Megamovement DCV errata ?

[Crypt]

As seen on 6E2p24, Velocity Based DCV, each X2 velocity = +2DCV
(actually this is the same as the VF found in APG p178)
So each increment of velocity X (Square root of 2) equals +1 DCV.

So i think there is a trouble with the Megamovement Velocity Based DCV (6E1p157) ==>
1 level of MegMov: DCV 19
2 level of MegMov: DCV 39
....+1 level : +20 DCV

I think it should be:
1 level : DCV 20 (or +20 DCV for a fair and accurate DCV...but that's another story)
2 levels : DCV 27 (or +27...)
....+1 level : +7 DCV (or +6.6 DCV)
....+3 levels: +20 DCV

Explanation:
The first level of MegMov is X1000 distance.
(Square root of 2)^20 = 1024 so the first level = DCV 20

+1 level of MegMov is X10 distance.
(Square root of 2)^7 = 11 so each level increment = +7 DCV


note:
(Square root of 2)^19 = 724. The ^20 version is closer to the needed X1000 result.
(Square root of 2)^6 = 8. The ^7 version is closer to the needed X10 result.

PS: please read the whole post before answering. Thanks :):)

[Greywind]

Can't it just be arbitrary? :p

[Crypt]

No, it can't.
You may round the +7 to +10 if you prefer.
But, unless i made a mistake the official +20 is not arbitrary, it's just wrong.

[Matt Holck]

As seen on 6E2p24, Velocity Based DCV, each X2 velocity = +2DCV

so each 6 points of dex means the character dodges twice as fast
oh wait

[Crypt]

so each 6 points of dex means the character dodges twice as fast
oh wait

a little bit off topic......and CVs are no longer based on Dex/3 in the 6E.

[the fox]

and wrong by a considerable margin?
I can see where they got the 19 instead of 20; 1,000 is nearly 1,024; perhaps they did the math differently, actually converting x1,000 into a power of 2,
and not approximating like you are with whole factors of 2.
but clearly +20 is nothing like +7 or 6.6!

[Crypt]

Steve said: "The table on 6E1 157 is correct."

So i have a problem here. I don't see how this table may be correct.

6E2p24, on the Velocity Based DCV, each X2 velocity = +2DCV so each X1000 velocity = +20 DCV.
64m/t: 1 DCV
125 : 3 DCV
250 : 5 DCV
500 : 7 DCV
1000: 9 DCV
2000: 11 DCV
4000: 13 DCV
8000: 15 DCV
16000: 17 DCV
32000: 19 DCV
64000: 21 DCV

Each level of Mega movement beyond the first one is X10 distance so i don't understand how it could give +20 DCV...(which is related to X1000 distance, not X10 ! )
The 6E1 p157 table doesn't follow the 6E2 p24 rule.

:help:

[Kristopher]

More importantly, going faster can just as easily make you easier to hit, as any turns you make will take more time and space -- your path is easier to predict over a unit of time.

[Crypt]

More importantly, going faster can just as easily make you easier to hit, as any turns you make will take more time and space -- your path is easier to predict over a unit of time.

So ?

[Kristopher]

So ?

So going faster doesn't necessarily make you harder to hit.

[dmjalund]

64m/t: 1 DCV
64000: 21 DCV
so x1000 = +20 DCV
(and no i don't think the ability to move faster in a given direction makes you easier to hit any more than your reduced DCV for being in non-combat movement)

[Crypt]

64m/t: 1 DCV
64000: 21 DCV
so x1000 = +20 DCV


That's for the first level of megamovement. (+1 advantage in 6E)
Each level thereafter multiply the distance per 10, not 1000.
(6E1p157; 6E1p341 and 6E2p24.)
So the second level of megamov (+1 1/4 advantage in 6E) = X10.000 = 10km. This level should equal 27 DCV, not 39.

Look at the first post...



So going faster doesn't necessarily make you harder to hit. Maybe but that's not helpful here...

[Simon]

You're making multiple assumptions here in order to come up with the statement of "it's wrong/inconsistent"

First and foremost, you're assuming that the DCV bonuses _should_ be the same for both forms of Movement. Where you come up with this notion is beyond me. Megamovement is _decidedly_ different from normal movement. See scaling. Why is it difficult to accept that there are different DCV bonus structures in place for different forms of Movement?

[Crypt]

Why is it difficult to accept that there are different DCV bonus structures in place for different forms of Movement? For the same speed MegaMov would give a better DCV ???
That's non-sense.
One rule for this case, another for this other case.......sometimes Hero may be very ugly.

[Simon]

Watch your tone.

Makes perfect sense to me. As luck would have it, it makes sense to Steve Long as well. Frankly, I don't see what the confusion is - it works for both game balance and dramatic sense.

[Greywind]

For the same speed MegaMov would give a better DCV ???Depends on the needs of the game in question.

That's non-sense. No. That's just one opinion

One rule for this case, another for this other case.......sometimes Hero may be very ugly.Not ugly. Just a system. If it doesn't work for you, change it in your game.

[Ice9]

I really can't see how it would make sense. We're not talking about moving at normal speed vs moving at megaspeed - we're talking about moving at 12km/phase because you bought megascale running, vs moving at 12km/phase because you bought a huge non-combat multiplier for your running. One is not faster than the other, and I can see no reason one would have a different DCV result.

It would be like saying that +30 STR from Growth gave you a different lifting capacity than +30 STR from Aid.

[bigbywolfe]

I really can't see how it would make sense. We're not talking about moving at normal speed vs moving at megaspeed - we're talking about moving at 12km/phase because you bought megascale running, vs moving at 12km/phase because you bought a huge non-combat multiplier for your running. One is not faster than the other, and I can see no reason one would have a different DCV result.

It would be like saying that +30 STR from Growth gave you a different lifting capacity than +30 STR from Aid.
If you Megascale a Movement Power with a Turn-Mode such as Flight, doesn’t the Turn-Mode Megascale as well? In other words, if you buy Flight Megascaled so that each unit of Flight = 1km then you measure how much space it takes to turn in km, right? Whereas, if you buy Flight with Increased Non-Combat Movement up to the same speed/distance, you still have a Turn-Mode but it’s measured in Hexes (or Meters or whatever). It may be a Turn-Mode, but it’s turning on a dime compared to the Megascale character/vehicle going the same speed. This doesn’t really have anything to do with “Megamovement DCV” other than to illustrate that there are differences between Megamovement and regular movement (unless I’m completely mis-remembering how Turn-Mode and Megascale interact).

[Crypt]

If you Megascale a Movement Power with a Turn-Mode such as Flight, doesn’t the Turn-Mode Megascale as well? In other words, if you buy Flight Megascaled so that each unit of Flight = 1km then you measure how much space it takes to turn in km, right? Whereas, if you buy Flight with Increased Non-Combat Movement up to the same speed/distance, you still have a Turn-Mode but it’s measured in Hexes (or Meters or whatever). It may be a Turn-Mode, but it’s turning on a dime compared to the Megascale character/vehicle going the same speed. This doesn’t really have anything to do with “Megamovement DCV” other than to illustrate that there are differences between Megamovement and regular movement (unless I’m completely mis-remembering how Turn-Mode and Megascale interact).

Then Megamovement should give even less DCV than regular movement because it's harder to dodge (turn) while "megamoving"

[Hyper-Man]

The Turn Mode rules are identical (at least in 5er) for normal and Megascale movement.
If the movement has a Turn Mode then the character just gets to make 5 equal distant turns in Phase.
If the movement does not have a Turn Mode (Running) or has that Advantage (No Turn Mode) then the character can make as many turns as they want during a Phase.

[Vurbal]

I really can't see how it would make sense. We're not talking about moving at normal speed vs moving at megaspeed - we're talking about moving at 12km/phase because you bought megascale running, vs moving at 12km/phase because you bought a huge non-combat multiplier for your running. One is not faster than the other, and I can see no reason one would have a different DCV result.

It would be like saying that +30 STR from Growth gave you a different lifting capacity than +30 STR from Aid.
Not really. STR is a construct of the rules with specific game effects. Speed isn't. While I understand your reasoning, and even agree that it makes sense to do it the way you suggest, that doesn't invalidate making them different for game balance reasons. I'll leave any discussion of whether there is, in fact, a game balance issue for people with experience using Megascale. I haven't had a need for it and therefore don't have an informed opinion.

[Crypt]

... making them different for game balance reasons.....

What are those mysterious game balance reasons ?

[Vurbal]

What are those mysterious game balance reasons ?
Did you stop reading when you got to that part?


I'll leave any discussion of whether there is, in fact, a game balance issue for people with experience using Megascale. I haven't had a need for it and therefore don't have an informed opinion.

[Ice9]

Not really. STR is a construct of the rules with specific game effects. Speed isn't.What? Movement speed absolutely has specific game effects - velocity-based DCV for instance.

And if there were game balance issues with Megascale (which is much cheaper than buying lots of NCM), why would Megamovement give you a higher DCV?

[Vurbal]

What? Movement speed absolutely has specific game effects - velocity-based DCV for instance.

And if there were game balance issues with Megascale (which is much cheaper than buying lots of NCM), why would Megamovement give you a higher DCV?
I take it you didn't bother reading my entire post either. Asking me what the possible issues are will do you no good because I really haven't used Megascale. I was merely commenting on your point that it can only make sense if the 2 are the same. That is patently false. If you want to know what balance issues Steve Long feels there might be you'll have to read his mind because he won't discuss design decisions. Asking me after I've repeatedly said I don't use it will get you nowhere. But feel free to beat your head against that wall all you'd like.

[Ice9]

Asking me what the possible issues are will do you no good because I really haven't used Megascale. ... If you want to know what balance issues Steve Long feels there might be you'll have to read his mind because he won't discuss design decisions.Well, I have used Megascale, and I can tell you that there is no balance reason to give it higher DCV than equivalent high-NCM movement. As for what Steve Long thinks about it, I find it more likely he could make a minor math error than that he would intentionally make the already-cheaper option stronger for "balance" reasons.

[bigbywolfe]

But Steve already said that it wasn't an error...

[Hyper-Man]

I really can't see how it would make sense. We're not talking about moving at normal speed vs moving at megaspeed - we're talking about moving at 12km/phase because you bought megascale running, vs moving at 12km/phase because you bought a huge non-combat multiplier for your running. One is not faster than the other, and I can see no reason one would have a different DCV result.



Please bear in mind that I still do not yet own 6e or the APG. Subsequently the following might be totally irrelevant assuming that, since they have gone unmentioned, the acceleration rules for Megascale movement have not been changed significantly from those of 5e/5er.

In 5e/5er it states that acceleration rules where '+5" velocity/1" moved' are unchanged when using Megascale movement.
Just the scaling is changed. At Megascale velocity an 'inch' just represents whatever Megascale multiplier is being used.
This means that Megascale movement functions somewhere between high NC-multiple movement with the Rapid Noncombat Movement (+1/4) Advantage & high NC-multiple movement with the Noncombat acceleration/deceleration (+1) Advantage.
If the base number of 'inches' (or meters) is 5" (10 meters) then it's closer to the (+1) version.
The ability to accelerate/decelerate to a high velocity and back to a stop within a matter of a few seconds is significant in itself.
Maybe this is part of the reason for the apparent discrepancy.

[Crypt]

Asking me after I've repeatedly said I don't use it will get you nowhere.

:) Why do you bother posting in this thread ? That's beyond my comprehension, lol.



But Steve already said that it wasn't an error... Authority is not reason.

[bigbywolfe]

:) Why do you bother posting in this thread ? That's beyond my comprehension, lol.



Authority is not reason.
I never said it was a reason. I wasn't even talking to you. Did you bother to read the post above mine? It suggested that Steve had made an error in his math. I was correcting this obviously wrong suggestion (it being obviously wrong because Steve already said there is no mistake). That doesn't mean I'm supporting the official ruling, or saying that Steve and his decisions are perfect, or in any other way contradicting you. I was only addressing the faulty idea that there was an unknown math error.

Also, your response to Vurbal is rude. If you actually read his first post you wouldn’t have asked him pointless questions leading him to the statement you quoted above.

[Crypt]

Also, your response to Vurbal is rude.

sorry, it was not my intent. (there was a smiley)

[Vurbal]

:) Why do you bother posting in this thread ? That's beyond my comprehension, lol.
Because it was such a basic reasoning error the specifics weren'T important. When somebody says "only this way of thinking about it is right" they will be wrong 100% of the time. That's the nature of Hero whether you're talking about Megascale movement or anything else.