Reverse Gravity

[hammersickle59]

I need suggestions as to what this implies and what powers to use to express it.

As a base i'm thinking, everything/everyone in a certain area falls upward a certain amount, then starts falling back down, and then would take fall damage like normal (if they couldn't avert it using the various ways to get around fall damage).

Any other implications this might have? How would you build the above?

Thanks in advance,

Dean

[Killer Shrike]

This is usually handled with limited AoE TK.

[hammersickle59]

Sounds good. A bit expensive to have enough TK St to chuck people very far, but it works.

Thanks KS.

Dean

[TheDux]

For a true "reverse" of gravity you could go change environment and have the GM choose how high the victims float. You could also build a special form of fly, usable on others, Instant, Vertical Only. I would say:

What Goes Up... - Telekinesis 30 (lift 1600KG (16 average people)), Affects Porous, AoE (Radius) (110 Active Points); Only to move object vertically (-1/2 or -3/4)

Season to taste. This (by move rules) would lift each person 24" each phase. Someone correct me if that is wrong.

Could be fun to lift a truck far out of site and drop it on someone unexpectedly. You could also pin people down with this attack.

[Sean Waters]

The problem with reverse gravity is that logically the mass of the target is irrelevant. TK gets pretty expensive to be able to lift anything that you might aim at. Also it makes no real sense that someone could break out with a STR v STR roll: you can't do that to normal gravity.

Consider UBO flight.

Flight 5", Usable As Attack (x65,536* maximum weight per inanimate target; +5) (60 Active Points)

I'm not sure what effect adding AoE to UAA has - it is possible it removes the mass resitriction, but I'm never clear when I read it - if so, it is almost perfect. The 'defence' is flight or gravity powers of your own.

In fact that doesn't do the acceleration due to gravity you need, so build a continuous succor power which adds +5" of UAA flight per phase. Then, of course, you need enough extra speed to have a phase every segment, at least for the gravity power purposes.

Expensive, yes, but horribly potent. If I have time later I might work up a complete power set.



*still not perfect, but that is a LOT of mass :)

[Hyper-Man]

Adding UAA and AOE to a power that is normally 'self only' gives the power a 'range' of the AOE centered on the power's owner.

50 Reverse Gravity: Flight 5", Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1), Area Of Effect (7" Radius; +1), Usable As Attack (x32 maximum weight per inanimate target; Defense = Flight; +2 1/4) (75 Active Points); Levitation (-1/2) - END=3

If building the effect with TK be sure to include the NND* Advantage (having a high STR should not keep this from affecting someone).

*Adding the Usable As Attack (UAA) Advantage to an otherwise 'Self Only' power requires a defense to be defined in the same manner as the NND Advantage.

[Killer Shrike]

UAA Flight is a very broken construct that causes game balance issues. I would advise against it unless it is strongly limited in some way. Every time I've allowed it I ended up regretting it.

[Killer Shrike]

Gravitic (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Gravitic.HTML) and his half-brother Massive (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/Villains/Massive.HTML) have a variety of gravity manipulation powers. You might be able to mine them for something.

[Doc Democracy]

Looking at what you have written here:


As a base i'm thinking, everything/everyone in a certain area falls upward a certain amount, then starts falling back down, and then would take fall damage like normal (if they couldn't avert it using the various ways to get around fall damage).

Then I might suggest you build it as an attack. You want to do damage to everything in the area, then do area effect damage - the lift up and slam down are SFX.

This kind of thing may come with inconsistencies if you intend to be able to use the anti-gravity to do more than area effect damage but if this is one of a number of anti-grav powers then it works pretty well and does not suffer from the TK etc drawbacks...


Doc

[Sean Waters]

Looking at what you have written here:



Then I might suggest you build it as an attack. You want to do damage to everything in the area, then do area effect damage - the lift up and slam down are SFX.

This kind of thing may come with inconsistencies if you intend to be able to use the anti-gravity to do more than area effect damage but if this is one of a number of anti-grav powers then it works pretty well and does not suffer from the TK etc drawbacks...


Doc

That's the ticket - sfx - all you are really after is causing damage with certain limitations. Good one.

[bigbywolfe]

Transform: Area with Gravity to Area with Reverse Gravity. Make it a lot of dice and add AoE.

[Sean Waters]

Transform: Area with Gravity to Area with Reverse Gravity. Make it a lot of dice and add AoE.

What do you use for the target BODY?

[bigbywolfe]

I was half joking. You know, how in every thread someone suggests Transform or Extra-dimensional Movement.

As far as what to use as the target BODY? Hmm. Gravity comes from the mass of the planet, so maybe the planet’s BODY or some portion thereof? I don’t know…

[Sean Waters]

I was half joking. You know, how in every thread someone suggests Transform or Extra-dimensional Movement.

As far as what to use as the target BODY? Hmm. Gravity comes from the mass of the planet, so maybe the planet’s BODY or some portion thereof? I don’t know…

It is usually my job, but I'm being unusually serious at present. EDM could work...I'm shocked no one has suggested 'Change Environment'.

[jtelson]

<Looks up from having typed C H A N G E space E> What?

[Sean Waters]

<Looks up from having typed C H A N G E space E> What?

:p

[Killer Shrike]

It is usually my job, but I'm being unusually serious at present. EDM could work...I'm shocked no one has suggested 'Change Environment'.

Actually, I have used CE with the TK STR option for gravity manipulation. It works, but its very expensive to get enough STR to be effective. It works well in fantasy / sci fi where characters have lower STR but its just not very efficient in supers IME.

Its definitely worth exploring though to see if it fills the bill for the OP's needs. :thumbup:

[Hyper-Man]

One issue with using any form of Telekinesis is that the *active cost is always going to reflect its default ability to 'squeeze' for damage. Sure you can apply Limitations to reduce the real cost but the active cost is still going to be higher than a Flight UAA approach. I agree it can become abusive if not heavily limited and assigned an appropriate 'NND-like' defense. The sfx of 'reverse gravity' presents some very appropriate Limitations (Levitation Only, not vs. anyone with flight).

* Which is always an important consideration if the ability is placed in a Multipower or VPP.

[Alibear]

Actually, I have used CE with the TK STR option for gravity manipulation. It works, but its very expensive to get enough STR to be effective. It works well in fantasy / sci fi where characters have lower STR but its just not very efficient in supers IME.

Its definitely worth exploring though to see if it fills the bill for the OP's needs. :thumbup:

NND is the way to go then.

[Killer Shrike]

One issue with using any form of Telekinesis is that the *active cost is always going to reflect its default ability to 'squeeze' for damage. Sure you can apply Limitations to reduce the real cost but the active cost is still going to be higher than a Flight UAA approach. I agree it can become abusive if not heavily limited and assigned an appropriate 'NND-like' defense. The sfx of 'reverse gravity' presents some very appropriate Limitations (Levitation Only, not vs. anyone with flight).

* Which is always an important consideration if the ability is placed in a Multipower or VPP.

One of the main problems w/ UAA Flight, particularly in regards to a Gravity based power, is that it completely circumvents STR. A high STR character cannot break out of it no matter how hard they try. Even if some kind of STR escape clause is included in the "reasonably common defense" you have to measure it; as soon as you measure it you are essentially abrogating TK. It can be worked around on a case by case basis, but the cost to effect ratio of Flight UAA is too efficient and its effect is too absolute for my liking.

[Hyper-Man]

One of the main problems w/ UAA Flight, particularly in regards to a Gravity based power, is that it completely circumvents STR. A high STR character cannot break out of it no matter how hard they try. Even if some kind of STR escape clause is included in the "reasonably common defense" you have to measure it; as soon as you measure it you are essentially abrogating TK. It can be worked around on a case by case basis, but the cost to effect ratio of Flight UAA is too efficient and its effect is too absolute for my liking.


Why should having a high STR be a defense to reversing gravity in an area?

Here's a couple of different ways to build the effect comparable to my earlier Flight UAA version using TK:

43 Reverse Gravity: Telekinesis (10 STR), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), No Normal Defense (Flight; +1), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (75 Active Points); Limited Power Levitation Only (-1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4) - END=7

51 Reverse Gravity - 90 Active Point alternative: Telekinesis (20 STR), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), No Normal Defense (Flight; +1/2), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1) (90 Active Points); Limited Power Levitation Only (-1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4) - END=4

Note that the real costs are comparable to Flight UAA but their effectiveness is squewed because of the neccessity of adding the NND and Affect Whole Object Modifiers (which are the default state of Flight UAA).

[Matt the Bruins]

I don't think any amount of STR in and of itself would be a defense against reversed gravity, but making a successful DEX roll to grab on to something anchored should work for anyone who's strong enough to support their own body weight from a bar or ledge without falling.

[Killer Shrike]

High STR would come in to play if a character grabbed on to something to resist being lifted off the ground. Has no effect vs Flight UAA. Clinging also.

[Hyper-Man]

High STR would come in to play if a character grabbed on to something to resist being lifted off the ground. Has no effect vs Flight UAA. Clinging also.

Are you referring to My TK NND example?
If so, the high STR would have no more or less effect than it would against my Flight UAA example. Because the TK is built with NND, the targeted character can't break the TK grab no matter what their personal STR is.

The defenses you suggest are special effect extrapolations of the same NND defense (applying UAA to a power requires a defense to be defined just like the NND Advantage) which would applicable to both builds. The use of Clinging or grabbing an object connected to the ground should have the same chance for success whether using the Flight UAA or TK NND since both in clear 'GM interpretation of sfx' territory.

[Doc Democracy]

High STR would come in to play if a character grabbed on to something to resist being lifted off the ground. Has no effect vs Flight UAA. Clinging also.

Each of these reflect the problems of build versus mechanics.

Simply reversing gravity should not require great amounts of strength - and it really only comes into play if there is indeed something to hold onto.

The mechanics do not reflect the actuality of reversing gravity but the better question is whether they reflect the drama required.

The worst mistake is to build it so that it obviously gives a stupid result - neither of the builds are obviously stupid but they may come across situations where the right mechanical action breaks the feeling of reality.


Doc