Retro AD&D options?

[Toadmaster]

My son is getting to an age he can understand and play an RPG, my wife also has an interest. We live in the boonies so finding a game is unlikely.

I'm kind of wondering about Hackmaster and Castles & Crusades. I understand they are supposed to capture that late 70's D&D feel, so I'm toying with getting one of them. My personal preference is more crunchy but I think a good AD&D revival might work well to get things going, the greater control and simplicity of options seems a benefit in this case.

I'm also giving Runequest (a personal favorite of mine), and Mongoose's Conan (I got it for the background haven't really looked to hard at the rules) some thought as well.

Any suggestions or other games I should consider for some good old school dungeon crawling?

[Killer Shrike]

The 2nd Edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game is pretty solid, a few minor glitches aside. It's kind of dark however.

Alternately you could run Fantasy HERO and just hide the mechanics from the players by handling it all yourself. The main difference between the HERO System and other games isnt anything particularly overwhelming, its just a question of transparency and accounting -- and it's not that hard to run the HERO System set to "opaque" while handling the accounting yourself as the GM. I've done it before and been very successful with it. Though its a bit more effort in some ways, in other ways it can make things simpler. It requires the players' trust in you, but hopefully that wouldnt be a problem with your own family members.


If you decide to go that route, check out the Fantasy HERO resources on my site http://www.killershrike.com/

You could even get Pathfinder issue #1 and use the conversion (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Pathfinder/PaizoPathfinder.aspx) I provide. It's got a good old D&D feel without being totally hack and slash, and Paizo is really doing a good job of supporting the Pathfinder line so you've got growth options if its successful.

[Lucius]

If you can get hold of an old copy of The Fantasy Trip (consisting of Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard, and In The Labyrinth) that is just about as simple as a role playing game can be and still function fully as a complete role playing game.

In fact, you could run it without Advanced Wizard if you either have no magic or are willing to "wing it" on the magic. Also if you have just basic Melee and In the Labyrinth, you could probably make it work.

If you can't get the original, there's a free downloadable game based on those rules that I may be back to share a link to, if I find it.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary agrees that Fantasy Hero with you doing all the accounting would probably work too.

[ideasmith]

Tunnels and Trolls is simple, playable, and still in print last I heard.

[Lucius]

This is the link to The Fantasy Trip (with serial numbers filed off.)

In my opinion, one of the best role playing systems ever.


He's a link to a game that is basically it with the numbers almost filed off.

http://www.darkcitygames.com/docs/Legends.pdf


Dark city games sells tons of modules for this system which is almost identical to the Fantasy Trip in its non advanced form.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary notes that it's also still possible to get old 1st edition AD&D stuff, but that doesn't constitute "one of the best systems ever." Nor is it as simple and intuitive as The Fantasy Trip.

[Toadmaster]

I thought about Hero and obvioulsy being here I like it. I just found it to open ended, too many options for this particular situation. I like Warhammer too, but yeah I think a bit dark for an 8 year old.

I hadn't thought about TFT, I downloaded a bunch of stuff for it a couple years ago, but didn't do anything with it. I'll have a look at it and see how I like it. Isn't there a site with a slightly modified version and a bunch of modules and such?

[ideasmith]

Here are T&T links:

http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=54407

http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=59112

[jtelson]

My son is getting to an age he can understand and play an RPG, my wife also has an interest. We live in the boonies so finding a game is unlikely.

I'm kind of wondering about Hackmaster and Castles & Crusades. I understand they are supposed to capture that late 70's D&D feel, so I'm toying with getting one of them. My personal preference is more crunchy but I think a good AD&D revival might work well to get things going, the greater control and simplicity of options seems a benefit in this case.

I'm also giving Runequest (a personal favorite of mine), and Mongoose's Conan (I got it for the background haven't really looked to hard at the rules) some thought as well.

Any suggestions or other games I should consider for some good old school dungeon crawling?

Why not just use the game whose feel you're trying to capture?

Here's a quick story by a guy who did just that with some success

http://themagicalbuffet.com/blog1/2009/02/11/thinking-inside-the-box/

[Doc Democracy]

Not sure about ages here, but have you thought about Faery's Tale for a fun game. my friend has used it with much enjoyment with his kids:

http://firefly-games.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=48&osCsid=afaa0167424a1b9e2c7686210ee725a3

Doc

EDIT - saw the eight years - perfect age for Faery's Tale.

[Doc Democracy]

I thought about Hero and obvioulsy being here I like it. I just found it to open ended, too many options for this particular situation. I like Warhammer too, but yeah I think a bit dark for an 8 year old.

Ah! Eight years old!

I ran a nice simple game using HERO for 10 and 11 year olds. What I did was run up some simple sheets with combat options and skill lists. I also hand created character sheets so that most stuff was written down as words with only the absolutely necessary numbers on it.

Worked great. more work but I got exactly the game I wanted and was able to slowly ramp up the options because, in the end, they were all HERO characters and I was simply choosing to show more options in them.


Doc

[Fitz]

OSRIC (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/) is pretty much an AD&D1e clone. If you want simpler than that, you can try Labyrinth Lord (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.htm), which is pretty much Molvay OD&D. If you want simpler still, there's Swords & Wizardry (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/), which is Gygax OD&D plus some stuff from its supplements, or S&W White Box (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/?page_id=6), which is just pure 1974 OD&D -- it doesn't get much simpler than that.

[mudpyr8]

Well, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I currently run a game like this, and have been for a while, in Hero.

http://sites.google.com/a/tekhed.com/wilderlands/

I think HackMaster can be a lot of fun, if you buy into the HackMaster delivery. I think it is way more complex than most people assume, and probably not the best choice for 10 year old. They are bringing a basic version out this summer however.

Castles & Crusades is probably the most complete old-school centric game out there. It lacks a certain something for me, and I couldn't get into it, but I think it is well put together.

Warhammer is also a good choice, and the only criticism I would make there is to agree with KS that it a darker game than you might want to play.

Faery's Tale is good solid intro to the genre and I have run this for my kids many times. I don't know as it's good for dungeon crawling, but it is a fun game.

I've tried to implement this style of play in Savage Worlds, as well with limited success. The issue I come to is availability of materials, adventures, etc. I think Savage Worlds is a lot of fun to play, and there is a community around this style of play in the system (and a conversion: Dungeons & Savages), but it isn't quite complete. Magic needs some work. There is a Fantasy Companion coming out soon (probably GenCon) but that doesn't help you now.

In the end, I settled on 2: Hero & 4th Edition.

My Hero stuff is above, and what I play on a regular basis. I run Dungeon Crawl Classics modules and other D&D modules of all versions. It plays well, feels epic, and is a lot of fun.

I have been on the fence about 4th Edition D&D so I did a test. I took the old half-completed scenario in the D&D Basic Red Book (Haunted Tower), followed the 4th Ed DMG guidelines to craft an adventure, and then ran it for first level characters. It was fun, and it felt like a dungeon crawl.

My biggest beef with 4th Ed has been the lack of attention to non-combat abilities, and this was a big sticking point for me. But when you look at the old rules of D&D we used to play with, there were really no rules to even speak of for non-combat challenges. 4th Ed skills framework is very workable and playable, and better: it's simple. So, now you have a game that has a rich, if not repetitive, combat system that is very transparent and fun and tactical (more on the metagame side) with enough non-combat support to round out the experience. The result: an excellent dungeon crawling game. You might really try the $16.99 basic boxed set for 4th edition. It isn't 100% of what I would have liked to see from the game, but it is good.

Well, I think that sums it up. I know there are a number of new choices coming out: Fantasy Craft, Warriors & Warlocks, and probably a couple of others. My pref would be for Hero, followed by 4th edition, and after that it comes down to taste.

[Killer Shrike]

Ah! Eight years old!

I ran a nice simple game using HERO for 10 and 11 year olds. What I did was run up some simple sheets with combat options and skill lists. I also hand created character sheets so that most stuff was written down as words with only the absolutely necessary numbers on it.

Worked great. more work but I got exactly the game I wanted and was able to slowly ramp up the options because, in the end, they were all HERO characters and I was simply choosing to show more options in them.


Doc

Yep. This approach really does work very well, for all genres. I've been successful with it in fantasy, supers, and modern. All limited, short arcs, but the modern game grew into a long-running one with full stats; started off with the covers on basically and after it caught on the covers were peeled back until the full HERO System mechanics were exposed.

[Toadmaster]

Tunnels & Trolls is an interesting suggestion, its been years since I played, but certainly a possibility. MS&PIs was fun too.

Never heard of Faery tale.

Thanks for the suggestions. One thing I should have mentioned is complete lack of time for prep. Something easy to pick up and go with lots of premade stuff available would be perfect. It has been quite a while since I've paid attention to new games, so I'm not sure what all is out there.

[mudpyr8]

Hey, Toadmaster, try this: http://basicfantasy.newcenturycomputers.net/main.html

I think this is just what you are looking for. Tons of stuff too.

Basic Fantasy is a d20 based, rules-lite, complete system for old school dungeon crawling. The d20 compatibility means you can pick up a lot of material and run it, but there is plenty available here as well.

[Curufea]

Good find there - I'm always looking for free downloadable RPGs of good quality :)
I even forgive them for have D20 as a base :)

[Killer Shrike]

Hey, Toadmaster, try this: http://basicfantasy.newcenturycomputers.net/main.html

I think this is just what you are looking for. Tons of stuff too.

Basic Fantasy is a d20 based, rules-lite, complete system for old school dungeon crawling. The d20 compatibility means you can pick up a lot of material and run it, but there is plenty available here as well.

Will check this out...thanks!

[Doc Democracy]

Something easy to pick up and go with lots of premade stuff available would be perfect. It has been quite a while since I've paid attention to new games, so I'm not sure what all is out there.

Runequest is pretty cool for that - you can currently buy big books that contain all of griffin mountain or all of borderlands or all of Pavis and the Big Rubble to get all of the classic adventures for RQII.

I have been having fun taking my current group (who never played RQII) through Pavis for their first time which will culminate in the Cradle scenario...

Doc

[teh bunneh]

Never heard of Faery tale.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58485&

[Thag13]

West End Games D6 system is pretty easy.

While out of print, I notice that a lot of used book stores seem to have a lot of the books.

ITs cheap also. I think Drive thru RPG has pdfs.

[Toadmaster]

Runequest is pretty cool for that - you can currently buy big books that contain all of griffin mountain or all of borderlands or all of Pavis and the Big Rubble to get all of the classic adventures for RQII.

I have been having fun taking my current group (who never played RQII) through Pavis for their first time which will culminate in the Cradle scenario...

Doc

Do you have a link for these collections? I have some of the material but would love to get the rest. I've long been a fan of RQ, I wish the RQ minis were still available, they were nice but I don't remember who made them.

[Doc Democracy]

Do you have a link for these collections? I have some of the material but would love to get the rest. I've long been a fan of RQ, I wish the RQ minis were still available, they were nice but I don't remember who made them.

Hmm. Tradetalk has three of the four collections available - borderlands and beyond, griffin mountain and cults compendium.
http://www.tradetalk.de/english/index.php3

I haven't found anyone stocking pavis & the big rubble but Ian Thompson's website is full of goodies
http://www.city-of-pavis.info/companion.html

I think ebay is going to be the best bet...

Didn't see anything on there right now but I did come across an ebay store selling Gloranthan miniatures...
http://myworld.ebay.com/asylum-books-and-games/


Doc

[Toadmaster]

Hmm. Tradetalk has three of the four collections available - borderlands and beyond, griffin mountain and cults compendium.
http://www.tradetalk.de/english/index.php3

I haven't found anyone stocking pavis & the big rubble but Ian Thompson's website is full of goodies
http://www.city-of-pavis.info/companion.html

I think ebay is going to be the best bet...

Didn't see anything on there right now but I did come across an ebay store selling Gloranthan miniatures...
http://myworld.ebay.com/asylum-books-and-games/


Doc

Thanks, I tried my usual sources and only found high priced reprints, no compilations. Searches were mostly finding Mongoose RQ.

[Doc Democracy]

Thanks, I tried my usual sources and only found high priced reprints, no compilations. Searches were mostly finding Mongoose RQ.

The Mongoose stuff is really good as far as Second Age Glorantha is concerned. It is pretty and well written but really expensive on a page for page basis.

Not tried to play the system though...

[pinecone]

My son is getting to an age he can understand and play an RPG, my wife also has an interest. We live in the boonies so finding a game is unlikely.

I'm kind of wondering about Hackmaster and Castles & Crusades. I understand they are supposed to capture that late 70's D&D feel, so I'm toying with getting one of them. My personal preference is more crunchy but I think a good AD&D revival might work well to get things going, the greater control and simplicity of options seems a benefit in this case.

I'm also giving Runequest (a personal favorite of mine), and Mongoose's Conan (I got it for the background haven't really looked to hard at the rules) some thought as well.

Any suggestions or other games I should consider for some good old school dungeon crawling?

DnD 3.5 is "OK" and should be cheap to obtain....Runequest is good , though it can trip people out some....

[Toadmaster]

Thanks for the suggestions, I think I'm going to pick up the new Tunnels & Trolls just 'cause, might even use it but I'm strongly leaning towards Runequest or maybe the new BRP. I wasn't initially but thinking about it I'm comfortable with the game, and its easy to tweak as needed.

I have a few of the Mongoose Runequest books, nice but pricey.

I have some of the D&D 3rd ed stuff, I wasn't to thrilled with it. Not a bad game I just didn't care for the execution.

[Egyptoid]

anyone know of an ONLINE DnD character sheet,
fill it out and save it as HTML?

can be 3.5 or 3.75 version...


or the best downloadable sheet?


TIA

[Hierax]

http://www.emass-web.com/

Fill out and save PDF great sheets.

[Curufea]

Except it has now been shut down.



I'm sorry to inform you that this site is no more.
Wizards of the Coast asked me to take it down, and I complied.

I'm sorry for all the fans who will miss it - I will miss it, too - but it was the right thing to do.

Time to move on...

Ema.

[Hierax]

Damn! :(

His sheets were beyond professional quality. He had good just print them out ones as well as nice fillable pdf forms that you could save and print, and lots of good supplement sheets like spell summaries.

It's sad when top quality fan stuff is shut down by greedy corporations who can't do half as good themselves.

Sorry, since 4th ed. I haven't bothered to look at D&D stuff, I didn't mean to give you a bad link.

[Curufea]

You may be able to find them on the wayback machine, on the Internet Archive. You could also try rpg.net for anyone who saved the pages/sheets.

[errol_barean]

Well they're releasing Talisman 4th edition. Sadly it's just an over priced makeover of the old 2nd edition and I wasn't even aware of the 3rd editions existence. It can be a very fun game but can also be quite unbalanced and having too many of the expansion packs really screws with the game. The base game and a few character expansion packs (but not the dragon expansion) were pretty fun. I liked the dungeon expansion as well but haven't tried the city expansion. 4th edition might change the expansions a fair bit. Best played with 4 players, ok with 3, too slow with 5 or more, often one sided with 2.

Look around on the web for a fun old one called Search for the emperor's treasure. It was a great little game that came out of a dragon magazine in the early 80's. Fun treasure hunting, exploration and fighting.

I'd also suggest Munchkin Quest. The rules are a bit complicated but it's a very FUNNY dungeon crawler (build the board as you explore) with plenty of dungeon room tiles (double sided even) so you might need a big table :) The game is full of tasteless puns, mean cards to play on other players or yourself, and hilarious artwork.

[mudpyr8]

The latest KoDT has a preview of HackMaster 5th edition and it looks really, really good. HM Basic using these rules will be out at GenCon.

From the looks of it they fixed the stuff I didn't like about HM, which was very limited (HM = best version of D&D evar!).

[Peregrine]

Look around on the web for a fun old one called Search for the emperor's treasure. It was a great little game that came out of a dragon magazine in the early 80's. Fun treasure hunting, exploration and fighting.


Oh, good God... I actually remember that game. Played it, too. And yeah, fun stuff...

[Curufea]

Well they're releasing Talisman 4th edition. Sadly it's just an over priced makeover of the old 2nd edition and I wasn't even aware of the 3rd editions existence. It can be a very fun game but can also be quite unbalanced and having too many of the expansion packs really screws with the game. The base game and a few character expansion packs (but not the dragon expansion) were pretty fun. I liked the dungeon expansion as well but haven't tried the city expansion. 4th edition might change the expansions a fair bit. Best played with 4 players, ok with 3, too slow with 5 or more, often one sided with 2.

You can also create your own version of Talisman just with the fan resources available here-
http://www.talismanisland.com/

I liked the game, but it was inherently unbalanced. I'm not a big fan of the roll-move mechanic. Good for snakes & ladders, and that's about it.

[CourtFool]

Probably too late, but...

Questers of the Middle Realms (http://www.silverbranch.co.uk/questers/index.htm)

Jaws of the Six Serpents (http://www.silverbranch.co.uk/jaws/index.htm)

Both based on Prose Descriptive Qualities (PDQ) (http://www.atomicsockmonkey.com/freebies.asp#pdq) which is free so you could check out the mechancis. Very rules light.

[Hierax]

Now that Hackmaster 5th Edition is out (at least the Basic book that is), there's another Old School option that maintains the spirit of xD&D but takes some interesting new twists yet remains more D&D than the game that now uses the D&D name. The 4th ed. of Hackmaster is even closer to the classic AD&D.

Poor old (and new) Hackmaster never seems to get mentioned in the retro old school threads :(

[mudpyr8]

Love me some HM4, but I just picked up the new HM5 Basic and it is much better. I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but the rules read much better and it is still very much the right flavor.

It is not D&D but it still has that flavor - the combat system and skill system is very different than anything D&D.

I'm interested in playing. My biggest disappointment is that it is giong to be aligned with Kingdoms of Kalimar - Garweeze Wurld is no more, and that is a real shame. As long as they have all the crazy-@$$ monsters from HM, I don't know as I really care, but HM is about good solid hack and slash fun with roleplaying and I think Kalimar is just the wrong tone for that style of play, especially with the HM name on it.

[tribe]

What about Basic Dungeons and Dragons? I bought it as a PDF for $5 and am planning on using it with my 8 year old. Plus if it takes, you can use Expert Rules and the other ones.

[Vondy]

I thought about Hero and obvioulsy being here I like it. I just found it to open ended, too many options for this particular situation. I like Warhammer too, but yeah I think a bit dark for an 8 year old.

I sort of agree with the notion of just using 1st Ed. AD&D with the non-weapon proficiency rules from Unearthed Arcana, or even 2nd Ed. AD&D, though it has some minuses in that it was the transition from "old school" to "modern." But I admit, despite the local hate for the grandaddy, that I have very fond memories of Al Qadim and Ravenloft. I just happen to think hero does other things better.

On the hero front, you could do something radical: limit options to characteristics, martial arts, perks, and skills. No talents or powers. You could use Killer Shrike's skill based magic system as a hand-wave for not having to write up too many spells. That closes a lot of those open ended doors.

Another option might be running Flashing Blades (not fantasy, but historical swashbuckling). An old school system, but inspired. Its not specifically old school, but Chaosium's Stormbringer 4th Ed., now in a new edition called "Elric!" BRP is pretty strong for an "old school" system.

There are some chop-shop revival versions of 1st Ed. AD&D. Osric is one. I know I've seen some others.