Technomancer

[shadowmage87]

I'm having problems with a particular of my new technomancer's powers. He needs to be able to telepathically trun electronics on and off, even/especially against the will of the operator. I originally built it using dispel, but that doesn't allow him to turn things on. Mind control barely fits the niche I've got it working in as it is, let alone turning the mind it's supposed to be controlling on and off. I also thought about change environment, only to turn electronics on and off, useable as attack, but I'm not sure how that would work...if that is even legal. Any ideas, input, or advice?

[Hyper-Man]

Mind Control - Machine Class of Minds is one method.

[bigbywolfe]

Some threads that deal with technomancers and cyberpathy in general:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73055&highlight=machine+control
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72188&highlight=machine
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71928&highlight=machine&page=2
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72956&highlight=machine
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70937&highlight=machine
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65790&highlight=machine
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61473&highlight=machine

[bigbywolfe]

Mind control barely fits the niche I've got it working in as it is, let alone turning the mind it's supposed to be controlling on and off.
I think you can Mind Control people to 'sleep' and such, so I'm not sure why 'turn off' would be any different...

[Clonus]

The all purpose recourse for powers that don't exist. Transform!

[Clonus]

I think you can Mind Control people to 'sleep' and such, so I'm not sure why 'turn off' would be any different...

Because house wiring doesn't have an EGO.

[jtelson]

Remember that we're reasoning from effect. The Special Effect is - I want to Activate or Deactivate Machines, but the Word Machines could be replaced with any effect, Magic Items, Fire Powers, Pheromone Effects... any power effect.

Sure Mind Control works on computers but it wouldn't work on Tyger-Tyger's Fire Damage Shield so why would it work on the Techminator's Magnetic Marble Damage Shield just because it's tech based?

Try a Variable Power Pool similar to the Mimic Pool, but Only to Deactivate (Drain/Dispel/Suppress) or Simulate Powers with Special Effect X. It would, unfortunately, have to be a large pool.

[Ms Superior]

HyperMan has one thing: control "mind" in basic. If turn on/off is all you want to do, that's all you need.

Control in detail is all you need, MC machine-class minds will do, too.

[jtelson]

HyperMan has one thing: control "mind" in basic. If turn on/off is all you want to do, that's all you need.

Control in detail is all you need, MC machine-class minds will do, too.

Are you saying use Mind Control on the Character controlling the powers? If so it's certainly a thought. "You Will Activate that power, and not remember doing so, and seem to others to spend this phase attempting to turn the power off" would certainly seem to cover the Effect.

Or are you suggesting that the Special Effect "Technology" is specifically weaker than any other Special Effect? In other words if I build 2 identical characters with Lesprit D'Machine defining his powers as Technological Gizmos and Thaum-ster defining his as Magical Gizmos. Lesprit's powers would be vulnerable to Mind Control and Thaun-ster's wouldn't be?

[Ms Superior]

Are you saying use Mind Control on the Character controlling the powers?

AARRRGHGHGHGH!

NO!

The Technomancer's power is Mind Control vs. Machine Minds!!

Just like HyperMan said.

Gevalt!

[jtelson]

AARRRGHGHGHGH!

NO!

The Technomancer's power is Mind Control vs. Machine Minds!!

Just like HyperMan said.

Gevalt!

Oy!

It's really not Mind Control vs. Machine minds for reasons previously stated but also because the individual powers have neither Ego nor Int which would be the targeted stats (5th Rev Page 117)

and as you say AARRRGHGHGHGH!

[Ms Superior]

Oy!

It's really not Mind Control vs. Machine minds for reasons previously stated but also because the individual powers have neither Ego nor Int which would be the targeted stats (5th Rev Page 117)

and as you say AARRRGHGHGHGH!

Boggle!!!!

NO no no no no no no no no no no.

The OP wanted a charie that could control electronics. Hyper-man pointed out Mind Control, machine class of mind.

I agreed.

I cannot begin to start to proceed to figure out what the blank you are talking about.

[bigbywolfe]

Ms Superior, you are in this case, not...superior that is. Read the OP again.

He needs to be able to telepathically turn electronics on and off, even/especially against the will of the operator.
Mental Control doesn't allow you to make a blender turn on or to turn off the lights without getting out of bed, because those things have no "mind" to control, just switches that stop or start the flow of power.

[jtelson]

Boggle!!!!

NO no no no no no no no no no no.

The OP wanted a charie that could control electronics. Hyper-man pointed out Mind Control, machine class of mind.

I agreed.

I cannot begin to start to proceed to figure out what the blank you are talking about.

To clarify as it is clear that you have not been able to start to proceed (really? 'start to proceed'?) to figure out what I'm talking about - "Machine Class of Minds" is not the Electronics/Machines Special Effect. They are two different beasts that happen to share a word in the descriptions.

[Beast]

try this combo of effects
1 system operations(all types)
2 N-ray vision (not vs flesh) lots of telescopic
3 5 str tk indirect(just in case)with fine manipulation to fiddle with what is in side(might want more str

if it was a computer or AI I would go with Transform(reprograming operating system to have a back door for you to give commands and locking everybody else out)
heals by reinstalling old operating system
4 Electronics and computer programing to complement

[jtelson]

try this combo of effects
1 system operations(all types)
2 N-ray vision (not vs flesh) lots of telescopic
3 5 str tk indirect(just in case)with fine manipulation to fiddle with what is in side(might want more str

In a game where equipment isn't purchased with points, maybe. This is another case of targeting the Special Effect rather than building the end effect you want. For things like this, I always try to look at a build from the point of view of "If I changed the target's Special Effect would the build still make sense?" So could I use this build to control someone's magic wand? Probably not... Someone's Mutant Genetics... ummm no


if it was a computer or AI I would go with Transform(reprograming operating system to have a back door for you to give commands and locking everybody else out)
heals by reinstalling old operating system
4 Electronics and computer programing to complement

Now, Comuters and AI's are something affected by Mental Powers targeting "Machine Class of Minds" again 5th Rev Page 117 which is probably worth reading.

[Utech]

I recommend Summon (Any Machine) Must Inhabit Locale, Slavishly Loyal.

Your Technomancer spots a machine and sets about taking control of it (the time it takes to Summon it and for the machine to "orient itself"). The machine then happily completes tasks for your Technomancer. Naturally, this is only tasks the machine can accomplish already (no flying toaster ovens).

You'll need to come to an agreement with your GM as to the point value of a few representative items so that you know your limits. Off the top of my head:
very simple electronic mechanism such as a wall light switch: 1 point
simple electronic mechanism such as a five-function blender: 2 points
electronic mechanism such as those found in a car: 5 points
more complex electronic mechanism such as a smart cell-phone: 10-15 points
quite complex electronic mechanisms such as computers: 20-25 points
special electronic mechanisms such as robots, computers built with character points, AIs, gadgeteer's gadgets, and power armor: point value of the device

[BNakagawa]

The fundamental problem with this power description (as it relates to its hero system implementation) is that it focuses on the grey area between special effect and mechanical definition.

In general, the hero system states that a power's effect should be proportional to its cost. The problem with this power is that it does not differentiate between turning on a light switch and triggering a nuke.

It also does not differentiate between turning off a light switch and turning off someone's force field belt. One is an environmental element that may or may not be controlled, owned or paid for by anyone present. The other is almost certainly controlled, owned and paid for by its user.

Mechanically, there ought to be a considerable difference between activating or controlling a neutral and unattended machine and taking control of somebody's powers that they paid for that just happens to be a mechanical device.

Should it cost more to turn off an iPod that might cost 1 point as opposed to a force field belt that might cost 30?

Taken to its extremity, there is no reason such a character could not disable somebody's pace maker, essentially murdering them. A pacemaker, modeled in the hero system has almost no perceptible effect, other than keeping someone alive who otherwise might not live because of a defective heart. The active point cost for such a device might be as many as 5 points, probably less. It's hard to figure out how to model such a thing, but suffice to say, it shouldn't be expensive. However, there is a considerable disconnect between the active point value of a device and its impact on the life of its user.

[Ice9]

There are a number of aspects to machine control, and a number of ways to model those aspects:

Controlling normal devices, within their normal functions:
Telekinesis (limited) - to activate switches and controls
Mind Control (machine-class) - to control AI systems. Might be able to control non-AI computers, at DM's option.
Detect Binary Data, Ranged, Rapid x1000+, Transmit, plus hacking skills - to control non-AI computer systems. Might also be able to mess with AIs.

Controlling normal devices, outside their normal functions (making a stapler jump around attacking people, for instance):
Summon, limited to existing objects

Deactivating owned devices (as in, other people's powers):
Dispel, Suppress, Drain, or Transform, depending on duration.

Activating/Controlling owned devices:
Naked Limitation (No Concious Control), Usable as Attack - A somewhat dubious construct, but if the DM allows it, it should cover things nicely.
VPP (only to mimic activating devices) - Works, but expensive.
Mind Control, to make someone activate their own device and think that you did it.
Transform (person with devices to person with devices which are controlled by technomancer). The most brute-force solution, but it does work - if you can get enough effect.


Note that while this is a lot of powers, it doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive. A VPP covers most of these, and gives you the "device-activating VPP" to boot. A Summon could do it quite easily, and probably with plenty of points to spare. And if you don't mind your powers taking a few phases, Transform or two would cover most (all?) of these.

[BNakagawa]

The problem with using a summon to replicate the power of an existing device is that it does nothing to the original device.

At least some of the value of taking control of an existing device is to deny the use of that device to anyone else.

If there is an uber-gun in the hand of an opponent that has a magic bullet that will destroy some plot device/kill the important NPC/destroy the world/end the campaign/whatever and you summon a copy of it, it does nothing to keep the villain from doing something awful with the original device.

[Utech]

The problem with using a summon to replicate the power of an existing device is that it does nothing to the original device.

At least some of the value of taking control of an existing device is to deny the use of that device to anyone else.

If there is an uber-gun in the hand of an opponent that has a magic bullet that will destroy some plot device/kill the important NPC/destroy the world/end the campaign/whatever and you summon a copy of it, it does nothing to keep the villain from doing something awful with the original device.
Summon is often used not to summon a copy of something present (often an animal), but to gain control of the actual thing present. Of course if the villain is holding an uber-gun, your first command to that uber-gun had better be one that prevents the villain from firing the gun!

[jtelson]

Summon is often used not to summon a copy of something present (often an animal), but to gain control of the actual thing present. Of course if the villain is holding an uber-gun, your first command to that uber-gun had better be one that prevents the villain from firing the gun!

That's not how I interpreted that limitation, I thought it was a 'I can't summon polar bears in the desert' rather than a 'those polar bears guarding the Fortress of Solitude are now under my control' sort of thing

[BNakagawa]

Summon is often used not to summon a copy of something present (often an animal), but to gain control of the actual thing present. Of course if the villain is holding an uber-gun, your first command to that uber-gun had better be one that prevents the villain from firing the gun!

I don't think summon works that way. YMMV.

[Tachyon]

I think that Summon with 'Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale' could work.

Takofanes (Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, page 31) has a power built as Summon with this limitation with a note that the spell requires appropriate number and type of corpses in the vicinity.

[jtelson]

I think that Summon with 'Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale' could work.

Takofanes (Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, page 31) has a power built as Summon with this limitation with a note that the spell requires appropriate number and type of corpses in the vicinity.

Then the question becomes can summon deny other characters things upon which they have spent points? If Corpus Delecti has spent points on his 'Show of Hands' power whose special effect is dozens of Corpses rise out of the ground and clap drowning out all other sound (Darkness Sound Sense Group) can someone else use summon to make it stop?

[BNakagawa]

There is a line in the power description of summon that explicitly states that characters may not use summon to substitute for another power.

[Ice9]

Summon to control objects works well enough for "un-owned" objects - computers in a lab, for instance, but not other people's focuses. To nitpick, you could link it to UaA EDM to get rid of the originals while your copies existed. To take over other people's powers, you need a Transform or a Summon/Suppress combination.

What I meant by "Summon could do it", is that you could summon something like an "electronic animus", which could do the Suppress itself while duplicating the suppressed device's function under your control.

[Lairian]

Perhaps an EC or the like with slots to represent different mechanical abilities in the concept? A TK (only to restrain Foci) legitimately can disable things others paid points for by leveraging their Limitations, for instance. As noted above, Summon may work (if hammered out ahead of time with your GM) to take control of non-owned technology. Turning off may be trickier, as it may have to be represented by a host of Suppresses.

[Utech]

There is a line in the power description of summon that explicitly states that characters may not use summon to substitute for another power.
I'll grant you that Summon shouldn't be used to control machines that have INT or EGO. The notes for Classes of Minds under Mental Powers 5ER p 117 make it clear how to handle that with Mind Control.

Many machines, however, do not have INT or EGO. The GM could certainly assign a machine INT or EGO just for the purpose of working out how Mind Control (or Mental Illusions or Mind Scan or Telepathy or Ego Attack) works. But I think Summon handles this pretty darn well.

If you dislike Summon being used to gain control of uber-guns and power armor, just put an upper limit on the number of points someone can sink into Summon. Enough to control light switches and blenders and MP3 players but not enough for uber-guns and power armor.

[Tachyon]

Then the question becomes can summon deny other characters things upon which they have spent points? If Corpus Delecti has spent points on his 'Show of Hands' power whose special effect is dozens of Corpses rise out of the ground and clap drowning out all other sound (Darkness Sound Sense Group) can someone else use summon to make it stop?
No, he would have to deactivate it first (with Suppress or Dispel, for example). The special effect would be that he is slowly taking control of the power/machine, denying the user (Corpus Delecti in this case) access and then controlling it himself.

[shadowmage87]

Well, prior to any input, I had mind control (machine class minds), was debating between dispel and suppress for turning things off, telepathy for machine class minds, and the ability to perceive/transmit and extinguish (flash) radio waves.

The problem being that mind control works for minds, and a computer, with few exceptions, is not a mind...it's what happens when you buy lightning calculator with the "subject to EMP" limitation. The question is, how does what amounts to a group of powers have EGO? I can't really justify the approach if I can't justify the defense.

I'm the GM, and this is an NPC the PCs will encounter occasionally, so I need to know how he works...I'm thinking of just setting up EGO values that seem appropriate for a similarly powerful character...but that makes most computers a breeze to hack, which makes sense I guess. It's the nuclear test sites that should be hard to hack, not the home PCs.

[bigbywolfe]

Do you have 5ER? It specifically talks about how to use Mental Powers versus Machine Class Mind on Computers/Robots/Et cetra, that don't have Ego but do have INT. So Computers really shouldn't be an issue, it's all there in the book. The big issue is things without even INT, such as a blender. That's when Mechanics get sketchy.

[director13]

I've heard Telekinesis mentioned multiple times, and not a lot of discussion of why that wouldn't work (with appropriate limitations... Only electrically powered devices, state changes only / no movement other than what is actuated on the device, etc.)

I think it also addresses the "would this work on magic SFX" question that's come up as well. Yes?

That would be my primary solution. The second being appropriately limited Supress.

[jtelson]

I've heard Telekinesis mentioned multiple times, and not a lot of discussion of why that wouldn't work (with appropriate limitations... Only electrically powered devices, state changes only / no movement other than what is actuated on the device, etc.)

I think it also addresses the "would this work on magic SFX" question that's come up as well. Yes?

That would be my primary solution. The second being appropriately limited Supress.

TK works fine for a blender or microwave, anything that's part of the "Environment", that could normally be interacted with and actuated normally rather than things that are part of another character.

But if I want the ability to 'Make Ed's Energy Blast Go Off' then we need to be able to build that mechanically divorced from special effect and it's complicated to do. I need to be able to mirror Ed's Blast, reduce Ed's Endurance or Charges and perhaps disallow Ed access to Ed's Energy Blast. Then I need to be able to do that with any power that Ed has.

Amusingly, Mind Control does a good job with this, but only if you're controlling Ed. You can use Mind Control with the Special Effect, not controlling Ed's Mind but Ed's Powers which still targets Ed's Ego as normal and costs Ed actions so it's an imperfect model.

Alternatively, as I've said earlier, you're looking at a pretty hefty Variable Pool that's similar to the idea behind a Mimic pool.