

[Curufea]

Maybe they were what's left of the crew of Battlestar Galactica?
:)

[lemming]

The only thing that comes to mind is 'The bigger they are, the harder they fall...'

And of course "The bigger they are, the harder they hit." ;)

Just something from a giant robot in one of our games.

[Vulcan]

And of course "The bigger they are, the harder they hit." ;)

Just something from a giant robot in one of our games.

Not to mention Darkwing Duck! ;)

[lemming]

Not to mention Darkwing Duck! ;)

Heh. Our game predated that, mid-80s. :D (Not that it hadn't been heard of before that.)

[Kristopher]

Part of what it comes down to is that just about every practical, useful variation on the sword and similar weapons has already been done and is already associated with an existing culture.

It's hard to come up with a new bladed melee weapon or useful variation of one at this point.

[Vulcan]

Yeah, there's really only so many ways you can take a long piece of metal and make it effective at inflicting penetrating trauma on the human body.

Out of curiousity, have you consiered giving your protagonist a kris-style blade?

[L. Marcus]

Or a pair of butterfly swords?

[Kristopher]

Yeah, there's really only so many ways you can take a long piece of metal and make it effective at inflicting penetrating trauma on the human body.

Out of curiousity, have you consiered giving your protagonist a kris-style blade?


Not an authentic keris, but perhaps something with a blade of that sort but a more European hilt and crossguard of some sort.

However, your mention of the keris did prompt me to do a little searching, and I found the following section in the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris#Spirits) article, which lends itself nicely to something I had in mind.


Blades are considered to almost be alive, or at the very least, vessels of special powers. Krisses could be tested two ways. A series of cuts on a leaf, based on blade width and other factors, could determine if a blade was good or bad. Also, if the owner slept with the blade under their pillow, the spirit of the kris would communicate with the owner via dream. If the owner had a bad dream, the blade was unlucky and had to be discarded, whereas if the owner had a good dream the owner would have good fortune. However, just because a blade was bad for one person didn't mean it would be bad for another. Harmony between the owner and the kris was critical.

It was said that some kris helped prevent fires, death, agricultural failure, and many other problems. Likewise, they could also bring fortune, such as bountiful harvests. Krisses could also have tremendous killing power. Some are rumored to stand on their tips when their real names are called by their masters. Legends tell of krisses moving on their own volition and killing individuals at will. When making a blade, the empu could infuse into the blade any special spiritual qualities and powers the owner desires.

[Vulcan]

Not an authentic keris, but perhaps something with a blade of that sort but a more European hilt and crossguard of some sort.

However, your mention of the keris did prompt me to do a little searching, and I found the following section in the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris#Spirits) article, which lends itself nicely to something I had in mind.

Blades are considered to almost be alive, or at the very least, vessels of special powers. Krisses could be tested two ways. A series of cuts on a leaf, based on blade width and other factors, could determine if a blade was good or bad. Also, if the owner slept with the blade under their pillow, the spirit of the kris would communicate with the owner via dream. If the owner had a bad dream, the blade was unlucky and had to be discarded, whereas if the owner had a good dream the owner would have good fortune. However, just because a blade was bad for one person didn't mean it would be bad for another. Harmony between the owner and the kris was critical.

It was said that some kris helped prevent fires, death, agricultural failure, and many other problems. Likewise, they could also bring fortune, such as bountiful harvests. Krisses could also have tremendous killing power. Some are rumored to stand on their tips when their real names are called by their masters. Legends tell of krisses moving on their own volition and killing individuals at will. When making a blade, the empu could infuse into the blade any special spiritual qualities and powers the owner desires.


Oh, yes, the kris has all the same sort of legends about it that the katana does for the Japanese, or Excalibur for the English. It might make for a fascinating side-plot for the blade to talk to your protagonist in her sleep...:D

[Kristopher]

Oh, yes, the kris has all the same sort of legends about it that the katana does for the Japanese, or Excalibur for the English. It might make for a fascinating side-plot for the blade to talk to your protagonist in her sleep...:D

That's something like what I was thinking, yeah, at one point, years ago. I just have to be careful about it, evidently the whole intelligent sword thing has been done before.

(When I first came up with the character years ago, I hadn't even heard of Elric, let alone read the books. Then someone said "your white-haired, red-eyed, ashed-skinned protagonist is just an Elric ripoff." **sigh**)

[Kristopher]

Or a pair of butterfly swords?

I hesitate to go East Asian, simply because that seems to be the first place American pop culture goes for "this weapon says I'm a bad man" any more. Although that's mainly the katana. ;)

[Vulcan]

That's something like what I was thinking, yeah, at one point, years ago. I just have to be careful about it, evidently the whole intelligent sword thing has been done before.

(When I first came up with the character years ago, I hadn't even heard of Elric, let alone read the books. Then someone said "your white-haired, red-eyed, ashed-skinned protagonist is just an Elric ripoff." **sigh**)

That's the hardest part of coming up with anything original nowadays. Even if you've never heard of something that sounds like what you're trying to do, there is so much fantasy/sci-fi fiction out there that it's likely that someone else has already done what you're thinking of. :(