How do you build a vampire template in 6E?

[PamelaIsley]

Vampires have a ton of powers, even if you use the more limited versions found in something like Twilight rather than the full blown, DnD-style vampire.

I was looking to create a vampire using the 6E rules, but the same power that stumped me in M&M brought me to halt: the ability to transform other characters into a vampire.

Has anyone attempted to build this power in the past?

Has anyone built a full-blown vampire template for this system?

If not, I will take a shot at it and post it here, but I have to imagine someone with more knowledge has beaten me to this.

[megaplayboy]

Well, Hero has this nifty little power named Transform--optimally this would be a Severe Transform(human to bloodsucker), linked to HKA, and the net "new vampire" package cost would have to be 30 points or less.
Everything else is pretty straightforward--Enhanced STR/DEX/CON, Resistant Protection, not vs. wooden stakes or silvered or enchanted weapons, nightvision and the aforementioned KA/Transform--the transform is probably optional and doesn't have to be used every time the KA is used. More powerful/older vampires may have a whole bunch of additional abilities, but your basic FOTG(Fresh Out The Grave) vamp probably is just a stronger, faster, tougher version of their human self, with bullet-resistant skin and a nifty but infectious blood disorder.

[PamelaIsley]

Structuring the Transform is not as easy as that.

How do you heal back? You shouldn't really ever heal back, barring some kind of divine or magical miracle.

A Vampire package is never going to cost less than 30 points, unless it is extremely stripped down.

[megaplayboy]

Well, keep in mind, if all new vamps have to take 40-50 points in complications (Physical Complication: Vampire, plus a vulnerability or susceptibility, plus maybe a compulsion to feed/dependence), then the total points you could add would be in the ballpark of 70-80+ points, which would turn a 25 point normal into a 100 point character.

[Panpiper]

Here is a vampire package deal I just built. http://www.herogames.com/hdPackageDeals.htm?genre=Horror+Hero&ruleset=6E

I avoided the 'heal back' problem by simply stating that it does not heal back. It is the GM's prerogative to change the rules if such a change is warranted for their game.

This is a classic vampire package. It will turn a zero point normal into a 250 point vampire with exactly 250 points in extra complications to match. So it can be applied to any existing character. This vampire however is utterly 'Evil' and if a player gets transformed, it's create a new character time. The vampire has a transforming attack where feeding the victim their own blood they are able to turn a victim into another vampire, identical to the victim's previous stats/skills but with the package added. It has the advantage of 'partial' to simulate the ability to give a little bit of blood to create a 'ghoul' servant that has some vampire like attributes, but is not a full vampire. This is not a 'Buffy' vampire where they conveniently turn to dust, but a more traditional sort where you need to keep them staked or bury their head separately from their body to keep them 'dead'.

STR +10pts
CON +5pts
BODY +3pts
PRE +5pts
PD +5pts
SPD +10pts
REC +4pts
END +2pts
STUN +5pts
RUN +5pts
LEAP +2pts
OCV +10pts
DCV +10pts

7 Vampire Blood Drinking: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (1 1/2d6 w/STR), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (17 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Must have the target in a grab; -1 1/2)

15 "Sire Vampire (blood feeding)": Severe Transform 1d6 (Living host into Vampire, Does not heal back), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Partial Transform (+1/2), Constant (+1/2) (37 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Target must either be helpless (IE on the verge of death) or willing; -1 1/2)

41 Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Inherent (+1/4) (51 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Does not work while staked through the heart or head missing (known to vampire hunters).; -1/4)

24 Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Does not work versus Wooden Killing Attacks (known to vampire hunters); -1/4)

2 "Minor Damage has no effect": Resistant Protection (2 PD) (3 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Does not work versus Wooden Killing Attacks (known to vampire hunters); -1/4)

29 Life Support (Immunity All terrestrial poisons; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases; Longevity: Immortal; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Self-Contained Breathing)

40 Wolf, Bat and Mist: Multiform (150 Character Points in the most expensive form) (x4 Number Of Forms)

5 Nightvision

3 +1 PER with all Sense Groups

8 Penalty Skill Levels: +8 vs. 'Placed Shot' to the neck (head) with Bite. To offset a specific negative OCV modifier with any single attack


Total Character Cost: 250

Pts. Disadvantage
10 Distinctive Features: Vampire (Not Concealable; Extreme Reaction; Detectable Only By Technology Or Major Effort; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
15 Distinctive Features: Does not cast a reflection (Easily Concealed; Extreme Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
5 Negative Reputation: , Infrequently (Extreme; Known Only To A Small Group)
20 Psychological Complication: Utterly Alien Moral Compass (Human Sociopath) (Very Common; Strong)
15 Psychological Complication: Thinks of humans as food (Very Common; Moderate)
10 Psychological Complication: Aversion to holy symbols (Uncommon; Strong)
15 Psychological Complication: Cannot cross running water (Common; Strong)
25 Physical Complication: Cannot enter a home uninvited (Frequently; Fully Impairing)
10 Hunted: Vampire Hunters Infrequently (As Pow; Harshly Punish)
5 Dependence: Blood Weakness: -3 To Characteristic Rolls and related rolls per time increment (Difficult To Obtain; 1 Day; Addiction)
40 Susceptibility: Direct Sunlight (1D6 No Defense Killing Attack) 3d6 damage per Segment (Very Common)
15 Susceptibility: Holy Water 3d6 damage Instant (Uncommon)
15 Susceptibility: Garlic 3d6 damage per Minute (Uncommon)
20 Social Complication: Cannot engage in activities that might expose to sunlight Frequently, Severe
10 Vulnerability: 2 x Effect Wooden Killing Attacks (Uncommon)
20 Vulnerability: 2 x Effect Fire (Common)
Disadvantage Points: 250

[PamelaIsley]

Well, you hand waved the heal problem that held me up.

Very impressive though in all other ways.

[Panpiper]

I just modded my vampire package a bit to create a version that allowed the creation of 'ghoul' partial transforms. The transform is no longer linked to the blood drain, but requires 'feeding' blood to the victim, so 'accidental' transforms are no longer possible.

[PamelaIsley]

I preferred the other version.

I had in mind more of the Twilight vampire than the drink my blood anti-Christ type.

[Matt the Bruins]

I really like the way the vampire is built in Lucha Libre Hero, though I'd tweak it with a 20 or so STR to be more traditional, and substitute Damage Reduction for the Immune to Bullets power.

[Panpiper]

I've not read the Twilight books, but the new version does not create 'accidental' vampires. Vampire creation must now be deliberate, and the ghoul thing is much more in keeping with the traditional vampire mythology. Of course there is nothing to say that a vampire 'has' to use that ability. The previous version was identical except for the chance of accidentally creating vampires and the purposeful doing so not being well defined. In my opinion, the previous version was 'more' evil.

By the way, if you want to simulate the less evil Twilight versions, you would probably want to replace the overtly evil psych complications of "Utterly Alien Moral Compass (Human Sociopath)" and "Thinks of humans as food" with a couple of others like 'secret identity', 'loyal to vampire hierarchy', 'watched by vampire hierarchy', etc..

[PamelaIsley]

I wasn't saying your take was wrong, just that I will have to rework parts of it for what I had in mind. I'm not fond of the idea of a victim drinking the vampire's blood to become a vampire. Accidental vampires are fine with me.

Twilight's version is probably much less powerful in a lot of ways.

[Lucius]

Structuring the Transform is not as easy as that.

How do you heal back? You shouldn't really ever heal back, barring some kind of divine or magical miracle.

A Vampire package is never going to cost less than 30 points, unless it is extremely stripped down.

A "true" transform like that - no going back ever - would be done by killing the victim, and creating a replacement via Summon or Duplication (can't recombine) or even simply with Follower.

Summon might work best if the elder vampire has a degree of control for a while, after which the new vampire has more latitude of choice.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks vampires are a pain in the neck

[Panpiper]

A "true" transform like that - no going back ever - would be done by killing the victim, and creating a replacement via Summon or Duplication (can't recombine) or even simply with Follower.
Well, in effect I did. The way I wrote it up was that the victim had to be on the verge of death in order for it to happen. For all intents the vampire 'has' killed the victim, and actually doing so at that point would as trivial as taking an extra swallow. Whether it is then a 'summorns' or a 'transform' depends solely on whether you care about points or not. If it was a summon, you would have to make it big enough to handle whatever character point cost creature was being summoned, and however big you made it, there would still be a point level that the vampire could not 'summon' and therefor convert, entirely not in keeping with the actual conception. And then there remains my personal aversion to using effects that bear no semblance to what the power is actually doing. The vampire is not 'killing' a victim, complete with inconvenient remains, and then turning around and 'summoning' a totally new creature that 'just happens' to have the original victims entire set of skills, memories, etc.. How would that summoned 'vampire' happen to know the secret passwords of the victim, the nuclear launch codes, whatever? That is in my opinion twisting the rules around far more than a simple GM ruling, that in the case of vampire transforms, there is no coming back short of powerful magic essentially reversing the transform.

[PamelaIsley]

I don't think summoning is a very good way to simulate this.

[Greywind]

Neither is Transform, but it can get the job done.

Any time a Vampire "reverts" it is usually core to a major quest.

[Panpiper]

Neither is Transform...
?!?!?!? Huh?

If this is not the right situation for a transform, then no situation is 'ever' right for a transform and transform should be removed from the game. We are trying to simulate an ability to 'transform' a non-vampire into a vampire. This is the very definition of a transform. The vampire has to reduce the victim to the point of death, exactly the logic in which transform was originally justified, that if you could 'kill' the character, you might as well be able to simply redefine the character.

[Greywind]

Transform implies inherently that healing is possible. Somethings just can't be healed.

[Panpiper]

Transform implies inherently that healing is possible. Somethings just can't be healed.
Well, if you don't want to accept that the GM can make such rulings in their own game, simply redefine the transform as taking place upon a 'dead' body just after it has been killed. As dead bodies don't heal, you don't have to worry about the transform healing either.

[Greywind]

"...and direct application of excessive handwavium solves all..."

How about something directly outside of game mechanics. Like a plot device...

[Lucius]

Well, in effect I did. The way I wrote it up was that the victim had to be on the verge of death in order for it to happen. For all intents the vampire 'has' killed the victim, and actually doing so at that point would as trivial as taking an extra swallow. Whether it is then a 'summorns' or a 'transform' depends solely on whether you care about points or not. If it was a summon, you would have to make it big enough to handle whatever character point cost creature was being summoned,


Unless the "Absolute Effect" rule is invoked. Although, granted, one could argue that's as much a "handwave" as simply ignoring the rule about Transforms needing a reversal condition.


and however big you made it, there would still be a point level that the vampire could not 'summon' and therefor convert, entirely not in keeping with the actual conception.

And even without such an "absolute effect" ruling, the vampire could still create another vampire out of a high-points character - it is simply that the new vampire will be of lower point value than the living character was.

And for many high point characters, I am sure many of their powers would be easy to justify being lost if the character turns undead - in fact, some things would be hard to justify keeping if one is undead.



And then there remains my personal aversion to using effects that bear no semblance to what the power is actually doing. The vampire is not 'killing' a victim, complete with inconvenient remains, and then turning around and 'summoning' a totally new creature

You've just pretty much described exactly what IS going on. Other than the part about turning around.

If I incinerate a character, I don't kill the victim and then "turn around" and create a charred corpse. The act of creating the charred corpse is the act of killing the victim. The act of creating the new vampire is the act of killing the victim. It's just a form of murder that leaves behind an unusually active corpse. We're just talking about the best way to reflect how active that corpse is.

In other words, the new vampire is the "inconvenient remains."



that 'just happens' to have the original victims entire set of skills, memories, etc.. How would that summoned 'vampire' happen to know the secret passwords of the victim, the nuclear launch codes, whatever?


In exactly the same way that any other summoned being "happens" to know whatever that being should reasonably be expected to know.


That is in my opinion twisting the rules around far more than a simple GM ruling, that in the case of vampire transforms, there is no coming back short of powerful magic essentially reversing the transform.


I think Summon in this case fits the effect better than Transform, or at least as well. But if Transform is used, rather than saying "No way to change back" I'd suggest "anything that can restore life to the dead changes the victim back." Of course, that's assuming any such thing is remotely possible in the game world.

Lucius Alexander

Transform into Palindromedary

[megaplayboy]

Just define the heal-back/reversal requirement as "an extremely obscure magic ritual performed by a coven of white mages"--it will almost certainly never come up in game, and in the unfortunate circumstance that one's DNPC is transformed into a vampire, the heroes have an interesting quest on their hands.

[megaplayboy]

Also, in some vampire lore, if the "turning" master vampire is slain before the transform is fully complete, then the transform is reversed.

[Panpiper]

I appear to have omitted in my original post the 10 points spent of each of OCV and DCV which IS in the posted package deal. I edited the post to put it in.

[torchwolf]

First of all, this is OT, as the OP, Pamela Isley, has stated that she wanted a Twilight-like vampire.


If I incinerate a character, I don't kill the victim and then "turn around" and create a charred corpse. The act of creating the charred corpse is the act of killing the victim. The act of creating the new vampire is the act of killing the victim. It's just a form of murder that leaves behind an unusually active corpse. We're just talking about the best way to reflect how active that corpse is.

In other words, the new vampire is the "inconvenient remains."
If creating a new vampire is defined as bringing them back from the brink of death or from beyond that, is a matter of interpretation which has generated quite a few books, films, and RPGs. I would think sources mostly agree that unless the vampire does something (feed the victim blood, enact a ritual, etc.) the victims would usually end up dead if the vampire drains all of their blood.
If the death of the victim happens during the process of becoming a vampire or not may be considered either a fact that needs a game construct or just sfx of the Summon or Transform.


In exactly the same way that any other summoned being "happens" to know whatever that being should reasonably be expected to know.
I agree, much in the same way such specific knowledges would be useless to represent by separate KS on a regular character (undead or not).
Side Note: I don't think I have ever seen any effects of complete amnesia in source literature.


I think Summon in this case fits the effect better than Transform, or at least as well. But if Transform is used, rather than saying "No way to change back" I'd suggest "anything that can restore life to the dead changes the victim back." Of course, that's assuming any such thing is remotely possible in the game world.
Indeed, Necromancy is specifically used for the purpose of creating Undead of all sorts in the Fantasy Grimoires (although it's 5th Edition, this won't likely change).
Side Note: While it may seem confusing, it makes game-mechanical sense that Summon is also used in those books to summon existing Undead in the vicinity.


Transform into Palindromedary
Not Summoning Palindromedary?:confused:


Here is a vampire package deal I just built. http://www.herogames.com/hdPackageDeals.htm?genre=Horror+Hero&ruleset=6E

I avoided the 'heal back' problem by simply stating that it does not heal back. It is the GM's prerogative to change the rules if such a change is warranted for their game.

This is a classic vampire package.
Love this, I definitely have much use for it; downloaded; repped. :thumbup:
I am going to ponder the Summon or Transform approaches some more before deciding which to use, but apart from that detail, the abilities you list are very good.


Just define the heal-back/reversal requirement as "an extremely obscure magic ritual performed by a coven of white mages"--it will almost certainly never come up in game, and in the unfortunate circumstance that one's DNPC is transformed into a vampire, the heroes have an interesting quest on their hands.
[slightly more off topic] There is at least one movie where a blood transfusion also worked, though personally I hate that. :rolleyes: The heal-back/reversal requirement would depend on what source material you use, as there are tons of "creative" solutions by any horror writer that wants to reinvent the vampire.
More Reasonable Examples:
In Bram Stoker's Dracula, the Lord of Vampires is NOT killed by sunlight, just weakened.
In Eastern European (or similarly, Asian) legends, vampires have quite varying abilities.

Asian Bestiary I & II (with very good writeups), and Ultimate Mystic (lacking writeups), have quite a few good examples of different kinds of vampire-like beings.

[PamelaIsley]

Summoning doesn't work for what I would use the vampire for.

What if a player character is turned into a vampire?

I also don't understand the Hero concept of using a power that is completely unrelated thematically to what you're trying to do to simulate something because of the clunky interaction of Hero rules. This reminds me too much of desolidification as a way to simulate immunity to certain type of damage.

You transform into a vampire. The old vampire is not summoning a new vampire.

For some reason, I forgot that I had a vampire template. In News of the World, the Champions character Stalker is a vampire. He's actually built much worse than Panpiper's original template, but at least some of the concepts are in black and white.

[Lucius]

What if a player character is turned into a vampire?


I was going to ask “What if a player character is killed in any other way?” But I think you really mean one or both of these two points (correct me if I'm wrong)
1.If a player character's corpse rises as a vampire, I want the player to play the vampire as a player character
2.If a player character's corpse rises as a vampire, I want there to be some way that the player character can come back to true life

As for the first point, I don't think it's illegal for a player character to be a Summoned creature – I hope not, I know I've played one. But the second point practically calls out for Transform.

So does the fact that, in some source material I'm aware of, it's a process playing out over extended time. Transform with Cumulative matches that.



I also don't understand the Hero concept of using a power that is completely unrelated thematically to what you're trying to do

Well, you're right that Summon is “unrelated thematically” to vampirism.

Transform is unrelated thematically to vampirism.

Killing Attack is unrelated thematically to vampirism. So is Growth, and Knockback Resistance, and Duplication.

All Powers (capital P Powers, the mechanical elements in the core book, as opposed to actual specific power constructs attached to specific characters) are unrelated thematically to being a vampire, or being a mutant with cold powers, or being a jedi, or being from Faerie, or being a robot. They are deliberately generic. They may be better or worse at creating a given desired effect, but no Power is more “thematically related” to whatever you're trying to do than any other power.

In other words, it's up to you to create your own thematic relationships by crafting and presenting the power construct in such a way as to fulfill your vision of “what you're trying to do.”

With that said, and with admitted uncertainty about how useful this will be, I have another suggestion to approaching this situation – Healing with Resurrection and some pretty severe Side Effects. That certainly eliminates any doubt that it's the same character and has the same player.



to simulate something because of the clunky interaction of Hero rules. This reminds me too much of desolidification as a way to simulate immunity to certain type of damage.


I hate Desolidification. I was really hoping it would either be eliminated or fixed somehow in the New Dispensation.

Lucius Alexander

Views expressed by Lucius Alexander are not necessarily those of the House of the Palindromedary, members of the Household, allies or affiliates of the House, or the Palindromedary

[PamelaIsley]

I disagree with your thematic argument.

I also just don't think summon works at all. It doesn't achieve the right effect. But this is a circular discussion. I'm not going to be convinced and I doubt anyone else is either.

[pinecone]

Well, you hand waved the heal problem that held me up.

Very impressive though in all other ways.

Another "Classic" "heal back" is taking out the Vamp who transformed the Victum in the first place (usually before the new Vamp feeds for the first time, more drama that way...)

[ghost-angel]

I also don't understand the Hero concept of using a power that is completely unrelated thematically to what you're trying to do to simulate something because of the clunky interaction of Hero rules. This reminds me too much of desolidification as a way to simulate immunity to certain type of damage.

You transform into a vampire. The old vampire is not summoning a new vampire.

First, a Powers Mechanical Name may have absolutely nothing to do with what you're doing - it's not thematics; it's Mechanics & Special Effects.

"Energy Blast" (which is what Blast was called until 6E) is actually a good example of the idea - throwing a rock at someone was Energy Blast. Normal Damage with a Ranged Attack. Rocks are not Energy.

Moving beyond that... depending on how you view a Vampire coming into the world, you may or may not be "summoning" something; regardless of whether you use Summon or Transform.

Here's a couple idea of Vampirism and what it might be (which is irrelevant to what the Powers it may have are):
1) The possession of a human corpse by a malevolent spirit
2) A Viral infection that animates and keeps alive an otherwise dead body, keeping memories and persona in tact
3) A particularly vicious soulless corpse, intelligence from its life as a human is intact, but the personality may be warped due to a lack of soul

Either way, what happens when a person is made into a vampire is that the Human Body is replaced with a Vampire Body; Intellect, Soul, and Persona may transfer with it creating a classic Braham Stoker Vampire ala Dracula. (or version based off Anne Rice, or any other number of modern authors).

Mechanically what's happening? Is the human killed? possibly. We'll say yes. Is a Vampire brought into existence? Most definitely. How?

Thematically, doesn't matter. The point is you're doing one of two things on a purely Mechanical Level:

Summon: summon does on thing; takes a creature from somewhere (or absolutely nowhere) and creates it whole clothe right there in front of you. BING! New creature that wasn't there before is there now. Various Modifiers can be used to shape various Special Effects, but the very basic Summon does one thing and one thing only: A Character Sheet that wasn't there before is there now.

Transform: Changes Thing A into Thing B. Nicely convenient that we have Thing A (Person) and Thing B (Vampire) all ready to go, and there's rules built into remove and add Powers, Complications and all kinds of nifty stuff. Changing Character Sheet A into Character Sheet B seems pretty much custom built for Transform.

Now; issues with both ideas; Summon has a duration, eventually the Summoned Creature goes away. Well - that's easy enough to model, your Newly Minted Vampire just wanders off into the night. . . Transform has that Healing Back issue, well, what is Healing Back - it's Thing B turning back into Thing A. If Thing A was a Human Corpse Freshly Killed then Healing Back should be self evident: Killing The Vampire (Thing B) Heals it right back to a Corpse. There, that's nicely satisfied.

Builds:
Summon; A Vampire; Focus (Human Corpse) Obvious, Accessible; Extra Time 1 Minute (to infuse it with all that vampiry goodness); NOTE: Human Corpse Focus is used up during the Summon Process, all gone. (the Focus avoids the messy question of "Does the human corpse return once the Summoned Creature goes away?" - no, it does not.)

Transform, Severe; Freshly Made Human Corpse into Freshly Minted Vampire; Heal Back Condition: Kill The Vampire.

Same idea, different Mechanical approaches, same end result. Choose the one that works best for you.

[PamelaIsley]

There's something very wrong conceptually with using the Summon mechanic. I had a longer post about it, but I see no reason to continue the debate. If you think that turning a person into a vampire equates to killing them and summoning a new creature, then use summon.

I'm almost finished with my own template.

[PamelaIsley]

I can't come up with enough offsets for a Twilight vampire.

Twilight vampires cast reflections, do not die in sunlight, can enter homes uninvited, and are not susceptible to things like garlic and holy symbols.

They don't have a lot of powers (the multiform and summoning powers in particular), but are almost indestructible.

Here is what I have so far:

Vampire Template:

STR +20
DEX +5 (10)
Body +10

PD +5
ED +5

SPD +10

Total Cost: 60

Talents and Skills

Striking Appearance (Strangely Attractive, +2d6) (6)

Powers

Teeth (HKA 1d6, 3d6 with STR, Penetrating +1/2, 0 End +1/2, +1 Increased Stun +1/4, Must have Target in Grab -1 1/2); (10)

Blood Drain (Drain Body 1d6, Constant +1/2, 0 End +1/2, Teeth Must Do Body First -1/2, Must have Target in Grab -1 1/2); (7)

Create Vampire (Severe Transform 2d6, Human into Vampire, Heals Back at Death, 0 End +1/2, Constant +1/2, Only Works on Targets Reduced to 0 Body by Blood Drain -1, All Or Nothing -1/2, Limited to Humans -1/2); (20)

Diamond Skin (Physical Damage Reduction 50%; Energy Damage Reduction 25%) (45)

Diamond Skin II (Resistant Protection 3 PD / 3 ED) (9)

Vampiric Regeneration (3 BODY per Day, Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Stopped
by cutting off its head and burning the body, Resurrection Only -2); (12)

Life Support (Immunity: All terrestrial poisons, All terrestrial diseases; Longevity: Immortal; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Self-Contained Breathing) (29)

Leaper (Leaping 8 M) (4)

Swift (Running 12 M) (12)

Nightvision (5)

Total Cost: 153
Vampire Cost: 219

Complications:
Distinctive Feature (Vampire, Not Concealable; Extreme Reaction) (15)
Distinctive Feature (Diamond Skin, Concealable, Extreme Reaction, Common Senses, Only in Sunlight) (15)
Distinctive Feature (Pale Skin and Eyes, Not Concealable, Not Distinctive in some cultures or societies) (10)
Negative Reputation: (Infrequently, Extreme, Known Only to Small Group) (5)
Psychological Complication (Thinks of Humans as Food, Very Common, Strong) (20)
Hunted (Vampire Hunters, Frequently, As Powerful, Kill) (15)
Hunted (Werewolves, Infrequently, As Powerful, Kill) (10)
Dependence (Blood Weakness: -3 To Characteristic Rolls and related rolls per time increment, Difficult To Obtain, 1 Day, Addiction) (5)
Vulnerability (Fire, 2x Body Damage, Common) (20)
Social Complication (Cannot Engage in Activities in Sunlight, Frequently, Severe) (20)

Total: 135

[bigbywolfe]

There's something very wrong conceptually with using the Summon mechanic. I had a longer post about it, but I see no reason to continue the debate. If you think that turning a person into a vampire equates to killing them and summoning a new creature, then use summon.
It is not "wrong". There are multiple ways to do everything and anything in Hero. Is Summon the best way to do a vampire? I don't think so. I don't like using Summon in that way. But there is nothing "wrong conceptually" about using it. There are multiple options. I don't think anyone is debating you saying you should use Summon, just that it is one option. Denying that it is a legitimate option, and going as far as saying it's actually wrong to do it that way is a distinctly un-Hero way to do things.

EDIT: Personally, I agree with you in that I don’t like using Summon for the “‘turning’ a vampire” ability, but that’s just my opinion. There is nothing mechanically or SFX wise that makes it wrong. I think your issue is purely semantics. You are getting hung up on the word “summon”.

[casualplayer]

There is no wrong in HERO, just GM approved or disapproved. And since it is PamelaIsley's template....

Does the Transform really have to be much at all? The victim is usually at -BODY when the Transform-ation happens. Doesn't 1 pip do the trick? Maybe make it Trigger if BODY Drain puts the victim into the negatives?

Twilight vampires don't have enough offsets because they are not balanced characters. You can have one of three things: all Twilight vampires so everyone is equally unbalanced, adjust your template to be less Twilighty or get used to the non-vampires griping a lot.

[ghost-angel]

I don't - personally - particularly like the Summon solution.

But it is a Mechanically Acceptable Solution - meaning it is not "wrong" as the end result is from a Pure Mechanics Standpoint exactly what you want to have happen. One thing is gone (Human) and another is there (Vampire).

Just from my brief observations of your interactions with Hero - you aren't going far enough in the Reason From Effects approach to truly expand your use and understanding of the Hero System.
If the Mechanics gets you Mechanically from Point A To Point B or achieves Mechanically what you want to have happen then it's merely a matter of applying Special Effects to turn Mechanic into Game Play.

There is often, if not always, two or more ways to do the same thing with the Hero System. No one way will be More or Less Correct than any other. They are only Which I Like Better.

Saying "wrong" is off. Saying "I like this one better" is a more accurate and open approach.

If you ask me which one I would use, it would be Transform. Though I kind of like my Summon build.

[PamelaIsley]

I am no Hero veteran and my knowledge of the system is incomplete, but my opinion on Summoning isn't going to change. Summoning is not achieving the same mechanical effect. It's achieving a similar mechanical effect in a very different way.

If a vampire bites a PC and turns them into a vampire, the mechanic of that transformation should be represented by the application of a vampire template to the character's existing sheet. The power that does this is Transform. It would be odd to make the PC start over and hand them entirely new character sheet. I think this applies equally to any NPC, but the PC example seems to make a stronger point.

If, however, you think all vampires will be the same (they will not be built on the base character killed), you could make summoning work. That just isn't how I picture a vampire transformation working.

Again, I deleted a very long post on this. I just don't see the point of turning this discussion into a longer debate.

[dmjalund]

I think an Extra Advantage to Tranform should be allowed to make reversal that much harder (say a minimum of +1, with +3 not out of the question)

[rreay]

I am no Hero veteran and my knowledge of the system is incomplete, but my opinion on Summoning isn't going to change. Summoning is not achieving the same mechanical effect. It's achieving a similar mechanical effect in a very different way.


I know, I know, I shouldn't be continuing this. Just keep in mind that people who have more experience with the system consider summon appropriate. 6e1:291 specifically gives the example of creating a Vampire with summon. And the rules from transform explicitly forbid turning dead matter into live; 6e1:307 "Characters cannot Transform inanimate objects into living beings — that’s a special effect of Summon. A chair Transformed into a frog becomes a frog, but a dead one."

I'm not saying you're wrong, transform is OK if you want to build it that way, I'm just saying others aren't wrong either. In my campaign (if I ever start one again), this would be Summon targeted corpse as a vampire, expanded class of beings, specific being.



If a vampire bites a PC and turns them into a vampire, the mechanic of that transformation should be represented by the application of a vampire template to the character's existing sheet.

A PC transforming into a vampire does not *NEED* any mechanic. Having a mechanic is fine, you just don't need one at all. The same way the plot devices aren't always stated out, changing a PC doesn't need to be either. If the PCs character is unplayable after this then it doesn't matter how it's done and simply killing the character is sufficient. The fact that they return as the malevent living dead is story, not to different from how the major villain of a piece "couldn't possibly survive that". If the PC remains playable then applying this to a PC should be more like a radiation accident that changes the character sheet with the players full blessing. Like a good radiation accident it needs justification not a mechanic.

[PamelaIsley]

Thanks to Panpiper for his wonderful template. It was a great help, combined with Stalker in News of the World.

Edit: Nothing else to say.

[rreay]

I can't come up with enough offsets for a Twilight vampire.


Whatever method you use you're going to have problems adding that much power with out limitations. I think you're going to have to step outside the mechanics to do it well. There are a few possibilities that i see:


If this is applied to an NPC you simply give it to them in the interest of the story. You build NPCs to match what they should do, so just do it.
Applied to a PC treat it like a radiation accident. If they have banked XP they spend it to do this. If you know ahead of time that this is coming up have the player set aside XP pay for it. Finally if this comes up and the PC does not have enough banked XP start docking them XP until it is payed for.
100+ points is a lot to bank and/or payoff. You may have to just give it to them in the interest of the story. If everyone is having fun it's OK to have imbalanced power ratios. This is hard to do though and requires a good GM and good players.
If this is a major point in the campaign and is known from the start. Start the character(s) who will be transformed on less points. Once the transform happens everyone is at or near the same power level.


Good luck.

[Panpiper]

100+ points is a lot to bank and/or payoff.

I might recommend: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76575-Subsidized-Buy-in-Subsidized-Hold-Back

If a player earns 3 XP per game and banks it all for 13 games in the system linked, thy will have 100 character points in their GM XP pool.

[Matt Holck]

Teeth (HKA 1d6, 3d6 with STR, Penetrating +1/2, 0 End +1/2, +1 Increased Stun +1/4, Must have Target in Grab -1 1/2); (10)I'm pretty sure the damage of a kill attack can only by doubled by strength
further moire the 3d6 will kill normals possibly decapitating them

[ghost-angel]

I'm pretty sure the damage of a kill attack can only by doubled by strength
further moire the 2d5 kill bill will kill normals possibly decapitating them

6E removed the doubling rule as a default and made it an optional rule.

[Matt Holck]

ya someone else else edited my post above
check the ip addresses of my entries please
I have two

well there's gonna be a lot of filtering advantage multiplication

[Chris Goodwin]

Just define the heal-back/reversal requirement as "an extremely obscure magic ritual performed by a coven of white mages"--it will almost certainly never come up in game, and in the unfortunate circumstance that one's DNPC is transformed into a vampire, the heroes have an interesting quest on their hands.

My favorite idea is this: Reversal condition: take this stick, wave it around in the air, then break it over your knee. Except that as soon as I've got the guy transformed, the stick goes into a wood chipper, and the chips burned into ash.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Whatever method you use you're going to have problems adding that much power with out limitations. I think you're going to have to step outside the mechanics to do it well. There are a few possibilities that i see:


If this is applied to an NPC you simply give it to them in the interest of the story. You build NPCs to match what they should do, so just do it.
Applied to a PC treat it like a radiation accident. If they have banked XP they spend it to do this. If you know ahead of time that this is coming up have the player set aside XP pay for it. Finally if this comes up and the PC does not have enough banked XP start docking them XP until it is payed for.
100+ points is a lot to bank and/or payoff. You may have to just give it to them in the interest of the story. If everyone is having fun it's OK to have imbalanced power ratios. This is hard to do though and requires a good GM and good players.
If this is a major point in the campaign and is known from the start. Start the character(s) who will be transformed on less points. Once the transform happens everyone is at or near the same power level.


Good luck.

Well, not exactly.

Bear in mind, I'm still working from a 5th edition frame of reference here, so 6ED compliance will have to be checked, but as the root problem, mechanically speaking, is that the character is suddenly jumping up a bunch of points, there are two rules legal approaches I can think of, both mentioned here previously.

Transform is the obvious first choice... there's that oft overlooked aspect of Transform where it can add points in the course of the transformation. In 5th it's +5 Points per extra target Body, used for adding things like Wings and Claws, but with as much utility for other things. This does shift the build tho... Rather than an All or Nothing aimed at a low target number for a mostly drained out victim, you will have a base target Body equal to the points in your Vampire Package/5. I'd probably do this as a Continuous 1d6 Transform (possibly Uncontrolled). Thus a single application of the attack will eventually Transform the target, but there will be some variation in the time the change takes. This is my preferred model.

The Summon approach would be a legal way as well, just make sure that the max points you can Summon are well above what you'd prepare for as the max point level you'd expect a real human character to hit, add the points for the Vampire package and Bob's yer uncle. Don't even need a new sheet for the newly "Summoned" vampire unless you're going to be pruning off a lot of bits that might not translate to the new form (for example, in a lot of settings removing Faith based Powers upon conversion). Summon does have the pesky wearing off/number of tasks bit, however. Not to mention the "Specific Target" and Loyalty advantages make it a not cheap approach. Once again, could fit depending on your personal style of Vampirisim.

I'm pretty sure you could work it with Duplication as well, but that's WAY too messy for my tastes.

Oh, and by the by, in general reference to the overall thread, I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned the Vampire Template in 5th FH. While distinctly different that what I've heard of Twilight Vampires, it could still lend a few benchmarks. It's worth noting that after disads it's still a +91 point Package, and it doesn't include any Stat increases, and yeah... Vampire Packages are a heap buncha points to drop on all at once, pretty much no matter how you write 'em or what sub-genre type you're aiming for.

[torchwolf]

Transform is the obvious first choice... there's that oft overlooked aspect of Transform where it can add points in the course of the transformation. In 5th it's +5 Points per extra target Body, used for adding things like Wings and Claws, but with as much utility for other things. This does shift the build tho... Rather than an All or Nothing aimed at a low target number for a mostly drained out victim, you will have a base target Body equal to the points in your Vampire Package/5. I'd probably do this as a Continuous 1d6 Transform (possibly Uncontrolled). Thus a single application of the attack will eventually Transform the target, but there will be some variation in the time the change takes. This is my preferred model.
I like this best as well, and that is how I would build most vampires in my main campaign, plus I like to use the Partial Transform advantage to simulate how it can take place gradually, as in some source material where the victim gains a few abilities at a time with an increased aversion to sunlight and a growing appetite for blood (and an abnormal interest in glaring wantonly at jugular arteries).


The Summon approach would be a legal way as well, just make sure that the max points you can Summon are well above what you'd prepare for as the max point level you'd expect a real human character to hit, add the points for the Vampire package and Bob's yer uncle. Don't even need a new sheet for the newly "Summoned" vampire unless you're going to be pruning off a lot of bits that might not translate to the new form (for example, in a lot of settings removing Faith based Powers upon conversion). Summon does have the pesky wearing off/number of tasks bit, however. Not to mention the "Specific Target" and Loyalty advantages make it a not cheap approach. Once again, could fit depending on your personal style of Vampirisim.
It should not be ruled out entirely even if you pick another preferred option for the campaign - it is useful for some concepts. There are many kinds of vampires, after all.


I'm pretty sure you could work it with Duplication as well, but that's WAY too messy for my tastes.
Agreed, I'm not sure I'd want to go that road more than the way of EDM to dimension where character is a vampire.:rolleyes:


Oh, and by the by, in general reference to the overall thread, I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned the Vampire Template in 5th FH. While distinctly different that what I've heard of Twilight Vampires, it could still lend a few benchmarks. It's worth noting that after disads it's still a +91 point Package, and it doesn't include any Stat increases, and yeah... Vampire Packages are a heap buncha points to drop on all at once, pretty much no matter how you write 'em or what sub-genre type you're aiming for.
Good suggestion! On the points issue: it would have to depend on campaign.
In a Heroic campaign without the presence of any powers, there would have to be campaign reasons why the characters wouldn't want to be vampires just to be powerful, but that could be presented by the GM in a convincing fashion: "OK, vampires are powerful, but do you really have any idea of their life expectancy with the sheer number of enemies they get?"
In campaigns where there are Powers available to PCs it can be easily remedied: I did it by reasoning that as characters are both physically and supernaturally altered by becoming vampires, they lose the ability to possess most Powers or use magic in a way open to other characters. This made my players consider it a true curse to become a vampire (they found out about this before it happened to any of them and then they were horrified enough to begin hunting the suckers).
The old WoD had the same principle of losing abilities if/when Mages became vampires, don't know about the new one.
In general, if the players feel that you lose something if you become a vampire (even if that is left vague along the lines of being cursed somehow), the points difference will matter less in the campaign.

IME, YMMV. :)

[kahuna's bro]

have you tried buliding the twilight "vampires" as mutants/mutation would that lessen the conufsion or double it?

[PamelaIsley]

have you tried buliding the twilight "vampires" as mutants/mutation would that lessen the conufsion or double it?

The problem with building a Twilight vampire is they don't suffer from enough complications to pay for the transformation. The lowest gap I could come up with was about 80 points, which equates to 16 additional body (a lot).

For this reason, this project shifted to the backburner. My vampire villain is completely done, but without a usable template to apply to his victims (and I think vampires would retain superpowers; in fact, in Twilight extraordinary character traits are made more powerful by the transformation, though I did not try to model this), there is little use for a vampire.

[rreay]

If it's a good idea don't drop it because because you can't come up with a cost for the mechanics cost it. This is a plot device and plot devices don't need to be costed cleanly.

If this is for an NPC just give them the ability. NPC costs are hidden from the players so they'll never know anyway.

If this ability is for a PC you can just set a value that seems appropriate. Treat it like a perk, 10 points to be able to turn others.

[mallet]

Multiform.

That's what you are looking for. I got the idea when I was looking through the Enchanted Items book. In it there is an item called the "Crown of the troll king". What happens is whenever someone puts the crown on they are transformed into a Troll, but they keep their own skills and any characteristics that are better then a normal troll. This is basically what is happening when you turn someone into a vampire. They are taking on a new form with some better stats and powers, but also keeping their own skills and INT, EGO, etc...

So you should build it as a multiform. One that the Player can not choose to transfer back from.

6th Ed has rules for this under Multiform in the Personality Loss subsection. basically the person makes a roll (this would happen during the transformation), and if (when) he fails it he becomes "trapped" in the current form and can only recover his old form and personality with outside help (ie, whatever way you decide (if any) that a vampire can turn back in to their original self. Killing sire, blood transfusion, God's blessing, etc...).

All you have to do is build what a average vampire in your campaign is, then that is what the person turns into, but they keep any stats that are higher then the Average vampire, and they keep any skills, perks, talents that they already had, plus get any new powers, that the new form has.

That should do the trick.

[The Rose]

Transform implies inherently that healing is possible. Somethings just can't be healed.

It implies it in the same way that Killing attacks imply it. But once you have taken twice your body, you are dead. The means by which to alter that state of affairs is likely to be obscure, remote, mythical, [insert other descriptors]. If a Sever Transform has done its job by doing double body plus, then it seems reasonable to assume that any heal backs are (minus GA's good example of the heal back being death): Obscure, remote, mythical [insert other descriptors].

Personally, I think it is okay to use a Summon to represent the bringing forth of a vampire version of someone and having their memories completely in tact. "Summon Specific Person" along with what other aspects you want the summon to have in addition to its original. I am also a fan of using summon in ways that it isn't used in as a default (possession is my key one). All that said, though, I think a generic Vamprism attack is best modeled with a Transform.

A point was made upthread that summon has an upper limit of effect that Transform doesn't, so you inevitably have the potential to not be able to really vampirize someone at full effect. The response to this was that it makes some sense that not everyone would retain all their points. Does it? If I'm vamp who can vampirize up to a 500pt creature using a summon build, what happens when I run into a character, whose only notable costs are mundane (equipment, knowledges, high str, etc) and already costs 550 pts? What becomes of the justification that the target must lose a minimum of 50pts (not counting the losses incurred from some of that 500 being eaten up by "vamp" powers)?

Anyway. Go with Transform. Best solution. One doesn't need to handwave the 'heal back' issue. Just make the heal back be obscure (plot hook) or go with GA's simple solution of saying death is the natural reversion.

La Rose.

[dmjalund]

I will reiterate my suggestion, that there should be a large Power Advantage to Transform to allow the "heal back" to be defined as something arduous and or obscure

[PamelaIsley]

Making the transform power cost more by increasing the cost of having an obscure heal-back condition would only complicate making a vampire. It wouldn't help much.

Transform is clearly the way to do it, but the way transform functions makes it rather hard to use. A simple concept in most horror or fantasy games (vampires can create other vampires) simply can't be modeled very well by Hero without lots of pay-fors that don't fit many non-religious vampire concepts. This happened in M&M all the time too.

[Tasha]

I would also use Transform. As for the heal back issue. I would rule that pre transform (before the Transform hits double body) that the body would heal back at normal rate. After transform to vampire form, I would have a way back to human form that is difficult to accomplish. (ie not drinking blood and having some sort of ritual to reverse the transformation or some kind of medical treatment that reverses the DNA changes).

[Greywind]

Making the transform power cost more by increasing the cost of having an obscure heal-back condition would only complicate making a vampire. It wouldn't help much.

Transform is clearly the way to do it, but the way transform functions makes it rather hard to use. A simple concept in most horror or fantasy games (vampires can create other vampires) simply can't be modeled very well by Hero without lots of pay-fors that don't fit many non-religious vampire concepts. This happened in M&M all the time too.
Which is why it falls easier under "plot device" than "game mechanic".

[JmOz]

Radiation accident

[Tasha]

Which is why it falls easier under "plot device" than "game mechanic".

Well said. In most urban Fantasy Genre books Vampirism is something that is bestowed on someone. It's one of those things that come up so rarely that I am not completly sure that making a PC vampire pay for the ability is actually fair. One common trope is that there is some Vampiric Council that oversees all things Vampire. Another one is that there is one powerful vampire that controls anywhere from a city to a state and all things like making new vampires has to be ok'ed. Another common trope is that noob vampires cannot make other noob Vampires, only "Master" level Vampires have the power or knowledge to create another vamp.

I guess if one MUST have that power on the character sheet, it could be written up with limits like Takes extra time(one day). Concentration, Gestures making subject drink your blood etc. Cost extra endurance (loses blood), side effect (takes body damage as subject drinks your blood).

ie: 7pts Vampiric Transformation: Severe Transform 2d6+1, Partial Transform (+1/2) (52 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Day, -4), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (2d6 Killing attack; -1), Gestures (Needs to feed subject my blood; -1/4), Unified Power (Vampiric Powers; -1/4) 15 end

This is similar to what many movies have as a vampiric transform that takes multiple days. To make it faster just turn down the extra time and tone down the side effects (ie make them minor 1d6 killing)

[Tasha]

Here's my thoughts on a Vampiric Template (Includes a HD prefab). It's just a list of stuff that vampires can commonly do. Some of the more powerful abilities are options and can be added later as the vampire gains exp.



Powers
Vampiric Char Boost
10 1) +10 STR - END=1
10 2) +5 DEX
5 3) +5 CON
5 4) +5 PRE
10 5) +2 OCV
10 6) +2 DCV
10 7) +1 SPD
1 8) +1 PD
1 9) +1 ED
5 10) +5 REC
4 11) +20 END
5 12) +10 STUN

Vampiric Powers
5 1) Nightvision - END=0
5 2) Infrared Perception (Sight Group) - END=0
3 3) Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group) - END=0
33 4) Regeneration (2 BODY per 5 Minutes), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection (49 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Not vs Holy, Fire or SIlver Damage; -1/2) - END=0
6 5) Instant Healing: Resistant Protection (3 PD/3 ED) (9 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Not vs Holy, Fire or SIlver Damage; -1/2) - END=0
5 6) Sucking blood: Drain BODY 2d6 (20 Active Points); Attack Versus Alternate Defense (PD; All Or Nothing; Any armor will prevent this power from working; -2), No Range (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) - END=2

Optional Vampiric Powers
7 1) Severe Transform 2d6+1 (Human to Vampire, Time and Holy ritual), Partial Transform (+1/2) (52 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Day, -4), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (2d6 Killing attack; -1), Gestures (Needs to feed subject my blood; -1/4), Unified Power (Vampiric Powers; -1/4) - END=15
20 2) Vampiric Levitation: Flight 20m - END=2
27 3) Mist Form: Desolidification (affected by magic) (40 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2) - END=4
20 4) Talons: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1 (2 1/2d6 w/STR) - END=2
40 5) Hypnotic Eyes: Mind Control 12d6 (Human class of minds) (60 Active Points); Eye Contact Required (-1/2) - END=6
25 6) Change into Wolf or Bat form: Multiform (100 Character Points in the most expensive form) (x2 Number Of Forms) - END=0
Powers Total: 272
Complications
Vampire Complications [Notes: Note this is a bit of a laundry list of Vampiric Weaknesses. Not all vampires have all of these or even most of these. It depends on the campaign, check with your GM for more info]
20 1) Physical Complication: Cannot Cross Running Water (Frequently; Greatly Impairing)
20 2) Physical Complication: Cannot Enter a Private Residence without Permission (Frequently; Greatly Impairing) [Notes: BTW this means that Vamps can go into Public places just fine. Not homes.]
25 3) Susceptibility: Sunlight 1d6 damage per Segment (Common)
5 4) Distinctive Features: Does not show a reflection in the mirror (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
15 5) Hunted: Vampire Hunters Infrequently (Mo Pow; Harshly Punish) [Notes: This is one time that Something "less powerful" is more powerful just because they know their prey's weaknesses]
15 6) Susceptibility: Silver 1d6 damage per Phase (Uncommon) [Notes: Not all vampires have this weakness, but here it is for those who do]
20 7) Physical Complication: Vampiric powers don't work during the day (Frequently; Greatly Impairing) [Notes: This could also be purchased as a limit on all vampiric powers. Also it is possible to make vampiric powers cost extra end during the day which is also a limit that can be placed on powers]
Complications Points: 120

---------------------------------------
Hope you all like it
Tasha :D

[Lucius]

Making the transform power cost more by increasing the cost of having an obscure heal-back condition would only complicate making a vampire. It wouldn't help much.

Transform is clearly the way to do it, but the way transform functions makes it rather hard to use. A simple concept in most horror or fantasy games (vampires can create other vampires) simply can't be modeled very well by Hero without lots of pay-fors that don't fit many non-religious vampire concepts. This happened in M&M all the time too.

I wish I knew what you mean by "lots of pay-fors that don't fit many non-religious vampire concepts."

As for "hard to use" I assume you mean one of two things;

It costs a lot of points. Well, "I can lift the Empire State Building" is a simple concept too, but it will also cost a lot of points. If you want a powerful ability, especially if you want unrestricted use of it, you will have to pay a lot of points. That's the system working as it should.

The "Heal Back" condition. Some ways around that have also been discussed. I can think of one I haven't seen yet; say it heals back normally (so just protecting the partially transformed victim from the vampire for a long enough time undoes the effect) and don't give the fully transformed vampire any natural REC. Any REC, Regeneration, or whatever the vampire has, will have a simple straightforward "Does not undo the Transformation" Limitation, or the more insidious route puts Side Effects: Transformation on all vampiric powers (ESPECIALLY including Regeneration) so that any use of vampire abilities digs the character further into the pit.

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary

[prestidigitator]

Pfft. The vampire transformation thing is easy. Just make it a side effect of Resurrection Healing. ;)

[mallet]

How about this?

The person changed into the vampire doesn't pay anything for it (complications = new character points), rather the Vampire changing the person pays for it. Using the Follower perk. In most settings a vampire is "bound" to their creator through blood magic and such. Thus they become a follower of the vampire that turned them. Later on the turned vampire can spend an equal number of points that the Follower perk is worth to gain his/her "freedom" from being a Follower of the main vamp.

That solves all the problems, since the newly turned vamp isn't "transformed" technically, but rather he/she buys the Vampire Package Deal (which has a final cost of zero), and the Vampire creating them pays the points to gain a follower.

[Lucius]

Pfft. The vampire transformation thing is easy. Just make it a side effect of Resurrection Healing. ;)

I think you just hit the stake right on the head.

Healing BODY 4d6, Resurrection (60 Active Points); Extra Time (20 Minutes, -2 1/2), 3 Charges (-1 1/4), Conditional Power Only someone the vampire has killed via blood drain (-1), Limited Power Must begin within one hour of death (-1), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Resurrection Only (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Side Effect only affects the recipient of the benefits of the Power; Victim rises as a vampire; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) Real Cost: 6


Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary is impressed at what Prestidigitator pulled out of his hat

[AnotherSkip]

"...and direct application of excessive handwavium solves all..."

How about something directly outside of game mechanics. Like a plot device...


Actually I agree with this, after all a human has the ability of procreation that he did not pay points for. So why should any other character be required to pay points for procreation?

[Lucius]

Actually I agree with this, after all a human has the ability of procreation that he did not pay points for. So why should any other character be required to pay points for procreation?

If the vampire's progeny were a tiny helpless being that would be a drain on the progenitor's time and resources and a complication in their life for years to come before maturing to the point of being even moderately independent, let alone useful, the case would be analogous.

Or if a human's act of procreation resulted in the immediate or near immediate creation of a fully adult, very powerful secondary character that is more or less under the progenitor's control.

Lucius Alexander

and then there's the palindromedary

[Vondy]

If transformation is used there is no need for either party to pay points beyond the transformation attack itself.

[dmjalund]

The example does bring up the idea of a Resurrection/Healing based Transform as compared to one originated from killing attacks.

[Tasha]

The example does bring up the idea of a Resurrection/Healing based Transform as compared to one originated from killing attacks.

Unfortunately that only models the kind of Vampirism transmission that is based on draining the person of all of their blood and killing them. Transform allows you to model Vampirism transmission based on the disease model (ie Daybreakers, Blade etc). It also means that the Vampire doesn't need to kill the person to transform them. It also bends the rules less because that Side Effect should be a Transform not just a "Person turns into a vampire"

I think that the healing back thing is being overstated. Transform came from the idea that if a killing attack can kill something, why not turn the thing into something else. IMHO once the double body has been passed, heal back by normal means should be nearly impossible. That it should require something like a resurrection effect on healing or another transform into something else. In the case of being a vampire having a special cure that is not readily available or known.

[dmjalund]

what about zombies - or the vampire myth that all you have to be to become a vampire is to be buried in unconsecrated ground?

[PamelaIsley]

Which is why it falls easier under "plot device" than "game mechanic".

This is just hand waving. You could do that with every concept.

[PamelaIsley]

I wish I knew what you mean by "lots of pay-fors that don't fit many non-religious vampire concepts."



A Twilight vampire, for example, doesn't suffer from any of the common Vampire complications like running water, religious symbols, garlic, etc. So those complications can't be used to pay for the transformation.

[Greywind]

This is just hand waving. You could do that with every concept.
Not if you expect consistency. The baseline character (pre-change) will be augmented and given several new disadvantages. There is no reasonable/explainable way to "heal" a vampire. According to all source material I've ever seen concerning mythic vampirism, regardless of regional consideration, the only way to fix a vampire, once changed, is to kill them.

Within a fantasy milieu, you have wish spells.

Within modern or super-heroic milieus you have a stake in the heart and decapitation, or fire.

[Lucius]

A Twilight vampire, for example, doesn't suffer from any of the common Vampire complications like running water, religious symbols, garlic, etc. So those complications can't be used to pay for the transformation.

Okay, I think I understand.

If your concept includes lots of goodies but no drawbacks or weaknesses, it will be more expensive than if the concept includes a lot of power but also has restrictions or complications.

Yep, that's how it works. That's how it's supposed to work.

Lucius Alexander

The super duper palindromedary that has no fear of crab cannons is more expensive than an ordinary palindromedary

[torchwolf]

A Twilight vampire, for example, doesn't suffer from any of the common Vampire complications like running water, religious symbols, garlic, etc. So those complications can't be used to pay for the transformation.
Balancing points has the same issue for other "granted" Powers and other abilities.
Writing up some characters like Galactus granting powers to his Heralds would certainly run into the same issues, in most game systems that were at least partially based on the premise of balancing effectiveness.
Using Transform doesn't necessarily require a point-balanced result though; you can theoretically just make someone uberpowerful using the ability to grant Powers with Transform.
Looking at it another way, where exactly does the force/power/energy tapped into for creating vampires come from? If it is a necromantic plague or a curse, it might be useful to look into some possible, very far-reaching consequences and determine Complications or other factors which never come up in the descriptions of vampires. This might help balance the concept, if you want to keep it balanced against other abilities in the game - even if it doesn't actually provide points.

There is one other method of doing this to consider:
Writing up the actual method of inflicting/granting vampiric abilities, using the Usable on Others Advantage.
This method of course just dodges the issue of point balancing.

[Matt the Bruins]

Pfft. The vampire transformation thing is easy. Just make it a side effect of Resurrection Healing. ;)

Ha! That's my rationale for how vampirism got started in the first place in games with a mystical slant. Someone came back wrong.

[Sean Waters]

Is this a character in a world where vampires do not feature much otherwise, or does the game involve vampires generally?

Also is a 'new' vampire basically the same as the old character PLUS stuff, or are all 'new' vampires pretty much identical, with perhaps, just different skills based ont heir past life?

You see just because you CAN build stuff with HERO doesn't mean you can not simply rule that anyone killed by a vampire's bite comes back as a NPC vampire - it is just what happens physiologically in that particular game world.

If vampires are a big part of the world then you need to think a lot about what happens and why.

One thing though: Transform works fine - and someone might have pointed this out - must admit I have not read the whole thread. What you do is you kill the character first then transform the corpse. Inanimate objects/dead things do not heal transform damage :) You're not supposed to give or take life with Transform but you are not - you start with a corpse and end with a vampire - which is still, technically, dead, although animate.

Mind you there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing the effect with summon: kill body, summon 'vampire demon' to inhabit it.

[kahuna's bro]

Is this a character in a world where vampires do not feature much otherwise, or does the game involve vampires generally?

Also is a 'new' vampire basically the same as the old character PLUS stuff, or are all 'new' vampires pretty much identical, with perhaps, just different skills based ont heir past life?

You see just because you CAN build stuff with HERO doesn't mean you can not simply rule that anyone killed by a vampire's bite comes back as a NPC vampire - it is just what happens physiologically in that particular game world.

If vampires are a big part of the world then you need to think a lot about what happens and why.

One thing though: Transform works fine - and someone might have pointed this out - must admit I have not read the whole thread. What you do is you kill the character first then transform the corpse. Inanimate objects/dead things do not heal transform damage :) You're not supposed to give or take life with Transform but you are not - you start with a corpse and end with a vampire - which is still, technically, dead, although animate.

Mind you there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing the effect with summon: kill body, summon 'vampire demon' to inhabit it.
or in the case of a twilight vampire have him empowered against his will

[Sean Waters]

Complete aside - and I've seen the movies but not read the books - how does a sparkly - sorry, Twilight - vampire pull another vampire's head off?

I mean a normal human couldn't pull another human's head off. OK vampires are much stronger than humans but that means that the vampire they are trying to pull the head off is also extremely strong, so, propotionally they still shouldn't be able to do it.

It's a mystery...

In fact there are now so many different versions of 'vampire' I'm not sure it is a useful descriptor anymore. Everyone is on the bandwagon and making up new stuff about them. What you need to do before you start is to decide what you mean by 'vampire', define that in Hero terms and then build it.

Is a vampire actually dead?
Damned?
Sparkly (WTF?)
Stronger, faster, better?
Blood crazed?
Vulnerable to garlic/staking/holy symbols?
Whatever...

[dmjalund]

stronger doesn't necessarily mean harder to hurt (vampires have regen, but they can usually be damaged [temporarily] easily enough)

[Sean Waters]

or in the case of a twilight vampire have him empowered against his will

That's another thing - is a vampire basically the same as the human they were but with vampire powers and a desire to drink blood OR something completely different that (perhaps) is able to draw on the memories of life but is in fact a different thing: is it immortality, bloodlust and power that corrupts (or MAY corrupt) a vampire or is the fact that it is a vampire, plain and simple that means it has a non-human morality and psychology.

Points only really matter when they intersect with the players. You don't need to work out the build for the whole world. So, if the players may become vampires (and still continue playing the character) or whether becoming a vampire basically 'NPCs' them.

The 'Hero approved' way to do this would be to use summon, but summon works for a fixed number of points so, for instance, if a superpowered being were to become a vampire, would they still retain their powers from life? If the answer is 'Yes' then that presents a problem - but not an insurmountable one. A 100 point summon can create a 500 point vampire. Also the nice thing about summon is that a 'new' vampire (being summoned) will be beholden to the creator - they will have a number of tasks to perform before they are 'free'.

Now Transform is obviously much cheaper - but you do need to change the way thee rules work to make it work - despite what I said above about animating a corpse, that is cheating - and if you do simply transform the 'living' character then they have to be able to heal - or there has to be a cure for vampirism.

The idea of simply giving a character more power is anathema to a point balance system. It doesn't matter if all the characters are going to get a power boost, as that is a zero sum - it does matter if only some are.

[PamelaIsley]

In my mind summon is not appropriate because a vampire template must be able to be applied to any character, regardless of point value, and summon has an inherent cap. If you choose to have a vampire template replace a previous character's sheet, then you could do it that way, but that would run counter to most takes on vampires. The vampire I have in mind (and the most common depiction, I would argue), adds vampire characteristics on top of a previous character. In other words, you add powers and drawbacks; you don't replace them.

Healing back from a vampire transformation is an issue. If you state "miracle" as the heal-back condition, is that really any less believable than the frog transformation heal back of "kissed by a princess"? Finding a princess in any world is going to be very, very difficult. The reality, of course, is that you don't heal back from being a vampire in most takes on the concept.

Most alternatives proposed here skirt the rules, bend them, or use rule constructions that strike me as bizarre. That brings me back to the point I made before: Hero really can't do a common vampire transformation mechanically. That's a shame. This comes up in a lot of genres (fantasy, pulp, superhero) and really shouldn't be this hard to construct. Even if you use the complication-heavy religious vampire concept, you still run into the heal back problem that gives people pause. And if you try to do a more "modern" take on a vampire without all the esoteric drawbacks (like garlic, running water, religious symbols), you run into the cost issue.

Also, to me, points always matter. Everything must be built according to the rules and everyone must play by the same rules. Otherwise, why use a rule set at all? I don't approve of hand waving or plot devices and any system that forces you to resort to those as a matter of course (rather than convenience) is flawed.

I also don't think this idea is anathema to a point balance system. It's anathema here because of some of the strange decisions Hero makes in power construction (the transform power is simply odd for a number of reasons), but it isn't incompatible with gaming in this kind of system.

[torchwolf]

Hero System has changed a bit in 6th Edition regarding point balancing:
Matching Complications now equal about 20-30% of the total amount used to build a character. This is because there simply isn't much meaning in applying disadvantages of different kinds beyond a certain point, since there is no room in the game to utilize any number of Complications without eventually derailing the focus of a game or a story, so point balancing beyond a certain point can become counterproductive.

Logically, this can also apply to increasing the available points, meaning that to be balanced against the available Character Points to build the abilities, the Matching Complications of this need not be beyond 20-30% of any increase in points.

Even if you don't agree with this, there is another thing to consider about vampires: there are several other possible Complications which are implied but not explicitly expressed in source literature:


Distinctive Features, Detectable with Uncommonly-Used Senses: Supernatural/Undead/Unnatural Aura (Type of Aura and/or Reaction variable depending on source literature)
Negative Reputation (variable as above; likely to be Extreme)
Social Complication (variable as above; usually most people feels there is something odd about the vampire, perhaps causing a -2 to Interactions Skills etc.)

[Sean Waters]

In my mind summon is not appropriate because a vampire template must be able to be applied to any character, regardless of point value, and summon has an inherent cap. If you choose to have a vampire template replace a previous character's sheet, then you could do it that way, but that would run counter to most takes on vampires. The vampire I have in mind (and the most common depiction, I would argue), adds vampire characteristics on top of a previous character. In other words, you add powers and drawbacks; you don't replace them.

Healing back from a vampire transformation is an issue. If you state "miracle" as the heal-back condition, is that really any less believable than the frog transformation heal back of "kissed by a princess"? Finding a princess in any world is going to be very, very difficult. The reality, of course, is that you don't heal back from being a vampire in most takes on the concept.

Most alternatives proposed here skirt the rules, bend them, or use rule constructions that strike me as bizarre. That brings me back to the point I made before: Hero really can't do a common vampire transformation mechanically. That's a shame. This comes up in a lot of genres (fantasy, pulp, superhero) and really shouldn't be this hard to construct. Even if you use the complication-heavy religious vampire concept, you still run into the heal back problem that gives people pause. And if you try to do a more "modern" take on a vampire without all the esoteric drawbacks (like garlic, running water, religious symbols), you run into the cost issue.

Also, to me, points always matter. Everything must be built according to the rules and everyone must play by the same rules. Otherwise, why use a rule set at all? I don't approve of hand waving or plot devices and any system that forces you to resort to those as a matter of course (rather than convenience) is flawed.

I also don't think this idea is anathema to a point balance system. It's anathema here because of some of the strange decisions Hero makes in power construction (the transform power is simply odd for a number of reasons), but it isn't incompatible with gaming in this kind of system.

I'm generally against rules that are in the system just for the sake of balance, but I can see the point with transform. If you can add an unlimited amount of power (or even a limited specific amount) - permanently - everyone is going to want some. As has been suggested if you think through carefully what a 'vampire' is and can balance those additional points with complications, perhaps little harm will be done, but if the power fillup exceeds the additional complications, that is just more points for free - hence my comments.

Summon can work if you know the largest point total of any character likely to be vampirised - but that is kludgy. In 5e you could use a small summon and a 0 END continuous/cumulative succor tot he summon - turning a powerful character would take longer but you could do it. I don't think you can do that in 6e.

Like I say there is a world of difference between building for a vampire in a game and a game about vampires. I don't know how MnM does it, but I'd be surprised if it just gave you a vampire template to tack onto a character unless - as here - that template was balanced as to advantages and disadvantages.

[Sean Waters]

stronger doesn't necessarily mean harder to hurt (vampires have regen, but they can usually be damaged [temporarily] easily enough)

Well, I'd assume that stronger would mean that your body would be strong enough to withstand the stresses of your new strength or you'd rip your arms out of your sockets when you tried to life something heavy. Vampire flesh might not be much harder to cut than human flesh but it should have greater tensile strength - hence it should be just as difficult for a V to pull of another V's head as for a human to pull off a humans.

Perhaps they don't simply pull off an opponent's head - perhaps they grow claws and sever the neck.

[ghost-angel]

That brings me back to the point I made before: Hero really can't do a common vampire transformation mechanically.

No - you're wrong. completely, 100% incorrect. This statement is as false as they come.

What can't happen is a generic "this will work in all games" construct of how to create a vampire - or werewolf, or mummy, or mutant, or any other thing from any source material where one thing is turned into another thing.

You must - absolutely positively no if/ands/buts about it - MUST construct the rules of the Game Being Played first; mechanical-changey-thing second.

[Lucius]

The reality, of course, is that you don't heal back from being a vampire in most takes on the concept.


Which means, basically, that the human-who-was is dead.
Like I said, Prestidigitator nailed it. The victim is killed (either as a prerequisite, or basically as the process of making them a vampire) and the Old Vampire uses a form of Resurrection to bring the character to "life" as a New Vampire.

Whether there is a period during which a non-vampire corpse exists before it becomes New Vampire, or whether New Vampire IS the only corpse because the act of killing the old character and of raising them as a vampire are conceptually identical, is a matter of Special Effects.

Lucius Alexander

Duplicating the palindromedary

[dmjalund]

I always thought that if a character has his points increased because of a "radiation accident"
1) all XP he already has must go to this.
2) any XP he earns, until the increase has been paid off go toward this.
3) until he has paid these XP, he has not "mastered" his new abilities.

I do not see why this would not apply to becoming a vampire

[Greywind]

Old school radiation accident was 50 points that just disappeared so that a player could rewrite his character.

[torchwolf]

I always thought that if a character has his points increased because of a "radiation accident"
1) all XP he already has must go to this.
2) any XP he earns, until the increase has been paid off go toward this.
3) until he has paid these XP, he has not "mastered" his new abilities.

I do not see why this would not apply to becoming a vampire
That solution solves the issue of point balancing by adjusting it gradually.
Good call.

[kahuna's bro]

yes it is

[Lucius]

Old school radiation accident was 50 points that just disappeared so that a player could rewrite his character.

Err...not sure what you mean by "just disappeared" here. The first time I ever saw the phrase was in either Champions II or Champions III, where it suggested saving up, say, 50 points, and then spending them all at once and at the same time rewriting the character with possily all-new Disadvantages and Powers. The points don't disappear, they carry over to the re-written character.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Accident

[PamelaIsley]

No - you're wrong. completely, 100% incorrect. This statement is as false as they come.

What can't happen is a generic "this will work in all games" construct of how to create a vampire - or werewolf, or mummy, or mutant, or any other thing from any source material where one thing is turned into another thing.

You must - absolutely positively no if/ands/buts about it - MUST construct the rules of the Game Being Played first; mechanical-changey-thing second.

Strange response. "You're wrong, Hero can do a vampire transformation. What Hero can't do is a generic vampire transformation."

I'm not wrong. Hero can't handle this simple mechanic without hand-waving. Transform and summon both are improperly constructed to deal with a vampire transformation, unless you substantially change what most people would consider such a transformation.

If you decide that a person turned into a vampire is a completely new being, with none of their old traits, then summon can work. This is not a common vampire conception.

If you decide that all of the mishmash of weaknesses that have ever been mentioned are applicable (whether in combination or not) AND a vampire condition is curable, then transform will work. At least the latter is certainly not a common (or even niche) conception of a vampire transformation.

Hero IS the rule set. I shouldn't have to construct exceptions to Hero's rules in order to use Hero's rule set. If I thought it was worth it, I might bring myself to research how the bizarre transform and summon generic conditions even came about, but I've given up on Hero doing what I want it to do in this case. There simply is little else to say.

[Lord Liaden]

This is just hand waving. You could do that with every concept.

Well, IMHO there's a difference between "hand-waving" and "rules adjustment." ;) The 6E HERO rulebooks are rife with specified exceptions to the default rules "with GM's permission." In fact some of the default rules themselves come with warnings that they can be unbalancing under certain circumstances, so the Game Master should consider whether to include them in the kind of campaign she wants to run. The books even encourage the GM to change rules in whatever way better suits the kind of game she's going for, and offers several examples. Heck, I've seen Steve Long bend his own rule defaults in a number of published character and power constructs to get the effect he was going for, and if it's good enough for the Big Kahuna it's good enough for me. :sneaky:

If you don't want your vampires to be changed back to human form, then Transform in this case doesn't "heal back." This is not rendering Transform unusable -- it still provides a mechanic for the effect, Character Point numbers to pay for it, target number of BODY to be exceeded, possible Defenses if desired. You're simply excluding one element that doesn't belong in the campaign you envision. "Hand-waving" it would be if there was no mechanic for building and balancing this effect, it simply happens... which, BTW, is how several notable games handle being transformed into a vampire. ;)

If your resulting vampire template is more costly in Character Points than you were looking for, raise the starting points of your characters, or give the vampires a "vampire bonus" to help pay for it as a ground rule of being a vampire in your campaign (particularly if vampires are supposed to be more powerful than other types of characters). Complications are supposed to make characters more interesting to play, not to be a strait jacket inhibiting play.

I've seen many newcomers to HERO more concerned with keeping to the letter of the rules than their spirit... and understandably so given the volume and detail of the rules. The rules as given provide a solid, versatile framework for how things work and what fair costs for them should be. But HERO is designed to be adjusted, modified, and stretched in whatever way best suits the experience a particular game group is going for. Not doing so would be putting unnecessary restrictions on the system. :)

Do keep in mind that there have been six editions of the HERO System since it was first created, and every one of them does many things differently from the others. All of them were "official" at one time. Many people prefer the way things were done under one edition over the others, often for very logical reasons; including some of the people who wrote those rules. If the rules-makers can't agree on everything, I feel no guilt over making my own little changes. :eg:

[ghost-angel]

You adapt the Rules to the Campaign, not the other way around.

If Vampires can't "heal back" then the Condition defined is None.

Transform is simple, does exactly what's asked, and works as advertised: transforms one thing into another.

[Lucius]

If you decide that a person turned into a vampire is a completely new being, with none of their old traits, then summon can work.

Summon will also work if you do NOT "decide that a person turned into a vampire is a completely new being, with none of their old traits."

Nothing about Summon requires you to decide that.



If you decide that all of the mishmash of weaknesses that have ever been mentioned are applicable (whether in combination or not) AND a vampire condition is curable, then transform will work.


And you don't need "all of the mishmash of weaknesses that have ever been mentioned" to make Transform work either.

It's just that if you want

Phenomenal, Cosmic, Power!!!
:king:
:earth:

without any corresponding drawbacks, it will cost you

Phenomenal, Cosmic, Points!!!

You don't get a free lunch just for saying "Vampire!" any more than Superman gets a free lunch just for saying "Kryptonian!"
In fact, I think a lot of people would say using Transform this way is a pretty generous deal: Piling on the Powers just for rolling a higher target number on a Power that's already Cumulative?


People have been building vampires in Hero since the early days of Champions more than 20 years ago, and as far as I know, Transform has been the usual means of doing what you're trying to do. I'm not sure I agree it's the best way, but it's worked well enough for a lot of people for a long time.

And I notice you haven't even addressed the proposal to do it via Ressurection, although at this point I have to say I'm sure you'll find fault with that too.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thought it was getting a free lunch, but that's because I'd already paid for it.

[mallet]

Yah, it would be nice to hear what PamelIsley would consider an acceptable solution or perhaps give as an example of another system that handles the vampire transformation to her liking so we can have a clear understanding of what she is looking for.

I haven't played WoD in a long time, but I seem to recall that changing in to a vampire in that system (and if any system should have good rules for changing into a vampire, it should be a game called Vampire) all that had to happen is that through the storyline a normal human is drained down to no blood by a vampire, then the vampire feeds 3 points of blood back into the person. The person then sleeps for a few day (maybe makes a Willpower check to see if they survive the transformation?) then the GM gives them a set number of new "freebie points" to spend on buying up stats, disciplines, etc... and the newly created vampire has all the normal flaws and benefits of a vampire for the game, plus their clan flaw, plus they are blood bonded to their sire.

If that is the vampire creation "base line" then the equivalent would be that the vampire would have to Drain the victims BODY down to 0, then Heal the victim 3 BODY (at the cost of 3 BODY to himself) then the victim would make a CON or EGO roll to see if they survived the process. After that the GM would give the new vampire a set number of XP points to spend on stats, plus give the player a choice of one of three free standard abilities that the GM has already pre-made, then give the player his new standard vampire abilities that all vamps get (again for free) and then give him the Complications a standard vampire in the setting would have, plus one special pre-made Complication that fits the new Vampires "clan".

Now an easier way of doing that would be that after the victim makes his/her CON or EGO roll to survive the transformation(lets not use that word, it seems to have a bad rep around here) "change into a vampire" then all you need to do is add the Vampire Package Deal to the character and voila, done.

No system that I know of has a simple single power for turning a normal person into a Vampire. That is because A) it changes the person into a super being so of course points won't match up in that case. If they did, then the new vampire would have so many flaws that they would be unplayable. So the GM has to give free points to the character to make it work. B) Something so storyline changing is never left up to chance in any role-playing game. Either the GM wants the player turned into a vampire or he doesn't. If he does then he is fine with giving out the free points, if he's not, then the situation would never happen. He/she might leave it up to a skill roll to see if it happens, but that's a pretty poor GM in my opinion. As for NPC's, well that is why there is the CON/EGO roll to see if they survive the transformation or not. If they do, then bamm new powerful NPC vampire, if they don't, then dead NPC.

I would really like to see or hear about any system out there that does it differently because as far as I know, and I've played a lot of different systems, none of them handle it without some GM hand waving and a lot of bonus points for the character.

[bigbywolfe]

I think I might be slightly confused. You dismiss anything that involves "hand-waving" yet what you are looking for seems to be a book legal way to make a single character permanently more powerful than everyone else who started at the same amount of points. Even if you come up with a satisfactory and book legal way to do this, considering that it empowers characters in a way that potentially unbalances the game, it still falls strictly into the “only with GM permission”, does it not?

[casualplayer]

Reverse engineer the Vampire template and design it to be zero-sum. If being a vampire means that you are Bloodbound to your sire until you find the will to resist or rebel, then you have a Psych Com (Common, Total) that provides 15 points toward buying vampire abilities and is imposed on the character until they buy off the Complication with XP. If vampires are allergic to religious paraphernalia or sunlight, more points for bennies. Phys Com: Can only feed on fresh blood, more points. Distinctive Features: Hot Topic poster child, more points. Lather, rinse, repeat until you have a guilt free, net bupkus package you can slap on anybody. Or strip away.

[rreay]

The problem you (the OP) are running into is fundamental to the system. We track points as kind of a rating of effectiveness for PCs and NPCs. With that we can try and maintain balance between PCs and to have a quick and dirty way to compare characters. You are trying to add effectiveness (stronger, faster, tougher) to a target character permanently by spending points on an attacking character. The normal way that effectiveness is gained permanently is accomplished is to make the character getting more effective pay the points for those powers and skills. There is no RAW (Rules As Written) to accomplish what you want to do because it's against the basis of the system.

To do it you need to get a little meta about the system and figure out what you want. You want a vampire version of someone to be more powerful than the non-vamp version of that person. You want vampires to be able to turn others into vampires and you want vampires to pay a fair amount for that ability. You want PCs that are transformed to remain playable.

People have suggested summon or transform with a bit of modification. From my point of view those are perfectly fine ways to go if the target isn't playable afterwards. If you let the new vamp remain playable you have a point imbalance to deal with. Some groups are just fine with that kind of imbalance, but it takes very mature players who understand the system well and can play to concept. A lot of groups have problems due to point envy.

I can suggest another possibility. First, make them more powerful by making the character being changed pay the cost of al the new abilities. It's the fair by the book way. If it's a PC they spend XP or if they don't have it, they borrow XP and buy the abilities. This kind of character rewrite was often called a radiation accident in older rulesets. If the target is an NPC they they pay the points for it but NPCs are easier, the GM assigns NPC points as appropriate. So the GM can add the points or make them disappear to "earn them"

Second to make the attacking character pay for the ability you're going to have to estimate a price. Find a way to come up with what you think a fair price is. You can start with the cost of having bought this a Transform or a Summon. Alternatively you can treat it as a perk. Compare the utility to the various perks that exist, it's kind of like Access, and it's kind of like Fringe Benefit. Is this more or less useful than Diplomatic Immunity, License to Kill, something like that? Then call it a new perk: Vampire Transform 10 pts

[torchwolf]

Yah, it would be nice to hear what Pamela Isley would consider an acceptable solution or perhaps give as an example of another system that handles the vampire transformation to her liking so we can have a clear understanding of what she is looking for.
Ditto this.

However, so far it has been stated that Pamela want to build a Twilight-type vampire (presumably based more on the books than the movies), which have various standard abilities (stronger, faster, tough, enhanced senses) and little in the way of the traditional weaknesses of vampires.
The Twilight vampire concept point-balances poorly, of course - lots of abilities and few corresponding weaknesses, which could be called a free lunch.

The concept itself is very possible to build in the Hero System as a template, but the ability to make another vampire can be done several ways in the system, none of which seems to be satisfactory to what Pamela wants. I think that representing this ability in the template is the snag Pamela is unhappy with.
I'm not going to argue or anything, just a theory which could well be wrong. :)


I haven't played WoD in a long time, but I seem to recall that changing in to a vampire in that system (and if any system should have good rules for changing into a vampire, it should be a game called Vampire) all that had to happen is that through the storyline a normal human is drained down to no blood by a vampire, then the vampire feeds 3 points of blood back into the person. The person then sleeps for a few day (maybe makes a Willpower check to see if they survive the transformation?) then the GM gives them a set number of new "freebie points" to spend on buying up stats, disciplines, etc... and the newly created vampire has all the normal flaws and benefits of a vampire for the game, plus their clan flaw, plus they are blood bonded to their sire.


If that is the vampire creation "base line" then the equivalent would be that the vampire would have to Drain the victims BODY down to 0, then Heal the victim 3 BODY (at the cost of 3 BODY to himself) then the victim would make a CON or EGO roll to see if they survived the process. After that the GM would give the new vampire a set number of XP points to spend on stats, plus give the player a choice of one of three free standard abilities that the GM has already pre-made, then give the player his new standard vampire abilities that all vamps get (again for free) and then give him the Complications a standard vampire in the setting would have, plus one special pre-made Complication that fits the new Vampires "clan".
There are a few other Complications which are specific to the WoD (I assume you mean the "classic" WoD - I have no clue as to the newer ones). Interestingly enough, these are more distinctly defined in GURPS The Masquerade than in the original rules. In any case, these help balance the issue, along with the single most important thing in the WoD "balance of terror": becoming a vampire costs your character all other supernatural abilities he had, or in the case of some beings, just kills him permanently instead.
In other words, you can't have your old cake and your new one, too.


Now an easier way of doing that would be that after the victim makes his/her CON or EGO roll to survive the transformation(lets not use that word, it seems to have a bad rep around here) "change into a vampire" then all you need to do is add the Vampire Package Deal to the character and voila, done.
In the WoD, this is not exactly true - applying the template also requires you to remove some abilities you already had.
In other settings, this may or may not be true.
In the Twilight vampire example, Pamela Isley said that becoming such a vampire instead seems to improve abilities you already possess, which could be represented by adding a pool of distributable points to the template, assigning the points to improve the character's original assets.


No system that I know of has a simple single power for turning a normal person into a Vampire. That is because A) it changes the person into a super being so of course points won't match up in that case. If they did, then the new vampire would have so many flaws that they would be unplayable. So the GM has to give free points to the character to make it work. B) Something so storyline changing is never left up to chance in any role-playing game. Either the GM wants the player turned into a vampire or he doesn't. If he does then he is fine with giving out the free points, if he's not, then the situation would never happen. He/she might leave it up to a skill roll to see if it happens, but that's a pretty poor GM in my opinion. As for NPC's, well that is why there is the CON/EGO roll to see if they survive the transformation or not. If they do, then bamm new powerful NPC vampire, if they don't, then dead NPC.
In campaigns with all-vampire PCs this would probably not be a problem, neither would a mixed WoD campaign where the PCs all play extremely powerful beings, even if they start out weaker (normals not yet become vampires, turning werewolf for the first time, learning magick, etc.).


I would really like to see or hear about any system out there that does it differently because as far as I know, and I've played a lot of different systems, none of them handle it without some GM hand waving and a lot of bonus points for the character.
It can be done in a campaign, of course. I've experimented with mixed genres within the same campaign world, including turning some superheroes into vampires, but this was all with GM-player cooperation and the understanding it might not work out. As it turned out though, introducing WoD-style vampires into a superhero setting didn't result in imbalance, because everyone agreed being a superhero was a much easier life than having an unlife as a vampire.

Depending on the scenarios you run, point imbalance may not matter much. A mystery scenario has everyone on equal footing regardless if they are vampires or sickly elderly gentlemen, the only important power being information. Assuming everyone has a function to fulfill, insisting on point balance may actually be detrimental to a campaign; or many values given may need to be adjusted; or everything works perfectly right from the start.

Everyone who has played RPGs before should be familiar with how seldom everything works perfectly right out of the box, and everyone will have at least slightly different interpretations.
The Hero System solves this be acknowledging these things, and instead attempts to accomodate the GM in adjusting details to fit the campaign.

As for game systems, I know quite a few systems too, and I have yet to see a good system for balancing points being able to handle an unbalanced concept well. Being unable to do this is indicative of a well working system, in my mind - what any character design system really does is compare effectiveness.

The only real balancing factor in any RPG is, after all, the GM.

[Lucius]

Actually, it' s not quite true that there is no way for one character to "add points" to another.
We've discussed several of them, including the use of Transform.

One thing we haven't talked much about yet is the Usable By Others Advantage, and since this thread has gotten me intrigued with the idea of vampire creation, I'm playing around with that idea now. I'll probably have something to propose later. I will say that it looks as if it will work!


Reverse engineer ....{snip}

We've been over this ground, and I'm in agreement with Ms. Isley about why that bat won't fly.

We're talking about a situation where Character Bob Notavampire is simply and
unavoidably worth fewer points than Character Bob Nowavampire.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary observes that there's more than one way to skin a bat.

[Lord Liaden]

Here's a thought: One of the guiding principles of HERO System is "you get what you pay for," i.e. things that are more or less useful should cost more or less points. The game also explicitly makes allowances for adding new Powers, Advantages etc. if we believe the existing ones don't adequately model what we're trying to achieve.

So, if someone wants to permanently, irreversibly transform someone into, say, a vampire; and said person doesn't want to violate the default proscription against this in the description of Transform; how about a Custom Advantage for Transform, Permanent (Does Not Heal Back)? Based on examples of some of the more extreme Advantages and Limitations in the game, I'd say something between +1 and +2 would be a fair price for this added utility, depending on how strictly you define Permanent. At the lower end of the range, perhaps it might still be possible to reverse the Transformation through extraordinary measures, but those measures would not be readily apparent or easily available (rather like destroying an Unbreakable Focus).

[Lucius]

Here is something I worked up in Hero Designer for 21 points.

Create Vampire (Differing Modifiers): Inheritance (Dispel and Adjustment Powers function as if the Power belonged to the Recipient; +1/4), Lasts Through Unconsciousness (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Up to 8 Recipients (+3/4), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (425 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Limited Power Set Effect: Must grant all basic Vampire powers, plus Complications, as a group; only on someone who has been blood drained to 1 BOD or less. (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (- 3 BOD; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) for up to 100 Points of Vampire Powers

Assumes vampire package totalling 100 pts

Normally, Dispelling the Recipient of a Power Usable On Others deprives the Recipient of the Power until the Grantor grants it again; "Inheritance" (a deliberate play on "Inherent" which costs the same and would make it not Dispellabel at all) is a custom Advantage to make Dispel work as if the Power belonged to the Recipient, i.e. they can activate it again themselves. Or you could just use Inherent, and they can't be Dispelled at all.

"Lasts through Unconsciousness" is the Advantage listed in the book (Six Ed) that maintains the power if the Recipient is Stunned, knocked out, or just lies down for a nap.

The assumption seems to be that Usable as Attaack powers can only effect one at a time; at least, Hero Designer doesn't have it as a menu option to effect more, but the book doesn't seem to forbid it.
I figured 8 is enough. I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.

Possible defences include not having blood, already undead, etc.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Usable as Attack

[ghost-angel]

Here's a thought: One of the guiding principles of HERO System is "you get what you pay for," i.e. things that are more or less useful should cost more or less points. The game also explicitly makes allowances for adding new Powers, Advantages etc. if we believe the existing ones don't adequately model what we're trying to achieve.

So, if someone wants to permanently, irreversibly transform someone into, say, a vampire; and said person doesn't want to violate the default proscription against this in the description of Transform; how about a Custom Advantage for Transform, Permanent (Does Not Heal Back)? Based on examples of some of the more extreme Advantages and Limitations in the game, I'd say something between +1 and +2 would be a fair price for this added utility, depending on how strictly you define Permanent. At the lower end of the range, perhaps it might still be possible to reverse the Transformation through extraordinary measures, but those measures would not be readily apparent or easily available (rather like destroying an Unbreakable Focus).

Because according to Pamela, as far as I can gather, if it's not explicitly written down in the book word for word it does not count as a rule that can be used and is therefore some form of "handwave" or something.

Which is counter intuitive to the very basis of the Hero System in the first place. . . .

[casualplayer]

We've been over this ground, and I'm in agreement with Ms. Isley about why that bat won't fly.

We're talking about a situation where Character Bob Notavampire is simply and
unavoidably worth fewer points than Character Bob Nowavampire.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary observes that there's more than one way to skin a bat.

Okey dokey, but I'm not all that worked up about a 50 pt Normal with 0 Complications suddenly becoming a 150 pt Vampire with 100 pts of Complications, until they buy them down some with XP. As long as the GM works the Complications, there should be no net difference or even player preference.

The drawbacks to being a vampire have to be worse than the advantages or the nasty buggers will go viral. You have to build in some sort of control in your game or you end up with a bunch of accidental or slipshod bloodsuckers. Commonality destroys the mystique. So the transformation either has to be chancy, draining, difficult or costly. Perhaps there's a social restriction on making more or an obligation to be responsible for your children. Perhaps birthing a vampire is as taxing as birthing a child? Perhaps a freshly created vampire notifies everyone with ears to listen that easy prey can be found here?

What I'm suggesting is that perhaps the parent vampire shoulders some of the negative points through added Complications to pay for the spawn's gain in abilities, and they can tackle the deficit from both sides through earning XP?

[dmjalund]

Being unable to disobay your sires commands would dissuade most independent thinking players

[PamelaIsley]

Being unable to disobay your sires commands would dissuade most independent thinking players

This is not a common vampire drawback (I'm only familiar with it in DnD rules). Even Dracula's vampire brides in the original novel had a rebellious spirit (the blonde stands up to Dracula over Harker at one point). This also isn't really part of Anne Rice or Twilight conceptions.

And yes, ghost-angel was right, my goal was to build the vampire template using the rules. As I've said a few times, I've given up.

[ghost-angel]

I think what you haven't gotten yet is that it is both time honored, and well within the spirit of the rules to Make Stuff Up.

If, for instance, the "Heal Back Condition" is giving you fits you need to get rid of it. Either just doing so, or creating a custom Advantage as was suggested at least once, is Part Of The Rules.

With a rule system built around Base + Modifiers to achieve affects there is no possible way the writers could ever conceive of every possible way to modify anything, and the players are left to their own creative devices. That IS the rules. Plain and simple.

Which makes "+0 Advantage - No In Fact You Don't Heal" just as RAW as anything else.
(or a more likely need where Transform needs to also behave with Healing; "+1 Advantage - No Healing Condition")

[Lucius]

And yes, ghost-angel was right, my goal was to build the vampire template using the rules. As I've said a few times, I've given up.

At least partly based on misunderstanding the rules.

For example, your reason for rejecting Summon is not based on anything in the rules.

And I don't think you've addressed at all the proposals to use Resurrection or Differing Modifiers.

But feel free to "give up" - no one can force you not to.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary sees another way to approach the effect but I don't know if it's worth pursuing...

[steamteck]

Okey dokey, but I'm not all that worked up about a 50 pt Normal with 0 Complications suddenly becoming a 150 pt Vampire with 100 pts of Complications, until they buy them down some with XP. As long as the GM works the Complications, there should be no net difference or even player preference.



Pretty much how I see it. I use transform and preserve the character's "value" if you will as you describe above.

[PamelaIsley]

For example, your reason for rejecting Summon is not based on anything in the rules.



When you design a summoning power, you must specify the total point value of the thing being summoned. Besides the conceptual nightmare (that something new is being created rather than something being transformed into something different), this means that a vampire transform must either be so powerful as to represent any possible point value + the cost of the vampire template, or that the new vampire is going to lose some of its old abilities.

Hence my point that summoning can only effectively represent a vampire transformation where you imagine that the result of the transformation does not contain all of the character sheet of the original target. A vampire template is added to existing abilities, that's why summoning's cap (based on the points spent on the power) does not mesh very well with what I consider a vampire transformation. I feel like this point has been made a bunch of times over the course of this thread.

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works, so I don't have a rebuttal.

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.

[ghost-angel]

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works, so I don't have a rebuttal.

That's easy - when you come back from the dead you just change how points were spent.

If you're at a deficit (and this works for any system used to make up for any accounting where you need to work with a Character Point Total) you either 1) apply Complications to "pay" for the deficiency (not the method I would actually recommend) or 2) simply "lock up" all future XP expenditures until the deficit is paid off.

Now, this point redistribution may in fact strip a character of some abilities, freeing up points to spend on Vampiric Abilities, or it may come about from a long planned saving of XP and the GM performing some in game event that causes what is commonly known in Comic Book Circles as "the radiation accident" where the Character is nearly completely rewritten.

And one more time: creating an Advantage to remove the Heal Back Condition is not "changing the rules" is it fact "Using The Rules."

[Lord Liaden]

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.



And one more time: creating an Advantage to remove the Heal Back Condition is not "changing the rules" is it fact "Using The Rules."

This is the crux of the dichotomy on this thread. Two conceptions of what is meant by "the rules" which don't appear to be reconcilable. If the horse isn't alive by this point, I seriously doubt beating it any further will animate it. :dh:

[Greywind]

This is the crux of the dichotomy on this thread. Two conceptions of what is meant by "the rules" which don't appear to be reconcilable. If the horse isn't alive by this point, I seriously doubt beating it any further will animate it. :dh:...but you can regenerate it into a vampiric horse...

[Panpiper]

...but you can regenerate it into a vampiric horse...

No... No... You 'transform' it into a vampiric horse!

;-)

[dmjalund]

I think this is what we've been getting at. the rules as written says you can't Tranform a dead being into a living being. So we transform it into a dead vampire being (dead vampire beings don't heal back BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD) THEN you use resurrection to turn it into a living (or technically undead) vampire being.

[ghost-angel]

This is the crux of the dichotomy on this thread. Two conceptions of what is meant by "the rules" which don't appear to be reconcilable. If the horse isn't alive by this point, I seriously doubt beating it any further will animate it. :dh:

Meh.

I reference: Hero System Sixth Edtion, Combat And Adventuring Chapter Ten "Changing The System" pp 296-305. For added bang, "Adapting The Rules To Your Game" p 298
Defense rests.

[Lucius]

I think this is what we've been getting at. the rules as written says you can't Tranform a dead being into a living being. So we transform it into a dead vampire being (dead vampire beings don't heal back BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD) THEN you use resurrection to turn it into a living (or technically undead) vampire being.

That point's been made before, and I keep forgetting it.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks I should make a handy chart to keep track of all the arguments

[Sidetrack]

Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.

If that's the remaining hangup with Transform, a few reasonable heal back conditions have been suggested. My personal preference for generic vampire heal back would be:

Divine, Infernal or appropriately powerful supernatural intervention,
death or destruction,
successful transform to a Human (very rare power requiring appropriate concept)
(concurrent with) successful Transform to other supernatural being (No vampire-zombie or vampire-werewolf hybrids),
and incomplete transforms heal normally
Note: Vampiric immortality does not extend human life i.e. a 300year old vampire will be healed to the 200 year old corpse of a 100 year old human.

That is a list of rare and incovenient conditions, but arguably they add up to what they need to be: a reasonable set of healing conditions that IMHO fit the generic concept of a vampire very well.


[...]kill the character first then transform the corpse. Inanimate objects/dead things do not heal transform damage :) You're not supposed to give or take life with Transform but you are not - you start with a corpse and end with a vampire - which is still, technically, dead, although animate.

This also fits my concept of a generic vampire, but if it's not Twilightish so be it, don't use it. I'm sure there are some conditions of a modern non-religious Twilight vampire that would fit the bill that you could apply.

As I see it, Hero Rules try to impose balance on your game so strict adherence keeps you from creating an unbalanced situation. If you're having trouble fitting your concept to the rules, check it to see if it unbalances things and make your peace with that.

[Lucius]

I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works, so I don't have a rebuttal.

Like this

Raise Vampire: Healing BODY 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Resurrection, Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the recipient of the benefits of the Power; rises as a vampire; +0) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), Conditional Power Must have drained blood from the victim three times on three consecutive nights. (-1), Resurrection Only (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Lose 1 BOD Drained that doesn't recover for 5 years; -1/2), Limited Power Only Heals to 50% positive BOD (-1/4) Real Cost: 17

Basically, Varney the Vampire kills Veronica Victim, then Resurrects her, but the Resurrecting Power has a Side Effect that means the raised person comes back as a vampire. The Side Effect isn't worth anything as a Limitation because from the vampire's point of view (and he's paying for it) it's not necessarily a bad thing.



Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.


And I'm coming around to thinking maybe you were right the first time. All you really have to do to make it work is define the heal back as "normal healing" (which means if you can keep Veronica Victim away from Varney the Vampire after he's started by before the change is complete, for a long enough time, she recovers and Varney needs to start over) but ensure that a vampire's healing isn't "normal," that is, put a Limitation (perhaps -0) on REC and Healing and whatever else the vampire has that is used for healing, that says it can't undo the Transformation. Or even do what I've already seen for Mental Transforms, where the only "healback" is defined as ANOTHER Transformation.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks vampires are a pain in the necks.

[Sean Waters]

Human to vampire: Severe Transform 1d6, Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Limited Power (Doesn't keep on adding new powers but total does accumulate for healing purposes) (37 Active Points)

BODY+100 points (say) go to transforming the character into a vampire with additional abilities, the rest, well...thing is, whilst it CAN be healed back, it keeps on accumulating, so it is likely to take a VERY long time to 'untransform'.

Think about it: you get bitten, over the course of a day and a night (24 hours) the 'transform total' (assuming even a SPD 2) would be 50400, which, even if you applied whatever it takes to 'break' the uncontrolled would still take 420 years to heal back if you have a REC of 10. Maybe that is why new vamps spend time in the coffin :)

You could also adapt this to allow very old vamps to gain new powers. Effectively what you have here is an infection that keeps on going. Bear in mind that, even if the curse is 'broken' it is going to take a VERY long time for you to stop being a vampire and that is assuming you do not get re-infected before you become human again.

There you go, that works.

[Sean Waters]

OK, technically that doesn't work because you don;t have to heal the 'damage rolled' just the damage that transformed you...so we change it slightly to make the transform ongoing...

Severe Transform 1d6 (Victim to vampire, Healing Body), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Partial Transform (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points)

As it is a partial transform you should have to heal back everything rolled. That's a silly rule anyway, given that you can chose how you untransform. Still...this does allow you to build vampires that are constantly getting more powerful as they get older more easily.

[Sean Waters]

I suppose you could have a normal transform with the 'heal back' condition being a stake through the heart. Then you'd stop being a vamp and become a human - with a stake through your heart :)

[ghost-angel]

I suppose you could have a normal transform with the 'heal back' condition being a stake through the heart. Then you'd stop being a vamp and become a human - with a stake through your heart :)

Apparently that (or the similar Death = Heal Back) clause failed some test. What test, I dunno, but it failed.

[Sean Waters]

Apparently that (or the similar Death = Heal Back) clause failed some test. What test, I dunno, but it failed.

Transform isn't supposed to be fatal, and I suppose that kinda makes it fatal :)

[AmadanNaBriona]

To add to the thought mix...
OK, so you can't transform something dead into something living.... But most Vampire builds include Regeneration with the Resurrection Adder. So Transform the Dead Human into a Dead Vampire and let it's own Regen bring the new Vamp back

[ghost-angel]

Transform isn't supposed to be fatal, and I suppose that kinda makes it fatal :)

Except that Major Transform (15pts/D6) is modeled exactly on Killing Damage as "Changing something fundamentally you might as well kill it" is even the reasoning given. So.. in a way, it is supposed to be fatal.

And it's not the Transform that's fatal, so that's a non-issue anyways, IMO.

[prestidigitator]

Oh hell! If the campaign calls for it, just say that a human killing a human results in death, but a vampire killing a human results in vampirism (or results in vampirism IF vampire is fed blood or whatever special conditions apply). Really the transformation could be seen as either positive or negative from the vampire's point of view, depending on whether the new vampire is compelled or tied somehow to its creator, or is simply the cost of killing someone, or whatever.

Or write it up as any of the above. They would all work. Remember there's rarely only one right way to do a given thing.

You guys worry WAY too much!

[jtelson]

Human to vampire: Severe Transform 1d6, Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Limited Power (Doesn't keep on adding new powers but total does accumulate for healing purposes) (37 Active Points)

BODY+100 points (say) go to transforming the character into a vampire with additional abilities, the rest, well...thing is, whilst it CAN be healed back, it keeps on accumulating, so it is likely to take a VERY long time to 'untransform'.

Think about it: you get bitten, over the course of a day and a night (24 hours) the 'transform total' (assuming even a SPD 2) would be 50400, which, even if you applied whatever it takes to 'break' the uncontrolled would still take 420 years to heal back if you have a REC of 10. Maybe that is why new vamps spend time in the coffin :)

You could also adapt this to allow very old vamps to gain new powers. Effectively what you have here is an infection that keeps on going. Bear in mind that, even if the curse is 'broken' it is going to take a VERY long time for you to stop being a vampire and that is assuming you do not get re-infected before you become human again.

There you go, that works.

Add a Side Effect (The Same Transform but to Self) to the Vampire's Bite Attack - and require using the bite to feed - Reduces the Template cost a little and keeps the well fed vampire a vampire?

[jtelson]

...or maybe a susceptibility to feeding that maintains the transform...

[kahuna's bro]

it thoughtof someting,he nota twilight vampire but if someone has the stats for MICK ST. JAMES the vampire hero of the tvseries MOONLIGHT if yousaw THEM would that help you build an apropriate template?

[Lord Liaden]

k-b, I suspect that Pamela isn't responding to this thread any more. She's explained her position and appears to have moved on. It's now just a bunch of HEROphiles engaged in that most time-honored pursuit in our community, debating permutations of the system. ;)

[kahuna's bro]

i see

[Sean Waters]

Just because we've scared off the OP with our overenthusiasm is no reason to stop. Is it?

:sneaky:

[Lord Liaden]

Never said it was.

[Lucius]

Just because we've scared off the OP with our overenthusiasm is no reason to stop. Is it?

:sneaky:

I'd even come around to the position that she was "right the first time" and Transform is the Power to use.

Which doesn't mean I'm not interested in the alternatives.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks vampires are a pain in the necks.

[ghost-angel]

I think for any campaign where a PC is going to become a Vampire, or control a Vampire - then yes. Transform is the Power to use (IMO).

but, for games where you want more of a Plot Device Control aspect to it, i.e. it's of more use in driving the story than it is part of the campaign world, then the Resurrection idea is really neat. Especially if it's just a reason for a (to borrow a Champions concept) 'radiation accident' more than anything else.

[prestidigitator]

The way you do this is as follows. Vampires do not have the ability to transform other people into more vampires. Rather, every normal human in the campaign world has an Everyman Healing Resurrection that brings them back to life, but with a permanent Side Effect and limited to only work under a very special condition: being killed by a vampire's blood drain (and optionally being fed some of the vampire's own blood or whatever the source material warrants).

There. Problem solved. You don't even have to build it into the vampire, so there are a few extra points to spend on some kind of awesome mist form or something. ;) :p

[drsid]

Having just perused through Urban Fantasy Hero, there is a Vampire "package" in the book, though if I understand correctly, its 5th edition. I'd just post the package here, but I'm not sure if that violates copyright rules and such.

[Lord Liaden]

The Hero Games management is generally okay with small textual snippets from their books being transcribed here, as within the bounds of "fair use"; but have expressed disapproval of their copyrighted, published game-mechanical write-ups (for characters, tech, spells and the like) being reproduced on an open forum, especially if the books they're from are still in print. Methinks it would be better form to let it slide.

But thank you for the offer. :)