Two-Weapon Fighting (long post)

[JamesG]

There was some discussion on the boards about the Two-Weapon Fighting skill, and how its cost is inefficient as compared to Combat Skill Levels with Sweep. Some optional remedies were suggested on the FAQ page:


Q: Why should a character buy Two-Weapon Fighting (10 points) when he can simply buy two 2-point Combat Skill Levels with Sweep, and define the special effect as “fighting with a weapon in each hand”?

A: The cost for TWF is calculated based on CSLs to counteract the Sweep penalty, and Ambidexterity to counter the standard Off-Hand Penalty.

If you’re going to use the Sweep maneuver as a standard option in the campaign, the alternate route you suggest works better from a point-accounting standpoint.

However, not all campaigns use that Maneuver — it is specifically listed as optional — and for them, the more “traditional” TWF Skill might be appropriate even if characters normally cannot Sweep.

If you still want to use TWF as-is, but encourage people to take it instead of just two CSLs with Sweep, tack some other benefit onto it. For example, maybe if a character has TWF, he only suffers a -2 DCV penalty, instead of 1/2 DCV.

Q: Can a character with Two-Weapon Fighting Hold one of his attacks, or make one and then Abort the other to Block, or choose a Strike and Block as his two attacks?

A: Two-Weapon Fighting is based on, and uses, the mechanic for Rapid Fire/Sweep. As such, it constitutes a single maneuver. A character can’t Hold half of it, anymore than he could, for example, Hold half a Haymaker or half a Disarm. Similarly, he can’t Abort half of it, nor can he choose to perform a defensive action like Block — Sweep involves attacks, not defenses.

However, for those who think Two-Weapon Fighting is overpriced (see above), what this question describes — the ability to “split” the attack and Hold half, or Abort half — might be feasible as an “extra function” for the Skill, in the GM’s discretion.


These optional benefits for TWF also appear in FH5 on page 96.

Since I like the idea of TWF (despite its questionable historical realism), and do want to encourage players to take it instead of CSLs with Sweep, I’m inclined to allow both abilities. But some additional rules need to be placed around the second ability to spell it out more clearly.

Whenever performing a maneuver that could be part of a TWF combination, the player must declare whether he is using TWF or taking a single action. If using TWF, any drawbacks (such as the –2 DCV) take effect immediately and last until his next phase.
When making a TWF maneuver, a player may make a combo move (strike-strike, block-strike, bind-strike, etc) or make a single maneuver and hold the second. In the latter case, the held action cannot be taken until the next segment at the earliest. Of course, if the original maneuver was a block, additional blocks can be performed at the standard –2 per block without impacting the held action.
Characters using TWF may perform a double block (a block-block combo). What this means is if they fail to block the attack with their initial roll, they may immediately attempt a second block against that attack. If a player declares a double block and succeeds with the first block attempt, then the second block can be held. A character who declared a double block can also double block additional attacks that are launched at him before his next phase, but the –2 per additional block penalty can add up very quickly.
A player who decides to perform a maneuver and hold the second cannot change his mind and make it a combo move if the initial maneuver does not work out as expected.


These two additional abilities, particularly the second, make TWF fairly powerful. To keep it balanced, I’m thinking of adding a couple of new restrictions.
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In some other game systems, TWF abilities are typically limited to lighter weapons, and I visualize TWF as being done with relatively light weapons. But by the current rules it is just as easy to use TWF with a pair of Battle Axes as it is a Rapier and dagger (assuming the character is strong enough). I propose penalties for using the skill with heavier weapons. At first I thought about basing the limits on the STR Mins of the weapons, but I think the new weapons tables are basically pretty whacked in that regard (but that’s another rant). So I settled on Damage Classes instead. If the combined DC total of the primary and secondary weapon is 6 or less, there is no penalty. Any greater and the following OCV penalties are incurred:
- DC total 7: -1 OCV primary weapon, -2 secondary
- DC total 8: -2 OCV primary weapon, -4 secondary
- DC total 9: -3 OCV primary weapon, -6 secondary
Etc.
For the purpose of this rule, the DC rating of a weapon should be modified as follows:
- Add 1 to the DC rating of a weapon that has +1 Stun Mult or Indirect (Hammers and Flails) or 2 if it has both.
- Add 2 to the DC rating for AP or Penetrating weapons.
- Add 1 DC for L weapons, add 2 for L2 weapons
- Subtract 1 for S weapons.
Penalty skill levels can be used to offset these minuses.
If using an alternate weapons table which bases the STR Min off of active points, like Geoff Speare’s, you can use combined STR Min to set the penalty thresholds with greater granularity.
TWF is a highly specialized skill, you can’t do it with just any two weapons. When purchased, you must specify the pair of weapons it works with. Additional pairs can be purchased for one CP each. Using the skill with weapon pairs not purchased entails the standard –3 unfamiliar weapon penalty. GMs can optionally reduce the penalty somewhat if the weapons used are similar to pairs that the character knows.
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Since limiting effective use of TWF to lighter weapons is a significant restriction, you might want to tack an additional bonus to the skill. I’m thinking of allowing the Rapid Attack skill to cancel the DCV penalty in addition to making TWF a half phase action.

The intended result of these suggestions is to make TWF “feel” distinctly different than Sweep. And note that CSLs with Sweep still have their place. Characters wielding heavy weapons can make good use of them, though the practitioner of TWF will be more versatile.

In addition to comments on this proposal, I’d be interested in hearing other’s experiences with the TWF skill and any special rules they introduced for it.

[JMHammer]

To make Two-Weapon Fighting worth its points, I use the rule as written and add the following:

1- If a character with TWF makes a sweep attack composed of exactly two attacks defined as one attack from each of the two weapons in use, and makes both of these attacks against the same target, the character does not suffer any DCV penalty from the sweep.

2- If a character with TWF (HTH) has one valid weapon in each hand, but uses only one of them - or neither of them - to attack, he gains +1 DCV vs HTH attacks and +1 OCV to perform the Block maneuver. This bonus is not cumulative with any DCV bonus that might be provided by the weapon type, such as that provided by a main-gauche.

3- A character with TWF may ready for combat use two weapons already on his person with a single half-phase action unless some other rule or accepted practice allows this to occur more quickly.

I don't allow many Multiple Power Attacks, which makes TWF even more valuable in my games. I do allow characters that have, say, both Energy Blast and Flash - defined as different settings on the same weapon or different aspects of their innate ability to zap things our of their own bodies - to define using both as an MPA. Similarly, a character with a no-range Drain can apply that effect plus a punch or other HTH maneuver with the Drain as an MPA in most cases, depending on special effect. However, Tommy Two-Guns can't have a pair of Colt Peacemakers and MPA with them.

John H

[Nevenall]

I have a really dubious way of building TWC.
Rather then use the Sweep mechanic, I have characters buy a limited form of Speed which allows then to use their other 1/2 phase action for a combat manuever, provided they haven't used it for something else, like movement.
Because you buy it in levels, if you only have 1 level of TWC then you can only choose one phase per turn when you make a second combat manuever. However, you can make both an attack and a block, or a block and a disarm. You can combine pairs of combat manuevers easily.
There is no break on End cost, or Ambidexterity.
For a speed of 4 it comes out slightly more expensive then the official version. Especially if you buy ambidexterity.
There are some really interesting implications, especially in assigning Combat skill levels.

+1 Speed 10 Points
Only to make a second ½ Phase combat maneuver (-¼)
OAF Maneuver must be based on off-hand weapon (-1)
Only for Tight Group of Weapons (-¾)
Only up to character’s existing Speed (-¼)
Real Cost: 3 points

[Markdoc]

My preferred way to buy TWF (and I'll say up front I realise that TWF historically was both rare and not obviously more effective than OWF, so this is "movie TWF" I am talking about) is to buy an autofire attack.

For example:
TWF (1 d6 HKA, autofire, requires two hands (-1/4), STR Min (-1/4), OIF weapon of opportunity (-1/2), cannot do more damage than weapon would normally (-1/4). Active cost: 22, real cost 10.

This lets an average strength fighter dish out two or more 1 1/2 d6 attacks, equivalent to using two light weapons and they can fight with anything (two handaxes, a long sword and dagger, etc). A massive barbarian could use the same approach to fight with a bastard sword and a battle axe, but he'd have to shell out more points to get the full benefit.

if the technique is for a specified pair of weapons (matched scimitars, or rapier and main gauche, etc) then I give an extra -1/4 limitation. I don't go to the full OAF penalty since the characters can carry more than one weapon, get another one from a fallen foe, etc.

This approach lets you attack multiple separate foes, attack the same one multiple times, etc. It does not let you attack once and hold a weapon in reserve as a parry: but you can do that by buying a seperate power (for example, a triggered forcewall) to simulate it.

Finally since the two weapons are basically just a special effect, I don't bother with ambidexterity.

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Originally posted by JMHammer


2- If a character with TWF (HTH) has one valid weapon in each hand, but uses only one of them - or neither of them - to attack, he gains +1 DCV vs HTH attacks and +1 OCV to perform the Block maneuver.

I thought a character fighting with two weapons already gets a +1DCV.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by JamesG

TWF is a highly specialized skill, you can’t do it with just any two weapons. When purchased, you must specify the pair of weapons it works with. Additional pairs can be purchased for one CP each. Using the skill with weapon pairs not purchased entails the standard –3 unfamiliar weapon penalty. GMs can optionally reduce the penalty somewhat if the weapons used are similar to pairs that the character knows.

The reason TWF is so expensive is because it covers the use of any weapon (as long as you have WF). Why would you impose an additional penalty on something people already consider overpriced?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Some interesting options here!

What I've decided to use is this:

Two Weapon Fighting is a Weapon Familiarity. Thus, anyone attemting to use two weapons without the proper training (i.e. purchasing the skill) is subject to the "unskilled" penalty of -3 OCV, in addition to any off-hand penalties as well. (Don't try this at home, kids!)

Additionaly, Two Weapon Fighting gives the following benefits:

Weapon Familiarity: Off-hand is absorbed into the skill. Thus those who purchase Two Weapon Fighting have no need to purchase WF: Off-hand. Thus, whenever a character using TWF does not use their second weapon to attack, they gain a +1DCV bonus against Hand to Hand attacks.

Enhanced Blocking: Two Weapon Fighting specialists can perform 2 blocks without penalty, per phase. Additional blocks incur the standard -2 OCV penalty as normal. This effect is supposed to make it slightly easier for Two Weapon fighters to defend themselves against multiple attackers, as many movie and TV shows depicts.

These are the additional features I've added to Two Weapon Fighting to make it more attractive to players over the Skill Levels to Sweep option. Also, I believe it brings the ability a bit more in line with its 10 point pricing. Other than the above changes, the skill is treated as per the rules in the 5E (follows the rules for sweep etc)