Balancing Mental Powers

[handleyj]

So I have to admit that I am a Brick by nature. But I'm GM'ing for a character that is a Mentalist, and I'm having a hard time making combat a challenge for this PC. A sample of his powers include:

Ego - 26 (ECV 9)
Mind Control - 12d6
Mental Illusions - 12d6
Ego Attack - 7d6
Telepathy - 11d6

And I find that not many (published) villains have Mental Defense. And not many (published) villains have an ECV above 5 (and most are lower than that).

On top of that, when he uses his Mental Illusions to make an enemy think that his teammates are enemies (which only requires EGO+10 to accomplish ... too easy at 12d6), the villains basically only get 1 Breakout Roll. On the villain's next Phase, he gets to make a Breakout Roll. If he misses it, then he has to wait for a full turn before attempting another. And usually he's a gonner before that happens. If he does survive the Turn, and if he misses that next Breakout Roll, then forget about it ... he has to wait for a Minute (of game time) to try again (what is that, like 4.5 Turns?)! AND! Mental Illusions (and Mind Control) don't cost END to maintain. The victim of the power just has to make Breakout Rolls until they succeed.

What I don't want to do is start giving all villains some Mental Defense, or artificially raise their ECVs. I find that HERO System usually has some way of keeping itself balanced, but I don't see it in the case of Mental Powers.

What am I missing here? How do you all deal with Mentalists in your party? Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete? Does every villain need 20 points of Mental Defense?

[handleyj]

Also let me point out that this is a "standard" 350 point campaign with the Standard Super Heroic limits as stated on page 28 of the big book. Most of the other PCs have settled on 60-point powers instead of the 80 points suggested by the rule book.

The powers in the top post above are all about 70 points. I don't mind making him lower them to 60 points -- but that's still 10d6. And of course, then I'm scared about what he'll spend those "saved" points on! ;-)

[DrunkonDUty]

Well, I'm a brick at heart myself. So I hear where you're coming from. Finding challenges for players can be hard enough and more so when it's not in your own specific area of interest.

OK the first thing to do is ask your player to reduce the powers to 60 active points. Explain that you're having enough trouble thinking of interesting challenges as it is and just need them to be within campaign limits to make things easier. And don't be scared of where the points go: a character having a broader range of powers/skills/etc. makes the character more useful in more situations. Helps avoid player boredom and/or overly narrow game focus.

Here's a few other ideas. Mix and match them to change things up. Note I said 'change things up.' You don't want to completely nerf the Mentalist, just give them more of a challenge. Most of the time they should get the effect from their powers that they expect. Remember the player is playing a mentalist because they prefer the fun of confusing and bamboozling the enemy to smashing them through sky-scrapers. (I don't know how this can be, but it takes all kinds. :stupid:)

1. Give the opposition a mentalist of their own. The mentalist can use their powers to counteract the PC's.
2. Psych lims. can make the target needed higher than normal. If the PC does not intentionally aim for this higher level the power does not work. And this can be done without being cheesy at all. For instance: Loyal to Team seems a reasonable psych lim. and it will make mind control that much harder. (although probably not illusions.)
3. In the case you mentioned, making friends look like enemies: In some situations the target may get a bonus to the Breakout roll for situational circumstances. Like if there's 2 of the enemy brick, one of them standing where one of the target's team mates should be and using that friend's signature attack you may decide this justifies giving the target a bonus.
4. In the case of an enemy like VIPER or a Gadgeteer they have the opportunity to go in prepared (assuming they expect to run into the mentalist.) Give the targets some higher Ego and/or Mental defence in a focus.
5. If the target's team realise the target is mind controlled et.al. they can take drastic action to bring them down like targeting vulnerabilities or simply stay out of the mind controlled target's way.
6. The Comeback. Next time the bad guys encounter the Heroes they know to be careful of the Mentalist and target them first and hard.

Cheers mate, hope this helps.

[rauer]

4. In the case of an enemy like VIPER or a Gadgeteer they have the opportunity to go in prepared (assuming they expect to run into the mentalist.) Give the targets some higher Ego and/or Mental defence in a focus.

6. The Comeback. Next time the bad guys encounter the Heroes they know to be careful of the Mentalist and target them first and hard.

Cheers mate, hope this helps.

These two bring back memories for me, and are good to note. Enemies can learn, and some of them can adapt better than others. If the mentalist PC (or, for that matter, any of the PCs) is extremely effective in one encounter, then when the same bad guys face the same PC group again the bad guys might have a new tactic to try and deal with what defeated them before. In the case of VIPER and other agencies, they might actually build files on their enemies and pass them around to some/all of their operatives/nests.

This actually reminds me of an old Battletech game I played in. One character had some stunning die rolls and downed an enemy mech every round for either four or five rounds. In the next session we faced another part of the same enemy 'army', and this part had been briefed on the prior battle and ordered to take out the lucky PC first, since he was clearly 'far more of a threat than any of the others'.

[DrunkonDUty]

One character had some stunning die rolls and downed an enemy mech every round for either four or five rounds. In the next session we faced another part of the same enemy 'army', and this part had been briefed on the prior battle and ordered to take out the lucky PC first, since he was clearly 'far more of a threat than any of the others'.

LOL! That's just mean.

[BNakagawa]

Do the same thing to the heroes.

Once the team brick is Mental Illusioned into beating the mentalist to a pulp, he won't think it's fair anymore...

[Hyper-Man]

Mentalist heroes often close off some avenues of storytelling when they are active members of a team (see Martian Manhunter w/JLA & Marvel Girl w/X-Men). Often, these characters are some of the toughest '1 on 1' characters of their respective teams.

They can be overwhelmed or exhausted though. Mentalist characters usually don't have a lot of END or REC to begin with (compared to other archtypes) and will probably tire more quickly as a result.

Are you currently requiring the players to keep track of END use?

Here is link to I-Mind (http://www.herocentral.net/herocentral/get/files/premium/I-Mind.HTML), a Marvel Girl style mentalist I built years ago with END costs in mind.

[Karma]

Apart from the 'HIT the bald guy... sorry mentalist' approach for the rematch. There are some other ways of coping. remember 'Alien' is a different subset of mind as are 'Animal' and 'machine'. While a brick can put an alien, bear or robot through the wall just as easily as each other a mentalist (unless he's bought additional classes of mind) is useless against them. Now I'm not saying make all your encounters with non-humans, but once the underworld realises that the team has a mentalist they might decide to bring along a few attack dogs trained to go after bald guys (or whatever is a 'distinctive feature' of the mentalist), or they might hire 'the Robot maker', or some Alien bounty-hunter. These are just good sense when dealing with mentalists not 'The GM is out to get me' (which a RKA Mental Damage Shield, would be, in case you want to know). Of course you should team these 'anti-mentalist protections' with humans for the mentalist to effect so that it becomes a case of 'protect the mentalist' for the rest of the team instead of 'stand back and let the mentalist handle it' (which it seems to have been up to now).

Just some ideas.

Heh heh Killing Mental Damage Shield "I make him think his team mate is the enemy" "Yes and meanwhile your head explodes." Heh heh.

[BNakagawa]

One other way to shut down a mentalist...

Mental powers are typically LOS.

Put them in a darkness field and voila - no LOS.

Alternately, use an opaque force wall. None of the listed powers will do much to a force wall.

Or flash them.

[Peregrine]

One other way to shut down a mentalist...

Mental powers are typically LOS.

Put them in a darkness field and voila - no LOS.

Alternately, use an opaque force wall. None of the listed powers will do much to a force wall.

Or flash them.

"Mind Scan ... is a Targeting Sense for other Mental Powers." HSR p. 206; it's an odd mentalist who doesn't have Mind Scan, and a poor GM who bans Mind Scan just to 'rein in' mentalist PCs.

[Utech]

when he uses his Mental Illusions to make an enemy think that his teammates are enemies (which only requires EGO+10 to accomplish ... too easy at 12d6)
Reverse the situation. If you suddenly find that your friends look like enemies, what would you do? Would you immediately attack them? What would your teammates do? Might they find ways to point out who are the enemies and who are the villains?

It's important to remember that while Mental Illusions play with the target's senses, common sense is the last to fall.

Mind Control is another animal. It can be used to make a target attack his friend no matter what his friend looks like. But that kind of control usually requires some pretty high rolls on the part of the mentalist. You blow the roll and you've done nothing but alert the target and put a big target on your shirt.

In my experience, mentalists are most unbalancing out of combat. That is usually handled by either


ensuring that the PC has a clear set of morals that prevent him from taking his advantages to the unbalancing point, or (and)
putting legal restrictions on the use of mental powers.


If your mentalist is too unbalancing in combat, make sure that some of your bad guys think things through before lashing out.

[CrosshairCollie]

"Mind Scan ... is a Targeting Sense for other Mental Powers." HSR p. 206; it's an odd mentalist who doesn't have Mind Scan, and a poor GM who bans Mind Scan just to 'rein in' mentalist PCs.

I can't recall the last time I saw a mentalist with Mind Scan, actually; it's frightfully expensive to have a useful amount of it outside of the main Multipower, and of course if it's in a Multipower you can't use it to project a mental power later after you switch slots.

On another note, I'd think that enemy-switching stunt is a +20, IMHO, plus there's the issue of the powers in question. Sure, you swap things around so that the Human Torch and Abomination changed places, but when the Abomination flies around and throws fireballs, you simply know something's wrong unless you're an idiot.

[Hyper-Man]

I can't recall the last time I saw a mentalist with Mind Scan, actually; it's frightfully expensive to have a useful amount of it outside of the main Multipower, and of course if it's in a Multipower you can't use it to project a mental power later after you switch slots.

...

About the only way I've found to include a semi-useful Mind Scan on a 350 point character is to build it with the Cumulative Advantage and put it inside a 2 slot-at-a-time Multipower.

See my version of the DCU's Martian Manhunter (http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The%20Green%20Alien.html) for an example of this.

[CoreBrute]

Just to clarify a rule, Mental Illusions make a target see what they want to see? If the mentalist doesn't specify does it make him hear it as well or smell it?

For example, The mentalist fights a Daredevil like character. Remember in the early days of Marvel most people didn't know Daredevil was blind. So when Mr Mentalist says, "You see the enemies over there." His sonar tells him that the enemy hasn't moved. "I don't see anything."

Or another one. Wolverine for example can smell different targets. Even if the illusion goes past his nose, he can still smell the original targets. "Sorry bub, I'm not buying it."

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him, He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.

Was this any help?

[CrosshairCollie]

Just to clarify a rule, Mental Illusions make a target see what they want to see? If the mentalist doesn't specify does it make him hear it as well or smell it?

For example, The mentalist fights a Daredevil like character. Remember in the early days of Marvel most people didn't know Daredevil was blind. So when Mr Mentalist says, "You see the enemies over there." His sonar tells him that the enemy hasn't moved. "I don't see anything."

Or another one. Wolverine for example can smell different targets. Even if the illusion goes past his nose, he can still smell the original targets. "Sorry bub, I'm not buying it."

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him, He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.

Was this any help?

Mental Illusions are in the mind; it affects all the target's senses. If Wolverine was successfully affected by 'Sabretooth just went running past' as an illusion, he would smell Sabretooth as well.

[ideasmith]

Just to clarify a rule, Mental Illusions make a target see what they want to see? If the mentalist doesn't specify does it make him hear it as well or smell it?

For example, The mentalist fights a Daredevil like character. Remember in the early days of Marvel most people didn't know Daredevil was blind. So when Mr Mentalist says, "You see the enemies over there." His sonar tells him that the enemy hasn't moved. "I don't see anything."

Or another one. Wolverine for example can smell different targets. Even if the illusion goes past his nose, he can still smell the original targets. "Sorry bub, I'm not buying it."

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him, He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.

Was this any help?

Per 5ER, page 201, Mental Illusions affect all the target's sense groups, and the attacker does not need to know about the senses affected.

So, unless the mentalist is deliberately limiting what senses are affected, or some unusual limitation or house rule is involved, no.

[Balabanto]

1) Try using agents. That automatically lowers the character's effectiveness. If he gets to affect one agent, then three or four agents just blast him. Who cares if a guy with a 10 EGO and an 8d6 EB shoots another guy with a 10 EG0 and an 8d6 EB?

2) Build a brick who's powers are based on his psychokinetic field and give HIM mental defense. Let the misery commence.

3) Entangle the mentalist in a 5d6 Entangle that stops sight. Not only have you shut off all his powers, but his STR will likely prevent him from escaping. He's done.

4) MOST agencies and supervillain teams have a "Get the Mentalist First" strategy. If he's not hiding behind cover or something, tag him right away. Force him to dodge, abort to throw up a force wall, or get behind some cover.

5) Not everything has to be about his hero ID. If he's super-effective, have the villain agencies find out times when he's alone, and offer recruitment. TEMPT him. Of all the character roles, the moral slippery slope for the mentalist is the steepest. Use it.

6) An enemy mentalist can be this PC's worst nightmare. Tamper with the minds of HIS friends. And yes, I have run combats where, literally, no one knew who anyone was, where they were, etc. Everyone's places were switched, there was no idea of who was who, and "The Jeep of Doctor Brutallo" was disabled.

[Hyper-Man]

Per 5ER, page 201, Mental Illusions affect all the target's sense groups, and the attacker does not need to know about the senses affected.

So, unless the mentalist is deliberately limiting what senses are affected, or some unusual limitation or house rule is involved, no.

Yes, but an obviously bad wording of the initial suggestion could still make a difference in the final result (just like using a 'Wish' spell in D&D).

[CoreBrute]

Per 5ER, page 201, Mental Illusions affect all the target's sense groups, and the attacker does not need to know about the senses affected.

So, unless the mentalist is deliberately limiting what senses are affected, or some unusual limitation or house rule is involved, no.

My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Houston GM]

Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete?
Make antagonists that aren't people. Use "Villainy Amok" as an example. One scenario involves rescuing people from a burning building.

Mechanon has lots of minions. They're all robots.

If your mentalist is that effective, it's not unreasonable to have 1/4 of the adventures revolve around problems that can't be solved by messing with human minds.


What am I missing here? How do you all deal with Mentalists in your party? Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete?
Rule #1: Don't give minions sensitive information.

Rule #2: Or deliberately give minions sensitive information so the mentalist can obtain it via Telepathy. Now set up your trap. Bombs are nice because they don't have brains.

Rule #3: As soon as the Mentalist is detected, everyone shoots him first. (Unless someone qualifies as bigger threat.)

Rule #4: Send the pawns in first. Mentalists can't target 20 minions at once.

Rule #5: Just because a villain sees an illusion doesn't mean he believes the illusion. I won't apply this rule unless the Mental Illusion is blatant (like an ally suddenly looking like an enemy).


Rule #6: As others have mentioned, eliminate the Mentailist's ability to target enemies.


Does every villain need 20 points of Mental Defense?
I'd give a major villain 10 points of Mental Defense and 18 EGO (minimum). That makes them almost difficult to take down with mental powers as with any other other means of attack. High-powered villains get much more of both.

[handleyj]

Some really good ideas here! Thanks guys. I want to respond and ask further questions on some of them in particular, but I'm on my cell phone and it's a pain to type too much. However I do have one simple question for now: how bad would it be to house rule that everyone gets a breakout roll during post segment 12. So a breakout roll on the victim's first phase after attack, then every post seg 12 there after?

[bigbywolfe]

On top of that, when he uses his Mental Illusions to make an enemy think that his teammates are enemies (which only requires EGO+10 to accomplish ... too easy at 12d6), the villains basically only get 1 Breakout Roll. On the villain's next Phase, he gets to make a Breakout Roll. If he misses it, then he has to wait for a full turn before attempting another. And usually he's a gonner before that happens. If he does survive the Turn, and if he misses that next Breakout Roll, then forget about it ... he has to wait for a Minute (of game time) to try again (what is that, like 4.5 Turns?)! AND! Mental Illusions (and Mind Control) don't cost END to maintain. The victim of the power just has to make Breakout Rolls until they succeed.

Where are you getting the idea that he has to wait for a full turn if he misses his first breakout roll and a full minute if he misses the second? I just read the entire section on Mental Illusion and glanced at the Mind Control section as well and didn't see that anywhere. Maybe I’m missing something, but I always though a character received a breakout roll every phase they had, just like you get a breakout roll versus being grabbed each phase you have. Someone please correct me (and site a source) if I’m way off base here or something.


Some really good ideas here! Thanks guys. I want to respond and ask further questions on some of them in particular, but I'm on my cell phone and it's a pain to type too much. However I do have one simple question for now: how bad would it be to house rule that everyone gets a breakout roll during post segment 12. So a breakout roll on the victim's first phase after attack, then every post seg 12 there after?

See above.

[Hugh Neilson]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Where are you getting the idea that he has to wait for a full turn if he misses his first breakout roll and a full minute if he misses the second? I just read the entire section on Mental Illusion and glanced at the Mind Control section as well and didn't see that anywhere. Maybe I’m missing something, but I always though a character received a breakout roll every phase they had, just like you get a breakout roll versus being grabbed each phase you have. Someone please correct me (and site a source) if I’m way off base here or something

Try reading the section on Mental Powers.


After the initial attempt to break free [which occurs in the character's first phase - HN], the victim can re-attempt the breakout roll at +1 for each step on the Time Chart. The character thus gets to roll at +1 after 1 Turn has passed, +2 after 1 Minute has passed, and so forth. (The victim does not get to make a Breakout Roll on each of his Phases - only when specified by the Time Chart.)

[bigbywolfe]

Thank you. I'm surprised that that is not alluded to in the sections that actually deal with the individual powers. Thanks for the reference.

[incrdbil]

So I have to admit that I am a Brick by nature. But I'm GM'ing for a character that is a Mentalist, and I'm having a hard time making combat a challenge for this PC. A sample of his powers include:

Ego - 26 (ECV 9)
Mind Control - 12d6
Mental Illusions - 12d6
Ego Attack - 7d6
Telepathy - 11d6

What am I missing here? How do you all deal with Mentalists in your party? Does every villain team need a Mentalist to compete? Does every villain need 20 points of Mental Defense?

recall--without paying End--seperate from the power, the breakout roll does improve.

A few dice fo flash can play hell with a mentalist. Darkness, images, etc. Or, when in doubt..robots.

[bigbywolfe]

Something from the FAQ that may help you out:


If a character knows that the person attacking him has Mental Illusions as a power, does that hinder the attacker’s chances of creating a successful illusion?
It may depend on the circumstances, but generally yes. Treat the knowledge of the power as requiring a +10 modifier to the Effect Roll to achieve the desired effect.

[bigbywolfe]

Also from 5ER Page 200:

The target of a Mental Illusion receives a chance to make a Breakout Roll (with a bonus to the roll) if the illusion performs in a way that doesn’t meet his expectations…At the GM’s discretion, he receives additional bonuses to his roll if other persons try to “snap him out of it.
Those two sentences are, in my mind, key to dealing with a mentalist.

[Grimble]

Two words...Killer Robots! :eg:

[CrosshairCollie]

Also from 5ER Page 200:

Those two sentences are, in my mind, key to dealing with a mentalist.

I agree. Many of the suggestions for 'balancing mental powers' were just 'punishing mentalist players'; merely punitive hosers rather than actually analyzing the issue and coming up with a real answer.

[Psybolt]

A mentalist villain is a great way to go. Psybolt used to be a villainous character in my campaign who the PCs never wanted to see. In fact, they rarely spoke his name in fer of his "hearing" it. Of course, he was massively abusive points wise and before the 5E took mentalists down a bit. Psybolt the character is no longer in any campaigns of mine and has been officially retired. But a good villain mentalist is as fun as a shape shifter can be with messing with the good guys.

[Ockham's Spoon]

I agree. Many of the suggestions for 'balancing mental powers' were just 'punishing mentalist players'; merely punitive hosers rather than actually analyzing the issue and coming up with a real answer.

I have to agree with you there. The idea is for everyone to have fun. Mentalists are difficult to deal with because they tend to be either super-effective or useless, depending on whether their adversaries have brains or not.

For mentalist villians it doesn't matter because they are villians and it is okay for them to be lopsided. But in campaigns I have run, the rule is that you cannot make a character that is completely castrated by a particular situation, be that the mentalist against robots, power-armor guy without his armor, or supernatural creature who is only buffed at night. That may not fit exactly with the initial character conception, but it makes the game a lot more fun because the hero doesn't alternate between unstoppably powerful (which is a bummer for other PCs) and pathetically wimpy (which is a bummer for the mentalist).

I would suggest that your mentalist hero drop his mental powers a little to make him less dominating against the average foe, and use those points to round him out (buy martial arts, some backup weapon, or maybe empathic healing or something and let him buff his teammates).

One other trick to "balancing" mentalists is to break up their powers so that the first 8d6 works automatically, but the next 4d6 depends on a successful telepathic probe to find the opponents mental weaknesses (say Telepathy at EGO+10; this would be a -1/2 limitation on the extra dice). If you require an actual use of Telepathy, this will really slow the mentalist down, either because he will have to alternate mental attacks with Telepathy, or he will burn through endurance if he does a Multiple Power Attack. But you can also just call it a -1/2 limitation like Requires Skill Roll, but instead of a 3d6 skill roll, use the Telepathy mechanic to determine if he is successful (ie rolled EGO+10). You should probably give the mentalist some insight into his foes Psych Lims this way, and maybe give him a bonus for fights with reoccuring opponents.

Finally, one other way to keep the mentalist from dominating things is to realize that most people hate the thought of having their minds toyed with; it isn't really a Psych Lim or a Berserk, but I don't think it unreasonable to give most people a +1 or +2 to their Breakout roll depending on the circumstances. That won't stop the mentalist from controlling/confusing most people because as you noted EGOs tend to run low, but it takes the edge off a bit.

[handleyj]

Two words...Killer Robots! :eg:

Yeah, unfortunately he's got "Human and Machine classes of minds" on all the powers. He's a cyborg type. But Aliens! Oh, the aliens are coming out! Thanks for the suggestion.

[handleyj]

Also from 5ER Page 200:

Those two sentences are, in my mind, key to dealing with a mentalist.

Yes! This is excellent. It gives a role playing way to dictate that a victim gets a breakout roll with more frequency. I may still impose the "everyone gets a breakout roll on post-seg 12" rule. As I also wouldn't want a player to be out of the combat for as long as the Time Chart dictates. Also, I'm not sure, but other mental powers (like Mind Control) may not have the same rule (I'll read up on it later). And so in the case of other mental powers, the post-seg 12 house rule still gives more breakout attempts ... at what I would consider a fair amount of time.

But (at least in the case of Mental Illusions), those sentences give us the opportunity to make more breakout rolls. One of the interesting side effects of this rule is that if someone is attempting to help with a breakout roll, then they've effectively given up a phase in order to help. I like it.

[handleyj]

Something from the FAQ that may help you out:
If a character knows that the person attacking him has Mental Illusions as a power, does that hinder the attacker’s chances of creating a successful illusion?
It may depend on the circumstances, but generally yes. Treat the knowledge of the power as requiring a +10 modifier to the Effect Roll to achieve the desired effect.

Also excellent. Thanks!

[handleyj]

1) Try using agents. That automatically lowers the character's effectiveness. If he gets to affect one agent, then three or four agents just blast him. Who cares if a guy with a 10 EGO and an 8d6 EB shoots another guy with a 10 EG0 and an 8d6 EB?

2) Build a brick who's powers are based on his psychokinetic field and give HIM mental defense. Let the misery commence.

3) Entangle the mentalist in a 5d6 Entangle that stops sight. Not only have you shut off all his powers, but his STR will likely prevent him from escaping. He's done.

4) MOST agencies and supervillain teams have a "Get the Mentalist First" strategy. If he's not hiding behind cover or something, tag him right away. Force him to dodge, abort to throw up a force wall, or get behind some cover.

5) Not everything has to be about his hero ID. If he's super-effective, have the villain agencies find out times when he's alone, and offer recruitment. TEMPT him. Of all the character roles, the moral slippery slope for the mentalist is the steepest. Use it.

6) An enemy mentalist can be this PC's worst nightmare. Tamper with the minds of HIS friends. And yes, I have run combats where, literally, no one knew who anyone was, where they were, etc. Everyone's places were switched, there was no idea of who was who, and "The Jeep of Doctor Brutallo" was disabled.

1) Not sure how agents "automatically lowers the character's effectiveness?" I think you're suggesting he'd waste time using his powers on the agents. However, were I the Metalist, I'd ignore the agents, and Mind Control/Mental Illusion the Brick, and have said Brick take out the agents.

2) Hmm ... I like that!

3) AWESOME! I hadn't thought about attacking the LOS requirement at all.

4) Yup.

5) Another AWESOME idea!

6) Yup.

[handleyj]

I can't recall the last time I saw a mentalist with Mind Scan, actually; it's frightfully expensive to have a useful amount of it outside of the main Multipower, and of course if it's in a Multipower you can't use it to project a mental power later after you switch slots.


I'm going to start another thread on Mind Scan in particular. It's one of those powers that really confuses me.



On another note, I'd think that enemy-switching stunt is a +20...

Nope. 5ER page 201: "Major Changes -- Making friends look and act like enemies" Then on the table on that same page, EGO+10 = Major Changes.


...plus there's the issue of the powers in question. Sure, you swap things around so that the Human Torch and Abomination changed places, but when the Abomination flies around and throws fireballs, you simply know something's wrong unless you're an idiot.

As I mentioned in one of the previous posts, this is the bestest idea! Thanks!

[handleyj]

Also if the mentalist's favourite move is making the enemies fight each other why not use one big enemy rather then a group? Or one huge enemy who is an animal or an alien (Firewing) and the rest are much weaker human agents he has hired. If any of the agents turn on him, He fireballs them. So heroes with code vs Killing won't want humans (no matter how villainous) killing each other.

I love this idea! He does have a code vs. killing type disad (not exactly, but close enough).

Thanks!

[handleyj]

Sure, you swap things around so that the Human Torch and Abomination changed places, but when the Abomination flies around and throws fireballs, you simply know something's wrong unless you're an idiot.

Actually the more I think about this, the more I'm not sure it would work. For example:


Mental Illusions are in the mind; it affects all the target's senses. If Wolverine was successfully affected by 'Sabretooth just went running past' as an illusion, he would smell Sabretooth as well.

Wouldn't your previous example there be the same thing. The victim of the Human Torch/Abomination illusion wouldn't see Abomination flying around and throwing fireballs. Right? Wrong?

So I'm not really sure how this stuff from 5ER Page 200:


The target of a Mental Illusion receives a chance to make a Breakout Roll (with a bonus to the roll) if the illusion performs in a way that doesn’t meet his expectations...

...can really be implemented? Help...

[Tasha]

Actually the more I think about this, the more I'm not sure it would work. For example:



Wouldn't your previous example there be the same thing. The victim of the Human Torch/Abomination illusion wouldn't see Abomination flying around and throwing fireballs. Right? Wrong?

So I'm not really sure how this stuff from 5ER Page 200:



...can really be implemented? Help...

If the MI target thought that Torchie was Abomination. When Torchie first flew up he would see Abomination making a standard Superleap. The Fireballs would be seen as rocks being thrown. The incongrous part would be if Torchie were to hover (something that Abomination couldn't do) then the MI target would get a Breakout roll.

BTW If it were me I would have your Mentalist bring the Ego attack down to 6d6. Seeing as that is an NND (no Normal Defense) attack for like 80% of folk out there it is a big attack.

Also the ECV is a bit high IMHO, I would recommend that he drop it to 20 (ECV 7) that way he has some chance to fail against folk with 11ego (ecv 4)

For other ideas. Remember that some villainous agencies will eventually pull out their elite agent with the PsyHelms (Mental Def OIF), and conditioned to work together as a team (ie Completely loyal to Viper Common/Strong).

Also Villains that are hard cases (ie Wolverine) could have mental defenses based on being stubborn, or having training for resisting mentalists.

Also, Mental feedback for those who are insane or psychotic (does damage to mentalist due to shocking images at the highest levels of the mind, (ie Damage shield vs Ego, does Ego Damage NND (defense being a murderous sack of stuff or having 25 Pre)

Flashes work well. Basically anything that breaks LOS. Opaque Entangles are good.

The thing is to have enough if this kind of stuff where the character isn't walking over the opposition constantly, but you don't want to be constantly beating the character down or keeping him from doing his thing.

Tasha

[Balabanto]

Another few things you can do, now that I've had some time to think about.

1) Zen No-Mind. The Clouded Mind Perceives My Mind Not. A martial artist goes before the mentalist. He can have mental defense, and he hits really, really hard.

2) Darkness Lad. Darkness Lad is just like what's above, only he just moves up to the Mentalist, puts him in the dark, and beats him up. WARNING. This is broken beyond all rational belief. Darkness+Grab+High Strength equals a total victory combo that is excessively difficult to defeat without being a powergamey cheesemonkey. I tend to limit characters who have this combination of powers a lot. This doesn't just beat the mentalist. It beats everyone without special senses except a Brick.

3) Agents Part Two: Agents can have DMSO grenades. That's right. They can throw grenades that drain the target's EGO score. If there's eight guys, and each one throws a 2d6 Ranged Ego Drain, he just lost 56 points of EGO. Now his ECV is a 1 if his EGO was 30 to start with. If, as is more likely, his EGO is 23 or so, he's making EGO rolls to take actions himself.

4) STR Drain Bombs. Rude? Yes. Debilitating to the Brick also? Yes. But the MEntalist, at most, will have a STR of 10-15. If the hero can't lift his own weight anymore, he can't move. Then the villains do whatever they want after turning him in a direction he can't see, and leave after pinning a "Help me, I was a mentalist and they stuck a note on my butt with a clue to their next crime" sign on his behind.

[Hugh Neilson]

Nope. 5ER page 201: "Major Changes -- Making friends look and act like enemies" Then on the table on that same page, EGO+10 = Major Changes.

IIRC, the EGO + 20 section has the example of making friends look and act like enemies. So the EGO + 10 result would have a flying Abomination shooting fireballs, much more incongruous.

[ideasmith]

IIRC, the EGO + 20 section has the example of making friends look and act like enemies. So the EGO + 10 result would have a flying Abomination shooting fireballs, much more incongruous.

In general, when someone cites a page number, it indicates that that someone looked it up.

When I checked the same page that handleyj looked up and cited, I found the same wording that handleyj looked up and quoted.

[jkwleisemann]

1) Not sure how agents "automatically lowers the character's effectiveness?" I think you're suggesting he'd waste time using his powers on the agents. However, were I the Metalist, I'd ignore the agents, and Mind Control/Mental Illusion the Brick, and have said Brick take out the agents.

Agents automatically lower the character's effectiveness because it takes time to take out a half-dozen mooks with blasters.

Yeah, he can mind control the brick, but while the Brick is nailing Mook #1, Mooks #2-6 are shooting the Mind Controller, Coordinating their shots, and sending him to Con Stun central.

More importantly, as mentioned, aliens are immune to his powers entirely. Also, you might want to look at my favored approach - the Nemesis Character. Give him a dedicated opponent, so to speak, who isn't designed to completely slaughter him, but to be an equal challenge. Most players appreciate this far more than a ridiculous number of foes they can't affect, and pitting the two mentalists against each other is a good way to keep everybody challenged.

Just give your Nemesis a sense of honor or some other compelling reason for him to focus on the opposing nemesis - my personal preference, in this situation? Half-alien Hybrid with an alien mentalist parent. You've got a perfectly logical reason for him to have hefty defenses against this character's mental powers, and his alien parent might well have raised him with a code of honor that means he only uses his mental powers against an opponent with similar powers of their own.

Entirely plausible, and it gives them a reason to fight each other while not spending the whole fight turning their enemies into chessmen to be used against each other.

[Mephron]

I was in one of Balabanto's combats - the one mentioned with lots of mental illusions and mind control. The problem is that the villian mentalist controlled my character with a VERY good control condition: 'attack the person who looks like x'.

Admittedly, once the other PCs realized that, they hit me with a mental illusion to swap the appearances of the target and the mentalist. (Yeah. My PC was hit by mental effect by BOTH sides. Sad, isn't it, when your friends do that to you...)

[Hugh Neilson]

In general, when someone cites a page number, it indicates that that someone looked it up.

When I checked the same page that handleyj looked up and cited, I found the same wording that handleyj looked up and quoted.

Maybe I'm thinking of a prior edition. I recall there being a chart which included "Friends look like enemies" at one level with "friends look and act like enemies" 10 points higher, but it may be pre 5e. Re-reading the priginal comment, maybe "look like enemies" is at a lower level.

Since I don't bring my books to work, looking it up while here is tougher.

[ghost-angel]

5ER is pretty clear; p201

Major Changes the first thing listed: "Making friends look and act like enemies"

Major Changes is EGO+10 on the MI chart.

[handleyj]

Yeah, but Hugh is almost right. There is a level for "Making friends look like (but not act like) enemies." It's considered a "Cosmetic Change" and only requires an EGO+1 (i.e. "Greater than EGO") effect roll.

Thanks everyone for the help!

[DocMan]

Try reading the section on Mental Powers


After the initial attempt to break free [which occurs in the character's first phase - HN], the victim can re-attempt the breakout roll at +1 for each step on the Time Chart. The character thus gets to roll at +1 after 1 Turn has passed, +2 after 1 Minute has passed, and so forth. (The victim does not get to make a Breakout Roll on each of his Phases - only when specified by the Time Chart.)

But if the initial attempt to break free fails, a character's teammates can attempt to aid him and get him another breakout role. The aid could be an Aid to Ego, or just "That's your partner, you idiot! The Mentalist is making you see things! Snap out of it!"

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, its been my experience that most characters make their breakout rolls fairly often, and that mentalists are therefore very erratic in their effectiveness unless you bring cumulative and taking multiple actions to achieve an effect into the mix.

Im in a hurry, but a few quick points:

1) Any psylims that are applicable count as EGO for purposes of mental powers; trying to make a person kill is considerably harder if they have a Code vs Killing for instance.

2) Out of cycle Breakout rolls are allowed any time something hinky occurs that doesnt jive w/ the level of effect achieved.

3) Sentient characters are considered to be "Human" class of mind. If they have additional classes of minds such as Robot having a Machine Class mind they take them as a PhysLim in addition to the assumed default of "Human". The Class of Mind effect is not intended to offer mental immunity. If a character wants to represent they are protected vs "human class" of mind due to having a "Machine Class of Mind" or whatever they buy limited Mental Defense to that effect. Animals and automatons are not sentient and this doesnt apply.


4) If a mentalist does not have IPE at the +1/2 level then their targets KNOW they are being attacked and get some useful info; this is covered in the Mental powers description at the start of the Powers chapter.

5) Even if a character doesn't have Mental Defense or a high EGO you can take 2 point skill levels usable with Breakout rolls. Its not entirely efficient, but it does model a particular concept of having no mitigation but being able to shake off long term mental effects. Something like:

10 1) Determined: +5 with Breakout Rolls

[Hugh Neilson]

But if the initial attempt to break free fails, a character's teammates can attempt to aid him and get him another breakout role. The aid could be an Aid to Ego, or just "That's your partner, you idiot! The Mentalist is making you see things! Snap out of it!"

Absolutely - that's covered somewhere else in the rules. Of course, if the Mentalist is making me see things, he should be smart enough to make me HEAR things as well. But the "extra breakout roll when friend tries to assist" is a tried and true trope in the source material, as well as a rule in the rulebook, and should not be lightly dismissed.

[DocMan]

I've thought of a few other ways of approaching a too-effective mentalist that I haven't seen here.

If the character is known to have mental powers, it isn't out of character for local bad guys to take precautions against him. And any "super-genius" class villain is out of character if they aren't taking precautions. Precautions can include the previously mentioned mental defense, increased ego, and Mental Damage Shield, but they can also take the form of items designed to take the steam out of any mentalist's sails. Such as:

a) The anti-mentalist gun: 6d6 NND attack where the defense is having 0 MD. Even more effective with continuous or area effect.
b) The Mental Power suppressor: xd6 suppress vs powers based on ECV, Area Effect, cumulative
c) Anti-Psionics field: This is more of a trope, but just like you can have anti-magic fields that shut down the mage, you can have anti-Psi fields to shut down mental powers.

Doc

[Checkmate]

BTW If it were me I would have your Mentalist bring the Ego attack down to 6d6. Seeing as that is an NND (no Normal Defense) attack for like 80% of folk out there it is a big attack.
It's actually an AVLD but we get the idea :D


Also the ECV is a bit high IMHO, I would recommend that he drop it to 20 (ECV 7) that way he has some chance to fail against folk with 11ego (ecv 4)

Would you do the same thing with a Martial Artist? Make them have a hard time with someone with an 11 DEX? Remember he's spent points to raise his EGO, that means he sacrificed something else. He also needs that EGO to determine his position in the intuitive line. I would recommend he drop it, but wouldn't make him go lower than 23 (which is a typical DEX for an Energy Projector).
[/QUOTE]

I would look more to solutions that hinder the mentalist and avoid situations that totally negate him. I mean would you send the Martial Artist against a bunch of goons that are Desoid with STR usable while Desolid? It's the same effect.

[BNakagawa]

I've thought of a few other ways of approaching a too-effective mentalist that I haven't seen here.

If the character is known to have mental powers, it isn't out of character for local bad guys to take precautions against him. And any "super-genius" class villain is out of character if they aren't taking precautions. Precautions can include the previously mentioned mental defense, increased ego, and Mental Damage Shield, but they can also take the form of items designed to take the steam out of any mentalist's sails. Such as:

a) The anti-mentalist gun: 6d6 NND attack where the defense is having 0 MD. Even more effective with continuous or area effect.
b) The Mental Power suppressor: xd6 suppress vs powers based on ECV, Area Effect, cumulative
c) Anti-Psionics field: This is more of a trope, but just like you can have anti-magic fields that shut down the mage, you can have anti-Psi fields to shut down mental powers.

Doc

FWIW, the rules specifically state that the lack of something (mental defense is cited as an example) is an inappropriate defense for an NND.

[KA.]

I don't want to make this into "punish the mentalist" as much fun as that is, but you should make him a priority for any team he faces, once they know about his powers.

You may want to push him in the direction of using his mental powers a bit less often, using other abilities, if any, just to avoid the possible repercussions.

"Do you really want to humiliate Ripper by having him attack his own team?"

To quote Verbal Kint:
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"

For one thing, not all villains have Code vs. Killing.

Any villain that Mind Machine Man faces, that has any kind of combination of Casual Killer and Egomania is going to do something really fast and really nasty the second time they meet.

Instead of a Flash or Darkness, they might decide to just blind him, or kill him.

People tend to freak out over the idea of someone messing with their minds, and doing that to a personality that is anti-social/psychopathic to begin with could be a recipe for quick untimely death.

Also, since the power is not fully invisible, unless the Brick can take out his own team in a single phase, Mr. Mind should expect to be hit with a withering crossfire from the rest of the other team as soon as they realize what is going on.

Another possibility on a second encounter would be having the Brick pretend to fall for the illusion.
He turns to a team-mate and grabs him: "I'll crush you Captain Hero!" and then the next round, while Mind Master is looking for his next target, Brickhouse sends his grabbed teammate, who coincidentally happens to be Clawmaster, right at Mind Master for a Surprise Fastball Special.

KA.

[incrdbil]

There may be a more mechnical thing to look at--beyond punishign the player for playing a character (which a lot of these 'methods' involve) I suggest reviewing the mental rules, making use of the breakout chances, and also giving your mentalist options other than always mind-controlling or using an illusion--maybe they have a less used TK power. There's all sorts of ways a villain can distract a Hero and make him use that power instead of attacking--for example, take an innocent bystander, and toss them off a bridge or building. It's much easier, and quicker for the TK using mentalist to catch that person than anyone else fly after them. It gives the player a chance to be heroic, and the villains a break.

Smart Villain tricks: have a villain pretend to be far more affected by a mental power than they are (especially if it fails outright) then launch a suprise attack.

if you need a power that just helps with breakout rolls, consider buying levels with EGO rolls, only for breakout attempts after the initial roll, easily a -1 to -11/2 modifier. It doesn't quickly negate the immediate effect, but helps on that crucial turn roll. Call it the delayed "Get..out..of..my MIND!" effect. the menatlist will have to re-apply, or pay endurance to maintain the power, which gets very endurance intensive. (Dont forget the time bonus if the player doesnt maintain the control--and buying to zeo end doesnt help--you have to buy reduced endurance again to affect the maintenance endurance cost per the Ultimate Mentalist.