The best type of Superhero Wars

[CoreBrute]

Over the course of various comic books I've noticed how epic they get when there is a war involved (Secret Invasion, Civil War, Kingdom Come) and how these are some of the most popular/read comic books. So I wondered which of these wars are most fun incorporating into an RPG game?

Here is a list of some of the wars I can think of, the rest will be in Others.

Superheroes vs Aliens
Whether a full on invasion like DC's Invasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion!_%28DC_Comics%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion%21_%28DC_Comics%29)) or one of subtle infiltration like Marvel's Secret Invasion, the idea of super humans fighting dangerous aliens is a modern interpretation of the Golden Age setting where Allied heroes would fight inhuman Nazis, but more politically correct.

An alien invasion also includes an earthborn character leading a group of aliens to invade Earth (World War Hulk was led by The Hulk, but comprised mostly of aliens). Or a variation would be Superhumans vs Extradimensional beings, Allowing for a war against an enemy who uses Spells and enchantments vs humanity and the meta-humans.

Superhero vs Supervillains
While I can't think of an actual example or series showcasing an actual war, Mark Millar's Wanted series deals with the aftermath of such a war with super villains winning and the characters from the Justice League series The Justice Lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Lords) are super heroes who have eliminated all crime on the planet.

Would a war against a united super villains be the most interesting of all these wars? And would the heroes even be aligned, or divided into factions of the Anti-heroes and those with lofty ideals of justice? And how would those ideals fare in this war with the most depraved creatures on the planet?

Superhero vs Superhero
Because of differing political opinions/obligations or morality heroes are forced to combat other superheroes and the public becomes divided among those they support. This usually shows most division in comic fans' opinions and will divide some groups. But that's half the fun isn't it?

Example of political divisions would be if heroes would have to fight another countries' heroes because their countries' have gone to war. Both sides heroes are heroic but their patriotism stops them from seeing this.

Another would be laws that divided heroes on policies like secret identities, the most famous example being Marvel's Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_%28comics%29) and can include many shifting of sides.

Finally there is the idea of modern dark nand edgy heroes versus the noble colorful Silver Age heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_%28comics)) ) with the Iron Age heroes being more down to earth and using tactics their Silver Age counterparts would never dare consider, the fate of heroics could change forever.

Superheroes vs Non-superpowered
A war against the non-powered would be incredibly epic; the non powered have superior numbers, techonology and batman against the much fewer but godlike superhumans who want to protect 'mortals' from their own weaknesses. An example of such an event is possibly The Authority taking over the US Government (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27Etat_%28comics%29).

Other
Any other ideas you have about a war involving super humans that you think would be better then the ones I've listed, please post them and explain the concept.

[Cygnia]

I went with Other mainly because I like a combination of all of them. A subset of your superheroes vs non-superpowered might be the regular mundanes who fear and distrust those with powers ala X-Men or the JLU cartoon. They don't just have tech & numbers...they have the political or lobbyist power to make life hell as well for those with abilities.

[lemming]

Superhero vs Supervillains
While I can't think of an actual example or series showcasing an actual war, Alan Moore's Wanted series deals with the aftermath of such a war with super villains winning and the characters from the Justice League series The Justice Lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Lords) are super heroes who have eliminated all crime on the planet.

Quick nitpick: Mark Millar did Wanted, not Alan Moore.

In one campaign, we thought about taking over the world, but decided against it for numerous reasons though later on in a dimensional war which we managed to stalemate, we wound up sharing "ownership" with a villain group for when we sent representatives to the governing body.

[RexMundi]

Superhero's....Vs..........Their SIDEKICKS.

~Rex

[CrosshairCollie]

Superheroes vs Supervillains. Really ... that's who's supposed to be fighting!

[megaplayboy]

Superheroes v. Supervillains is probably the best for an RPG--if you want an "epic war", then you have something akin to Acts of Vengeance, the Legion of Doom, Masters of Evil or whatever your campaign equivalent might be, band together to try to take out the hero teams one at a time.
Superheroes vs. Invaders(alien, x-dimensional, or whomever) is also good. That probably has the most "warlike" feel to it.
Superheroes vs. non-supers(mutant hunters? the military's new "special force"? VIPER?) might work, but after a while the non-super side starts looking more and more "super" as all kinds of special weapons are brought to bear.
Superheroes vs. superheroes--unless it's a "heroes of two worlds at cross purposes" kind of thing, I think this is very hard to pull off well, and not engender disenchantment.

[Lawnmower Boy]

I'm a real fan of putting superheroes in the kind of alternative environments (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/tunnelwo.htm) that only comics can really pull off, so I ought to have been the world's biggest "Secret Wars" fan. The idea of large groups of superheroes interacting in unique ways, reacting to a strange world...
If only it hadn't been so stupid.
But, anyway, take your group of superheroes and supervillains, put themsomewhere that really lets the artist go all out, add a McGuffin that will either save Aunt May or give the villains Ultimate Power, and watch the fun. It's a formula that I wouldn't mind seeing used for more than just a superpowers war. Anyone else ever wanted to run a group of superheroes through the Underdark? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Spiders)
(To really go off topic, my team: Macahuitl, Corrente, Nightwind, Witchcraft, Sister Rain.)

[GoldenAge]

It is important to remember that you're dealing with SUPER + HEROES. They will (or should) inherently choose to do the right thing while showcasing the incredible powers that set them apart from the common man. Thus, it can be difficult to force superhero v. superhero battles or superhero v. non-superheroes. Though these scenarios can be interesting they rarely showcase EVERYTHING, from intellect to abilities, that the superheroes can bring to bear.

That leaves the Invasion and Supervillain scenarios...

While the Invasion scenario can succeed in tapping the hero's potential and be loads of fun (we recently finished an Invasion scenario in Epic City - Check it out at the link below) its the Supervillains that really bring out the true hero.

Supervillains are a part of the hero's world. They're the counterbalance to the hero; the Yin to their Yang. They can have a indefinite presence in an ongoing campaign and may well be deeply entwined with the heroes themselves. When the villains go to war THEY BRING THEIR BAGGAGE ALONG! No invading force will be able to call Captain Adventure by his long abandoned real name, Mortimer Azhat, just to get a rise. No invader will have confidential knowledge of the city, or a hero's family, or their intimate fears... AND the raw power to strike fear into the hero's heart.

If you put in the work and drill down into the deep potential of recurring villains and their relationships with the heroes, you can create a war to end all wars!

[Matt Holck]

Superheroes vs. superheroes--unless it's a "heroes of two worlds at cross purposes" kind of thing, I think this is very hard to pull off well, and not engender disenchantment.

"5. Comrade, I did not want to kill you. . . . But you were only an idea to me before, an abstraction that lived in my mind and called forth its appropriate response. . . . I thought of your hand-grenades, of your bayonet, of your rifle; now I see your wife and your face and our fellowship. Forgive me, comrade. We always see it too late. Why do they never tell us that you are poor devils like us, that your mothers are just as anxious as ours, and that we have the same fear of death, and the same dying and the same agony—Forgive me, comrade; how could you be my enemy?"

All is Quiet on the Western Front

[kahuna's bro]

i voted other for aliens/magic invaders,supervilians andnon supers [cobra,viper]
on the whole i agree with crosshair collie on this topic

[Balabanto]

I voted for Superheroes vs. Superheroes. I know you're all thinking, Hey Balabanto, you're ~!@#$!ing nuts. But let's look at the bare bones facts of the matter.

1) Superheroes vs. Aliens: In Superhero Worlds, Alien Invasions occur every year. They happen so often that they become boring. I've seen so many alien invasions in comics over the course of my life that they have literally lost their meaning. In a roleplaying sense, this is "Man vs. That Which is Other." And that's okay, it just produces limited roleplay. You beat up the aliens, and you go home.

2) Superheroes vs. Supervillains: This has also been done over and over again. The same principle applies to all the villains showing up as a massive gang and fighting all the heroes. This happens for copyright reasons, and not really because the story is good. Unless the adventure is entirely centered around grudges, and heroes getting even with their personal hunteds, this is not a story that has a lot of roleplaying potential either. This is "Man vs. Man" but most of the conflicts are only physical.

3) Superheroes versus Massive Organizations. This can be interesting if the massive organization has a score to settle with the heroes, but the thing is, at the end, cutting off the head of the hydra is virtually meaningless, the heroes have stopped the villains plan, as they always do, but there are no after the fact consequences that continue to promote roleplay other than the usual new technologies, cat out of the bag stuff.

4) Superheroes vs. Superheroes: The reason why I feel this is the best choice is quite simple. Character development. The best conflicts are not man vs. man, or man vs. machine, or man vs. that which is not man. The best conflicts as far as storytelling and roleplaying are concerned are almost always man vs. himself. Eleven years of Super Squad America at Gencon and Origins prove this. (Thank you, Rod) Beating up the villains is always satisfying, but if you're looking for the best roleplaying, this scenario has something more. The problem is it's also the most delicate to balance. I love the idea that superheroes will fight and the world will never be the same.

The nice thing is there are three ways to do this.

1) The war occurred in the not too distant past, and everyone is picking up the pieces. This can be a great campaign start for sophisticated and enhanced players.

2) The war is about to occur. Choose sides and see what happens.

3) In a long standing campaign, an event happens where the PC's decide this is going to happen. This is the hardest to run and adjucate. The world really will never be the same. You might not even have a campaign afterwards. But it could be very interesting.

[Pariah]

I voted for Superheroes vs. Aliens, simply because that was the basis for the last campaign I ran. It was a blast.

[RexMundi]

I still like the Superhero's vs Sidekicks angle myself. Some sort of poetic justice thing. Otherwise, I lean towards Hero vs Hero, especially in the context of Alternate Earths and the like, ESPECIALLY, when it's Great Golden Age Hero's, vs Upstart Iron Age punks that are ruining the world with their shades of gray.

~Rex...Alan Scott mops the Floor with Kyle Rainer ......The Invaders....Already pimp slapped the Avengers ......heh.

[kahuna's bro]

i still like the superhero's vs sidekicks angle myself. Some sort of poetic justice thing. Otherwise, i lean towards hero vs hero, especially in the context of alternate earths and the like, especially, when it's great golden age hero's, vs upstart iron age punks that are ruining the world with their shades of gray.

~rex...alan scott mops the floor with kyle rainer ......the invaders....already pimp slapped the avengers ......heh. hear hear

[megaplayboy]

There's always my "Warlords of Earth" idea...the most powerful megavillains and villain teams in the world (all the ones capable of cooperating towards a common goal) get together to wipe out their enemies and conquer the world. You can start a campaign either just before this starts happening, and gradually foreshadow what's coming, as prominent solo heroes get taken down, culminating in an NPC hero team the PCs have worked with before sending a distress call, as the heroes arrive to see villains who have never worked together before laying a beatdown. Or you can start after the fact, in a sort of post-apocalyptic setting, with the heroes being those who have just emerged into their abilities, or those who laid low and survived the great purge. Whole countries lay in ruins, and the villains have spread out and taken control of their own private fiefdoms--the heroes have to quietly do battle with the warlords' minions while building up towards taking down the big bosses.

[CrosshairCollie]

4) Superheroes vs. Superheroes: The reason why I feel this is the best choice is quite simple. Character development.

Unfortunately, as Civil War demonstrated, it can also result in some serious Character Derailment.

[megaplayboy]

Unfortunately, as Civil War demonstrated, it can also result in some serious Character Derailment.

Well, in an RPG context, that would be as though the guys who normally play Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic had to go out of town for a few weeks, so they handed the character sheets off to their ADD-afflicted little brothers.
Mayhem ensues.

[Cygnia]

Well, in an RPG context, that would be as though the guys who normally play Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic had to go out of town for a few weeks, so they handed the character sheets off to their ADD-afflicted little brothers.
Mayhem ensues.

Or you had a GM who encouraged player vs. player attacks but whined as soon as they started going after the GM's pet NPCs. :p

[DusterBoy]

I went for other, because there wasn't an "all of the above" option, 'cos if handled right, it's all good, baby.

(Mind you, if handled wrong. . . :fear:)

[torchwolf]

Over the course of various comic books I've noticed how epic they get when there is a war involved (Secret Invasion, Civil War, Kingdom Come) and how these are some of the most popular/read comic books. So I wondered which of these wars are most fun incorporating into an RPG game?

Here is a list of some of the wars I can think of, the rest will be in Others.
All in all, having a war in an RPG campaign is necessarily dependent on a few things in the campaign:
Tone and Realism: Depending on how gritty or four-color you want to run a war, it can have different consequences. If you run a somewhat gritty or semi-realistic campaign, the players would probably expect some lethal and/or lasting consequences on both campaign directions and environment ("But wasn't all of Indonesia destroyed? How come the world's manufacturing of computers aren't affected?").
Continuity: Obviously, this is connected to the above, but in case of a serial-type campaign, any consequences are pretty much deniable or easily glossed over ("OK, the rebuilding after the destruction of South America is now complete. Now, for this week's adventure, you receive a phone call to HQ about...").

Superheroes vs Aliens: This is easy to fit into any type of campaign.
Superheroes vs Supervillains: Basically an escalated normal situation for superheroes, so easily used.
Superheroes vs Superheroes: Apart from the classic "coincidental misunderstanding", this might have longer-lasting consequences on a campaign.
Superheroes vs Non-Superpowered: This is probably the hardest situation to use without affecting the campaign at least in some respects.

NOTE: If the campaign is ready for some revamping, having a war might fill that purpose; additionally, you may actually kill off a load of NPC heroes, villains and others you're tired of (or don't like), plus probably one or two popular but overused ones to make it seem more "real" in terms of consequences. This could be used for the opportunity to reexamine the views on killing in the campaign, and may lead to a renewal ofCode vs Killing, or a more vigilante mentality, depending on how you want it.

Superheroes vs Aliens
Whether a full on invasion like DC's Invasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion!_%28DC_Comics%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion%21_%28DC_Comics%29)) or one of subtle infiltration like Marvel's Secret Invasion, the idea of super humans fighting dangerous aliens is a modern interpretation of the Golden Age setting where Allied heroes would fight inhuman Nazis, but more politically correct.

An alien invasion also includes an earthborn character leading a group of aliens to invade Earth (World War Hulk was led by The Hulk, but comprised mostly of aliens). Or a variation would be Superhumans vs Extradimensional beings, Allowing for a war against an enemy who uses Spells and enchantments vs humanity and the meta-humans.
The classic traitor (who may turn out to be actually infiltrating the invaders, or reform and ally with the heroes) is an interesting element. The Silver Surfer might actually fit into this category if you view Galactus trying to eat Earth as an invasion (there doesn't have to be a particular number of invaders).
Another example of covert alien invasions would be the Dire Wraith war in the Marvel Universe.

A strong point for alien invasions is that in most campaigns the players can use full force against their opponents pretty much without restraint - unless there is a catch somewhere, like the aliens acting for a noble or at least sympathetic cause.

The bad thing is... how many time have you used this? Probably the players have read about it to exhaustion if you haven't run it to exhaustion. A limited invasion with a twist might work though; say, Skynet is sending hundreds of T-800s back in time to wipe out all superhumans so it can control the future. For a bigger twist, have some invaders from the past, working for a reasonable cause that requires they defeat the Superhumans of the present (maybe they require samples from modern superhuman DNA so they can include it in the genes of Homo Erectus, so that one day superhumans may walk the Earth...).

Invasions: Target Earth for Hero 4th Edition is a good guide on how to run such things.

Superhero vs Supervillains
While I can't think of an actual example or series showcasing an actual war, Mark Millar's Wanted series deals with the aftermath of such a war with super villains winning and the characters from the Justice League series The Justice Lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Lords) are super heroes who have eliminated all crime on the planet.

Would a war against a united super villains be the most interesting of all these wars? And would the heroes even be aligned, or divided into factions of the Anti-heroes and those with lofty ideals of justice? And how would those ideals fare in this war with the most depraved creatures on the planet?
There is of course also Secret Wars I & II.
Acts of Vengeance might have worked better (for me at least) if they hadn't let Magneto (concentration camp background) and Doctor Doom (gypsy heritage) ally with the Red Skull (fanatical nazi) and some other silly stuff.

It would be more interesting if there was an overall, reasonable cause for the conflict - if it is political/ideological (supervillains take over North Korea to force worldwide nuclear disarmament) it bears more weight than acting out simple grudges - OTOH if old grudges cause villains and/or heroes to make less than optimal choices, it adds to interest. Having the purpose of the war divide heroes by their beliefs and/or psychology can add to character development (if done carefully and not just generating angst and unhappiness in PCs), and crosses over with the Superheroes vs Superheroes type of war.

Superhero vs Superhero
Because of differing political opinions/obligations or morality heroes are forced to combat other superheroes and the public becomes divided among those they support. This usually shows most division in comic fans' opinions and will divide some groups. But that's half the fun isn't it?

Example of political divisions would be if heroes would have to fight another countries' heroes because their countries' have gone to war. Both sides heroes are heroic but their patriotism stops them from seeing this.

Another would be laws that divided heroes on policies like secret identities, the most famous example being Marvel's Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_%28comics%29) and can include many shifting of sides.

Finally there is the idea of modern dark nand edgy heroes versus the noble colorful Silver Age heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_%28comics)) ) with the Iron Age heroes being more down to earth and using tactics their Silver Age counterparts would never dare consider, the fate of heroics could change forever.
Any group of very powerful heroes might come to the "unavoidable" conclusion that they must take over the rulership of <city/region/nation/continent/Earth>, usually for well-intentioned (however weird) reasons, which would make the conflict somewhat similar to Superheroes vs Supervillains - it might vary whether the PCs are on the "good" or "bad" side on the public perception.

I feel the need to mention the Squadron Supreme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_Supreme and http://www.dragonhero.com/marvel/squadron-supreme.html) in this context.
Suppose the main heroes of the campaign world invents a behavior modification device - should it be used at all?

I agree with Balabanto on this - potentially the most interesting war, and I voted for this.
I'm not certain it will work in every campaign, though.

Superheroes vs Non-superpowered
A war against the non-powered would be incredibly epic; the non powered have superior numbers, techonology and batman against the much fewer but godlike superhumans who want to protect 'mortals' from their own weaknesses. An example of such an event is possibly The Authority taking over the US Government (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27Etat_%28comics%29).
This is tricky to run if you let it go so far as to become a war, without causing long-lasting mistrust in the campaign. If this is a secret war, between agents of a shady conspiracy or evil organization and the Superheroes, it takes on a form more similar to a recurring storyline or Hunted situation than an open war, which would need a reason why it doesn't escalate into almost nightmarish proportions.
Nightmares of Futures Past is a variant on how to end up in a future guerilla war unless the present is set to right (in this case, making people more accepting of mutants).

Other
Any other ideas you have about a war involving super humans that you think would be better then the ones I've listed, please post them and explain the concept.
A version of several aspects would be having the Superheroes acting as soldiers in an actual war between nations; time traveling to participate in a war which is historical (WWII, as in the game Godlike, for example), or takes place in the future (giving reason to attempt to prevent that war in the present).

[BobGreenwade]

For scripted stories I prefer heroes vs villains, but for a game I'd prefer the (slightly increased) flexibility of invaders.

[Deadborder]

To me, the best enmeies for Superheroes are Supervillains. But better then a Supervillain is a group of Supervillains; I love the villain team up thing, and often the "random" factor of villains who have nothing in common besides one guy they dislike working together can be quite anjoyable. A good villain team can be a "mirror"to our heroes, a diverse group thrown together for a common goal. (One of the few good things i got from Champions Online was the Nemesis Confrontation, where you end up with five purely random villains all woeking for the one mastermind)

But beyond that, I think the idea of the Army of Supervillains in an excellent one that could be used to create a long-term sotry. Start small; there are several vllains working together for no readily apprent reason. Then, as the heroes discover more and more, they find that what they're facing is a veritable army of the world's most dangerous men. Its also, to my mind, the most flexible concept.

[Balabanto]

To me, the best enmeies for Superheroes are Supervillains. But better then a Supervillain is a group of Supervillains; I love the villain team up thing, and often the "random" factor of villains who have nothing in common besides one guy they dislike working together can be quite anjoyable. A good villain team can be a "mirror"to our heroes, a diverse group thrown together for a common goal. (One of the few good things i got from Champions Online was the Nemesis Confrontation, where you end up with five purely random villains all woeking for the one mastermind)

But beyond that, I think the idea of the Army of Supervillains in an excellent one that could be used to create a long-term sotry. Start small; there are several vllains working together for no readily apprent reason. Then, as the heroes discover more and more, they find that what they're facing is a veritable army of the world's most dangerous men. Its also, to my mind, the most flexible concept.

But it's not. Because we've seen it all before. There is no way to do this story in a new way. It's all been done before. I've been reading comics a long time.

Avengers/Defenders War worked.

Civil War did not, but that was because the writers jumped the shark.

There's still new ground to sow here, because "What does it mean to be a superhero?" is always a tougher question than "How do we beat up the bad guys?"

The most dangerous opponent is not a man who will do anything to achieve his goals.

The most dangerous opponent is a man who believes he's RIGHT.

[GoldenAge]

The most dangerous opponent is a man who believes he's RIGHT.

Y'mean like Doom, Magneto, Thanos, Darkseid, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...???

Okay, here's my suggestion...

Your heroes are contacted by the local Feds (S.H.I.E.L.D/PRIMUS or whoever fills that role in your campaign)... They inform the heroes that (Dr. Destroyer/Doom/Magneto/Big Baddie) has threatened untold damage to the world if his demands are not met. The Feds are still awaiting further information but thought it best to make the heroes aware of the situation. The heroes go off to find the Big Baddie...

Little do the heroes know that Big Baddie is under the influence of interdimentional invaders from a NEGATIVE UNIVERSE who came through Big Baddie's own experimental Dimensional Warp Device (DWD)! When the heroes arrive to stomp the Big Baddie they encounter a resisting force of what seems to be friendly superheroes (actually villains from the negative universe - Negative Heroes) who surprise and attack our heroes. As if the first surprise isn't enough, our heroes are again staggered when they actually have to battle... THEMSELVES! (Negative evil versions with goatees, of course) :eg:

Reeling, our heroes barely escape with their lives.

All this time the Big Goodie (negative version of Big Baddie) has been trying to track down his villains (negative versions of the heroes). Finally he discovers their interdimensional plot of world domination and rushes to intercede. But Big Goodie is no dummy. He sneaks in and finds a caged and humiliated Big Baddie (negative version of himself). After a moment of consternation they BOTH agree to work together to defeat the interdimensional interlopers (for differing reasons, of course). Big Baddie and Big Goodie make their stealthy egress from Big Baddie's villain lair... However, Big Badie is no fool and sees promise in the negative hero's plan and schemes to betray his negative hero self. He secretly builds a coalition of villains that he believes will join him in the subjugation the negative world even while working with Big Goodie on plans to defeat the Negative Heroes... Whew, now it gets complicated... :think:

Our heroes, taken by surprise by the Negative Heroes are forced to retreat and reevaluate, unsure of what to do next while real heroes drop like flies around them as the Negative Heroes catch them unaware.

Word spreads throughout the underworld (as it is want to do) of the impending threat to the status quo. The local Maggia/Mofia/Crime Boss realizes that their profits and entire way of life is threatened by these new interlopers. Believing it best to stick with the devil you know, they contact the heroes and offer their considerable services to defeat the interdimensional threat (its their world too, y'know). Their backs against a wall, the heroes accept...

Word of this new alliance of enemies reaches Big Baddie (who hides the news from Big Goodie, of course). He uses this information to lead the heroes (and their uncomfortable allies) into a trap! Big Baddie uses extensive rescources to fool S.H.I.E.L.D/PRIMUS into believing that the real heroes are the bad guys (obviously their association with known mafia operatives is a dead giveaway). S.H.I.E.L.D/PRIMU rushes in blindly (as Feds often do) and the heroes are forced to battle alongside the mafia against their own government until all is sorted out!

Slowly, Big Baddie sees things turning his way...

Finally Big Baddie and Big Goodie believe they have a plan that will defeat the Negative Heroes. Utilizing their combined intellect they access Big Baddie's lair (now being utilized as Negative Hero Central [NHC]) and open the DWD. Unbeknownst to Big Goodie, Big Baddie is in the throes of fulfilling his master plan of usurping not one, but TWO worlds in one fell swoop!!!

Big Baddie secretly contacts the heroes and explains that he was overpowered, but now free. He explains his plan to the heroes to defeat the Negative Heroes and requests aid (of course he omits any mention of his own negative doppelganger). Big Baddie also readies his villain coalition for a surprise assault...

The Big Goodie/Big Baddie plan is unveiled and they attack the Negative Heroes doing considerable damage to the interdimensional invaders... But they're overwhelmed (as Big Baddie - not encumbered by HOPE like his double, knew they would be). Suddenly, in fly the REAL HEROES (per Big Baddie's plan). Prepared this time, they attack with all of their skill and hero determination. Their wave of heroism seems to be winning the day and they're impressed by the wholehearted assistance they're getting from Big Baddie... But wait... We know that that guy is actually Big Goodie and Big Baddie (who conveniently fell in combat just before the arrival of the heroes) has quietly joined his villain army in waiting outside the lair....

Just as it seems our heroes (beaten and bedraggled) have defeated the Negative Heroes and have turned to address Big Baddie (actually Big Goodie) in storm the the villain army lead by the actual Big Baddie!!! Our heroes seem doomed!!!

But this time it is Big Goodie who is not to be underestimated. Knowing himself intimately he suspected a doublecross from Big Baddie. Suddenly Big Goodie springs his own trap utilizing the DWD to transport in a small cadre of Negative Villains to oppose Big Baddies army of real villains!!!!

The ensuing battle is pure chaos!!! The fate of the world hangs in the balance!!! Who knows what will happen!!!!!!?????!!!!!!!


(Okay, that was stream of conscious... but I think it has everything Superheroes vs Aliens/Extradimensional/Magical Invaders - Superheroes vs Supervillains - Superheroes vs Superheroes - Superheroes vs Non-superpowered and a bit more!!! Its just a start. YOU fill in the details. :cheers:

[torchwolf]

The most dangerous opponent is not a man who will do anything to achieve his goals.

The most dangerous opponent is a man who believes he's RIGHT.

Sadly, any news broadcast or history book would agree with this. :(

The question is - what functions in a game does these conflicts fill? To apply screenwriter principles: what's the theme of this war? (If it doesn't have a theme, it may turn out to be more depressing than interesting in a game)

War vs Supervillains themes: "Right before Might"; "With Great Power..."; "Sins Of Their Fathers"; "The Price Of A Life"; etc. (these hold the potential to reaffirm and highlight a hero's motivations and personality by contrasting these to their nemesis').

War vs Superheroes themes: "Does End Justify Means?"; "Law Or Justice?"; "Tough Choice!"; "Pyrrhic Victories"; etc. (these can prove that there are particular reasons that the PCs are necessary heroes in the world by their very presence in it).

These are generally the most psychologically useful ones.


War vs Aliens themes are generally more simplistic - it's either "Us or Them" or "Saving The World" in most cases, unless some twists are included.

War vs Humans themes are either generally reactive themes like "Forgive Them, For They Know Not What They Do" (where the PCs assume they will eventually redeem themselves), or proactive ones like "I Am The Law" or "The Big Picture Outweighs The Petty Concerns Of Mortals" - these can turn very dark.

These two are generally suitable for more action-oriented adventures or mini-series, possibly campaigns.


War vs Others: I ran a theme in my campaign where there was a basic underlying conflict between Chaos (representing magic, randomness, disorder, individualism, etc.) and Order (representing technology, predictability, organization, collectivism, etc.). Both of these principles had good and bad sides like the capacity for both creation and destruction, and there were no distinct lines dividing these principles.
The way the PCs handled this was to attempt to plan ahead, and to focus on forging alliances on both sides of many fences (good guys, bad guys, and unknown quantities) in preparation for what may come. All this resulted in a number of time travel scenarios in order to get to the root of the problem (the PCs' intended solution was to attempt to achieve a balance rather than let either principle dominate). Unfortunately, a lot of moving and other IRL concerns put this campaign on indefinite hold.
(I was intending to let this theme culminate in 2012 but after that movie I might reconsider this.:rolleyes:)

That is one way of having a War vs Others - something other than individual opponents, like a force, principle, or other intangible.

[kahuna's bro]

But it's not. Because we've seen it all before. There is no way to do this story in a new way. It's all been done before. I've been reading comics a long time.

Avengers/Defenders War worked.

Civil War did not, but that was because the writers jumped the shark.

There's still new ground to sow here, because "What does it mean to be a superhero?" is always a tougher question than "How do we beat up the bad guys?"

The most dangerous opponent is not a man who will do anything to achieve his goals.

The most dangerous opponent is a man who believes he's RIGHT.

civil war jumped the shark by thinking the repulicans would win the election?

[Shadow Hawk]

civil war jumped the shark by thinking the repulicans would win the election?

While I'm sure people will have thier own ideas on the subject, for me civil war jumped the shark when, after Tony Stark was shown to have paid someone to try and kill him, to have bribed congressmen, to have violated the Constitution and generally been a dick, it was revealed that Captain America was in the wrong.

[Clonus]

Zombie Apocalypses! All the cool kids are doin' em!

[DusterBoy]

Zombies aren't fit opponents for superheroes.

The people who create zombies on the other hand. . . .

[CoreBrute]

Zombies aren't fit opponents for superheroes.



Tell that to the creators of Blackest Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_night) and Marvel Zombies. They showed zombie super heroes/villains are just as dangerous a threat as an alien invasion. Maybe not as healthy but still.


There's always my "Warlords of Earth" idea...the most powerful megavillains and villain teams in the world (all the ones capable of cooperating towards a common goal) get together to wipe out their enemies and conquer the world. You can start a campaign either just before this starts happening, and gradually foreshadow what's coming, as prominent solo heroes get taken down, culminating in an NPC hero team the PCs have worked with before sending a distress call, as the heroes arrive to see villains who have never worked together before laying a beatdown. Or you can start after the fact, in a sort of post-apocalyptic setting, with the heroes being those who have just emerged into their abilities, or those who laid low and survived the great purge. Whole countries lay in ruins, and the villains have spread out and taken control of their own private fiefdoms--the heroes have to quietly do battle with the warlords' minions while building up towards taking down the big bosses.

Sort of like my idea (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75523-The-Twelve-most-Wanted?p=1907993#post1907993) of twelve super villeains rulling a world, or the comic book series Wanted. That sounds like fun.

[steamteck]

[QUOTE=CoreBrute;1953966]Tell that to the creators of Blackest Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_night) and Marvel Zombies. They showed zombie super heroes/villains are just as dangerous a threat as an alien invasion. Maybe not as healthy but still.


Gladly. Marvel zombies just didn't even begin to understand the advantages of the heroes involved and infinately uber handwaved the zombies.


Blackest night was better done in some ways but is too me at least still aesthetically an abomination.

[Clonus]

Zombie apocalypses don't have to involve turning people into corpses. Any infectious major personality alteration that leads to conflict is a zombie apocalypse.

[fbdaury]

I like heroes vs heroes as an idea if pulled off correctly. You forgot a classsic example of superhumans vs humans- the Squadron Supreme series where they took over their worl to save it, which then led to the heroes vs heroes battle...

[Narratio]

I picked 1) Superheroes against Alien invaders. BUT it's not quite right.

I ran a Champs RPG for many years, but I was being assigned to a job in Saudi (this is back in '85) so I decided to close the game down with a blast. I ran an "Alien Invaders vs Earth" and now it's not just Superheroes doing most of the fighting, it's the Supervillains as well. It's now Defenders of Humanity vs Everybody else.

So we had 4 sessions where each player had thier own character and one of the badguys. We did knock down drag out battles between earths defenders and the invading hordes. Yowzah!

As the players were covering a goodie and a baddie at the same time we had heroic life saving acts going in both directions as bad guys saved good guys, both saved civilians from ravening alien hordes, SWAT teams and military supported villains in thier fight... and we had deaths. Real game deaths and long term wounding, but Oh... the glory. I played every emotional string there was and the players rose to it. The bad guy (who had been a battered, abused orphan (making him the bad guy he was) dies protecting the police evacuation of an orphange. The honorable alien who had been abused by humanity has humans dying to protect him, so he has to do the same in a suicide charge. We had a night of Custers Stand / Roarkes Drift that was so good there was still beer left at the end of the evening.

The final night saw a battered, weakened but oh so determined group of characters (and thier players) striking back at the Eeeeeevil God King in his otherworld palace. This was a "Nobody gets out of here alive" event. The tension and feelings were amazing as everybody PLAYED. The die rolls didn't matter too much, the actions and chat were what it was all about. It was a great night. And the survivors, some did get home, gave up thier enmities and joined together to form a new team. I went off to to permanent overseas construction assignments.

So I vote for Heroes AND Villains united against Aliens. If the aliens are brain eating, blood sucking, parasitic egg layers, with high tech blasters AND claws, all the better!