For Those Of You Keeping Score At Home...

[Steve Long]

So, having finished all my preparatory work, I'm ready to start reading the 6E forum posts, and have just locked all the threads.

By my count, the final total is 1,142 pages' worth of threads. Unsurprisingly, the largest single thread, at 315 pages, is Characteristics; tied for shortest, at 13 pages each, are Environment and Equipment.

Looks like I have some interesting reading ahead of me. ;)

[L. Marcus]

. . . I hope you read as fast as you type . . .

[Nolgroth]

Good luck and God speed. You're gonna need both before this is done. ;)

[Lord Liaden]

Your definition of "interesting reading" may change before you're finished. :sneaky:

But I do hope you find the process ultimately helpful.

[Peregrine]

Separating the wheat from the chaff alone is a superheroic task....

[The Main Man]

You're a trooper, Mr. Long.

All that I want for 6e is world peace.

There, now all of my ideas should make it into the book because I'm not being selfish. ;)

[Chris Goodwin]

Uhhh, please allow me to apologize for any part I played in getting the total that high... :eek:

[Steve Long]

Pffft, no apologies necessary. :hex: I'm glad to see that the project has garnered enough enthusiasm to lead to such a level of response! I'm sure it's also generated some regrettable vitriol, pointless extremism, bizarre speculation, and needless worrying, but that's the nature of debate on the Internet. ;) Even if there's a bit of chaff in there, I'm sure there's plenty of wheat for me to make bread with. ;)

[Markdoc]

Well, there was some needless heat generated (including by me, probably :D) but at the same time, there was sufficient meat to the discussion to change my mind on several points.

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Overall, it was an interesting discussion, and a lot of ideas came out of it. I suspect a lot of the discussion won't be directly useful, but it will, at a minimum, indicate those areas that need a little extra attention, since they are clearly important to at least a subgroup of players. Those areas that generate the most heat may be those areas where alternative rules are most desirable, even if they need to be presented in later books than the core rules.

Good luck, Steve - hopefully your eyeballs haven't melted yet.

[Hugh Neilson]

As for vitriol, you'll get just as much from a thread on PC vs Mac (looks down page...uh,oh...).

And it says something positive about the game itself that people can get passionate about changes to its rules.

[Steve Long]

Just as a little update (again for those keeping score at home)...

Today I put in a good long work day (aided in part by the fact that WoW has been down all day for maintenance, no doubt ;)) and read all 163 pages of the "General Issues" thread. Ideally I'd like to maintain a pace of about 150 pages or more day, which would mean about 8 days' worth of work to read all the posts. Not sure if that'll be possible but I'm going to try.

I don't think that particular thread changed my fundamental thinking about any of the major issues, but I did find an idea or three and a nugget or two that got copied into my Notes file for serious consideration. And it was of course heartening to see so much intense discussion, even if it often drifted far afield, became ridiculously overcomplicated, or totally ignored the general rules of the forum. ;)

[ghost-angel]

WoW will be "down for maintenance" for a few days if all goes according to plan...

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't think that particular thread changed my fundamental thinking about any of the major issues, but I did find an idea or three and a nugget or two that got copied into my Notes file for serious consideration. And it was of course heartening to see so much intense discussion, even if it often drifted far afield, became ridiculously overcomplicated, or totally ignored the general rules of the forum. ;)

I await the series of posts setting out which page should have changed your mind about a major issue...I suspect it will appear right above the post where you lock this thread. ;)

Mind you, the major issues (which I take to be the ones you highlight in your first post to the thread) seemed rather lacking in controversy on that thread.

Good luck maintaining the pace, and I hope you get some value out of the volume.

[Steve Long]

the major issues (which I take to be the ones you highlight in your first post to the thread)

Yes, that's what I meant. I'm certainly not saying that there might not be major issues on a topic that aren't covered by my initial post in each thread; in fact I'd expect to find at least one or two overall, since I can't think of everything. ;) But so far at least my intro posts seem to have done a good job sparking/guiding discussion, so I have to consider the hours I spent working them up time well spent. :hex:

[Steve Long]

Whew! Finished Characteristics yesterday, and after a workin' Saturday have now finished Skills. That puts me just a bit under halfway through.

[L. Marcus]

"This is where the fun begins!"

[ajackson]

"This is where the fun begins!"
Well, at least he's past the com and figured stat flame wars. I don't remember anything quite so tedious elsewhere.

[Steve Long]

It's not really that they're tedious. (OK, maybe the endless, constant cycling of the same arguments about COM was. ;) ) It's that I enjoy talking about HERO so much, and reading other peoples' thoughts about it, that it's like a constant diet of chocolate cake. That much rich food isn't good for you no matter how good it tastes. ;)

That, and so much reading on the screen tends to give me headaches. So I've been trying to spell myself with breaks where I write instead of read. ;)

[Chris Goodwin]

Characteristics were probably one of the hard parts.

Oh, and for the record, we weren't just recycling the same arguments about COM. We were recycling the same arguments about COM and Figured Characteristics. :lol:

[ajackson]

We were recycling the same arguments about COM and Figured Characteristics. :lol:
The number of arguments being recycled, however, was higher for figured characteristics.

[Steve Long]

I agree, Chris, but I must now note that the Great Comeliness Debate also seems to have sucked up about half the Perks & Talents thread. So clearly a lot of people (or a few people willing to post a lot, take your pick) are very interested in the topic. ;)

And now... on to Powers!

[Edsel]

I only posted once or twice in each thread. I stated my opinions and never saw anything that made me want to change them. I did my part to keep thread clutter down.

[Hugh Neilson]

Oh, and for the record, we weren't just recycling the same arguments about COM. We were recycling the same arguments about COM and Figured Characteristics. :lol:

In our defense, Earth Day keeps telling us recycling is good. I wish these so-called EXPERTS would make up their minds!

[BobGreenwade]

And now I find myself really, really hoping Steve read my Haymaker! article on Comeliness.... :)

(The one on smell, not so much, at least until the new superpowers book is in the prep stage.)

[ajackson]

Trying to think what's left that sucked up a large number of posts. Probably adjustment powers/aid, killing attacks, and the SPD chart.

[Patriot]

Crosses fingers for Invulnerability to make it in x

[Doc Democracy]

Whew! Finished Characteristics yesterday, and after a workin' Saturday have now finished Skills. That puts me just a bit under halfway through.

Respect.

5 days to wade through all of that. How do you manage to keep reading (I mean really reading rather than just processing the words)?


Doc

[Steve Long]

It's all part of the Zen required to fulfill the awesome responsibilities of being HERO System Line Developer. ;)

[ghost-angel]

He gets a little extra something in his pay envelope each week.

[Patriot]

He gets a little extra something in his pay envelope each week.

I hope the 2 -10 packs of pez, a box of ho-ho's , and a jolt cola are gonna be enough!

[Steve Long]

He gets a little extra something in his pay envelope each week.

Hold on just a damn minute here. I'm supposed to get paid to do this job?!? :eek: :nonp: :eek:

[aylwin13]

Hold on just a damn minute here. I'm supposed to get paid to do this job?!? :eek: :nonp: :eek:
You guys told me he did it out of love of the game.

[lemming]

Hold on just a damn minute here. I'm supposed to get paid to do this job?!? :eek: :nonp: :eek:

You might want to have a chat with Darren...

[Patriot]

You might want to have a chat with Darren...

YES SIR LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, FOR TICKETS TO "THE BRAWL FOR IT ALL"
send a S.A.S.E to

D.O.J.
PO BOX 1776
:thumbup:

[Derek Hiemforth]

YES SIR LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, FOR TICKETS TO "THE BRAWL FOR IT ALL"
send a S.A.S.E to

D.O.J.
PO BOX 1776
:thumbup:I dunno... if it was a cage match featuring all the Hero Games folks, I think I'd have to put my money on...


Tina. :D

[Hugh Neilson]

Hold on just a damn minute here. I'm supposed to get paid to do this job?!? :eek: :nonp: :eek:

This might be more credible if you came from a background that did not carefully and meticulously surcharge for copying, faxing, postage and the use of paper clips and staples.

[Accountants deal with lawyers, by the way ;)]

[ghost-angel]

Don't forget if you call two clients from an airport you bill both of them for travel expenses.

[Nolgroth]

Don't forget if you call two clients from an airport you bill both of them for travel expenses.And a cell phone surcharge. Those minutes are expensive after all. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

I dunno... if it was a cage match featuring all the Hero Games folks, I think I'd have to put my money on...


Tina. :DNo way. She hits like a girl. ;)

[Chris Goodwin]

No way. She hits like a girl. ;)

Spoken as one who has never been hit by her..... :eek:

[ajackson]

Spoken as one who has never been hit by her..... :eek:
He never specified what a girl hits like.

[Steve Long]

Believe me, I do not at all miss having to keep track of my entire day in 6-minute increments. (Or even the more profitable 15-minute increment.) ;)

[L. Marcus]

. . . Whom should one bill one's coffee breaks? :)

[BobGreenwade]

Believe me, I do not at all miss having to keep track of my entire day in 6-minute increments. (Or even the more profitable 15-minute increment.) ;)What about 12-second increments? ;)

[IndianaJoe3]

What about 12-second increments? ;)

Hmmm... if you bill by the Turn, and you buy your SPD up, should you increase your rate or switch to billing by the Phase? :D

[Chris Goodwin]

What I want to know is, what do I need to buy to switch my pay cycle from Per Month to Per Segment? :rofl:

[Lord Liaden]

Steve, I hope you'll post here if you do read something HERO-related that actually changes your mind. I don't expect you to tell us what it is, but I for one would feel like we won something. :D

[Derek Hiemforth]

No way. She hits like a girl. ;)


Spoken as one who has never been hit by her..... :eek:Seriously. I once saw her pick Jason up, lift him over her head, put him through an airplane spin, and drop him... :eek: :eek:

[Steve Long]

Steve, I hope you'll post here if you do read something HERO-related that actually changes your mind. I don't expect you to tell us what it is, but I for one would feel like we won something.

OK, I understand that you're just having fun, and in particular I know that you, LL, wouldn't deliberately be insulting (unlike more than a few people on these boards whom I could name). But nevertheless, this is insulting. You seem to be implying that I am somehow always wrong, or that only the fans know what's "right" and somehow have to persuade the Big, Tyrannical Line Developer of what a moron he is.

And I resent that, frankly. Not only do I think it proceeds from some faulty assumptions, but it paints me in an unfair light. The blunt fact is that someone has to make the final decisions, and that someone is me -- the guy who was willing to quit his job and put his life savings on the line to buy the Hero Games assets and step into the position of Line Developer. The mere fact that I set up an entire discussion board, and am now reading through 1,200 pages of posts covering nearly every aspect of the HERO System, should be proof that I welcome feedback and am open to other peoples' ideas. That doesn't mean that I can't have ideas of my own or express my preferences; I'm not a blank slate and this book is not being written by committee (for what I should hope would be obvious reasons). But to think of changing my mind as a "victory" is not only wrong, it's just plain unfair and mean-spirited.

As always, my offer stands: if one of you thinks you can do my job better, buy me out and take it. I didn't just stand on the sidelines tossing brickbats at the former owners and impugning their motives; I thought I could do better, so I made the necessary sacrifices and got myself the job. Anyone who thinks he can do my job better is welcome to try to do the same.

[Doc Democracy]

I didn't just stand on the sidelines tossing brickbats at the former owners and impugning their motives; I thought I could do better, so I made the necessary sacrifices and got myself the job.

I don't remember you tossing those brickbats! Nice to know that if you were it was backed up with action!! :)

You should write a diary of writing the 6th edition though - when you step down as line editor you can write your memoirs as Line Editor and the processes you went through - I'll bet it gets better sales than almost anything except the core rules.


Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Believe me, I do not at all miss having to keep track of my entire day in 6-minute increments. (Or even the more profitable 15-minute increment.) ;)

LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALA

The 6 minute increment is metric, isn't it, in that it divides the hour in 10?

I will confess to a certain former partner who, at some time, requested of me that, had I any power over selection of a gift when he ultimately retired, it be "anything but a #@^ing watch" because "after 40 years of tracking my life in six minute increments, I won't even have a clock in my house".

As a member of another profession where time tracking is key, I will say that those courses in creative writing we think are wasted in business school turn out to have a lot more relevance in the business world than we may have believed at the time...

To the more serious point just aboive, I'm trying to think of a reasonable reply and I can't. I drafted one, but reading it, I think it serves little purpose. As a Hero fan, I hope 6e is a resounding success. But if it isn't, I can shrug and say "OK, stick with 5e". I don't have my continued employment (in an environment not conducive to easily replacing same) or a big chunk of my net worth tied up in the success or failure of Hero. Steve does. I can't imagine anyone being more motivated to make 6e the best it can possibly be. Unlike many other game designers, Steve can't just move on to the next project with no major repercussions if this project is not a success.

Steve set up the 6e boards. He monitored them to cut off threads not serving his purpose. He's reading thousands of pages that many of the rest of us stopped reading months ago, or only skimmed, or freely stated "I have not read what has gone before" and then raised issues already discussed in detail. If he wasn't serious about considering this feedback, why would he have bothered?

I recall an old Marvel soapbox where Stan Lee expressed a bit of frustration that, if Marvel made a mistake, they were "letting down the fans", and if they had a success they were in it for the bucks. The fact that Hero had a 5e, much less a 6e, is largely because Steve put his net worth at risk and made it happen. The fact that DoJ is still around, while numerous other game companies have fallen, speaks for itself as to his success in that regard. I'm nervous about many of the proposals for 6e, but I don't believe ANYONE could do a better job balancing the concerns and improving on a great system at the outset. If I don't like 6e, that will be because of my personal preferences, and not because it will be poorly thought out or implemented with less than top quality skill.

Sorry, Steve - I seem to have repp'd you too recently. And I seem to have rambled on more than enough - you don't need me, or anyone else, to defend you. But I just couldn't let that one pass, despite knowing the initial post was in jest.

[ghost-angel]

The only thing we have to win is the continued option to purchase products created for our preferred gaming system.

The mere act of publishing a book - any book - is a win by me.

[Steve Long]

I should add, lest anyone think I am hogging the spotlight, that I'm certainly not the only investor in DOJ. I couldn't have afforded to buy the Hero Games assets myself; it took a team effort, and it's proven to be a successful one that I wouldn't have missed for anything in the world.

I'm just the only one of the investors whose investment was contingent on his being the sole voice of authority over the HERO System rules. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

I think we all do understand that the final say in these things is yours, Steve, and I certainly don't mean any disrespect when I say that I'm suffering from curiosity bordering on high anxiety regarding your decisions about (for example) COM, Figured Characteristics, and roll high/roll low.

But I think the original intent of the question was simply to ask whether we, as fans and posters, actually helped you change your mind on any issues, whether they're the above or something else. We know you respect our opinions and thought processes; otherwise you wouldn't have opened up the forums to input. And you should know we respect your writing and decision-making; otherwise we wouldn't buy your books and recommend them to others. I think the original poster of the question just wants to know (and so do I, as it happens, especially since I'm often not very good at it) whether we were successful, from your perspective, in laying out ideas in a sufficiently intelligent and persuasive manner to change your initial inclinations.

[Steve Long]

Sure, I understand what LL meant; as I said right off the bat, I know that he (in particular) would never deliberately be insulting. I've rarely seen someone online who phrases things so diplomatically! His phrasing just put a burr under my saddle about the attitudes and posting habits of some frequenters of these boards.

For the most part, I would rather not start revealing changes and thought processes while 6E is in development. For the most part I think all that's going to accomplish is a lot of complaining and a lot of repetition of arguments made (and repeated, and repeated, and repeated...) on the 6E Forum. However, I can make a couple of general statements.

First, while a huge percentage of the 6E posts tend not to add anything significant to the overall discussion (note: I did not say "detract from"), many good and valid ideas have been raised. Even if I ultimately don't use them, it's still gratifying to see them expressed.

Second, where I have my own opinions about something, the arguments raised by people who feel differently have often caused me to think much longer and more deeply about the issue. Sometimes they have changed my mind; sometimes they have not. But even where they haven't, I believe that focusing my attention on an issue improves the overall process, and thus the end result.

Now, with all that in mind, as an experiment I will answer two of your implicit questions. But this comes with a caveat: if doing so leads to a lot of complaining, to a repeat of discussions already held on the 6E Forums, to a lot of angry statements, or any other such crap, this is absolutely the last time I will do this. I will never again answer any such questions, and you will simply have to wait for the release of 6E to find out what's going on. So:

--the HERO System will not switch to "roll high"; the existing roll 3d6 roll low rule will remain in place. IMO no compelling argument for switching has been presented.

--Comeliness is being removed as a Characteristic and replaced with a Striking Appearance Talent. A game element that exists primarily to affect rolls made with a Characteristic (i.e., Interaction Skill rolls, in this case) isn't itself a Characteristic; it's a Talent. If you don't want your character's appearance to have any game effect, just describe him as being as good-looking (or ugly) as you want; no one cares. But if you want it to have an in-game effect, buy the Talent.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I agree that I don't think LL was trying to be insulting, but were I in Steve's place, I think I'd feel insulted too. I'll gently suggest that perhaps it would be more appropriate to express a hope that the community has been useful in helping Steve make up his mind about various points, rather than implying that it was necessary to succeed in forcing him to change his mind...

[ghost-angel]

As Derek said... The question isn't

"Did we change your mind on anything?" (inevitably some people will not want his mind changed on certain things... some will)

The question needs to be:

Did we help Steve with his decisions (whatever they are) regarding 6E?

[Steve Long]

And the answer to that question is, "Yes, absolutely." (Just check out the title of the Friday update tomorrow for proof of my opinion on the matter. ;) ) The whole process has been invaluable and worked just as I'd hoped... and heck, I still have three threads to read through. ;)

[ajackson]

Also, the question isn't "Did we win". The 6e boards were not an argument (well, the 6e boards had plenty of arguments, but that wasn't their fundamental role).

[BobGreenwade]

--Comeliness is being removed as a Characteristic and replaced with a Striking Appearance Talent. A game element that exists primarily to affect rolls made with a Characteristic (i.e., Interaction Skill rolls, in this case) isn't itself a Characteristic; it's a Talent. If you don't want your character's appearance to have any game effect, just describe him as being as good-looking (or ugly) as you want; no one cares. But if you want it to have an in-game effect, buy the Talent.As sorry as I am to learn this, I'm still going to buy the books. In fact, I'll buy the 6E rulebooks and the Advanced book regardless of anything else, and base any further decisions on what I see there and in the corresponding edition of Hero Designer.

I owe at least that much to the second most brilliant mind in Herodom. ;)

[Steve Long]

As I was discussing with someone the other day, while we don't currently plan to produce multiple APGs, there's always that possibility. I want the first APG to stick to relatively "plausible" ideas and not get bogged down presenting 27 options for every little thing or trying to break stuff down to the "atomic" level. To put it another way, I want it to be broadly useful to a lot of Hero gamers, not get bogged down in theorycraft and wonkiness.

However, I'm not against the idea of an "APG2" that totally gives in to my (and others') love of theorycraft and wonkiness. Basically I would go back through the 6E Forums (a-gain ::sigh:: ) and pull out a lot of the cool and interesting ideas, slap them together into some semi-coherent state with a minimum (hopefully) of editing, and toss it into the ring with the lions accompanied by a "Watch out! None of this is approved or tested!" warning. Then I sit back to watch the fun. ;) IOW, it would sort of a book of random and unusual Hero variant rules written by the fans.

To put it another way: just because I don't use an idea from the 6E Forum doesn't mean there might not be some value to that idea, somewhere down the line.

[Lord Mhoram]

--the HERO System will not switch to "roll high"; the existing roll 3d6 roll low rule will remain in place. IMO no compelling argument for switching has been presented.

--Comeliness is being removed as a Characteristic and replaced with a Striking Appearance Talent. A game element that exists primarily to affect rolls made with a Characteristic (i.e., Interaction Skill rolls, in this case) isn't itself a Characteristic; it's a Talent. If you don't want your character's appearance to have any game effect, just describe him as being as good-looking (or ugly) as you want; no one cares. But if you want it to have an in-game effect, buy the Talent.

Thanks for answering Steve.

I know I am one of, if not the, poster child for anti-6th ed stuff on the boards (deserved or not :) ), but I appreciate you letting us know how the discussions impacted your thinking, and what the results are.

I'm personally more often interested in the why's of the game design choices than I am in the end result - I know how I run my game so many times a specific yes/no answer on how something works, while useful, isn't as much fun for me (I'd already implemented my answer). I'd love to see the thought processes behind the decisions. But as a GM I understand the arguments that could get drudged up for that, even more so for the Game Designer.

I am interested in seeing 6th - if for nothing else bits I can steal even if I don't make the switch (and while I have opinions, I will not make my mind up for sure until I see the books).

[Doc Democracy]

For the most part, I would rather not start revealing changes and thought processes while 6E is in development.

A constant stream of leaks that are true remove the excitement of a brand new edition. It's like learning the gender of the baby before it is born - it takes away something primal...


For the most part I think all that's going to accomplish is a lot of complaining and a lot of repetition of arguments made (and repeated, and repeated, and repeated...) on the 6E Forum.

I can't believe that simply reading those forums would give you the impression that we would grasp the opportunity to rehash mindless arguments repeatedly. I thought we were more subtle than that. :)


Sometimes they have changed my mind; sometimes they have not. But even where they haven't, I believe that focusing my attention on an issue improves the overall process, and thus the end result.

If you are anything like me then your mind will probably change on particular details at least once if not twice before you are finished...telling people about each time you change your mind makes you end up looking indecisive rather than contemplative...


Now, with all that in mind, as an experiment I will answer two of your implicit questions. But this comes with a caveat: if doing so leads to a lot of complaining, to a repeat of discussions already held on the 6E Forums, to a lot of angry statements, or any other such crap, this is absolutely the last time I will do this. I will never again answer any such questions, and you will simply have to wait for the release of 6E to find out what's going on.

Do you have a four year old. I seem to be using this same script over and over again! :D


Doc

[Lord Liaden]

OK, I understand that you're just having fun, and in particular I know that you, LL, wouldn't deliberately be insulting (unlike more than a few people on these boards whom I could name). But nevertheless, this is insulting. You seem to be implying that I am somehow always wrong, or that only the fans know what's "right" and somehow have to persuade the Big, Tyrannical Line Developer of what a moron he is.

Mr. Long, I'm profoundly sorry. As you guessed, I didn't intend to cast aspersions on you, or imply that you don't have the ability and the right to make decisions about the Hero System. What I had in mind when I wrote that was how you've often remarked that you doubted you would change your positions on any of the major issues, but were open to convincing arguments; and how passionately obstinate some posters have been that doing things other than how they recommend is somehow "wrong." I thought I was making fun of the latter position rather than you.

It never occurred to me at the time, but I now see how my phrasing could readily be viewed as insulting, particularly given the context you describe. I should have learned by now to consider what I write on the Internet more carefully, and not throw out off-the-cuff remarks. This is entirely my fault, and I offer my humble apologies to you, and to any of my board colleagues I may have inadvertently offended. I hope my error in judgement won't derail the fun and interesting discussions on this thread any further.

[Steve Long]

No worries -- like I said, few people are more diplomatic here than you. Just had to get that burr out from under my saddle. ;)

(Man, every time I say something like that, it makes me want to write Western Hero. :hex:)

[Steve Long]

I'm personally more often interested in the why's of the game design choices than I am in the end result - I know how I run my game so many times a specific yes/no answer on how something works, while useful, isn't as much fun for me (I'd already implemented my answer). I'd love to see the thought processes behind the decisions. But as a GM I understand the arguments that could get drudged up for that, even more so for the Game Designer.

I actually love to talk game design, philosophy, and theory, especially about the HERO System. I just prefer to do it in person where tempers don't fly and there's no written evidence. :eg:

(Burn the tapes!)

I have this dream where I win the lottery and I can set up a "HeroCon" where I can subsidize people's airfare and hotel rooms so we can all get together and play/talk Hero for an entire weekend. Complete with Hexman-shaped chocolate chip cookies! Unfortunately the winning ticket continues to elude me. ;)

[Steve Long]

I can't believe that simply reading those forums would give you the impression that we would grasp the opportunity to rehash mindless arguments repeatedly. I thought we were more subtle than that.

LOL. It was the hundred or so pages on Comeliness that tipped me off. (Made my Concealment roll.) Though even repetition can have value on occasion.


If you are anything like me then your mind will probably change on particular details at least once if not twice before you are finished...telling people about each time you change your mind makes you end up looking indecisive rather than contemplative...

Yes, that's a very valid point. Unless I've absolutely, positively, unequivocally made up my mind, maybe five or ten seconds before we send the book to the printer :) , a new idea may strike.


Do you have a four year old. I seem to be using this same script over and over again!

Good lord, no. I can barely take care of a cat. :eek: ;)

[ghost-angel]

(Man, every time I say something like that, it makes me want to write Western Hero. :hex:)

Embrace this feeling. Go with this feeling. The feeling is your friend. . .

[Derek Hiemforth]

Embrace this feeling. Go with this feeling. The feeling is your friend. . .Seriously. Steve, if you get that winning lotto ticket, maybe the best service you could do for the HERO community would be to write all those books that would be uber-cool, but probably not profitable... starting with Western Hero. :D




Heck... we could probably arrange for that if *I* get that winning ticket too... ;)

[L. Marcus]

. . . If I ever won a lot of money ($10 mil or over), I'd invest in DoJ, no strings attached. That'd be fun!

[Patriot]

. . . If I ever won a lot of money ($10 mil or over), I'd invest in DoJ, no strings attached. That'd be fun!

Can I be the staff chef?:D

[Steve Long]

Hey, having a staff chef would rock! I can barely heat soup. Can you make potato skins? Tina and I both love 'em (bacon bits on the side).

While we're at it, I think we need an office bartender.

[Steve Long]

Steve, if you get that winning lotto ticket, maybe the best service you could do for the HERO community would be to write all those books that would be uber-cool, but probably not profitable... starting with Western Hero.

If I really hit it big in the lottery I would...

...give all DOJ employees a raise

...hire a couple more, like say a staff artist

...institute a "trade-in" program where gamers could turn in any 4E, 5E, or 5ER core book and get a 6E core book set for the price of shipping and handling, or like $5 in person

...do all those books I want to do that we can't afford to do at present (Western Hero, Victorian Hero, Ultimate Weapon...)

...re-do my favorites from 5E (Pulp Hero, Hudson City, Tuala Morn, Ultimate Skill, etc.) for 6E in full-on living color with top-notch art, with a similar trade-in program

...hire an intern to catalog my library

...make more Hero dice, and all sorts of Hero chachkis

...and buy Darren a talking gorilla sidekick! :D

[Derek Hiemforth]

...hire an intern to catalog my library
...and buy Darren a talking gorilla sidekick! :DI bet these two could be combined! :D

[Steve Long]

Unfortunately, Osiris objects to gorillas due to his longstanding enmity against and frequent battles with Grodd. Human interns only here please. ;)

[Bazza]

If I really hit it big in the lottery I would...

...give all DOJ employees a raise

...hire a couple more, like say a staff artist

...institute a "trade-in" program where gamers could turn in any 4E, 5E, or 5ER core book and get a 6E core book set for the price of shipping and handling, or like $5 in person

...do all those books I want to do that we can't afford to do at present (Western Hero, Victorian Hero, Ultimate Weapon...)

...re-do my favorites from 5E (Pulp Hero, Hudson City, Tuala Morn, Ultimate Skill, etc.) for 6E in full-on living color with top-notch art, with a similar trade-in program

...hire an intern to catalog my library

...make more Hero dice, and all sorts of Hero chachkis

...and buy Darren a talking gorilla sidekick! :D You forgot those licenses that would rock, eg World of Warcraft...

[Bazza]

Unfortunately, Osiris objects to gorillas due to his longstanding enmity against and frequent battles with Grodd. Human interns only here please. ;)

Does that preclude werewolves? Just asking...



I have a friend of a friend...:D

[Steve Long]

I suppose it would be fun to obtain a few licenses that I would enjoy designing games for, though in many cases I'd have to convince the current owners to sell and that might not be possible. I don't think I'd want the WoW license, though, unless part of the deal involved me getting free gear for my toons. ;)

[L. Marcus]

What properties make you drool, Steve? LotR?

[Doc Democracy]

What properties make you drool, Steve? LotR?

He's done that! :) Don't set him easy tasks - make full use of that brain.

I think that HERO needs something that other systems would find nigh on impossible to make work. It also needs to be something geeky enough that you make it impossible for geeks not to buy it but mainstream enough for non-gamers to pick it up coz they like the setting.

Now Star Trek is going to be the big one right now but it has indeed been done to death.

Personally I would love for Steve to set me up with a Star Wars campaign (even though that also has been done to death). D6 was good but didn't do Jedi very well - HERO is a much better mechanic for integrating Jedi and other types.

For settings not explored in games yet - China Mieville's Bas-Lag would be interesting as would Stephen Hunt's Middlesteel.

To showcase HERO you need lots of competing technologies and magicks, that's where the flexibility of the system shines through.

Then of course there is the fanboy aspect - don't know enough about the internals of Mr Long to take a crack at that...

Doc

[Steve Long]

Licensed properties that I would really like to do:

--Star Trek (the *real* Trek, not this damn new movie crap)
--LotR
--the Deryni books of Katherine Kurtz
--the Dying Earth of Jack Vance (and, well, nearly any other major Vance setting, honestly)
--the Marvel Universe (with an, oh, mid-late Eighties focus; I don't care much for a lot of the more recent stuff)
--Dune
--Elric

I have a few other ideas, but I will keep them to myself. :eg:

[JmOz]

. . . If I ever won a lot of money ($10 mil or over), I'd invest in DoJ, no strings attached. That'd be fun!

Well I might put a few strings attached, like I would love to see a book on the genre of super heroes that is similar to Fantacy Hero or Dark Champions, writen (no offence to Steve) but by some of the insiders of the industry (Wolfman, Waid, Geoff Johns)

[Bazza]

At least I know one franchise that _won't_ be considered.

And Steve, when you say Elric, does that imply the whole Eternal Champion saga, or "just Elric".

[ghost-angel]

I have a few other ideas, but I will keep them to myself. :eg:

It's OK Steve... you can admit to us it's your secret desire to do Care Bears Hero and My Little Pony Hero.

We understand. :cool:

[teh bunneh]

It's OK Steve... you can admit to us it's your secret desire to do Care Bears Hero and My Little Pony Hero.

I'd play My Little Pony Hero!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3080/2910554429_df056aef54.jpg

[cptpatriot]

Speaking of licenses, whatever happened with the Witchblade license y'all used to have?


Licensed properties that I would really like to do:

--Star Trek (the *real* Trek, not this damn new movie crap)
--LotR
--the Deryni books of Katherine Kurtz
--the Dying Earth of Jack Vance (and, well, nearly any other major Vance setting, honestly)
--the Marvel Universe (with an, oh, mid-late Eighties focus; I don't care much for a lot of the more recent stuff)
--Dune
--Elric

I have a few other ideas, but I will keep them to myself. :eg:

[rjcurrie]

Speaking of licenses, whatever happened with the Witchblade license y'all used to have?

That license was in the Cybergames days and I suspect it had expired by the time DOJ bought Hero.

[Steve Long]

A few responses...


And Steve, when you say Elric, does that imply the whole Eternal Champion saga, or "just Elric".

I mean "just Elric." I kinda like the Corum books, but most of Moorcock's other Fantasy, while not bad, isn't something I want to re-read to do a game book about.


I would love to see a book on the genre of super heroes that is similar to Fantacy Hero or Dark Champions, writen (no offence to Steve) but by some of the insiders of the industry

Obviously we're fantasizing here, but I can guarantee you one thing: I'm not going to pay a big pile of money for a license and then let someone else write it. I'd love to have the creator available for consultation and brainstorming (as Aaron Williams was with PS238), but make no mistake: I'm writing the book.


Speaking of licenses, whatever happened with the Witchblade license y'all used to have?

It wasn't transferred over when we bought the Hero Games assets from Cybergames, IIRC. Honestly, long before that point I don't know that it was really worth doing, aside from the fact that getting to use all the art for free would've been cool.

[archermoo]

If I really hit it big in the lottery I would...

...give all DOJ employees a raise

...hire a couple more, like say a staff artist



At which point you would of course need to hire a full time IT person to set up and administer your new state of the art computer systems and wide area network to allow for easier and more convenient communication between the different Hero offices. And one that could do double duty as a number checker/playtester...

:D

[ghost-angel]

At which point you would of course need to hire a full time IT person to set up and administer your new state of the art computer systems and wide area network to allow for easier and more convenient communication between the different Hero offices. And one that could do double duty as a number checker/playtester...

:D

Always get two... in case one goes on vacation.

[aylwin13]

With all that money floating around, they'd also want a full-time accounting staff as well. Someone's gotta pay the bills.

[JohnTaber]

At which point you would of course need to hire a full time IT person to set up and administer your new state of the art computer systems and wide area network to allow for easier and more convenient communication between the different Hero offices. And one that could do double duty as a number checker/playtester...

:D

Um...you don't have anyone in mind for that position Archermo do you??? :doi:

[JmOz]

A few responses...

Obviously we're fantasizing here, but I can guarantee you one thing: I'm not going to pay a big pile of money for a license and then let someone else write it. I'd love to have the creator available for consultation and brainstorming (as Aaron Williams was with PS238), but make no mistake: I'm writing the book.



Well fine, then I will just keep my 10 million dollars...

(Oh to dream, to dream)

[SCUBA Hero]

A few thoughts:


I have this dream where I win the lottery and I can set up a "HeroCon" where I can subsidize people's airfare and hotel rooms so we can all get together and play/talk Hero for an entire weekend. Complete with Hexman-shaped chocolate chip cookies! Unfortunately the winning ticket continues to elude me. ;)HeroCon is possibly do-able without subsidation. I know of one game system (Harn) that has run HarnCon for multiple years, and another (Star Fleet Battles) that is seriously considering doing the same. Waitaminute... hasn't one of our posters already organized a small HeroCon? :think: Details escape me at the moment. I'd have to check with SCUBA Heroine on the feasibility of making hex-shaped chocolate chip cookies. :hex: On a more serious note, she has had a major role in organizing and executing a major (non-gaming) industry conference, and could bring those skills to bear in bringing HeroCon to reality...


If I really hit it big in the lottery I would...

(snip)

...do all those books I want to do that we can't afford to do at present (Western Hero, Victorian Hero, Ultimate Weapon...)Also possibly do-able. Columbia Games has a pre-order system - folks commit to buying a certain game if/when it is produced, and when the "magic number" of pre-orders is hit, the game goes into production.


Licensed properties that I would really like to do:

--Star Trek (the *real* Trek, not this damn new movie crap)

(snip)Well.... :whistle:

[Lord Liaden]

Waitaminute... hasn't one of our posters already organized a small HeroCon? :think: Details escape me at the moment.

Michael "Susano" Surbrook has organized "HEROCon" for the past three years. As witness:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48302
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48835
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49056
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53427
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50859
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62939

[SCUBA Hero]

*That's* the one! Thanks! Repped!

[Bazza]

Maybe this thread should be subtitled: "What Steve would do if he won lotto aka Fantasy HERO"

(pun intended)

[Steve Long]

HeroCon is possibly do-able without subsidation.

It would be doable as any other con, sure. But as I envision it, it would not be doable. There are too many people on these boards whom I would like to be able to attend, who would be unable to due to financial concerns, job demands, spouse aggro, or other such reasons. The odds of creating the event I want increase dramatically, I think, if I can bribe them with (nearly) free airfare and room-and-board. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

It would be doable as any other con, sure. But as I envision it, it would not be doable. There are too many people on these boards whom I would like to be able to attend, who would be unable to due to financial concerns, job demands, spouse aggro, or other such reasons. The odds of creating the event I want increase dramatically, I think, if I can bribe them with (nearly) free airfare and room-and-board. ;)

Perhaps this is better termed the "Steve Long Hero Invitational". If you're going to finance it, you at least have the right to name it and claim some credit! ;)

[Bazza]

I...who would be unable to due to financial concerns, job demands, spouse aggro, or other such reasons. One "other reason" being living on different continents...

:whistle:

[ghost-angel]

It would be doable as any other con, sure. But as I envision it, it would not be doable. There are too many people on these boards whom I would like to be able to attend, who would be unable to due to financial concerns, job demands, spouse aggro, or other such reasons. The odds of creating the event I want increase dramatically, I think, if I can bribe them with (nearly) free airfare and room-and-board. ;)

I love the term "spouse aggro" ... I need to use that in conversation now.

[lemming]

I love the term "spouse aggro" ... I need to use that in conversation now.

I used the term wife aggro while playing CoH one day, lets just say it works as well as taunt...

[BobGreenwade]

It would be doable as any other con, sure. But as I envision it, it would not be doable. There are too many people on these boards whom I would like to be able to attend, who would be unable to due to financial concerns, job demands, spouse aggro, or other such reasons. The odds of creating the event I want increase dramatically, I think, if I can bribe them with (nearly) free airfare and room-and-board. ;)In some cases (such as myself) train fare would be more useful than air fare. :straight:

(Not that that makes a difference with anything.)

[SCUBA Hero]

It would be doable as any other con, sure. But as I envision it, it would not be doable. There are too many people on these boards whom I would like to be able to attend, who would be unable to due to financial concerns, job demands, spouse aggro, or other such reasons. The odds of creating the event I want increase dramatically, I think, if I can bribe them with (nearly) free airfare and room-and-board. ;)Oh sure. :)

Just tossing out some thoughts on making HeroCon as large as possible.

I wouldn't want to get in the way of a good fantasy, though... :D

[Steve Long]

I love the term "spouse aggro" ... I need to use that in conversation now.

It's a pretty common term among my guild in WoW, with "wife aggro" being the usual form (though "kid aggro" isn't far off). If you have to quit playing because your spouse wants you to do something unpleasant, you've gotten "spouse aggro." ;)

[Lord Liaden]

One "other reason" being living on different continents...

:whistle:

Steve is winning fantasy amounts of money here, Baz. Let him dream big.:joint:

[Bazza]

Steve is winning fantasy amounts of money here, Baz. Let him dream big.:joint:

I was referring to (although I note the ambiguity in my post) was international airline tickets so those farther afield could attend Steve's HeroCon.

[archermoo]

Um...you don't have anyone in mind for that position Archermo do you??? :doi:

Why, now that you mention it, I do. :D

[Peregrine]

Always get two... in case one goes on vacation.

Three.. in case one gets sick while another is on vacation.

[ghost-angel]

Hero Games a company of five people with 7 full time IT Staff. . .

[Steve Long]

WHEW!

After taking a couple days' break to deal with LLH and a few other 6E-related distractions, I finally got back to and finished reading all the posts on the 6E Forum (including a few nonstandard/unauthorized threads that seemed worth skimming).

It was a lot of work, but it was definitely worth it. I think the level of participation and discussion was excellent. I deeply appreciate everyone who took the time to post a response or make a suggestion, whether I end up using it or not. Heck, there were a few people who seemed to write as much about HERO over the past year as I did, and it's my job. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

I'm glad we could be of help, Steve.

Personally I'm very happy that I could contribute the No Turn Mode Advantage and the various methods of Combining to 5th Ed Hero (even if the latter only appeared in TUV and TUMM). I'll be very interested to see if any of the specifics I came up with get into the 6th Ed rulebook.

[Peregrine]

WHEW!

After taking a couple days' break to deal with LLH and a few other 6E-related distractions, I finally got back to and finished reading all the posts on the 6E Forum (including a few nonstandard/unauthorized threads that seemed worth skimming).

It was a lot of work, but it was definitely worth it. I think the level of participation and discussion was excellent. I deeply appreciate everyone who took the time to post a response or make a suggestion, whether I end up using it or not. Heck, there were a few people who seemed to write as much about HERO over the past year as I did, and it's my job. ;)

Done already?

<Steve> "I write for Hero."

<Me> "You ARE da Hero!"

(Nod to Princess Bride)

[ajackson]

I deeply appreciate everyone who took the time to post a response or make a suggestion, whether I end up using it or not.
If some people were significantly helpful, it might be worth having a line somewhere on the credits page of 6e.

[Doc Democracy]

If some people were significantly helpful, it might be worth having a line somewhere on the credits page of 6e.

Too big a chance of noses being put of joint, believe me.

It might be nice to credit the participation of the fanbase as a whole - that way everyone can think that it was their devastating deconstruction of COM and social interaction that resulted in the way that was now handled in 6th edition.

:)


Doc

[Steve Long]

I made it quite clear when I started the 6E board that I was not going to give credit to any specific participant, for what I should hope would be obvious reasons. But certainly the fans in general are going to get mentioned in the credits; the whole project would be pointless if not for them.

I realize some of you don't think very highly of me, but for Pete's sake, credit me with a little common sense and civility. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Too big a chance of noses being put of joint, believe me.

It might be nice to credit the participation of the fanbase as a whole - that way everyone can think that it was their devastating deconstruction of COM and social interaction that resulted in the way that was now handled in 6th edition.

I agree that, if anything, a note in the 6e credits thanking the Hero Web Community for its contributions would be the best approach. I doubt everything Steve is considering for 6e that originates on the Boards even comes from the 6e boards. There are probably ideas raised 5 years ago that no one would even remember came from an off hand comment on some thread or another.

And, to me, it's never a mistake to express gratitude to the fan base who not only offer their heartfelt (even if ill-considered) suggestions to make the game better - they're also the ones buying the game, playing the game and (hopefully) bringing others into the game.

But it wouldn't offend me in any way to see no mention in the credits either, and I think it would be a real mistake to try to name names, as someone is bound to be forgotten and someone else is bound to be offended because they think they were forgotten (and, perhaps, Steve even wishes he COULD forget them).

[BobGreenwade]

I realize some of you don't think very highly of me, but for Pete's sake, credit me with a little common sense and civility. ;)No, I don't think I can do that. How about a lot of common sense and civility? :dyn

(Personally I'd be happy enough just being able to point to something and say proudly to myself, "Hey! I came up with that one!")

[ghost-angel]

. . .(and, perhaps, Steve even wishes he COULD forget them).

Dude, I'm standing right here!

[archermoo]

{silence}

Did anyone hear something?

:eg:

[ghost-angel]

awww snap.

[Doc Democracy]

...but for Pete's sake, credit me with a little common sense and civility. ;)

Yeah, come on Steve, how can you be so unreasonable as to ask for so much on your own forums....

:p

And BTW, you think you'll be UK side any time soon - that dinner date in the Palace of Westminster is still open...

Doc

[Steve Long]

And BTW, you think you'll be UK side any time soon - that dinner date in the Palace of Westminster is still open...

I keep dropping hints with the Dragonmeet people (real subtle ones, like, "I'd love to be invited back to Dragonmeet sometime!"), but as yet they haven't taken the bait. ;) If this keeps up I may have to break down and pay for my own trip over to GB sometime; I'd love to come back. And after 6E and my busy summer con schedule, I just may need a vacation! ;)

[L. Marcus]

A London vacation . . . Could be worse, I suppose. :)

[BobGreenwade]

A London vacation . . . Could be worse, I suppose. :)Yeah, but then he'd have to learn how to speak English. ;)

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, but then he'd have to learn how to speak English. ;)

I never bothered...

[Pteryx]

WHEW!

After taking a couple days' break to deal with LLH and a few other 6E-related distractions, I finally got back to and finished reading all the posts on the 6E Forum (including a few nonstandard/unauthorized threads that seemed worth skimming).

It was a lot of work, but it was definitely worth it. I think the level of participation and discussion was excellent. I deeply appreciate everyone who took the time to post a response or make a suggestion, whether I end up using it or not. Heck, there were a few people who seemed to write as much about HERO over the past year as I did, and it's my job. ;)

Congratulations! :celebrate

I'm curious, is there any other reading material on your list? Competing games pop to mind; sometimes when looking over the competition I see something another game does well simply that HERO's much clunkier at. OTOH, for all I know there are legal issues involved... *shrug* -- Pteryx

[Steve Long]

No, I don't have any intention of reviewing other games. Even if I wanted to (which I don't), I don't really have the time right now. Plenty of work to be done as it is. ;)

[Doc Democracy]

I keep dropping hints with the Dragonmeet people (real subtle ones, like, "I'd love to be invited back to Dragonmeet sometime!"), but as yet they haven't taken the bait. ;)

OK. Lets see if UK side lobbying makes any difference...6th edition might be a good selling point...


Doc

[SCUBA Hero]

Dude, I'm standing right here!I think I just failed a Listen check...

[tomd1969]

I think I just failed a Listen check...

Dude, seriously... wrong game.... :)

Here at HERO, we don't have Listen checks, we have Perception Rolls! Get it right! ;)

[tomd1969]

WHEW!

After taking a couple days' break to deal with LLH and a few other 6E-related distractions, I finally got back to and finished reading all the posts on the 6E Forum (including a few nonstandard/unauthorized threads that seemed worth skimming).

It was a lot of work, but it was definitely worth it. I think the level of participation and discussion was excellent. I deeply appreciate everyone who took the time to post a response or make a suggestion, whether I end up using it or not. Heck, there were a few people who seemed to write as much about HERO over the past year as I did, and it's my job. ;)

Wow. That was quite an undertaking. I gave up trying to keep up many moons ago. I put in my $0.02 a long time ago, read the responses to it, and let it lie.

[mallet]

Steve, How's it going?

It's been so quiet for the last few weeks... I miss my Steve updates.

[Steve Long]

Well, it's been quiet mostly because I've been head-down, tightly focused on working on 6E. ;) Right now I'm slowly but surely working my way through the Powers during the day, then at night as a "break" I work on whatever little piece of the rules happens to catch my fancy that day. Last night, for example, I was doing some stuff with Combat Maneuvers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, it's been quiet mostly because I've been head-down, tightly focused on working on 6E. ;) Right now I'm slowly but surely working my way through the Powers during the day, then at night as a "break" I work on whatever little piece of the rules happens to catch my fancy that day. Last night, for example, I was doing some stuff with Combat Maneuvers.

Guards. GUARDS! Mr. Long's escaped the chains again - he needs to be returned to his desk in the cell.

OK, everyone, move along - nothing to see here...

[Patriot]

I work on whatever little piece of the rules happens to catch my fancy that day. Last night, for example, I was doing some stuff with Combat Maneuvers.

Combat Maneuvers....right, gotta keep Mrs. Long happy.:thumbup:

[The Main Man]

WHEW!

After taking a couple days' break to deal with LLH and a few other 6E-related distractions, I finally got back to and finished reading all the posts on the 6E Forum (including a few nonstandard/unauthorized threads that seemed worth skimming).

It was a lot of work, but it was definitely worth it. I think the level of participation and discussion was excellent. I deeply appreciate everyone who took the time to post a response or make a suggestion, whether I end up using it or not. Heck, there were a few people who seemed to write as much about HERO over the past year as I did, and it's my job. ;)

Well, as a frontline combatant in the COM debate (and I would argue an indirect catalyst to the Social Interaction debate) I have to say you're a trooper.

[The Main Man]

I made it quite clear when I started the 6E board that I was not going to give credit to any specific participant, for what I should hope would be obvious reasons. But certainly the fans in general are going to get mentioned in the credits; the whole project would be pointless if not for them.

I realize some of you don't think very highly of me, but for Pete's sake, credit me with a little common sense and civility. ;)

I just think that everyone that participated deserves a pat on the back.


There, I should get more credit now, because I'm not greedy.;)

[BobGreenwade]

I’ve just about finished the section on use of live ammo as a GMing tool.It's about time! That was standard in some of my early 90s campaigns, for keeping players in line.

[Lord Liaden]

The rules for the new non-Euclidean dice are done

Obviously the insidious influence of the R'lyeh Gamers Association. :ugly:

[Evil Steve]

Originally Posted by Steve Long
Fortunately, some of the hard lifting is behind me! The rules for the new non-Euclidean dice are done, and I’ve just about finished the section on use of live ammo as a GMing tool. ;)

Dear Mr. Steven S. Long,

Perhaps you should be careful what you say. After all, your off-handed comments about FREd and Porn Hero did have "results".

If you feel it is vital to your well-being to continue in such a way, you could, perhaps, restrict yourself to on-topic comments in catsuit threads.


Sincerely, and with too much free time,

Evil Steve

PS-Perhaps the non-euclidean dice will improve my rolling to "within the laws of probability"

[splooger]

Are Hero System books play tested? It doesn't seem like there is enough time, for example, to write 6E and have it play tested in time for Gen Con.

[BobGreenwade]

I just want to know when he's finished up the manuscript and turned it in to the Line Editor for review. ;)

[ghost-angel]

Isn't... Steve the Line Editor?

... I can picture Steve moving it from his Working Folder to his Line Editor In Box Folder and ignoring it for week, while calling his own phone and leaving messages for himself to check the thing already!!

[Doug Limmer]

Are Hero System books play tested? It doesn't seem like there is enough time, for example, to write 6E and have it play tested in time for Gen Con.I'm kind of worried about that myself. But, I'm assuming that (a) there won't be much in the way of rule changes, so it will be about as balanced as it ever was, and (b) most of the rule changes will be house rules that Steve (or someone) has been using for a while.

[ideasmith]

I'm kind of worried about that myself. But, I'm assuming that (a) there won't be much in the way of rule changes, so it will be about as balanced as it ever was, and (b) most of the rule changes will be house rules that Steve (or someone) has been using for a while.

I'm hoping Steve uses suggestions form the 6th edition forum. There were a fair number that I liked.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm pretty sure he plans on starting writing it at least six hours before it's due to layout. That should leave plenty of time to run a playtest game.

[ghost-angel]

At the rate Steve writes? That'd be a solid 4-4.5 hour game session.

[Vulcan]

<tap tap tap>

It got really quiet in here. Anyone around? Anyone?

[L. Marcus]

*tumbleweed*

[The Main Man]

Um... so yeah.

Need a topic... ah!

So Figured CHAR are in fact going extinct.

Shucks.

But then again, it appears that Mr. Long has also given his personal answer on the CHAR status of O/D/OE/DECV.

And hopefully the repricing will be just fine.

[Peregrine]

Yeah, *CV as Characteristics makes things very interesting.

[Vulcan]

Um... so yeah.

Need a topic... ah!

So Figured CHAR are in fact going extinct.

Shucks.

But then again, it appears that Mr. Long has also given his personal answer on the CHAR status of O/D/OE/DECV.

And hopefully the repricing will be just fine.

Hunh? When? Where? What?

[aylwin13]

Steve's chat last night, I believe. It starts around page 28 of the chat archives.

[The Main Man]

Hunh? When? Where? What?

Yup.I took a personal moment of silence.

[Kisska]

OK, I understand that you're just having fun, and in particular I know that you, LL, wouldn't deliberately be insulting (unlike more than a few people on these boards whom I could name). But nevertheless, this is insulting. You seem to be implying that I am somehow always wrong, or that only the fans know what's "right" and somehow have to persuade the Big, Tyrannical Line Developer of what a moron he is.

And I resent that, frankly. Not only do I think it proceeds from some faulty assumptions, but it paints me in an unfair light. The blunt fact is that someone has to make the final decisions, and that someone is me -- the guy who was willing to quit his job and put his life savings on the line to buy the Hero Games assets and step into the position of Line Developer. The mere fact that I set up an entire discussion board, and am now reading through 1,200 pages of posts covering nearly every aspect of the HERO System, should be proof that I welcome feedback and am open to other peoples' ideas. That doesn't mean that I can't have ideas of my own or express my preferences; I'm not a blank slate and this book is not being written by committee (for what I should hope would be obvious reasons). But to think of changing my mind as a "victory" is not only wrong, it's just plain unfair and mean-spirited.

As always, my offer stands: if one of you thinks you can do my job better, buy me out and take it. I didn't just stand on the sidelines tossing brickbats at the former owners and impugning their motives; I thought I could do better, so I made the necessary sacrifices and got myself the job. Anyone who thinks he can do my job better is welcome to try to do the same.


Hmm tempting,(JK) you are the one who did this and while I dont care a lot for your work I do admire your love for the game and willingness to take such a large gamble and its not fair for someone to knock you for it plus you are reading and looking at our thoughts and input so thanks for that, while I didnt care for 5th very much I am waiting inmpatiently for 6e to see if it is the new game for me as 4E dnd for sure wasnt. Well good luck and keep up the good fight.

[Kisska]

Sure, I understand what LL meant; as I said right off the bat, I know that he (in particular) would never deliberately be insulting. I've rarely seen someone online who phrases things so diplomatically! His phrasing just put a burr under my saddle about the attitudes and posting habits of some frequenters of these boards.

For the most part, I would rather not start revealing changes and thought processes while 6E is in development. For the most part I think all that's going to accomplish is a lot of complaining and a lot of repetition of arguments made (and repeated, and repeated, and repeated...) on the 6E Forum. However, I can make a couple of general statements.

First, while a huge percentage of the 6E posts tend not to add anything significant to the overall discussion (note: I did not say "detract from"), many good and valid ideas have been raised. Even if I ultimately don't use them, it's still gratifying to see them expressed.

Second, where I have my own opinions about something, the arguments raised by people who feel differently have often caused me to think much longer and more deeply about the issue. Sometimes they have changed my mind; sometimes they have not. But even where they haven't, I believe that focusing my attention on an issue improves the overall process, and thus the end result.

Now, with all that in mind, as an experiment I will answer two of your implicit questions. But this comes with a caveat: if doing so leads to a lot of complaining, to a repeat of discussions already held on the 6E Forums, to a lot of angry statements, or any other such crap, this is absolutely the last time I will do this. I will never again answer any such questions, and you will simply have to wait for the release of 6E to find out what's going on. So:

--the HERO System will not switch to "roll high"; the existing roll 3d6 roll low rule will remain in place. IMO no compelling argument for switching has been presented.

--Comeliness is being removed as a Characteristic and replaced with a Striking Appearance Talent. A game element that exists primarily to affect rolls made with a Characteristic (i.e., Interaction Skill rolls, in this case) isn't itself a Characteristic; it's a Talent. If you don't want your character's appearance to have any game effect, just describe him as being as good-looking (or ugly) as you want; no one cares. But if you want it to have an in-game effect, buy the Talent.


Good

Only a mild feeling of disapointment but nothing that would make me even slightly hesitate in buying the book



Thanks for letting us know these two points.

[The Main Man]

Did I miss something?

Or are you just quoting from another thread for discussion here?

[rjcurrie]

Did I miss something?

Or are you just quoting from another thread for discussion here?

If I'm not mistaken, those are quoted from the thread about Darren's interview on OgreCave.com about 6e. The thread ended up being closed because it turned into a debate over Figured Characteristcs and Steve, who had just finished reading the huge debate in the 6e threads on the subject, was in no mood for it to invade other sections of the boards.

[Kisska]

Um... so yeah.

Need a topic... ah!

So Figured CHAR are in fact going extinct.

Shucks.

But then again, it appears that Mr. Long has also given his personal answer on the CHAR status of O/D/OE/DECV.

And hopefully the repricing will be just fine.


ahh well maybe there will be some stuff I can use in up coming books but if this is true no 6th for me as it wont seem like champs to me. Maybe they will bring them back for 7th.

[Kisska]

If I'm not mistaken, those are quoted from the thread about Darren's interview on OgreCave.com about 6e. The thread ended up being closed because it turned into a debate over Figured Characteristcs and Steve, who had just finished reading the huge debate in the 6e threads on the subject, was in no mood for it to invade other sections of the boards.


Yeah would be silly to argue about it. Its done either you like it or you dont. While I wont be using 6th I might use some of the up coming books for materials or ideas so they will likely still be stuff I can use.

[teh bunneh]

Just to clarify one thing:

The characteristics that used to be figured will all still be there. There's still going to be PD, ED, REC, END, STUN, SPD. It's just that their base value will no longer be determined by other stats. Everything is going to be a primary stat now.

I got into this discussion with another fan a week or two back. He was saying, "I hate it that STUN and REC and END are going away! I love those things about Hero!"

It took me a while to convince him that no, those things are actually staying. It's just that the way of buying them is going to be different. :)

[ghost-angel]

It would be most accurate to say the Figuring Secondary Characteristics is going away.

The elements are staying around. This allows for more granularity in Character Creation.

[lemming]

It would be most accurate to say the Figuring Secondary Characteristics is going away.

The elements are staying around. This allows for more granularity in Character Creation.

That's a good way of putting it.

In some ways, this streamlines buying up stats. You don't have the extra step in figuring out what an extra point in STR does in terms of PD & STUN.

[Vulcan]

No more COM.

Figured characteristics have been 'decoupled.'

And if Peregrine is right, CV is now bought independant of DEX?

Anything been said on the status of power frameworks, specifically Elemental Controls?

[aylwin13]

From Steve's chat on Wed.: "...two, Multipower and VPP. The Elemental Control has been replaced with a Limitation called Unified Power."

[Jhaierr]

Anything been said on the status of power frameworks, specifically Elemental Controls?

I looked at the chat transcript earlier, and I believe ECs have been replaced with a Limitation (the exact name escapes me). Multipower and VPPs are still there, however.

Makes sense to me. Much easier to calculate, I'd think, as well. The ECs were always a little odd.

[Jhaierr]

From Steve's chat on Wed.: "...two, Multipower and VPP. The Elemental Control has been replaced with a Limitation called Unified Power."

D'oh! Too slow. :D

[Peregrine]

No more COM.

Figured characteristics have been 'decoupled.'

And if Peregrine is right, CV is now bought independant of DEX?



Actually, OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV are all separate Chars if I read the chat log correctly. Which raises an interesting observation: in 5e, CSLs for DCV with all combat are legal; CSLs for OCV with all combat are not. In 6e, the equivalents (explicitly and separately increasing your OCV or DCV Char) will both be legal, unless undisclosed details would prevent.

[The Main Man]

I agree that "decoupled" is better terminology when referring to Figured (and "derived") CHAR.

The decoupling isn't a dealbreaker for me (in spite of my "pro-figured" stance), but I hope that the Advanced Player's Guide will still have rules for them for those that still prefer them.

[Vulcan]

I was worried that EC's had been retained while Figured Characteristics became 'decoupled.' 'Unified Power' makes better sense than EC ever did, in my opinion, and is much more flexible to boot.

[Steve Long]

Just a little update on the Characteristics thing. ;)

I just got done re-working all the characters in the Genre By Genre chapter. At the risk of sounding like I'm tooting my own horn or shilling for 6E ;), I have to say I really enjoyed the flexibility of being able to, f'rex, give a character a different OCV from his DCV if that was appropriate. Or to buy up his EGO for strong willpower without making him better at mental combat (or vice-versa).

And I think you will enjoy it, too. :hex:



And of course, rolling all those non-Euclidean dice to randomly generate their powers was a hoot! :eek: ;)

[JohnTaber]

Hi Steve: Sounds really great. We like flexible. One of my players started posting false rumors about 6th ed changes that are pretty funny...moving to 3 sided dice, etc. I'll have to gather them up.

How can we wait until August?!? Jeez loueez.... :thumbup:

[ghost-angel]

And of course, rolling all those non-Euclidean dice to randomly generate their powers was a hoot! :eek: ;)

I think you mean Psychically Shifting since you can't "roll" non-Euclidean dice at all.



game designers... I tell ya.... :p

[Bazza]

And of course, rolling all those non-Euclidean dice to randomly generate their powers was a hoot! :eek: ;)


I think you mean Psychically Shifting since you can't "roll" non-Euclidean dice at all.



game designers... I tell ya.... :p So the rumours are true, 6E is moving away from cubes as dice to 4-d squares ( the tesseract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract)), still a cube-shape, but has 24 faces. :yes: :D :hex:

[lemming]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31779&stc=1&d=1244254420

[Vulcan]

Good to hear from you again, Steve! For a while I was worried that you had abandoned us here. I guess you were just really busy. :doi:

So... do we get any hints about how Killing Attacks are going to be dealt with in 6E?

[The Main Man]

Not to pre-empt Mr. Long, but basically the Stun Multiplier has been changed to 1/2d6.

[Vulcan]

So, 1-3? 1d6 KA does between 1 and 18 STUN?

Any word on changes to HKA's?

[The Main Man]

So, 1-3? 1d6 KA does between 1 and 18 STUN?

Any word on changes to HKA's?

Yup, affects HKA and RKA.

[Steve Long]

I can touch on that issue briefly, but I don't want to get too bogged down -- got a chapter to edit today. ;)

Someone mentioned that the STUN Multiplier shifts to a straight 1/2d6. The only other change, really, is that you can apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a KA whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not. It's pretty much a non-issue -- virtually every character has some Resistant Defense, or access to it -- and this makes the rule easier to learn.

The issue of Killing Damage has actually been the single most detailed one SETAC has dealt with, dwarfing even our not-inconsiderable discussion of Characteristics. We discussed, debated, and rigorously analyzed a LOT of possible alternate models for Killing Damage, trying to find one that worked perfectly. We all quickly decided we hated Killing Damage. ;)

In the end it came down to two choices: "keep things pretty much the way they are, with slight improvements" or "go with this radically different model that yields pretty much the same result but is probably a little easier to learn." In the end, I decided that making a radical shift in Killing Damage without a significant upside wasn't worth the risks, so I couldn't do it. I will, however, put the alternate in the Advanced Player's Guide. Maybe in some future APG2 I'll describe some of the other models that were tossed around. ;)

[Jhaierr]

Someone mentioned that the STUN Multiplier shifts to a straight 1/2d6. The only other change, really, is that you can apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a KA whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not. It's pretty much a non-issue -- virtually every character has some Resistant Defense, or access to it -- and this makes the rule easier to learn.


In the end it came down to two choices: "keep things pretty much the way they are, with slight improvements" or "go with this radically different model that yields pretty much the same result but is probably a little easier to learn." In the end, I decided that making a radical shift in Killing Damage without a significant upside wasn't worth the risks, so I couldn't do it. I will, however, put the alternate in the Advanced Player's Guide. Maybe in some future APG2 I'll describe some of the other models that were tossed around. ;)

1/2d6 makes sense to me, and it's a minimal change. I'm really curious to see the alternative in the APG as well as the other advanced optional rules.

[mayapuppies]

I will, however, put the alternate in the Advanced Player's Guide. Maybe in some future APG2 I'll describe some of the other models that were tossed around. ;)
You are such a tease!

[Vulcan]

Anything come up about the 'HKA+STR is too efficient' argument?

[Steve Long]

I'm not sure I understand your question, Vulcan.

If you're asking, "Did you consider the issue of STR adding to HKAs?" then the answer is "Yes, I did."

If you're asking, "Did anything change about STR adding to HKAs?", the answer is No. Ideally I'd've liked to get rid of that, but I couldn't find a way to do it that was satisfactory in light of other elements and aspects of the HERO System.

[Vulcan]

No, that was pretty much it.

Many people like to point out that a 4d6 HKA is more effective than a 4d6 RKA (MUCH more in the case of a character with high STR or lots of martial arts)... but costs the same.

EDIT: Sorry, Steve, I forgot this thread wasn't supposed to be for arguments/suggestions. I've cut them out of this post.

[ghost-angel]

No, that was pretty much it.

Many people like to point out that a 4d6 HKA is more effective than a 4d6 RKA (MUCH more in the case of a character with high STR or lots of martial arts)... but costs the same.

One adds STR.
One is Ranged, can be Spread, and can be Bounced.
Trade offs in capability.

[Vulcan]

EDIT: Removed because this is not the place for this issue. Sorry!

[Lord Liaden]

RKA guy has a 60 Active Point attack. HKA guy has a 120 Active Point attack. HKA guy spent 50 more points on STR to get the full benefit of that HKA; so it certainly should be more powerful. If RKA guy had paid 60 more points into his RKA instead of buying up his STR he'd also have gotten 8d6 damage, Ranged, which can also be spread and bounced.

[rjcurrie]

RKA guy has a 60 Active Point attack. HKA guy has a 120 Active Point attack. HKA guy spent 50 more points on STR to get the full benefit of that HKA; so it certainly should be more powerful. If RKA guy had paid 60 more points into his RKA instead of buying up his STR he'd also have gotten 8d6 damage, Ranged, which can also be spread and bounced.

Yup, is it really any different than a character who bought 60 STR and a 6d6 Entangle? He can't use his STR to make the Entangle better -- do you think that is unfair too?

[Hugh Neilson]

There is a bit of a difference, though.

Two 10 STR characters, one with 60 points of HKA, one with 60 points of RKA. HKA guy does 4.5d6 KA. RKA guy does 4d6 KA at range, which can be spread and bounced.

Two 60 STR characters, one with 60 points of HKA, one with 60 points of RKA. HKA guy does 8d6 KA. RKA guy... still does 4d6 KA at range, which can be spread and bounced.

And these two results are equivalent how?


RKA guy has a 60 Active Point attack. HKA guy has a 120 Active Point attack. HKA guy spent 50 more points on STR to get the full benefit of that HKA; so it certainly should be more powerful. If RKA guy had paid 60 more points into his RKA instead of buying up his STR he'd also have gotten 8d6 damage, Ranged, which can also be spread and bounced.


Yup, is it really any different than a character who bought 60 STR and a 6d6 Entangle? He can't use his STR to make the Entangle better -- do you think that is unfair too?

As this thread is not for debates over the decisions, I am moving the above, and adding my comments, to Hero System Discussion - STR Adding to HKA's

[BobGreenwade]

There is a bit of a difference, though.

Two 10 STR characters, one with 60 points of HKA, one with 60 points of RKA. HKA guy does 4.5d6 KA. RKA guy does 4d6 KA at range, which can be spread and bounced.

Two 60 STR characters, one with 60 points of HKA, one with 60 points of RKA. HKA guy does 8d6 KA. RKA guy... still does 4d6 KA at range, which can be spread and bounced.

And these two results are equivalent how?

If the two characters are standing sufficiently apart (more than a Half Move for the one with HKA), the one with HKA cannot damage the one with RKA.

[Doc Democracy]

Ahem!

a not for discussion thread...

Please keep clear for Steve to communicate otherwise I can see the thread being locked and we'll all starve for 6th edition information...


Doc

[Lord Liaden]

Assuming the responses to the rules-change list thread I started hasn't scared Steve off already... :o

[ajackson]

Ahem!

a not for discussion thread...
Incidentally, edit -> delete works...

[ghost-angel]

Assuming the responses to the rules-change list thread I started hasn't scared Steve off already... :o

Steve does not scare so easily. . . .

[GamePhil]

Steve does not scare so easily. . . .

Isn't Steve the current Green Lantern of Sector 2814? I could have sworn I felt power battery energy when I picked up my copy of 5th that first day.