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Killer Shrike
May 16th, '09, 11:27 AM
I posted this in another thread ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72821 ); and it got me to wondering how people would feel about playing in such a campaign so I thought I would post up a poll.


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Event-driven Experience

This method of awarding experience requires players to have solid concepts and already have a vague idea of where they want their character to go.

Decide what the starting and max power levels of the game are and determine the difference between them; for purposes of example I'm going to say 150 - 550 with a difference of 500. This difference is the max possible XP that can be earned (or at least a working approximation) in the campaign. Split this number in half; so 250 in this case.

Have each player define between three and ten possible "life events" that they envision as being meaningful for their character. This could be some accomplishment, a goal, a rank, defeating an important enemy, traveling to some exotic locale, etc.

The GM exercises veto / interpretation rights on the events. Alternately the GM can also add one or more events (and may or may not disclose the nature of them to the player but should indicate that they have defined some number of events and further should write them down so that if the players later express doubt that the GM is playing it straight, there is a record of fair play). If the GM adds events, they shouldn't add more than say half as many events as the player, to avoid the perception that they not the player are really making the character. Thus if a player defined 5 events, the GM shouldn't define more than 2 or 3 events if any.

Divide the previously figured potential XP by the number of events defined for the character. Each time an event is accomplished, the character gets that many XP points to "power up" with. In the case of GM-defined events the GM might instead spend the points and assign abilities to the character. Alternately the GM can modify the points each event is worth, taking points from less momentous events and putting them on more significant events.

Players using this system earn half as much regular XP in the usual per-game allocation.

Alternately, if the numbers are too large to suit you, you can divide the difference by 4 instead of 2, and grant 3/4 XP instead of 1/2 XP. Using the 500 point spread, that would work out to 125 event points. It's all just a numbers game, so find a place on the slide that works for your purposes.

Thus, working with our example numbers, lets say Joe is playing the Mage Adronicus. He has a pretty good bg worked out involving a kindly master, and another apprentice who betrayed the master and took his spellbooks and tried to kill Adronicus. Joe defines the following life events for Adronicus:

1) Get revenge for the Master
2) Recover the Masters spellbooks
3) Be recognized as a Master Mage by the applicable in-game community
4) Build a tower and establish a power base
5) Take on at least one apprentice

The GM looks at that list and adds two more, but doesn't tell Joe what they are:

6) Create a personalized spell or a significant magic item
7) Overcome some significant challenge using abilities other than his magic

So, 250 points / 7 = ~35 XP. Unless the GM opts to divvy the points up by hand, accomplishment of each event would grant +35 XP (or using the 1/4 option each event would be worth 18 points instead).

Downsides: If an event is not accomplished, the character simply doesn't ever get the points attached to it.


To extend the example, Fred has a barbarian named Uaga, Mike has a halfling named Gibs Lightfingers, and Amy has a Cleric named Vailia. The each define the following events for their characters:

Fred / Uaga:
1) Get a bitchin sword (magic or historically important)
2) be disarmed and imprisoned and manage to escape from it
3) defeat some kind of unnatural beast in hand to hand combat
4) seize the throne of a nation
The GM adds:
5) Face danger to rescue at least one slave girl from a fate worse than death
6) Slay a powerful magic user

Mike / Gibs:
1) Steal something valuable that is protected by high security
2) Become a big player in a major thieves guild or equivalent thereof
3) Acquire a kingly fortune with his skills, only to spend it all frivolously / whimsically
The GM adds:
4) Escape a real life or death situation via clever action vs force

Amy / Vailia:
1) Become a High Priestess of her Church
2) Contribute to the temporal presence of her Church in a significant way (found a new congregation, personally gain some significant converts (like a head of state or a large community or a champion / hero), rescue a lost relic, etc)
3) Gain an audience before the Most High (Pope-equivalent) of her Church by way of her service to the order
The GM adds:
4) Resolve a major conflict / threat without force or aggression


EDIT: Did a formalized write up of this and posted it on el website:

Event Driven HERO (http://www.killershrike.info/GeneralMetaConceptsEventDrivenHERO.ashx?NoRedirect =1)

pinecone
May 16th, '09, 02:06 PM
Looks like a cool way to go...it makes the goal/story interaction much stronger....personally I'd like the lower chunk of ep per life defining moment my self though...

bigbywolfe
May 16th, '09, 11:02 PM
I don’t have the experience to run such a game, but I would greatly like to play in one like you describe.

ghost-angel
May 16th, '09, 11:37 PM
Our High Powered campaign switched to something similar to this about 6 years in. It ran for another 6 years or so.

It wasn't nearly as structured though. Essentially anything the Players wanted to do had to be initiated in game, followed through with, and eventually obtained In Game.

Some events were forced on the Characters by outside Plot influences (vs Character Generated Plots) and new goals and abilities were obtained through those experiences as well.

Over time you would see point disparities in characters, and it also became apparent that actual Point Totals were meaningless, since almost all abilities were gained through the game and used in the game to even get acquired, they all saw appropriate usage.

It works well with the correct group. Very well.

Utech
May 17th, '09, 12:08 AM
Whether or not this is used as a means to earn XP, I think it's a good way to launch a game.

I think it is also important for GMs and Players to be flexible. It may be that after the first three (or so) events are accomplished, it's clear that changes should be made to the ones that follow.
After getting revenge for the Master, recovering the Masters spellbooks, and being recognized as a Master Mage by the applicable in-game community, it may be clear that building a tower would be pointless. Through good roleplaying and group story-crafting, it's clear that Adronicus and the rest of the group should be headed to a different kingdom.

Sean Waters
May 17th, '09, 04:30 AM
I've always had a bit of an odd approach to XP as it strikes me as one of the most abstracted aspects of rpgs anyway. This approach makes a lot of sense. You can treat each XP event as a chapter, or even a book in the life of the character: during he course of a chapter/book the character's abilities do not necessarily change greatly, but between episodes they incorporate the information and skills they have learned to beceom more powerful.

Whilst not right for every game, this could be a very exciting approach and makes things very goal oriented.

Vondy
May 17th, '09, 09:36 AM
Its a little rigid in terms of structure (I'm used to a much more amorphous instantiation of a very similar idea), but I would be all in!

Killer Shrike
May 17th, '09, 09:43 AM
I don’t have the experience to run such a game, but I would greatly like to play in one like you describe.

Well, in some ways it might actually be easier to gm such a game. The players are giving you the plot points that they want to make them happy so you don't have to guess, and they are also incentivized to actively pursue them so you don't have to deal with the frustration of hanging random plot points out and hoping players bite on them only to have them blithely ignore / not even notice them.

In fact, you could compose your campaign around the skeleton provided by the PC's life events -- gen up content to address their individual goals while mixing in your stuff as well.

Basically, this kind of up-front plotting is a form of collaboration with the players and can ease your gm-ing burden rather than add to it.

Killer Shrike
May 17th, '09, 11:37 PM
Did a formalized write up of this and posted it on el website:

Event-Driven HERO (http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/metaconcepts/EventDrivenHERO.aspx)

Sean Waters
May 18th, '09, 03:26 AM
This seems to me a bit like the DnD idea, especially in some of the video games, that resolving certain issues nets a reward in XP.

It is not the right way to run XP, but then there isn't a right way to do it - you have to match what works for the GM and the players and the game. It is certainly an excellent option and, I think, echoes a lot of heroic fiction in that you have advancement based on specific things happening.

For example you could have an XP reward for beating the top gladiator int he gladiator school you are in. Built right you should generally lose, but the dice will eventuially be in your favour. Once you do win that sdignals an improvement in your voerall talent which is marked by the XP award.

It seems to me, in fact, that this sort of advancement could be quite nicely done in a game without 'build' character sheets as they are not really necessary.

fbdaury
May 18th, '09, 06:07 AM
I think it is a very neat idea and if I ever get a game off the ground, I`d like to give it a try, if you would be okay with me using the idea...

Killer Shrike
May 18th, '09, 06:38 AM
I think it is a very neat idea and if I ever get a game off the ground, I`d like to give it a try, if you would be okay with me using the idea...

Of course!

Alcamtar
May 18th, '09, 11:05 AM
It wasn't nearly as structured though. Essentially anything the Players wanted to do had to be initiated in game, followed through with, and eventually obtained In Game.

This sounds similar to an event-driven XP system that was written up for the Fudge RPG: http://www.fudgefactor.org/2001/11/01/this_time_its_personal.html
Essentially a character defines a short list of goals (with GM approval) which are worth from 1-4 XP depending on the time and difficulty required to complete them.

I tried it and like it, but some players will try to "game" the system and some will have a hard time choosing meaningful (or clearly defined) goals.

Lucius
May 18th, '09, 04:38 PM
Events keep driving me towards this kind of idea, actually...

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary suspects that Lucius will soon expand upon that, if not in this thread than in another.

AmadanNaBriona
May 19th, '09, 04:48 PM
to quote the Duke from Moulin Rouge...
"Generally, I like it."

A very similar alternative would be to dispense XP in the usual fashion, but require an Event to spend it.

Sean Waters
May 19th, '09, 10:55 PM
to quote the Duke from Moulin Rouge...
"Generally, I like it."

A very similar alternative would be to dispense XP in the usual fashion, but require an Event to spend it.

I like that too....:thumbup:

Killer Shrike
May 20th, '09, 05:29 AM
to quote the Duke from Moulin Rouge...
"Generally, I like it."

A very similar alternative would be to dispense XP in the usual fashion, but require an Event to spend it.
A viable alternative; Ill get that added to the doc under variants.

In more gritty games, I often use a rule that each XP expenditure must be justified by things the player actually did in the session(s) the XP was rewarded for which is a similar approach.

The piece that is missing however are the cases where characters pick up a nice little chunk of new abilities rather than little enhancements over time, which is what this means is intended to accommodate.

Sean Waters
May 20th, '09, 06:57 AM
To overcomplicate :whistle:, you could always have a system like this for picking up new abilities and a more standard XP system for improving existing ones.

Killer Shrike
May 20th, '09, 04:54 PM
To overcomplicate :whistle:, you could always have a system like this for picking up new abilities and a more standard XP system for improving existing ones.

It does have that; the character gets some fraction of experience via the standard method (noted as 1/2 in the document but configurable as desired), and the remaining fraction of potential xp is gained via events.

Killer Shrike
May 28th, '09, 09:39 AM
A very similar alternative would be to dispense XP in the usual fashion, but require an Event to spend it.

Added this as a option under Variants at the end: Event Driven HERO (http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/metaconcepts/EventDrivenHERO.aspx)

Pattern Ghost
Jun 8th, '09, 06:09 AM
As I said in the other thread, I like to plan out advancement in... ahead of time. =)

I'd definitely go for this set up.

AmadanNaBriona
Jun 13th, '09, 03:24 PM
Given my predilection towards high starting point games, I've gotten used to having my characters fairly conceptually "complete" and quite skilled from the mpoment of creation, so we've usually tended towards this kind of saving play anyway... the occasional XP might get spent here or there for things picked up in play (Perks, Languages, etc) but for the most part we'd usually just hoard XP through a whole campaign arc, then rework our characters during their downtime radiation accident style.

Just because I'm feeling nostaligic, I'll relate a typical case...

An example off the top of my head was my Einherjar, Grimwald. He STARTED just past his prime, already bearing a crippling curse but an awesome destroyer of the undead. In my second game playing him I bearhugged a wight to death. By the end of the campaign he was in possession of an artifact level magic sword of immense buttkicking which required ongoing Con rolls to avoid rather nasty Side Effects involving blood pressure, heart attacks and the like. The thing damn near killed him in the big climatic fight with the big bad.
So, in the downtime I took that ginormus hunk of points and bought him a small title, a nice Hall to hang that damned Sword in, and shifted his main focus into a galdr-vitki (runemaster). I bumped some of his extant KS's up, added Magic skill and a few rune spells, and swapped out some somewhat played out disads for a new Physical Lim and Susceptibility to reflect the long term damage inflicted by the sword.


So yeah, this system would be full of Epic win for me... it's my preferred way of shifting things anyway.
My magnum opus FH game has something like this hardcoded into it, in that there are several optional starting point levels, with the lower starting values being offset by XP bonuses, with the explicit understanding that characters may undergo "Retraining" story arcs that step them up the starting point category ladder with the appropriate extra points and loss of bonuses.
This was designed to allow for the "Orphaned Farmgirl taken in by Warrior Nuns" kinda characters

Killer Shrike
Jul 14th, '09, 08:29 AM
Moved this document to the wiki.