Shape Shift into Water: Clever or Cheesy?

[DocSamson]

I'm looking over some potential characters for an upcoming game. An upfront but clever player comes to me with this build from an old character:

Shape Shift [Sight and Touch Groups], Single Shape [Water]

He points out the following passages to me with a question for each:

#1 "A character with Shape Shift can change his form as perceived by one or more Sense Groups without altering his powers or other abilities." (5ER, pg. 216)

Question: If the character jumps into a body of water, is he effectively invisible to the sight group?

Clever/ Cheesy: Is this a clever use of the power or an attempt to get Invisibility, Only in Water for free?

#2 "alter his actual physical shape or mass distribution (though his total mass would not change), thus allowing him to, for example, slip out of bonds, radically alter his form, or within reason to fit through openings a human-shaped being cannot fit through (the classic meaning of “shifting shape”)" (5ER, pg. 216)

Question: Does this allow him to slip out of holds and flow under doors?

Clever/ Cheesy: Is this clever or just a cheap way to get Desolidification, Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects, Does Not Protect Against Damage for free?

All thoughts, opinions, and rants are welcome. Thanks in advance for replies.

[ghost-angel]

1) Shape Shift has long been a vialbe "Camouflage" Power. I would require a Perception Roll to notice a character that appears to be water that is hanging around underwater.

Provided they aren't doing something to bring attention to themselves, like activating other Perceivable Powers.

2) No, that's exactly what SS: Touch groups does - change your form to slip through barriers, out of bonds, etc within reason. Says so in the text.

[Alibear]

I'd prefer if he bought invisibility, only in water (-1) personally, if that was the effect he was looking for.

[ghost-angel]

forgot to add - I would not give them straight up Inivisibility for that. Just really good situational modifers to notice them.

[DocSamson]

It's an interesting discussion. If the power was Shapeshifting into a tree and the character was in a forest, would you:

1. Determine that opponents cannot tell the character from the other trees without using some other sense (similar to invisibility)?
2. Allow opponents a PER roll to determine if one of the trees was a character (similar to stealth)?
3. Allow all opponents to see that there is a character in the shape of a tree present because he did not buy invisibility (no effect on PER)?

[edit] Another example; If the character was a human mage who shapeshifted into an Orc, would you:
1. Determine that Orcs cannot tell the character is human without using some other sense (similar to multiform)?
2. Automatically give all Orcs a PER roll to determine if the character is human (similar to disguise)?
3. Allow all Orcs to see that there is a human in the shape of an Orc present because he did not buy multiform (no effect on PER)?

[ghost-angel]

They would still see a tree, so you're not really "invisible"

hiding in water does present a tricky situation regarding hiding in it, since they can literally hide inside the water. It's not really "invisible" so much as using the appropriate environment to their benefit. Once they start doing something, anything, to bring attention to themselves all bets are off.

Until then, they look like water. A casual glance won't reveal them. They haven't gotten any kind of invisibility, just some really good camouflage. There is a major difference.

I suggest the GM uses Common Sense to arbitrate the issue.

[DocMan]

If you shape shift into water and hide in a lake, do you have to have Life Support?

Doc

[archermoo]

If you shape shift into water and hide in a lake, do you have to have Life Support?

Doc

I don't recall anything about Shapeshift that automatically includes any LS, so yup. Unless you're hiding at the surface.

[Kenn]

It's an interesting discussion. If the power was Shapeshifting into a tree and the character was in a forest, would you:

1. Determine that opponents cannot tell the character from the other trees without using some other sense (similar to invisibility)?
2. Allow opponents a PER roll to determine if one of the trees was a character (similar to stealth)?
3. Allow all opponents to see that there is a character in the shape of a tree present because he did not buy invisibility (no effect on PER)?


Would one get the ability to conceal the forest from everyone else's sight? Not being able to see the forest for the trees, and all that.

Actually, I'd allow people to notice that the tree moved unless the character made a series of DEX checks. Unless the character was in Oz and had the ability to throw his own fruit...

...And if the Wizard grants our wishes,
we could be Golden Delicious...
If we only had good fruit...

[Sean Waters]

INVISIBILITY IN WATER

Shapeshift allows you to change what you look like - perfectly. Whilst it does not confer invisibility, it may be the equivalent in the circumstances you describe. A GM could legitimately rule that, whilst acting like water it is impossible to tell the character from the water he is in (assuming it is at least enough volume to cover him) but if he does anything else - moves, attacks, etc - others can make PER roll (possiobly at a penalty) to spot him.

Bear in mind as well that not all water is the same: if he turns into clear, fresh water, he will still be visible (although hard to see) in many lakes and costal waters.

I would give an opponent a PER roll, with modifiers based on what the character is doing and what the ambient conditions are. Success means that he can be attacked normally. Failure means that he is unseen, effectively invisible.

Example: Character is hiding in a slightly muddy river, and attacks someone swimming across. The character normally turns into clear water (NB if you have multiple forms you can turn into multiple type of water).

PER roll at -4 (character is fully submerged in water)
Contrast beween muddy and clear water: +1
Character is moving violently (attacking): +2

Final roll = PER-1

I know this is ad hoc, but you need to get some value from this power. Invisibility to sight costs twice what shapeshift does, so this put sit on an activation roll when in certain circumstances: sounds about right. Alternatively consider requiring a limited form of invisibility instead - reasoning from effect that seems to be the point of this one: not being seen, rather than being seen as something else.

SLIPPING UNDER DOORS

No, in short. You can slip out of bonds, probably get a bonus for escaping entangles or grabs, move through narrow pipes - but slipping under a door is probably too much, IMO, and trespasses into the realm of desolid.

It is a case by case thing though: you might let someone squeeze through a gap of a few cm under a door, but not flow through a keyhole.

Even in this state you are still completely vulnerable to attacks.

[nexus]

My initial instinct is Cheeze. If the primary effect the player is looking for is to be (nearly) undetectable in a specific situation and avoid constraints it seems like limited but dependable invisibility and desol* is what they're looking for and this is an attempt to lump two other Powers under another to save points. Its a bad precedent, IMO for things like "Shapeshift: One form: Transparent or Shapeshift One form: Rubber or some other substance or material and getting "free" effects from it.

*As an alternative linked skills/skills bonuses for Contortionist, Stealth, Concealment might reasonable and I'd possible give some situational bonus but it would be very specific. He'd be able to conceal himself in still water much easier than moving water, for example.

[DocSamson]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I am inclined to allow the build based on the above feedback (and the fact that this is actually a returning character from the distant past). After doing some research on the issue, I found this in the FAQ:

Can characters make PER Rolls to “perceive through” Shape Shift, or determine that a person is Shape Shifted?

No. The standard rules for Shape Shift don’t provide any PER Roll to “see through” the alteration in form. It has to be detected in other ways, such as a PER Roll using a Sense the Shape Shift doesn’t affect (“He looks like Bob... but he sure doesn’t sound like him”). A character could Limit his Shape Shift so that observers get a PER Roll to “see through” his change in form, if desired.

The PER Roll for Shape Shift with a Required Skill Roll is going to depend on the extent to which the GM allows Skill Versus Skill Rolls with RSR powers. See 5E 199.

The PER Roll modifier discussed for Imitation is an optional thing the GM can allow if he wants, but all it does is tell the onlooker (who by definition has to know what the person being imitated “looks” like) that something’s not quite right. It doesn’t reveal the character’s true appearance or anything like that.

Based on the above and your feedback, I think I am going tp tell the player the following:
1. If you are simply in water, other characters will not get a roll to detect you with the effected senses (Sight and Touch), however, if you do anything water cannot normally do (like punching someone in the face) they will be able to detect you. If you would like to remain undetectable while attacking, you will need Stealth or Invisibility.
2. You will be able to escape holds and slip under doors but will not be able to pass through anything that water could not (like a sponge!). To do so, you will need Desolidifcation.
Does this seem reasonable?

[nexus]

Well, looking at the situation cost wise

Water Form A

13 Water Form: Shape Shift (Sight and Touch Groups) 1end per phase

Water Form B

16 Desolidification (40 Active Points); Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

8 Invisibility to Sight Group (20 Active Points); Chameleon (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only in water; -1/2), Linked (Desolidification; -1/2)

Total 6 Endurance per turn.


The Shapeshift method is definitely the better deal (even more so if the Gm won't waive that rule that requires "Affects Real World" on attack for Method B. You could put the first two powers in an EC that might reduce the cost a little.

[archermoo]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I am inclined to allow the build based on the above feedback (and the fact that this is actually a returning character from the distant past). After doing some research on the issue, I found this in the FAQ:

Can characters make PER Rolls to “perceive through” Shape Shift, or determine that a person is Shape Shifted?

No. The standard rules for Shape Shift don’t provide any PER Roll to “see through” the alteration in form. It has to be detected in other ways, such as a PER Roll using a Sense the Shape Shift doesn’t affect (“He looks like Bob... but he sure doesn’t sound like him”). A character could Limit his Shape Shift so that observers get a PER Roll to “see through” his change in form, if desired.

The PER Roll for Shape Shift with a Required Skill Roll is going to depend on the extent to which the GM allows Skill Versus Skill Rolls with RSR powers. See 5E 199.

The PER Roll modifier discussed for Imitation is an optional thing the GM can allow if he wants, but all it does is tell the onlooker (who by definition has to know what the person being imitated “looks” like) that something’s not quite right. It doesn’t reveal the character’s true appearance or anything like that.

Based on the above and your feedback, I think I am going tp tell the player the following:
1. If you are simply in water, other characters will not get a roll to detect you with the effected senses (Sight and Touch), however, if you do anything water cannot normally do (like punching someone in the face) they will be able to detect you. If you would like to remain undetectable while attacking, you will need Stealth or Invisibility.
2. You will be able to escape holds and slip under doors but will not be able to pass through anything that water could not (like a sponge!). To do so, you will need Desolidifcation.
Does this seem reasonable?

I'll note that there is a difference between using a PER roll to see through the Shapeshift and using a PER roll to find something that is concealed. The FAQ ruling covers the first but not the second. They wouldn't be able to use a PER roll to tell that that patch of water was really Bob, but they should be able to use a PER roll to tell that that patch of water isn't exactly the same as the rest of the water.

[DocSamson]

Well, looking at the situation cost wise

Water Form A

13 Water Form: Shape Shift (Sight and Touch Groups) 1end per phase

Water Form B

16 Desolidification (40 Active Points); Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

8 Invisibility to Sight Group (20 Active Points); Chameleon (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only in water; -1/2), Linked (Desolidification; -1/2)

Total 6 Endurance per turn.


The Shapeshift method is definitely the better deal (even more so if the Gm won't waive that rule that requires "Affects Real World" on attack for Method B. You could put the first two powers in an EC that might reduce the cost a little.
This is a good comparison but please note that the cost of Desolidifcation includes the inability to be detected by Sonar, Radar, and Scent (147) and Only Works in Water is a -1 1/2 limitation (299). The costs are still skewed but not too terribly I think. There is also, as you pointed out previously, the Affects Physical World issue. I would have to wave this rule for the character to be able to touch things while in water form, which I'm not sure I am comfortable with (essentially granting him a free +2 Advantage on STR and all attacks).

I'll note that there is a difference between using a PER roll to see through the Shapeshift and using a PER roll to find something that is concealed. The FAQ ruling covers the first but not the second. They wouldn't be able to use a PER roll to tell that that patch of water was really Bob, but they should be able to use a PER roll to tell that that patch of water isn't exactly the same as the rest of the water.
Hmm...would you say that Imitation might be necessary to make the character indistinguishable from the water around him? This would keep me from having to rule on whether any water the character encounters resembles the water he can turn into enough for the character to hide in it.

[CourtFool]

I find it interesting he would not smell like water.

[DocSamson]

I find it interesting he would not smell like water.
That is another thing I'm not fond of as a GM. Invisibility to Sight plus Desolidification makes a character undetectable to most senses (Sight, Touch, Sonar, Radar, Smell, and probably Hearing if the character does not speak as he cannot actually touch anything). That pretty much leaves you with Mental and Unusual (depending on their SFX) senses.

[ghost-angel]

Well, looking at the situation cost wise

Water Form A

13 Water Form: Shape Shift (Sight and Touch Groups) 1end per phase

Water Form B

16 Desolidification (40 Active Points); Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

8 Invisibility to Sight Group (20 Active Points); Chameleon (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only in water; -1/2), Linked (Desolidification; -1/2)

Total 6 Endurance per turn.


The Shapeshift method is definitely the better deal (even more so if the Gm won't waive that rule that requires "Affects Real World" on attack for Method B. You could put the first two powers in an EC that might reduce the cost a little.

This is all well and good - but it makes the assumption that these are the primary desires of the Characters build, and not just some useful benefits of clever use of another Power.

Shapshift provides a whole different suite of capabilities - and as has been pointed out has several different possibly undersireable mechanical aspects.

[nexus]

This is a good comparison but please note that the cost of Desolidifcation includes the inability to be detected by Sonar, Radar, and Scent (147) and Only Works in Water is a -1 1/2 limitation (299).


Actually I was assuming the "Does not move through solid object negates the sensory bonus (which are a another "freebie" assumed special effect thing IMO).

Only works in Water is almost equal to one charge, never recovers or No Conscious Control? Didn't know that was some official ruling but not in any campaign I'll run unless its taking place somewhere like Dune. I can see an argument where it might be higher than -1/2 but not quite that high.

[nexus]

This is all well and good - but it makes the assumption that these are the primary desires of the Characters build, and not just some useful benefits of clever use of another Power.

Shapshift provides a whole different suite of capabilities - and as has been pointed out has several different possibly undersireable mechanical aspects.

Those were the effects the OP asked about so I assume they are the main benefits the player wants: impossible/extremely difficult to detect in water and the ability to "flow" like water. I admit to have difficulty thinking what other major benefits he would want from Shapeshift: One form: Water (which to be pedantic isn't a "form" its a substance and seems to precedent like Shapeshift: One form: uranium or granite and expecting to freebies for it)

Even the flowing like water ability is somewhat questionable since the character can only later their size and mass by +/- 10 percent so doing things like flowing under doors and down regular sized pipes, etc seems questionable.

[Manic Typist]

Remember, he is one continuous body. So, even when he moves through or over water in his water form, he could be spotted... especially if he's going against the current or in a still body. It wouldn't be easy, mind you...


And any creatures who use their noses to hunt would suffer no penalty to smell him, except for other circumstantial factors like the wind..

[nexus]

Well running with more official numbers

Method A

13 Water Form: Shape Shift (Sight and Touch Groups)

Method B

16 Water Form 1: Desolidification , Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Does not provide immuntanity to sonar, smell, etc; +0) (40 Active Points); Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2)

6 Water Form 2: Invisibility to Sight Group (20 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only in Water; -1 1/2), Chameleon (-1/2), Linked (Water Form; -1/4)

An EC actually made it slightly more expensive. (25 points total). I guess it comes down what the GM feels most accurately reflect the mechanical effects the power would have and what price seems fair for the utility of those effects.

[nexus]

It's an interesting discussion. If the power was Shapeshifting into a tree and the character was in a forest, would you:

1. Determine that opponents cannot tell the character from the other trees without using some other sense (similar to invisibility)?
2. Allow opponents a PER roll to determine if one of the trees was a character (similar to stealth)?
3. Allow all opponents to see that there is a character in the shape of a tree present because he did not buy invisibility (no effect on PER)?


In any case, he'd be a really short tree ;)

[SteveZilla]

Remember, he is one continuous body. So, even when he moves through or over water in his water form, he could be spotted... especially if he's going against the current or in a still body. It wouldn't be easy, mind you...

Exactly. IMO the Shape Shift build would create ripples and a wake. Stealth/Concealment would IMO not be much use because he's not just moving on a surface, he's moving *though* the substance that has a surface. The Immitation adder would let him mimic the ripples & waves, making them appear contiguous across his body, but would not prevent him from disturbing the water as he moves.

Retoric question: If he gets significant benefits from doing the Shape Shift: Water and then diving into a large body of water, could I get the same benefits when I Shape Shift: Air? :ugly:

[mayapuppies]

If shape shifting into water, wouldn't he still retain his body temperature?

I don't know too may bodies of water that are that warm.

[DocSamson]

Retoric question: If he gets significant benefits from doing the Shape Shift: Water and then diving into a large body of water, could I get the same benefits when I Shape Shift: Air? :ugly:
That's a good question. I don't think I would allow allow it to have quite the same benefits as (and this may be a stretch) I think that characters will more often encounter air than large bodies of water in most non-underwater games.

This is the only reference I was able to find in a game book to support my opinion:
To fit through very small openings, characters should typically buy a Limited form of Desolidification — Shape Shift can’t spread a character’s mass out to the thinness of vapor, for example.) (UM, pg. 48, example #3)

[DocSamson]

If shape shifting into water, wouldn't he still retain his body temperature?

I don't know too may bodies of water that are that warm.
I don't think so, it is something I would ask the player if it ever came up. If you were using IR vision to see heat, the shapeshift effects the Sight group. If you were using your hand, it is also bought against touch.

[nexus]

An idea struck me for a Method C

Purchase the shapeshift and get levels with Stealth and Concealment that only work in water and a high Contortionist skill that are tied to the shapeshift. That was get about what the player seems to want. Alternately they could get a high Power Skill with Shapeshift and use it as complimentary to those skills.

[archermoo]

Hmm...would you say that Imitation might be necessary to make the character indistinguishable from the water around him? This would keep me from having to rule on whether any water the character encounters resembles the water he can turn into enough for the character to hide in it.

That might be one way of doing it. But even with that I'd still say that it would just give a bonus to his concealment.

If the player wants the effects of Invisibility, he needs to buy Invisibility.

[Vondy]

An idea struck me for a Method C

Purchase the shapeshift and get levels with Stealth and Concealment that only work in water and a high Contortionist skill that are tied to the shapeshift. That was get about what the player seems to want. Alternately they could get a high Power Skill with Shapeshift and use it as complimentary to those skills.

I'm intended to suggest the character purchase an EC: shapeshift, invisibility, and maybe desolification or damage control. However, your method is both viable and elegant. And probably cheaper.

[bigbywolfe]

What is "damage control"?

[Vondy]

What is "damage control"?

Sorry. I was having a conversation and typing a post all at one time. I meant, Damage Reduction.

[DocSamson]

Sorry. I was having a conversation and typing a post all at one time. I meant, Damage Reduction.
Now that's Damage Control. :thumbup:

[SteveZilla]

Sorry. I was having a conversation and typing a post all at one time. I meant, Damage Reduction.

Sure it wasn't a slip about this comic book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_Control_(comics))? :D

[DocMan]

I keep looking at this thread and thinking, "Ok. You have a man standing there, and then he shape-shifts into water, and you have a man-shaped column of water standing there in defiance of gravity. Then it jumps into the lake. While it is submerged, it is hard to find, but when it comes to the surface, you can clearly see the "head" poking up out of the rest of the lake."

Doc

[pinecone]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I am inclined to allow the build based on the above feedback (and the fact that this is actually a returning character from the distant past). After doing some research on the issue, I found this in the FAQ:

Can characters make PER Rolls to “perceive through” Shape Shift, or determine that a person is Shape Shifted?

No. The standard rules for Shape Shift don’t provide any PER Roll to “see through” the alteration in form. It has to be detected in other ways, such as a PER Roll using a Sense the Shape Shift doesn’t affect (“He looks like Bob... but he sure doesn’t sound like him”). A character could Limit his Shape Shift so that observers get a PER Roll to “see through” his change in form, if desired.

The PER Roll for Shape Shift with a Required Skill Roll is going to depend on the extent to which the GM allows Skill Versus Skill Rolls with RSR powers. See 5E 199.

The PER Roll modifier discussed for Imitation is an optional thing the GM can allow if he wants, but all it does is tell the onlooker (who by definition has to know what the person being imitated “looks” like) that something’s not quite right. It doesn’t reveal the character’s true appearance or anything like that.

Based on the above and your feedback, I think I am going tp tell the player the following:
1. If you are simply in water, other characters will not get a roll to detect you with the effected senses (Sight and Touch), however, if you do anything water cannot normally do (like punching someone in the face) they will be able to detect you. If you would like to remain undetectable while attacking, you will need Stealth or Invisibility.
2. You will be able to escape holds and slip under doors but will not be able to pass through anything that water could not (like a sponge!). To do so, you will need Desolidifcation.
Does this seem reasonable?

Sounds reasonable to me...

[ideasmith]

If you shape shift into water and hide in a lake, do you have to have Life Support?

Doc

That depends:

Do you mind drowning?

Do you plan to stay in the water long enough for drowning to become an issue?

[SteveZilla]

I keep looking at this thread and thinking, "Ok. You have a man standing there, and then he shape-shifts into water, and you have a man-shaped column of water standing there in defiance of gravity. Then it jumps into the lake. While it is submerged, it is hard to find, but when it comes to the surface, you can clearly see the "head" poking up out of the rest of the lake."

That's only an issue if he didn't take the Touch Sense Group as well. If he did, then he can change his shape so that he matches the water surface around him.