6E Telekinetic Strength

[Shinobi Killfis]

So as in previous editions telekinesis costs 3 for 2 points of strength. Now while it feels balanced on the usefulness scale it is ranged and somewhat indirect strength, when you bump into AP limits it feels really weak in lifting power. Lets say you were standard superheroic and had a 80 point AP guideline. Your GM is feeling generous and lets you have 81 points or a 54 Str telekinesis. You can almost lift 50 tons, meanwhile mr muscles has an 80 strength and can lift 1.5 killatons. When it comes to the Damage and dice I get the balance but 50 tons compared to 1.5 killatons just feels total weaksauce in comparison.

Now if the bruiser puts himselft at 60 strength because he wants to be in the 12 dice of damge area then hey you are in the same ballpark of lifting strength. But all else being equal you look like a wuss when it comes to lifitng power. Any suggestions from people more familiar with creative rules taking on how to make a telekinetic with "Tons" of lifting strength while not really caring about the daamage output.

I'm not sure if this works, but I've thoguht of taking Extra Limbs(infitnite-telekinetic contrructs), stretching, does not cross interveining space, and indirect to some level) Then just take a bunch of strength defined as telekinteic strength. I don't know how these capabilites work together with AP limits though.

Side note: 6e looks sweet, I really love all the rule changes i have noticed so far. The layout and art are top notch as well.

[Steve Long]

Thanx for the kind words!

Since you seem to be looking for ideas and input, I've moved this to the Discussion board so anyone who wants to can offer a suggestion or an opinion. ;)

[mayapuppies]

There's always

Telekinesis (80 STR) (120 Active Points); Limited Power (Only For Lifting Purposes; -1)

[Hyper-Man]

Short answer - don't use hard caps.

Long answer - Allow the Telekinetic to exceed some caps but keep other stats closer to normal.

Take a look at these versions of Superman (http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The%20Man%20of%20Steel.html) and Green Lantern (http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The%20Ring%20Bearer.html) & his Power Ring (http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/Green%20Power%20Ring.HTML) as an example.

Superman can get up to a 75 STR. He can perform a 25d6 Move Through (not that he could hit anything smaller than a barn doing it).

Green Lantern's Ring essentially gives him access to a 90 active point VPP. With it, he has up to an 18d6 EB or 60 STR TK (but he still only has 'human range' 40 END). Just a little over 1 Turn of power use at full Active points without applying the Reduced END Advantage will quickly have him burning STUN instead of END to use the Ring.

Code vs. Killing also helps mitigate the otherwise very high damage potential of both of these characters.

[DocSamson]

I used to be a true believer in AP caps but 6th edition (Growth is one reason why, for example) has caused us to go back to a "Rule of X" format. As the GM, I have to take a harder look at characters during creation but with the extra work my players are able to use more builds than they previously could (as you pointed out 50 STR TK is not equal to 75 STR in combat).

[Sean Waters]

Ranged (indirect) STR is more useful than non-ranged STR, so it will cost more.

You can ignore point caps, which seems like a fine idea, so long as you monitor usefulness: the point is that Mr Muscles wants to be the strongest there is: your TK matching him AND being useable at range and through walls is going to make him want to go home crying.

Usually it is not lift capacity that people complain of - it is damage capacity.

I've let people in the past buy extra EB to add to their TK STR damage, and that has worked. Your Hulk is still stronger than your Great and Powerful Turtle, but they can both dish out the damage on a par.

(You can also put an EB in a MP, but that means switching off your TK, which may be a bad idea. You can buy TK and EB unified (or in an EC as was) but that can get very expensive.)

[Killer Shrike]

My advice is to use good judgment, not caps, unless the caps are serving to enforce an intended tone. I don't use caps for standard supers at all, but I do require justifications for abilities based on shtick / concept; overall I tend to pressure abilities towards a happy medium ground but still allowing for characters to shine within their concept.


If you are a player, and not the GM, then here's some more tactical advice:

Buy a base TK power outside of any framework up to, or five points below, the AP cap. This is your character's standard TK. You may or may not want to apply some modifiers.

Buy a TK multipower with a brute force slot of just extra STR, a fine manip slot, and an affects porous slot all defined to add to the base TK power. If the GM allows Naked Advantages you can also take some slots that apply useful Advantages like 0 END or AoE 1hex to your base TK. This will give you flexibility. You don't want to set off any flags, so keep the MP's reserve modest -- 1/2 the AP limit should allow you to squeeze by without alarming anyone. You might throw a 'requires a TK Power Skill Roll' lim, or Extra Time, or something along those lines on the MP to reduce its cost and to allow the argument that it represents a conditional boost vs a always available baseline. This should allow you to get your TK STR within "brick" range and give you some options. Use experience points to boost the MP instead of the base TK.

You're paying for the base TK outside of a framework, and if you structure the MP correctly it should be somewhat limited. This gives you a strong moral high ground to negotiate from with a hidebound GM who blindly applies a cap sans discretionary judgment on the worst case scenario, and the character should look about right to a more reasonable GM without further discussion. If your GM is more fast and loose, you can compensate on the high end by making the TK's reserve larger to start off with.

[Bloodstone]

Now if the bruiser puts himselft at 60 strength because he wants to be in the 12 dice of damge area then hey you are in the same ballpark of lifting strength. But all else being equal you look like a wuss when it comes to lifitng power. Any suggestions from people more familiar with creative rules taking on how to make a telekinetic with "Tons" of lifting strength while not really caring about the daamage output.

First off, I would say that standard STR is a bit more limited than TK STR, so I'm ok with the Brick having a considerable edge in raw lifting over the TK user.

However, when I have needed vast amounts of TK lifting, I have usually purchased TK alone (typically with Fine Manipulation) and then had extra TK STR on the side. This extra STR would have limitations like Affects Whole Object, Concentration, Extra Time and/or Increased Endurance.

So, with an 80 pt limit, I might try for something like this:

64 Telekinesis (35 STR), Fine Manipulation, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) - END=3

27 Telekinesis (+40 STR) (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) - END=12

Total cost: 91

It's "only" 75 STR and is a bit more expensive than buying 80 STR straight up, but it's got a lot of advantages that normal STR just can't cover, the least of which being the range and indirect nature of the powers.

If you have an TK Tricks MP, you can easily shove the extra TK in there to save points.

Obviously, that will all be pending GM approval.

EDIT: looks like KS beat me to the punch!

[prestidigitator]

If you're going to impose a maximum, consider imposing it on DCs of damage/effect rather than Active Points. With a 16 DC maximum, your TK will still be limited to 10-11d6 of damage without Advantages that affect damage, but you can actually buy much more than that for lifting and other purposes. A nice GM might even allow you to put a Limitation on the extra TK to reflect the fact that it can't increase damage, thus giving you a bit of a break on the cost because of the decreased benefit.

[Sean Waters]

50 Strength is pretty powerful stuff. What is the idea behind the character?

[Shinobi Killfis]

For my first character for 6E I wanted to go with a basic Telekinetic. Strength, forcefields, flight, and a EB. I was using Jean Grey back during the X-Factor days as inspiration. Like I said I get the utility and balance side of things to some degree, but given how weight scales it quickly gets to a point where Telekinesis looks really weak in comparison.

Initially I wanted to keep it simple as I learn the differences in this edition, but I bumped into this issue. While I expect the strong guy to be stronger I wasn't envisioning 25 tons compared to 1.5 kilotons weaker.

Not that it relates to this character but I can't get autofire to ever work effectively either without either gimicking the system hard or using way too many AP. My attempts at a Gambit character throw mutliple cards as a special effect not as an actual autofire attack. Reducing the Endurance to a bearable level ends up making the damage so weak that it bounces off all defenses and doesn't even really hurt many viper agents much, or it ends up costing a whole heck of a lot and isn't much more effective than a basic 12d6 attack. I should make a new thread for autofire, but it can wait until I have to deal with it.

[Hyper-Man]

re: effective use of Autofire

Take a look at my version of Green Arrow in my sig below.
He has a 60 Active point Multipower where nearly all slots have Charges (which takes care of 0 END). He also has a Ranged Martial Arts package that can increase the damage to those 'arrow' slots that have the Autofire Advantage. The character is also built to take advantage of the 'Ranged Sweep'/Rapid Attack rules. The sfx of his Autofire arrows is that he can grab and knock up to 3 at a time for one bow-pull. Rapid Attack actually involves separate bow pulls.

Hopefully something like this could be 'ported over to a Gambit build.

[Shinobi Killfis]

re: effective use of Autofire

Take a look at my version of Green Arrow in my sig below.
He has a 60 Active point Multipower where nearly all slots have Charges (which takes care of 0 END). He also has a Ranged Martial Arts package that can increase the damage to those 'arrow' slots that have the Autofire Advantage. The character is also built to take advantage of the 'Ranged Sweep'/Rapid Attack rules. The sfx of his Autofire arrows is that he can grab and knock up to 3 at a time for one bow-pull. Rapid Attack actually involves separate bow pulls.

Hopefully something like this could be 'ported over to a Gambit build.

Yeah, I've been able to work it with charges. But for any power based character where charges don't make much sense it just doesn't work very well. With the same 60 point multipower you either have 6D6 1/2 end or 8d6 and blow through wads of endurance. 6d6 bounses off all opponents in the same ballpark and doesn't really jack up agents unless you hit with most or all of the shots. So you end up having XD6 NNd, area of effect, 0 end just so it does something and it ends up frequently doing too much. Frustrating, but like I said I can just call the multiple shots a special effect and go from there.

[Hyper-Man]

Another method would be to put the Autofire Advantage on the Multipower Reserve as a whole (This means that all slots in the Multipower must contain powers that Autofire is a legal Advantage).

example:

34 He's a Card Shark: Multipower, 62-point reserve, all slots Autofire (3 shots; Note that less than 3 shots can be used as well; +1/4) (77 Active Points); all slots OIF (small objects of opportunity (like playing cards); -1/2), Restrainable (Needs to be able to throw objects; -1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4) - END=
3f 1) Blast 10d6 (vs. PD), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (62 Active Points) - END=2
3f 2) Blast 8d6 (vs. PD), Double Knockback (+1/2) (60 Active Points) - END=6

Combine with 10-20 points worth of Ranged Martial Arts Maneuvers and DC's and you've got a pretty effective 'Gambit' attack multipower.

[Sean Waters]

You are never going to get near to 'normal' STR with TK STR simply because TK STR costs 150% of normal STR, because it is more useful: it does stuff normal STR can not do.

I say 'never going to get near' - that is not true; you can spend 150% of the points and you are golden.

That will probably pop any point caps you may have - as you may have gathered, the consensus is that point caps are at best viewed as a guidleline, or maybe ignored altogether: the really important thing is whether the character works as part of that game.

I don't now how powerful Jean Grey was when she was in X Factor (in fact I hadn't realised she was in X Factor), but she is a monstrously powerful archetype for a starting character.

[Killer Shrike]

Here are some TK based characters for your possible amusement:
Harrier (http://www.killershrike.com/Aegis/Harrier.HTML)
Justice (http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Supers/Marvel/NewWarriors/Justice.HTML)
Vesper (http://www.killershrike.com/SouthernJustice/Vesper.HTML)
Ascension (http://www.killershrike.com/HERONet/Ascension.HTML)

This is a gravity based character, but he's got TK based effects:
Gravitic (http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/MillMenHiPower/Gravitic.HTML)

[Beast]

you could go with a Blast power based on TK force to get up to a 16DC damage
and have both in a multipower

[tesuji]

i tend to use dc limits not ap limits. so a tk character and a brick character can get to 60 strength. the tk guy simply pays more because he has his as 90 ap tk. but he also has advantages in ranges etc.

then again the brick has 30 pts to spend elsewhere.

[prestidigitator]

i tend to use dc limits not ap limits. so a tk character and a brick character can get to 60 strength. the tk guy simply pays more because he has his as 90 ap tk. but he also has advantages in ranges etc.

then again the brick has 30 pts to spend elsewhere.

In 6E, DC limits will keep the TK at fewer dice of damage than Str. DCs are literally now measured by the number of Active Points in the power, ignoring any Advantages that do not affect damage. So if you've got a "hard" 12 DC limit, that's 60 Str (12d6) or 40 TK Str (8d6). Either one could have Reduced Endurance on it without needing to reduce the number of dice though.

[Hyper-Man]

In 6E, DC limits will keep the TK at fewer dice of damage than Str. DCs are literally now measured by the number of Active Points in the power, ignoring any Advantages that do not affect damage. So if you've got a "hard" 12 DC limit, that's 60 Str (12d6) or 40 TK Str (8d6). Either one could have Reduced Endurance on it without needing to reduce the number of dice though.

I thought that DC's were only pro-rated when adding damage from weapons and/or Advantaged HA's & HKA's. You're saying there is a section of 6e that specifically mentions TK DC's as well?

[ghost-angel]

In 6E, DC limits will keep the TK at fewer dice of damage than Str. DCs are literally now measured by the number of Active Points in the power, ignoring any Advantages that do not affect damage. So if you've got a "hard" 12 DC limit, that's 60 Str (12d6) or 40 TK Str (8d6). Either one could have Reduced Endurance on it without needing to reduce the number of dice though.

No - Damage Classes are Damage Classes and Active Points are Active Points.

DCs are measured as APs for Damage Adding purposes only. And then only if Advantages are involved.

40 STR TK is going to produce 8 Damage Classes and 60 Active Points. Just like before.

[prestidigitator]

No - Damage Classes are Damage Classes and Active Points are Active Points.

DCs are measured as APs for Damage Adding purposes only. And then only if Advantages are involved.

40 STR TK is going to produce 8 Damage Classes and 60 Active Points. Just like before.

I don't think so.


The Damage Class (“DC”) of an attack provides a way to do this. An attack’s DC is based on the number of Active Points in it divided by 5. Thus, a Blast 3d6 and Ranged Killing Attack 1d6 (each with 15 Active Points) are both Damage Class 3 — or, in more game-oriented terms, each has 3 DCs.
...
The basic rule for Damage Classes is: 1 DC equals 5 Active Points in the Power. Thus, a power with 45 Active Points has 9 DCs.
...
Each DC remains equal to 5 Active Points, so to figure out how many DCs each dice of damage is worth, you must determine the Active Point cost of 1d6 worth of the Power. To do this, multiply the cost of 1d6 of the Power by the value of all Advantages that directly affect how the victim takes damage (see below).

For TK, 2d6 of damage costs 15 points, which is 3 DCs (7.5 Active Points per DC). I don't know how you could get more straightforward than that. By the way, that's in the "Determining Damage" section, not the "Adding Damage" section (6E2/C&A pp. 99+).

[ghost-angel]

5ER p403 - Exact Same Wording.

It hasn't changed one iota. No one I know will count 60AP TK as 12DCs. Because it doesn't DO 12DCs in Damage. Using that formula then a 40STR TK (60 AP) will do 12D6 Damage.

So, can I do 12D6 with my 40STR TK in your games? awesome.

[ghost-angel]

TK is very much a special case type of thing, to expand further on the topic.

It does Normal Damage, like Energy Blast or Strength. Which means the STR Bought almost always equates to the Damage Classes, not the Active Points of TK.

Think of it - if one really must - as a series of Advantages that don't add to DCs. Because pretty much anyone will tell you that 8D6 Normal Damage is 8DCs, not 12.

[Shinobi Killfis]

I noticed under the characteristic power it gave an example of Strength just for lifting at a -4 limitation. Or at least I think it says that, the iphone isn't to great for reading PDFs. For TK would you think that would be the same limit. I don't know why, but it doesn't seem as limiting to me when its at range.

[Hyper-Man]

...

Think of it - if one really must - as a series of Advantages that don't add to DCs. ...

Exactly.

Does 6e have Ranged and Indirect add to DC's (say if applied to a HKA)?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

You are never going to get near to 'normal' STR with TK STR simply because TK STR costs 150% of normal STR, because it is more useful: it does stuff normal STR can not do.

I say 'never going to get near' - that is not true; you can spend 150% of the points and you are golden.

That will probably pop any point caps you may have - as you may have gathered, the consensus is that point caps are at best viewed as a guidleline, or maybe ignored altogether: the really important thing is whether the character works as part of that game.

I don't now how powerful Jean Grey was when she was in X Factor (in fact I hadn't realised she was in X Factor), but she is a monstrously powerful archetype for a starting character.

Well...she was as Phoenix, but Marvel Girl as herself was pretty weak originally. They added mental powers to her later to make her more useful(IMO) and then when she came back after her death(the first time), she lost the mental powers but her TK was buffed up(X-factor). An X-factor version of her is probably a feasible starting 6thE character.

[Bloodstone]

Well...she was as Phoenix, but Marvel Girl as herself was pretty weak originally. They added mental powers to her later to make her more useful(IMO) and then when she came back after her death(the first time), she lost the mental powers but her TK was buffed up(X-factor). An X-factor version of her is probably a feasible starting 6thE character.

Before her most recent death she was capable of about a 55 STR without the Phoenix Force.

I'm pretty sure back in her X-Factor days shes was right around the 40-45 range.

[Ninja-Bear]

Any thoughts on buying a higher tk str with the limitation reduced by range ? Depending on sfx it could be justified that the farther away from the character the weaker the tk.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Before her most recent death she was capable of about a 55 STR without the Phoenix Force.

I'm pretty sure back in her X-Factor days shes was right around the 40-45 range.

Marvel has fairly weak strength compared to DC. Virtually no one is in the 100+ ton range and fewer still exceed 100+ tons by a big margin. When I convert marvel character concepts to a champions world I adjust strength to the norms of that world. Colossus is supposed to be fairly strong, but under marvel he was in the 50 tons range. If 60 strength is average strong buy I'd put him at 60 strength, if 60 is high strength in the setting I keep him in the 50 ton range and a 55 strength.

Same for telekinetic's, I expect her strength to be under the team strong guys just not by the margin the same AP would indicate.

[Bloodstone]

Colossus is supposed to be fairly strong, but under marvel he was in the 50 tons range. If 60 strength is average strong buy I'd put him at 60 strength, if 60 is high strength in the setting I keep him in the 50 ton range and a 55 strength.

As I recall, Colossus was stronger than that. 70 tons when he first started off, nearly as strong as the Thing back in the day. He's up in the 100 ton range now though.

I should also point out that Marvel measures a persons physical strength differently than their telekinetic power. Telekinetic ability is based on how much you can levitate off the ground. Period. Physical strength is based on how much a character can Press, which is a specific type of lift. Being able to Press 50 tons requires a greater degree of STR than being able to just lift 50 tons.

That said, I know where you're coming from. The comics only seem to use a characters official profile as a rough guideline and for an homage/conversion, that sort of things doesn't really matter anyhow.

[prestidigitator]

TK is very much a special case type of thing, to expand further on the topic.

It does Normal Damage, like Energy Blast or Strength. Which means the STR Bought almost always equates to the Damage Classes, not the Active Points of TK.

Think of it - if one really must - as a series of Advantages that don't add to DCs. Because pretty much anyone will tell you that 8D6 Normal Damage is 8DCs, not 12.

Apparently we're both right. Almost. Or something. See the Telekinesis DCs (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76131) question I asked Steve Long.

[prestidigitator]

Exactly.

Does 6e have Ranged and Indirect add to DC's (say if applied to a HKA)?

Not on the default/standard list, but the final set of Advantages that count are pretty carefully left in GM judgement land.

[ghost-angel]

Steve replied - either/or. He seems to believe most GMs would count 40STR TK as 8DCs.

I would like to note that your passage about DCs being AP/5 is the exact same in 5E as it is in 6E. There is no change here.

[Killer Shrike]

I agreed (and still do) with GA that 40 STR TK = 8 DCs, but the wording prestidigitator quoted did give me pause as I could see where his perspective that it equals 12 DCs as a valid interpretation as well. I assumed it was simply a lack of clarity in the rules on this point and it is indeed 8 DCs.

Steve's ruling surprised me. It seems like he's saying that 12 DCs is the correct interpretation of the rules as written, though in common usage its more like 8 DCs. There seems to definitely be a gray area left in GM's interpretation land.

Luckily for me, I generally don't use caps, but this definitely goes down on the "nuances to remember" list for future reference.

Thanks for hashing this one out guys!

[prestidigitator]

It'll also make a big difference in adding damage to TK attacks. Will it take just one DC to add a die of TK damage, or will it take 1.5 DCs (I know there's no such thing as a partial DC; I'm talking averages here)?

[Shinobi Killfis]

As I recall, Colossus was stronger than that. 70 tons when he first started off, nearly as strong as the Thing back in the day. He's up in the 100 ton range now though.

I should also point out that Marvel measures a persons physical strength differently than their telekinetic power. Telekinetic ability is based on how much you can levitate off the ground. Period. Physical strength is based on how much a character can Press, which is a specific type of lift. Being able to Press 50 tons requires a greater degree of STR than being able to just lift 50 tons.

That said, I know where you're coming from. The comics only seem to use a characters official profile as a rough guideline and for an homage/conversion, that sort of things doesn't really matter anyhow.

Continuing with the comparison, I guess my point is I would not mind a 25 ton marvel girl to 100 ton colossus. Its the 25 ton to 1.5 kiloton that bothers me, even if its at range your power is the look I can lift stuff power. If the other archtype outclasses you at it by that much it just feels weak. Oh, well its not that big of a deal. As long as we don't use AP and more use other forms of balancing I'll be fine.

[Beast]

what this character needs to hang and bang with those tossing 12 DC punches, would be to have a 2nd slot in an MP that has a 12DC blast(force bolt)
or even a 2nd power under the unified limitation(plus others if needed for flavor)in 6th ed
or 2 slots in an EC if using 5th ed rev(1 tk and the other EB)
or just a large enough MP to run both or go smaller and run 1 at a time in either 5th or 6th

[SteveZilla]

However, when I have needed vast amounts of TK lifting, I have usually purchased TK alone (typically with Fine Manipulation) and then had extra TK STR on the side. This extra STR would have limitations like Affects Whole Object, Concentration, Extra Time and/or Increased Endurance.

So, with an 80 pt limit, I might try for something like this:

64 Telekinesis (35 STR), Fine Manipulation, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) - END=3

27 Telekinesis (+40 STR) (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4) - END=12

Total cost: 91

It's "only" 75 STR and is a bit more expensive than buying 80 STR straight up, but it's got a lot of advantages that normal STR just can't cover, the least of which being the range and indirect nature of the powers.

You do realise that if such a character is hit with a Drain TK, he effectively gets hit for double the effect (after defenses)? Personally, I wouldn't allow a character to use Unified Power on what are two parts of the same Power for similar reasons as disallowing Linked.

[ghost-angel]

It'll also make a big difference in adding damage to TK attacks. Will it take just one DC to add a die of TK damage, or will it take 1.5 DCs (I know there's no such thing as a partial DC; I'm talking averages here)?

Given "Ranged" doesn't normally add to effective damage, I would add things to TK at a 1:1 rate, and generally consider TK to be the primary attacking Power things are adding to.

[Sean Waters]

Neither Ranged nor Indirect add to damage directly, but combined they are a potentially very nasty combination, especially if the character has some sort of Green Lantern barrier power going.

I don't know where I'd come down on it, personally, but I'd be inclined to veto big damage increases to TK (say some ranged martial arts and 4 levels of extra DC).

I'd have to look at it but that would make 60 STR TK do as much damage as an 18d6 Blast for only +24 points - whilst retaining all the TK functionality. That's going to be cheaper than buying an indirect 18d6 Blast.

Of course the OP was after more lifting STr rather than more damage, but there you go.

[torchwolf]

Hmm. Since you could pick up any heavy object and bludgeon away using TK, I suppose that portion of it adds to damage as STR does, and would have similar advantages as buying a HTH Attack or HKA with Ranged. The damage should reasonable add 1:1, but the advantages on having STR at range are worth a 50% increase in Active points, just like the Ranged Advantage.

Example: Brawny Bill is a telekinetic, but noone knows this at this point in the campaign, since he has so far just used his TK to pretend he is super strong (all the benefits of STR). Unknown to anyone as yet, he can also do this at range (equaling buying the Ranged advantage on STR, costing the same).

Using an increased lifting capacity only on TK would not allow it to do more damage directly, but it could still be used to drop heavy stuff on people, doing more damage than a TK that couldn't lift as much; hence, I don't think the active points should be reduced in such a case, even if it is definitely worth a limitation.

That's my theory on it, but you may of course crush it now. ;)

[prestidigitator]

Given "Ranged" doesn't normally add to effective damage, I would add things to TK at a 1:1 rate, and generally consider TK to be the primary attacking Power things are adding to.

Right. I was just pointing out another consequence of the choice of considering 40 TK Str to be 8 DCs or 12 DCs (1 DC or 1.5 DCs per die of damage).

[PhilFleischmann]

And how often is the ability to lift 1.5 kilotons going to be needed? Especially in combat?

And BTW, it's "kilo-", not "killa-".

[Beast]

dropping 2 aircraft carriers on a foe
he might have a problem crawling out from under them
large hills could work also




And how often is the ability to lift 1.5 kilotons going to be needed? Especially in combat?

And BTW, it's "kilo-", not "killa-".

[Fireg0lem]

Yeah, our group's solution was to houserule TK to be 1 DC per 7.5 base AP rather than 5, and we use DC rather than AP in our caps.

[PhilFleischmann]

dropping 2 aircraft carriers on a foe
he might have a problem crawling out from under them
large hills could work also
My question wasn't "What can you potentially do with 1.5 kton of lift?" but "How often do you need 1.5 kton of lift?"

I've never been in a game where there were two aircraft carriers of opportunity lying around. And large hills have at least two major disadvantages: 1, they're attached to the ground, and 2, they usually aren't available in one solid piece that you can just pick up like a single rock. Also, depending on where you are, there may be people living on that hill that might be upset with you (not to mention the people with a vested interest in the aircraft carriers).

[Greywind]

You mean the SDF-1 might want to keep its arms?