5ER: The "Disable" element from UMA and disabling generally

[eightiesboi]

Hello all,

I posted these questions for Steve, but he has indicated that he won't be able to get back to me for about a month or so. Therefore, I come humbly before you all, begging for illumination. Or at least a couple of solid opinions! :)

I am constructing a custom martial maneuver for a heroic campaign. Disabling and Impairing rules are being used, as are Hit Locations. I am confused, however, as to the application of the disabling rules from 5ER 417 with the Disable element. Let me start with what I know:

1. The Disable element automatically targets a limb. (UMA 92)
2. The Disable element ignores all penalties and bonuses associated with the particular hit location targeted. (UMA 92)
3. A limb becomes disabled when the BODY damage done to an area is more than the character's total BODY. (5ER 417, ignoring the parenthetical about before or after location bonuses / penalties).
4. An attack that hits a limb cannot (normally) do more damage than 1/3 the total starting BODY. (5ER 413) Further, as presented in both examples on that page, one wishing to sever a limb need only do 1/3 of the total starting BODY in damage to that limb to do so.

My questions (assume that my opponent has 12 BODY when fully healed, and has no applicable defenses):

1. If any attack that hits my opponent in the leg does a total of 4 BODY (after modifiers), is the leg severed, as in the example in 5ER 413?
2. Assuming in the previous question that the BODY done before modifiers was 8 BODY, does this mean that regardless of the previous answer, the limb is not disabled (but may be impaired)? In other words, if the answer to question #1 is yes, the limb is not disabled, but it isn't attached to my opponent anymore? (This seems nonsensical, which is why I must be misreading something.)
3. If I have a martial maneuver with the disable element, does that effect my chances to disable the limb at all? Is disabling now automatic, or is the only bonus that I don't receive any OCV penalties for targeting a limb? (It would seem to me that there must be something I am missing, as the rules for disabling already specify that BODY damage can be taken into account before and after the BODYx modifier.)
4. If I have a martial strike with the disable element that does 1d6 KD, and if the disable element does not automatically disable the specified limb nor provide bonuses to disabling the limb, would I ever actually be able to disable my opponents limb, as I can't roll 12 BODY on 1d6 (although I am working on it!)? Obviously, the answer to this question depends on the previous one.
5. Since a limb can only take a maximum of 1/3 starting BODY damage, is it ever possible to accumulate enough damage to disable (or sever) a limb? For example, in phase three I do 3 BODY to my opponent's leg (less than of his starting 12 BODY). In phase six, I do 3 BODY to his same leg--does this mean that I really only did 1 BODY to his leg, severing it, or another 3 BODY? In phase nine, I do another 3 BODY to the same leg (assuming it is still there). Finally, in phase 12, I do another 3 BODY, same leg. Is my opponent now at 0 BODY, with all limbs intact and fully functional, 8 BODY, but missing a leg from back in phase 6 (and I've wasted my attacks in phases 9 and 12), or 8 BODY, but with a leg that's just been disabled in phase 12?
6. Assuming that the rules for disabling nerve strikes (UMA 157) are not being used, can you disable or impair a limb with an NND attack, or does the attack have to do BODY (assuming the NND does not)? Can a limb ever be impaired or disabled through taking STUN?

Any intelligent discussion or even a helpful grunt or two would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks!

Scott

[Ninja-Bear]

Holy Long Post Flying Rat-man!

I'll try to answer some of your questions. Note I could be wrong too. But here I go !

1.) Disabled yes-severed depends on special effect.
2.) Not that I'm aware of. Its eithered disabled or not. Though personally I'm looking for PC to be impaired instead of disabled.
3.) The disable element doubles your body rolled to see if you can disable a limb. I.e. I roll 4D6 normal and get 3 bod with a disable manuever. I double the body to 6 for purpose of checking to see if the limb is disabled. Assuming 10 bod, the limb only has 3 bod.
4.) I think I justed answered it for you in #3.
5.) I think yes
6.) No (but I could see a yes if GM desired.) and No not by stun.

Well I hope that this is helpful. :)

Hopefully someone else will cime in at give their insights too.

[prestidigitator]

My take on it was always that you had to do the character's starting Body to disable a limb, before or after the Hit Location's Body mutiplier. For example, if the target has 15 Body and you hit a hand, you only have to do 15 Body to Disable, not 30. However, no matter how much damage you have to do in a hit to Disable the limb, no more than 5 Body will be subtracted from that target's current Body score due to damage to that limb. So to that target with 15 max Body:

if your attack did 8 Body, the target would lose 4 Body from their Body score
If your attack did 10 Body, the target would lose 5 from their Body score, but the limb wouldn't be Disabled
If your attack did 15 Body (or more), the target would lose 5 from their Body score AND the limb would be Disabled.

With the assumption that the target hasn't taken any damage to the limb before your attack. If they had, the Disabling results would be the same but they might not reduce their Body score by the full amount.

[eightiesboi]

Thanks for the replies! Normally, the regulars here are pretty good with answering questions, but between the lack of response in this forum and Steve's delay in response, I was beginning to despair... :(


Holy Long Post Flying Rat-man!

I'll try to answer some of your questions. Note I could be wrong too. But here I go !

1.) Disabled yes-severed depends on special effect.

Gotcha. So the example in 5ER is just special effect. I'll buy that.



2.) Not that I'm aware of. Its eithered disabled or not. Though personally I'm looking for PC to be impaired instead of disabled.
3.) The disable element doubles your body rolled to see if you can disable a limb. I.e. I roll 4D6 normal and get 3 bod with a disable manuever. I double the body to 6 for purpose of checking to see if the limb is disabled. Assuming 10 bod, the limb only has 3 bod.
4.) I think I justed answered it for you in #3.


Okay, I think this is where some of my confusion really starts. As I understand it, the limb isn't disabled until the starting BODY of the whole opponent is reached--not the BODY of the limb. If the limb has 4 BODY and the total starting BODY is 12, then 12 BODY, done to the limb, is necessary to disable it--not 4. Am I wrong here?

Also, you refer to doubling the BODY for the purpose of checking to see if a limb is disable when using a martial maneuver with the 'disable' element, and I have seen this point referenced before; however, I am unable to find this in 5ER or UMA. Can you point me in the right direction?

[eightiesboi]

Thanks for the reply!


My take on it was always that you had to do the character's starting Body to disable a limb, before or after the Hit Location's Body mutiplier. For example, if the target has 15 Body and you hit a hand, you only have to do 15 Body to Disable, not 30. However, no matter how much damage you have to do in a hit to Disable the limb, no more than 5 Body will be subtracted from that target's current Body score due to damage to that limb. So to that target with 15 max Body:


if your attack did 8 Body, the target would lose 4 Body from their Body score
If your attack did 10 Body, the target would lose 5 from their Body score, but the limb wouldn't be Disabled
If your attack did 15 Body (or more), the target would lose 5 from their Body score AND the limb would be Disabled.

With the assumption that the target hasn't taken any damage to the limb before your attack. If they had, the Disabling results would be the same but they might not reduce their Body score by the full amount.

Okay, this is more in line with how I was reading the rules--in which case, as I understand it, a martial manuever with 1d6 HKA and the 'disable' element will never actually disable a limb on an opponent with more than 6 BODY, no matter how many times it is applied. Would you agree?

Does anyone else have a better understanding of this? :help:

Does anyone know where I can find a llama? :celebrate

[prestidigitator]

Okay, this is more in line with how I was reading the rules--in which case, as I understand it, a martial manuever with 1d6 HKA and the 'disable' element will never actually disable a limb on an opponent with more than 6 BODY, no matter how many times it is applied. Would you agree?

Yes. I would agree. The description of the Disable Element (UMA p. 156) says nothing about doubling the amount of damage for purposes of Disabling. However, it does state that the attack does not suffer to-hit or damage penalties. I would assume that means it effectively makes the minimum Hit Location Body multiplier 1, instead of 1/2 for some Locations as it is normally. I disagree that, in the rules-as-written, that makes it easier (in terms of the damage done) to Impair or Disable a limb, as rules for those effects work on the Body total before or after the multiplier.

Unless there's some kind of FAQ answer on that, I guess it's an unfortunate discrepancy between the description text and the rules. I'd explain it away as the bone-breaking/ligament-tearing attack causing a great deal of physical damage compared to a normal attack with the same amount of force behind it, I suppose. And since the targeting (to-hit) penalty doesn't apply, that does in a way make it easier to purposefully Impair/Disable a targeted limb, even if the difference in damage doesn't change the effects in the mechanics.

[Ninja-Bear]

Okay Prestigitator is correct. Disabling does not double damage to see if it breaks as I first thought. I have no idea where I got that from. :confused: But the element still makes it easier to break because you don't impose any location penalties to hit or damage as per normal disable rules. But yes if a person has 12 body, the limb will break after 4 body, but unless GM otherwise says, the person will not take more than 4 body. That is suppose to balance out the disable element. Oh and as for impairment. when I was fact checking, I looked at UMA 4th, ad in the text, Steve did mention that if you did less body than would take to break the limb, then you perhaps did a minor fracture. Maybe you will want to rule this as an impairment ? I don't think this would be too unbalancing.

Lastly I would suggest though that you thry a couple of mock battles with this element to see how it works. At least it will give you a feel for the rules ahead of time.

Also to be clear about severing a limb and sfx; if you use a sword and disable then yes the limb would be cut off. If the manuever is a kneebreak then I don't see that the limb would be severed, just broken and useless. I just wanted to make that clear.

Good luck :thumbup:

[Ninja-Bear]

Eightiesboi, when I get a chance, I'm going to runa couple of battles with disable and see how it goes. If you want, I can pm you the results if and when I do it ?