Enough to Destroy A Planet?

[Kristopher]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76710-BOOM-Table-vs-HERO

I started a thread over on the Star Hero forum, hoping to discuss the actual energy needed to destroy a planet vs what's been published in HERO. I'm going to check the Star Hero book when I get home tonight and compare it with the section printed therein.

[Sean Waters]

You know, I like you, but your nuts :)

Zettatons?

The Body of Earth is, what, 85? 86? - I think I've seen it mentioned as that somewhere - ASSUMING that you treat the planet as a homogenous whole*. So a single 170 Body hit would pretty much destroy it completely - reduce it to gravel. that would be, what - 14 zettatons?

So, 14 Zettatons = 170 Body and....sheesh - Excel doesn't do numbers that big.

OK

Assume each body is twice the damage of the previous one, 170 Body is 1.5X10^51 times more damage than 1 Body - so that leaves 1 body at still far too much damage - so the usual exponential approach doesn't well there.

I don't know, in short :D




*This does assume an exponential approach to damage, which many argue against. Not me, but many.

[Naanomi]

Better to spread a single 100 damage attack with AoE big enough to cover a big enough chunk of the planet to make sure the rest will follow suit.

[Oruncrest]

I had a nice long reply written, but then the boards kicked me off and ate the reply. So i'll summarize:

1 Zettaton = 10^15 Megatons (from Atomic Rocket's Boom Table (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#boom) = +50 DC.

7 Zettatons = the DC from 1 Megaton + 53 DC.

if 1 Megaton = 42 DC (from my interpretation of a 1 Meagaton Nuke (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/25838-Damage?p=561243#post561243)), then 7 Zettatons = 95 DC = 32D6-1 RKA = 111 BODY.

if 1 Megaton = 60 DC (from Steve Long's Nuke in the HERO System Almanac II), then 7 Zettatons = 113 DC = 38D6-1 RKA = 132 BODY.

Both fall well short of the 177 BODY needed to destroy the Earth (from Star HERO). And I believe Steve said that the number needed in The Ultimate Base would be even higher.

It might work if we treated the planet as a wall instead of a vehicle (63 BODY to punch thru the planet, 121 BODY to destroy it) but I think that being defined as a vehicle is just fine for 'Spaceship Earth'.

[SSgt Baloo]

Destroy the Earth?!? :shock:

But... but... I live there!!! :cry:

[Sean Waters]

At the moment...

[Kristopher]

I think the real answer here is that the Earth has a lot more BODY than a simple reading of the BODY per mass rules would indicate, and this points to the fact that the system doesn't scale up well beyond a certain point.

[Ockham's Spoon]

This brings to mind one of my pet peeves with the movie Star Wars. The Death Star fires its big gun at a planet and the planet explodes. Why is it that the giant plasma bolt doesn't just punch a hole through the planet? Granted that would cause lots of destruction and may set off earthquakes and volcanos and atmospheric catastrophes that would ruin the place for the inhabitants, but it isn't like the core of the planet is made of dynamite. If I had to design a weapon to reduce a planet to gravel in Hero terms, I would require a massive AoE (Megascaled of course) to make it hit the whole planet instead of just buying it as a high damage RKA.

Now from a military point of view, destroying a planet doesn't necessarily mean reducing it to gravel, it just means killing everything there, so the Death Star would have been just fine blasting holes in things. Of course that isn't as cinematic, which is obviously what really counts.

[McCoy]

Now from a military point of view, destroying a planet doesn't necessarily mean reducing it to gravel, it just means killing everything there, so the Death Star would have been just fine blasting holes in things. Of course that isn't as cinematic, which is obviously what really counts.
Haven't looked at the other thread, but that was my first question and where most threads on this subject have bogged down. Have we defined "destroy?" Is removing the atmosphere sufficient? How about melting the crust? or must the planet be transformed into an asteroid belt?

How many active points for "Transform: planet into asteroid belt?"

[GoldenAge]

How about a giant AVLD or NND (that does BODY)? The aliens may want to move right in! :)

[Matt the Bruins]

MegaScaled Change Environment (fresh air to Limburger cheese fumes) ought to do the trick handily. Everything with a sense of smell would take its own life in short order once it realized the smell couldn't be escaped.

[Duke Bushido]

Destroy the Earth?!? :shock:

But... but... I live there!!! :cry:


"It's where I keep all my stuff!!"

:D

[SSgt Baloo]

"It's where I keep all my stuff!!"

:D

I can't remember the movie you're quoting from, but I remember the line. Rep to you, sir.

[lemming]

I can't remember the movie you're quoting from, but I remember the line. Rep to you, sir.

Tick.

[SSgt Baloo]

10-q!

[The Rose]

How about a giant EDM that effects everything in the universe and transports everything to an exact copy of itself (less the plant in question) where said planet is a asteroid belt? How much do you think that would cost? :)

La Rose

[Egyptoid]

the power level would have to be over 9OOO.

[megaplayboy]

Mass of planet earth = about 6 x 10^24 kg.
Mass-energy of planet earth = 5.4 x 10^41 joules. Takes a lot less energy than that to shatter it into tiny pieces, even less to break it into big chunks, and far less to render the surface uninhabitable.
A 1 megaton nuke will reduce everything within 1 kilometer to molten slag or irradiated rubble.

A 10 STR lifting a 100kg weight to a height of 1 meter = about 1000 joules.
160 STR lifting 100 megatons to a height of 1 meter = about 10^12 joules
510 STR, lifting about 8 solar masses 1 meter = about 10^41 joules

Looks like about 525 STR would equal or exceed the mass-energy of the planet Earth. I know Star Hero suggested you'd need around 51d6 KA, with a massive AoE, to do the job, but maybe the planet's a bit overrated--I think you might "only" need about 100 DC applied across a planet-sized area.

[Duke Bushido]

I can't remember the movie you're quoting from, but I remember the line. Rep to you, sir.

Thank you, Sir. And as soon as I can, I _am_ going to heap rep upon you for your lame/unlame thread. :D

The quote, as someone noted above, is from the Tick cartoon. In particular, it's from an episode where they're spoofing--- argh! The great big purple guy with a Kirby Head---- gah! I don't know enough about comics.... Anyway, he eats planets and things. This episode featured a spoof of him. The Tick was serving as a miniscule agent of hygiene for the big guy, talking about earth... The big guy decides he wants to eat earth...

"You can't destroy the earth! It's where I keep all my stuff!"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[VegasNomad]

I seem to recall that since you can't get "cover" from an AOE attack...just do enough to destroy each individual hex...right? So since stone is 5 energy/10 physical defense plus 19 body you just need to do enough body to destroy that and megascale it enough to cover the earth...mebbe.

[bigbywolfe]

I seem to recall that since you can't get "cover" from an AOE attack...just do enough to destroy each individual hex...right? So since stone is 5 energy/10 physical defense plus 19 body you just need to do enough body to destroy that and megascale it enough to cover the earth...mebbe.
This is from the FAQ:


If a character uses an Area Of Effect attack against a target larger than one hex (or even larger than the Area Of Effect itself) — such as an aircraft carrier, a giant, a starship, a building, or a dragon — does the damage apply per hex, or just one time?

If you use an Area Of Effect attack on an object or creature larger than one hex, or larger than the Area Of Effect itself, you just apply the damage once (using Hit Locations if applicable). You do not get to apply the damage multiple times, “per hex” or otherwise. You can reflect the nature of the attack in the description of the damage it causes and other secondary effects, if you like (“Don’t walk too near the edge of the bomb damage, Bob -- the deck’s fragile there, and you could fall in!”).
Which makes me question needing AoE at all ifyou look at a planet as a single thing (as opposed to looking at it as billions of hexes of rock all individually destructable).

[Kristopher]

This is from the FAQ:

Which makes me question needing AoE at all ifyou look at a planet as a single thing (as opposed to looking at it as billions of hexes of rock all individually destructable).

Agreed.

Furthermore, without the AoE, you don't get to cheap out on the attack, and you need an attack that actually does enough damage to deal with all the BODY a planet has.

And if a person can have up to 20 BODY, a planet the size of Earth does not have only 80-some, or 100-some.

[dmjalund]

I have always been of the opinion that area affect attacks should have increased (rather than multiple) effect on larger characters, effectively +2dc per x8 mass (but only if the original attack breaches the defense of the character).

this would obviously have an upper limit if the target is larger than the Area affected.

the corollary would be that a small person/object would suffer less damage from area affect attacks (without being less penetrating)

[SteveZilla]

Destroy the Earth?!? :shock:

But... but... I live there!!! :cry:

Scooped. :(

[SteveZilla]

This brings to mind one of my pet peeves with the movie Star Wars. The Death Star fires its big gun at a planet and the planet explodes. Why is it that the giant plasma bolt doesn't just punch a hole through the planet? Granted that would cause lots of destruction and may set off earthquakes and volcanos and atmospheric catastrophes that would ruin the place for the inhabitants, but it isn't like the core of the planet is made of dynamite. If I had to design a weapon to reduce a planet to gravel in Hero terms, I would require a massive AoE (Megascaled of course) to make it hit the whole planet instead of just buying it as a high damage RKA.

Yeah, but that starts getting into the concept that "Growth is a 'defense'" -- in that if you have enough Growth, you become "immune" to some effects.

Suppose instead of a simple (but gigantic) laser, or plasma bolt, it was a beam that suppressed the Strong Nuclear Force in, say, materials denser than Iron -- cauing them to instantly undergo Fission? What with the amount of Iron & heavier Elements in our core, making them all split would IMO blow up the whole planet.

Now from a military point of view, destroying a planet doesn't necessarily mean reducing it to gravel, it just means killing everything there, so the Death Star would have been just fine blasting holes in things. Of course that isn't as cinematic, which is obviously what really counts.[/QUOTE]

They would have been better with a planet-wide Neutron Beam. Kill the people, but not the Real Estate. :eg:

[Sean Waters]

Probably the best way to destroy a planet - certainly one of the cheapest - would be an extreme Transform (planet to expanding dust cloud) with constant and megascale on the range so you can hit the whole thing. Might take half an hour to get up the required Body damage but most planets have no power defence and Transform is cumulative.

Even at SPD 2, a 1d6 Transform is 35 Body per minute, or about 350 Body in 10 minutes.

I like SteveZilla's explanation for how it might work too :thumbup: He's obviously thought about this a lot....

Technically you are not using Transform to kill any people, you're just changing what they are standing on :)

[Sean Waters]

Actually this would probably do to destroy a planet, assuming you have the ten minutes or so...

Planet Killer: Severe Transform 1d6 (Planet to dust cloud), Line Of Sight (+1/2) (22 Active Points)

[SteveZilla]

Especially if you use it in (IIRC) The Speed Zone from TUS. :fear:

[Naanomi]

most planets have no power defense

Hit the planet with that, wait to see what is left, go mine the magical minerals with Power Defense. Planetary strip mining made easy

[SteveZilla]

Hit the planet with that, wait to see what is left, go mine the magical minerals with Power Defense. Planetary strip mining made easy

You are evil! I like that! :D

[SSgt Baloo]

Hit the planet with that, wait to see what is left, go mine the magical minerals with Power Defense. Planetary strip mining made easy


Interstellar battlestation: 175,000,000,000 credits.

Planetary atmosphere and crust evaporator: 250,000,000,000 credits.

No pesky inhabitants to claim mineral rights: Priceless.

There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's OverlordCard.

[Cancer]

Actually, I would say that planets tend to have Power Defense (in addition to Force Field) against certain types of special effects. If there's a planetary magnetic field, then there's a number of kinds of electromagnetic attacks that are stood off by the geomagnetic field. An unshielded human would succumb to solar radiation over the course of months (remember, low Earth orbit is within that geomagnetic field), so it's certainly able to stand off long-duration Continuous attacks of that class.

[Sean Waters]

Actually, I would say that planets tend to have Power Defense (in addition to Force Field) against certain types of special effects. If there's a planetary magnetic field, then there's a number of kinds of electromagnetic attacks that are stood off by the geomagnetic field. An unshielded human would succumb to solar radiation over the course of months (remember, low Earth orbit is within that geomagnetic field), so it's certainly able to stand off long-duration Continuous attacks of that class.


Good thinking, but two small points:

1. There's nothing to stop you - except for an innate sense of self preservation - from destroying the planet whilst standing on it.

2. NND only adds 10 active points (and AVAD in 6e only adds 5!) - still horribly cheap!

[The Rose]

How about "Images" (Laser beam), with "OAF, Immobile, Expendable" (Planet of choice)? I'm pretty sure that will only cost a point or two at most.

La Rose.

[Sean Waters]

How about "Images" (Laser beam), with "OAF, Immobile, Expendable" (Planet of choice)? I'm pretty sure that will only cost a point or two at most.

La Rose.

The old 'Light' spell?

Just because a focus is expendable does not mean it is destroyed - just that it can not be used as a focus again.

Anyway, I think we all know what would happen if that one appeared on a character sheet.

[SteveZilla]

Words would fail me if someone seriously handed me a character sheet with something like that. So I'd likely just turn and stick it into my handy confetti maker.

[The Rose]

The old 'Light' spell?

Just because a focus is expendable does not mean it is destroyed - just that it can not be used as a focus again.

Anyway, I think we all know what would happen if that one appeared on a character sheet.

I didn't think the purpose was to create a PC power. I'm not inclined to allow anyone to have a power (of any build design) that could destroy the world (much less designed to do so). I was just submitting a power concept that would be super cheep since that seemed to be the current aim.

La Rose.

[Sean Waters]

I didn't think the purpose was to create a PC power. I'm not inclined to allow anyone to have a power (of any build design) that could destroy the world (much less designed to do so). I was just submitting a power concept that would be super cheep since that seemed to be the current aim.

La Rose.

I posted the Body Drain LOS power precisely because it is the sort of power that might easily - and innocuously - make its way onto a character sheet - and could easily destroy a planet, by the normal rules of the game (OK maybe the dust clouds would block LOS - buy yourself a new sense and you are golden though).

Hero does not really address scale properly: exponential or arithmetic progression? You could decide that (if we still used hexes) a hex of dirt is 16 Body and you need to destroy all the hexes of dirt to destroy a planet - that would put the Body of a planet in the millions or billions of Body, or possibly even the gazillions.

It also means that, to all intents and purposes, you've decided nothing can destroy a planet because nothing can ever do that much damage on a point budget that you might realistically see.

Arguably: so what? Planet Killers are only ever plot devices anyway - no need to model them.

Good argument - but then you run the risk of alienating the Hero audience - the very people who want to know how much Body a planet has because they want to be able to work out how many points the Death Star costs to build.

[THE_TRUTH]

You are evil! I like that! :D
in hero system 5th e in makes it very clear that every hex of dirt has 10 body thus sectionalizing planets in nature. Thus an area affect would affect each hex indivually. That being said earth would in theory have billions of body. Explaining why it does not explode everytime superman power supers get knocked into the planet. if some cause 90 body (9 hexes of dirt completely destroyed) in china and creates a gigantic crator it would have no effect on the north american land mass. so for planets to be destroyed you would need massive area that affects each section individually or one big attack without area causing about 10,000,000,000 body in one blow.

[SteveZilla]

Maybe all we need is a google-d6 attack, and use the extra dice to spread to "fill all the hexes"?

[SSgt Baloo]

in hero system 5th e in makes it very clear that every hex of dirt has 10 body thus sectionalizing planets in nature.

Now that we know that, how many hexes does the Earth have in volume, and since the mantle is molten/semi-fluid rock, not just dirt, does it have a defense and what is it's body (per hex)? Once the mantle is taken care of, the core is made of molten metal does each hex of the core have more body? what about defense?

[The Rose]

Now that we know that, how many hexes does the Earth have in volume, and since the mantle is molten/semi-fluid rock, not just dirt, does it have a defense and what is it's body (per hex)? Once the mantle is taken care of, the core is made of molten metal does each hex of the core have more body? what about defense?

You all have it wrong ;).

If one is super worried about it and want a simplistic way to reason through it. Take the core (define that as you choose) and determine what a mass of its material's body would be by rough estimate to like material we have data for. Then take the number of hexes from that out to the edge of the crust and determine what seems like an applicably similar material we have a known stat for. Then scale out the Def of it for the total length to the core. It's arbitrary but it seems like a reasonable way to apply basic rules.

La Rose.

[Naanomi]

One doesn't need to obliterate the whole planet to destroy it though.... one only needs to punch a sizable hole in it and let gravitation and collapsing plates/fluids do the rest right?

[SSgt Baloo]

One doesn't need to obliterate the whole planet to destroy it though.... one only needs to punch a sizable hole in it and let gravitation and collapsing plates/fluids do the rest right?

I think that you would create some havoc on the surface, depending upon the size of the hole you blasted in the planet, but it would have to be a very BIG hole to assure the total destruction of life on the planet.

[Matt the Bruins]

I don't know, I'm thinking if you fire any sort of beam powerful enough to completely penetrate a planet (assuming it's not something like a neutrino stream or a pico-meter radius laser that interacts with almost no matter on its way through), a lot of its energy is going to be spent vaporizing material from the contact point inward. Cubic miles of superheated vaporized rock venting back up the path of least resistance sure isn't going to be good for the ecosystem, even if it doesn't actually have too pronounced an effect on the overall structure of the planet.

[Ice9]

Well, killing all life on a planet is a heck of lot easier than destroying it. If you actually want to destroy it, you need to fracture it with considerable force, or else the fragments will just re-collapse together from their own gravity.
If you have access to methods other than brute force, then drilling a narrow hole into the core and opening a gateway to a nearby star inside it might work, and is probably cheaper in terms of points.

[SSgt Baloo]

I don't know, I'm thinking if you fire any sort of beam powerful enough to completely penetrate a planet (assuming it's not something like a neutrino stream or a pico-meter radius laser that interacts with almost no matter on its way through), a lot of its energy is going to be spent vaporizing material from the contact point inward. Cubic miles of superheated vaporized rock venting back up the path of least resistance sure isn't going to be good for the ecosystem, even if it doesn't actually have too pronounced an effect on the overall structure of the planet.

You have a point! Repped.

[magicalme]

Well, killing all life on a planet is a heck of lot easier than destroying it. If you actually want to destroy it, you need to fracture it with considerable force, or else the fragments will just re-collapse together from their own gravity.
If you have access to methods other than brute force, then drilling a narrow hole into the core and opening a gateway to a nearby star inside it might work, and is probably cheaper in terms of points.
This seems like the most creative and the most explosive way to take care of a pesky planet. Of course I would love to see some super with about 550 strength and flight just push the planet into the nearest sun. If it were a planet without supers you would get to watch them panic and enjoy their last moments.

[SteveZilla]

One doesn't need to obliterate the whole planet to destroy it though.... one only needs to punch a sizable hole in it and let gravitation and collapsing plates/fluids do the rest right?

That would work after a while ... but I'm in a hurry. :eg:


If you have access to methods other than brute force, then drilling a narrow hole into the core and opening a gateway to a nearby star inside it might work, and is probably cheaper in terms of points.

I'm pretty sure that if you can open a gateway (in)to a nearby star, you can just skip the whole "drilling a narrow hole into the core" bit.

[SteveZilla]

This seems like the most creative and the most explosive way to take care of a pesky planet. Of course I would love to see some super with about 550 strength and flight just push the planet into the nearest sun. If it were a planet without supers you would get to watch them panic and enjoy their last moments.

... Or not as they pull out their super-advanced weaponry and shoot that pesky super full of (black) holes.

[Alcamtar]

Both fall well short of the 177 BODY needed to destroy the Earth (from Star HERO).

Dr. Destruction (175 pts)
168 pts: 59d6 RKA [885 AP], one charge (-2), OAF gizmo (-1), only vs planets (-1), gesture "give the planet the finger" (-1/4)
7 pts: +50 END (allowing for normal characteristic maxima)

-25 pts: Suicidal (all the time, slight)
-25 pts: Berserk whenever anyone questions him (very common, 11-, 11-)

Makes for a very short game!