6e Total Points - Complications

[JohnTaber]

Hi Dan: You probably already answered this but I can't find it anywhere.

If I am reading 6e correctly there are Total Points (TP) and Max Complications (MC). If the TP = 300 and the MC = 60 then you should be able to spend 240 before hitting overage (i.e. red text and all). Currently it appears that if I enter 300 and 60 in HD3 I go to 300 before overage.

Is this a bug or intentional?

Thanks.

[rjcurrie]

Hi Dan: You probably already answered this but I can't find it anywhere.

If I am reading 6e correctly there are Total Points (TP) and Max Complications (MC). If the TP = 300 and the MC = 60 then you should be able to spend 240 before hitting overage (i.e. red text and all). Currently it appears that if I enter 300 and 60 in HD3 I go to 300 before overage.

Is this a bug or intentional?

Thanks.

If you're referring to the Basic Info tab, you'll notice that it is Base Points and Max Compilcation Points, which is the same as the old 5e method of expressing point totals. In other words, Base Points is the number of Points before Complications. So, for 6e characters with 300 Total Points and a maximum of 60 Points in Matching Complications, you would enter Base Points of 240 (300-60) and Max. Complication Points of 60.

[JohnTaber]

I kinda wish it worked the new way to get folks talking the same 6e lingo... :(

[Simon]

Yeah...I'm still debating on that.

On the one hand, the way it works now makes things simpler during the transition period from 5E to 6E.

On the other hand, it is (as noticed) a bit different from how things are expressed in the books and causes some confusion when figuring out certain abilities (Vehicles, Bases, Followers, etc.).

I'll likely modify it to match the book for 6E characters in the not-too-distant future....just need to finish convincing myself.

[JohnTaber]

Yeah...I'm still debating on that.

On the one hand, the way it works now makes things simpler during the transition period from 5E to 6E.

On the other hand, it is (as noticed) a bit different from how things are expressed in the books and causes some confusion when figuring out certain abilities (Vehicles, Bases, Followers, etc.).

I'll likely modify it to match the book for 6E characters in the not-too-distant future....just need to finish convincing myself.

Hi Dan: Thanks for considering this change. It is not a big deal in my mind but I wanted you to know my take. Thanks. :)

[BobGreenwade]

On the other hand, it is (as noticed) a bit different from how things are expressed in the books and causes some confusion when figuring out certain abilities (Vehicles, Bases, Followers, etc.).Yep -- to the point of making Associated Files pretty much useless, if not counterproductive. :(
I'll likely modify it to match the book for 6E characters in the not-too-distant future....just need to finish convincing myself.Would a few of these help?:

:hail::hail::hail:

[Derek Hiemforth]

Yeah, I agree with John. I really think it should match the look & feel of the book. New players would be confused if it didn't, and it might throw even long-time players for a loop short-term, if they were expecting it to use the 6E method...

[archermoo]

Yeah...I'm still debating on that.

On the one hand, the way it works now makes things simpler during the transition period from 5E to 6E.

On the other hand, it is (as noticed) a bit different from how things are expressed in the books and causes some confusion when figuring out certain abilities (Vehicles, Bases, Followers, etc.).

I'll likely modify it to match the book for 6E characters in the not-too-distant future....just need to finish convincing myself.

How 'bout this: I'll buy you a Guinness next time I see you if you make the change. Does that help convince you? ;)

I agree that it will likely be confusing to people if it isn't done the way points are presented in 6e. I know that Steve made the change from Base + Disads to Total with Matching Complications on purpose, to help fuel an attitude shift, so I think it would help drive that if HD followed that change. :)

[Slowloader]

To throw in my own 2 cents, I jumped into character creation once I got the PDFs, and since the language hadn't changed, I didn't read the points section in the book as carefully as I could have, so I've been designing on 400 + 75, instead of 325 + 75. So I would argue to make a change, just so it's obvious. Also, having the point amounts match the template being loaded would be nice. In fact, if that happened, it would make the first point moot.

[BobGreenwade]

Interesting thing... the description on the update seems to indicate that this change was made, but the behavior of the program remains the same on this point, on both new and old characters.

(The Darkness bug did get fixed, with my thanks; that's how I know I updated it correctly.)

[Simon]

The change was made -- Complications do not add to the total points (which goes along with the "Matching Complications" phrasing).

You have the total points in the character (previously Base Points). That's it as far as calculations go for Vehicles, Bases, Followers, etc.

[BobGreenwade]

I've been working with the program, trying to get it to behave as you say it should, and all I'm seeing is a cosmetic change in names.

The way I understand the rulebook, a character's overall total should be Points - allowed Matching Complications + actual Complications total + Experience Spent. When I build a character (build 20091001) it's Points + Matching Complications + Experience Spent (which is essentially the same as the old Base Points + Disadvantages + Experience Spent).

Also, Followers still reads "Base Points," and uses the "Total" points rather than (as I understand the cost is based off) the Total Points Spent.

On a (somewhat) separate issue, Followers lists only "Followers," and not the number of them or how many points each is worth. I think the WG (for 5th Ed, even) calls for those two fields and a name (such as "250 100-point agents").

[Simon]

You're misunderstanding.

Complications do not factor into the total points. That's the purpose behind the phrase "Matching Complications."

That's how HD handles things now -- you define the points that the character is based off of, and you define the Matching Complications that the character should take on. That's it. Vehicles, Followers, Bases, etc. all operate off of the same concept.

If you have other issues, you may want to start a separate thread or start a report in the Project Tools forum.

[Chris Goodwin]

Total points do include Complications. The Total Points value assumes you take the maximum allowed Matching Complications; for every point less in Complications you take, you get one less total point.

400 Total Points with 75 Matching Complications = 325 Base Points + 75 in Complications. 175 total points with 50 Matching Complications = 125 base points + 50 in Complications. That's how all of the sample characters in 6E1 and 6E2 are built.

[Simon]

Fascinating. And what you are defining as total points is exactly what you are entering in HD.....which means that Matching Complications DO NOT ADD IN. It's that simple.

You define the points that you want the character to have. You define the Complications that you want the character to take on. You move along.

That's the way that the characters are defined and that's the way that HD is handling things.

[BobGreenwade]

Matching Complications shouldn't add in, but in the actual program they do.

In a character I'm looking at right now, I have:

Total: 150
Matching Complications: 50
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points Spent: 200

Under the 6th Ed rules, "Experience Spent" should read 50. And if I actually have 40 points worth of Complications, "Experience Spent" should read 60. (See 6E1 28 & 414.) More accurately, I should have been able to enter 200 in the Total box for this character sheet, and seen on each tab that I've spent 200/200 points rather than 200/250.

[Simon]

Bob, I don't know how many times we need to go over this. It's getting extremely tiresome. You are misinterpreting things. You're either using a 5E template and thinking that it's 6E or you are just being extremely stubborn in assuming that there's something wrong and not seeing what is actually on the screen.

Total Points Spent is exactly that -- the total points that have ACTUALLY been spent on the character. If you set the following:

Points: 200
Matching Complications: 150

And then purchase 900 points in Powers, guess what? You get the following:

Experience Spent: 700
Total Points Spent: 900

If you look at any of the tabs, you will see at the top "Total Spent: 900/200" That's 900 points out of 200 available. Recognize that 200? That's the same number that was put into the "Points" field on the first tab. It DOES NOT INCLUDE the Matching Complications -- no matter how much you may want to think otherwise.

Let me do some math here:

Total Points Spent: 900
Points (the points allotted to the character): 200

900 - 200 = 700. I just bet that number would have to be the "experience" that you've spent in order to balance things out.

Since the character doesn't have 700 points of experience assigned, the numbers for Experience Spent and Total Points spent appear in red. Fancy that.

Everything is working exactly as it should and exactly as it appears in the rules.

[Simon]

Let's get even more explicit, shall we?

Here's the code for the total available points displayed at the top of each tab. You're going to need to trust me that it is IDENTICAL to the same code throughout other areas of the application:



double avail = HeroDesigner.getActiveHero().getBasePoints()
+ HeroDesigner.getActiveHero().getDisadPoints()
+ HeroDesigner.getActiveHero().getExperience();
if (HeroDesigner.getActiveTemplate().is6E()) {
avail -= HeroDesigner.getActiveHero().getDisadPoints();
}


Do you see that part where the "disad points" are subtracted back out for 6E characters? Do you see how it matches EXACTLY what you get at the top of each tab?

Can we end this now? Please?

[BobGreenwade]

We have some pretty strange behavior here, then.

I'm 99.93% sure this is a 6th Ed template, because among the Powers available are Barrier, Blast, and Damage Negation.

But for this larger character I'm looking at, I still have the attached. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe it's just me, but it just doesn't look right.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32816&stc=1&d=1255821297

I'd post the character itself if it wasn't a confidential work-for-hire. But if need be I could remove the Background information and change a few other details and post it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Bob, I don't know how many times we need to go over this. It's getting extremely tiresome. You are misinterpreting things. You're either using a 5E template and thinking that it's 6E or you are just being extremely stubborn in assuming that there's something wrong and not seeing what is actually on the screen.

Total Points Spent is exactly that -- the total points that have ACTUALLY been spent on the character. If you set the following:

Points: 200
Matching Complications: 150

And then purchase 900 points in Powers, guess what? You get the following:

Experience Spent: 700
Total Points Spent: 900

If you look at any of the tabs, you will see at the top "Total Spent: 900/200" That's 900 points out of 200 available. Recognize that 200? That's the same number that was put into the "Points" field on the first tab. It DOES NOT INCLUDE the Matching Complications -- no matter how much you may want to think otherwise.

Let me do some math here:

Total Points Spent: 900
Points (the points allotted to the character): 200

900 - 200 = 700. I just bet that number would have to be the "experience" that you've spent in order to balance things out.

Since the character doesn't have 700 points of experience assigned, the numbers for Experience Spent and Total Points spent appear in red. Fancy that.

Everything is working exactly as it should and exactly as it appears in the rules.

Dan, I did a character just as you described, except I gave him 150 points in "matching" Complications. I've attached the character. I've also attached a screenshot of what I see in the background tab. It's not correct, per 6E rules.

It's a 6th edition character. I went to File > New Character > New Character (6th Edition Rules) > Superheroic. I left everything at defaults, except for the 900 point Power and the 150 point Complication.

Under 6th edition, 200 points with 150 points in Matching Complications means 50 points base plus 150 in Complications. That's not what it's showing. It's showing 200 points base plus 150 points in Complications plus 550 spent Experience.

Edit: I added a screenshot to show 700 earned XP. He should have spent all of it. Instead, he's got 150 unspent -- the amount of Complications.

Edit II: I think we're talking past each other. In 6E, the operative point total is "Total Points Spent". A 400 point superhero in 6E is 400 Total Points Spent. I honestly don't care which way the program handles it, because I can work around it -- but 6E is not Base Points plus Complications; it's Total Points Spent.

[Simon]

Bob - The total points are the total points spent. They have nothing to do with the "Points" field or the "Matching Complications" field. If you want to see the total available, you can either:

1) Look at the "Points" field value.

2) Look at the top of any given tab, which will show you the same thing.



Chris:

Nowhere does 6E (either in the text or HD) talk about Base Points. It's just Points. That's it. It's not Points + Complications. It's. Just. Points.

When HD6 was first released, I had left in Base Points + Complications, thinking it would be easier for folks to transition. There was some discussion over that (ironically, started by Bob) which lead to HD tracking things as simply Points. That's all. That's when the Complications field changed to "Matching Complications".

Complications are not included in the total points for the character. ANYWHERE IN THE APP. At all. I don't know how many times I need to say this one -- code is code and i've posted the calculation above.

[Simon]

Edit II: I think we're talking past each other. In 6E, the operative point total is "Total Points Spent". A 400 point superhero in 6E is 400 Total Points Spent. I honestly don't care which way the program handles it, because I can work around it -- but 6E is not Base Points plus Complications; it's Total Points Spent.
There are no Base Points in 6E. It's not "Base Points + Matching Complications" -- it's just "Points" Complications do not factor into the total available at all.

There's just Points. Look at the screen -- it says "Points"

That value (plus experience) is used on all screens for the total available. I even posted the code that is used for the calculation itself.

[ghost-angel]

Here's what's going on for Bob and Chris (assuming I've got the right of it):

For the purposes of Association HD will take the Points+Experience Earned Fields.
If your Total Points Spent doesn't match those fields, that's up to you to justify and fix within that specific character.

The behavior your seeing on the Basic tab is simple: Your have X Points. If you don't take your Matching Complications you have X-Unused Matching Complications that must be made up for with Experience.

The formula could be thought of Points - Unused Complications = Total Points Available.
Instead of the 5E Base + Disadvantages Taken.

I hope that helps explain why and how the behavior in HD is correct.

[Simon]

Here's what's going on for Bob and Chris (assuming I've got the right of it):

For the purposes of Association HD will take the Points+Experience Earned Fields.
If your Total Points Spent doesn't match those fields, that's up to you to justify and fix within that specific character.

Absolutely correct....and in accordance with the rules.


The behavior your seeing on the Basic tab is simple: Your have X Points. If you don't take your Matching Complications you have X-Unused Matching Complications that must be made up for with Experience.

The formula could be thought of Points - Unused Complications = Total Points Available.
Instead of the 5E Base + Disadvantages Taken.


Almost correct - it's just the Points field. The total available value at the top of every ability tab (where it shows total spent / total available) is simply the "Points" field from the basic info tab plus the Experience field. Nothing else. Complications can go vastly over or under the value in the Matching Complications field -- it won't make any difference on the total available that is shown on every ability tab.

Total Points Available = Points + Experience Earned. That's it.

Total Points Available is also used for the optional campaign rules warnings, etc. (the checks that take place when adding an ability to a character)

[Chris Goodwin]

Total Points Available = Points + Experience Earned. That's it.


According to 6E1 p. 28, it's Total Points Available = (Points - Unused Complications) + Experience Earned.


The total Character Points’ worth of Complications you choose should equal the Matching Complications amount listed in the Character Types Guidelines Table for your type of campaign. You can take fewer points’ worth of Complications if you want, but every 1 Character Point by which you don’t meet the Matching Complications amount reduces your character’s Total Points by 1. (You can select more Complications than are required if you want them for your character, but they don’t provide you with extra Character Points to spend on your character.)

And the example:


Example: Jason is a player in a Champions campaign — a game of superheroes and crimefighting action! He’s going to create a character he calls Defender, a powered-armor wearing paragon of justice and crusader against evil. Jason’s GM decides to use the Standard Superheroic character type guidelines. That means Jason receives 400 Character Points he can spend to create Defender. But the Matching Complications amount for the campaign is 75 Character Points. If he prefers, Jason can pick only 50 Character Points’ worth of Complications. That’s perfectly all right, but since he’s 25 points below the Matching Complications amount, he only has (400 - 25 =) 375 Character Points to spend to create Defender.

[Simon]

And numerous other posts by Steve state that it is entirely permissable to go over or under on the Complications -- it's entirely up to the GM.

Essentially, Complications do not factor into the available points at all.

We are done here.

[BobGreenwade]

Total Points Available = Points + Experience Earned. That's it.On experimentation, everything you've stated is true, or at least close enough, except for this.

Applying this statement to the mini-screenshot I posted above, you're saying that 1091 = 400 + 616.

[Simon]

On experimentation, everything you've stated is true, or at least close enough, except for this.

Applying this statement to the mini-screenshot I posted above, you're saying that 1091 = 400 + 616.

Incorrect. See my statements (including code) above.

We're done.

[BobGreenwade]

Dan, I can find nothing in what you've said that explains to me why it's saying 616 Experience Spent instead of 691.

Unless I'm missing something significant, if this character had 475 Total Points Spent he'd have 0 Experience Spent. That does make a difference in character construction.

[Simon]

Bob -

1. We're talking about total points. Look at the title of the thread. Look at the discussion throughout the thread. Total Points. Easiest way to see the total points on a 6E character is to look at the 'Points' field on the Basic Info tab. Second easiest is to do what I've been telling you and to look at the top of any ability tab in the app. You started out on this road asking for things to be changed from the 5E way of doing things to the 6E way so that you could have an easier time reconciling Vehicles, Bases, etc. So I accommodated....and now you're griping. Total points are working EXACTLY AS INTENDED and EXACTLY as described in the rules. And exactly as REQUESTED by you.

2. If you have a problem with something other than total points calculations, I'm so far past the point of listening to your "debate" in this thread that it's not even worth approaching here. I'd _STRONGLY_ suggest starting a separate topic that discusses any other discrepancies you may be seeing. This thread has reached its end.

3. We're done here. Period. End of discussion.

[Manic Typist]

I just want to make sure I understand, since I've been encountering the same issue.

I started out building a character using the old layout in mind (75 Base + 75 in Complications, +8 XP= 158).

After 83 (75+8) the text turns red.

So I should really put the points in as 150 (Total) + 8, and I note how much of that total comes from Complications in that field?

[Simon]

Sigh.

If you want your character to have 75 points, you set "75" into the "Points" field.

If you want your character to have 83 points, you set "83" into the "Points" field.

This doesn't get any simpler, folks. Points is points and that's all there is to it.

I am now closing this thread.