Poison Gas Cloud

[Reyemile]

I built a character with a toxic cloud of gas using an Area Effect Constant blast, but then noticed a hitch--constant attacks only work on my character's phases. This seems odd, because it doesn't make sense for a cloud of poison to get more effective as my character gets faster. It also kind of breaks suspension of disbelief that a character spending two or three segments in the cloud might get hit once, or might get hit twice, based solely on when those segments are in relation to my phases.


On the other hand, it does make sense to me that trying to fight your way through a cloud of smoke should be damaging simply by virtue of exertion. So what I'd like to do is there a way to build a constant power that deals damage each phase the target has within the area, as opposed to each phase I have while the target is there. Is there a way to do this? And, if not, is it because there is something inherently broken about the setup, or is it simply an area the rules haven't explored?

[Kristopher]

It's one of those quirks of the HERO system.

[Tasha]

In 6e you would use Damage over time. 6e1 pg 328. You can then choose the interval as every segment, every other seg, every 3 segs, etc.

Tasha :D

Got to love 6e :D

[Sociotard]

It is a quirk. If it bugs you, you could buy additional SPD, only for this power. (-1/4, or more if it isn't his main attack)

Or, you could limit the power (only usable at a speed of 2; -1) (assuming a SPD 4 character)

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd consider a custom advantage or limitation for the ability to match the target's speed rather than your own. The value (positive or negative) would depend on how your SPD compares to the typical opponent. If you are much faster than the everage, this is a limitation. Much slower and it is an advantage. Pretty much average, then it's probably a +0.

[Beast]

you could also add damage shield and they will take damage upon when they enter it then it will go on your speed over time

or go with a trigger that resets automatically at zero time

if you are faster(speed)damage shield will get more damage in on them over time(per turn)
trigger will do more damage if they are faster than you and stay in the area

so you will need to figure where your character stands in how fast they are vs the rest of the world

Damage shield will serve you better if you are going to face a lot of mooks
Trigger if most of the time your fights are going to be 1 on 1

[Sean Waters]

I'd go with Hugh's suggestion, because there is no simple way I'm aware of to cause damage on your opponent's phases in the system. Don't get me wrong, you can do it, but it isn't simple.

If your character is faster than the average opponent then 'Opponent takes damage on THEIR phases' would be a -1/4 or -1/2, maybe even a -1 if you are SPD 12 in a game where the average opponent is SPD 5. If your are slower than average then it is +1/4 or more. If you have average SPD it is generally neither an advantage or limitation, so +0.

OTOH a this sort of attack will affect powerful villains more than mooks, as they tend to have higher SPD. It is a matter for discussion with the GM and a few sessions of play testing.

The reason Hero does not tend to go with this sort of mechanic is there is no 'absolute application' - because Hero does not have an 'average SPD', although individual campaigns will.

Bear in mind that whilst it is arguably logical that someone with a higher SPD might be affected more rapidly by a cloud of poison gas, that is not necessarily the case at all - that assumes that the higher SPD character is processing the gas faster - doing everything faster, in fact.

What SPD measures, at least in most cases, is simply how many actions you can take in combat. That means that two people of similar fitness and metabolism should be affected in the same way by the gas, but one is a desk jockey with a SPD 2, the other has front line combat training and has a SPD 4. The second character metabolises at the same rate as the first: in the gas they both breathe the same amount at the same rate, but the second character is better at stringing combat actions together.

There's no easy answer because the problem is not a straightforward one: if higher SPD means that you take in more of the gas then, yes, you should take damage quicker - but it doesn't necessarily mean that.

I know this is terribly unhelpful (generally I am :)) but I hope it will give you some thinking points for realising the power.

Sean

[Hugh Neilson]

OTOH a this sort of attack will affect powerful villains more than mooks, as they tend to have higher SPD. It is a matter for discussion with the GM and a few sessions of play testing.

The reason Hero does not tend to go with this sort of mechanic is there is no 'absolute application' - because Hero does not have an 'average SPD', although individual campaigns will.

Bear in mind that whilst it is arguably logical that someone with a higher SPD might be affected more rapidly by a cloud of poison gas, that is not necessarily the case at all - that assumes that the higher SPD character is processing the gas faster - doing everything faster, in fact.

What SPD measures, at least in most cases, is simply how many actions you can take in combat. That means that two people of similar fitness and metabolism should be affected in the same way by the gas, but one is a desk jockey with a SPD 2, the other has front line combat training and has a SPD 4. The second character metabolises at the same rate as the first: in the gas they both breathe the same amount at the same rate, but the second character is better at stringing combat actions together.

Adding to this issue, consider characters like Grond and Menton who have limited Speed. Do Grond's extra punches from his extra arms mean he takes damage faster, or does the limitation on his SPD work to his advantage by avoiding damage in his extra phases? "Breathing" isn't a physical action, is it? Of course, the same question could be applied to drowning - if you don't voluntarily lower your SPD, you take drowning damage faster.

[Thia Halmades]

Hmm. Thinking on this, I would propose the following:

We accept as True that you can only deal the damage on your own phases, unless you were to purchase DoT for the power, but let's clarify a couple of things.

1) Constant does work as you say -- it's the phase on which you're aiming the Flamethrower at the target. Given. See my example of this below.
2) An AoE works as written -- if you're in the AOE, you're subject to the AOE. In this sense, Constant doesn't really "do" anything, because ... well, because it's an AOE. A Constant AoE means that you're always targeting... the hex, and that isn't strictly necessary, except in specific circumstances (like a flamethrower).

Now, where you'll note in the thread, people are changing your question via mental auto response, i.e., they know that in an AoE scenario, a character only takes damage on that character's phase. So if I, The Lord Captain Thia Halmades, step into a burning building and have a SPD 4, I will take damage/choke/etc. on 3, 6, 9 & 12. The building is on fire, and the effect would be modeled as an AoE -- I take damage on all of my phases. By advent of you going Constant, you're changing this from a "burning circle, where if I'm in it, I get burned, to a Flamethrower, a Constant Attack that deals damage on your turn.

The easiest thing to do is build a large enough, lethal enough AoE so that anyone standing in said AoE takes damage, period. Once the AoE goes off, you're good to go. Its the Constant that's throwing you off.

[GamePhil]

Well, in 5th Edition, you'd likely have to either do as Hugh says and design a custom Advantage/Limitation to cover this situation, and I'd recommend that in 6th also. Otherwise, you get into the weirdness of buying up your SPD and putting a Limitation on it to only work to have your Constant AoE attack work on your target's Phases, which seems excessive to me (although I would give that a -2 Limitation and allow you to burn Phases defensively on those Segments).

I haven't been able to get it yet, but did the APG have a Change Environment that covered suffocation? If so, it might be usable for what you need, too.


In 6e you would use Damage over time. 6e1 pg 328. You can then choose the interval as every segment, every other seg, every 3 segs, etc.


While likely the perfect answer rules-wise, assuming 6E is being used, I would hesitate to do this because of the cost. Without fudging, that would be a +4 1/2 Advantage for it to last one Turn and go off every Segment, after which you'd possibly put it on a Limitation: Only Affects Target On His Own Phases, or Only Affects Target On Segments He Uses END.

With fudging, I might be inclined to use the average SPD of probable targets and buy up the DOT to a level that would work, so if typically characters have a SPD of 4, go every 3 segments with four attacks, which would make the Advantage +2 3/4, which is a bit better but still pretty high just to change from my SPD to the target's SPD, when Constant is only +1/2. It does mean I only have to spend END once, and it is effectively also Uncontrolled, but that's still only a +1 1/2 Advantage for that method.

Beast's Trigger might also work at a high enough level but again seems too expensive just to make it the target's SPD rather than yours. Damage Shield should not be necessary, Constant AoE's already work that way in both 5th and 6th.


2) An AoE works as written -- if you're in the AOE, you're subject to the AOE. In this sense, Constant doesn't really "do" anything, because ... well, because it's an AOE. A Constant AoE means that you're always targeting... the hex, and that isn't strictly necessary, except in specific circumstances (like a flamethrower).


I'm not sure I'm understanding: if I don't have Constant, I have to use an attack action every phase to hit the hex again, with it I don't, so it does something. Whether that's worth a +1/2 or +1 Advantage is another question.

[Reyemile]

Thanks for the suggestions. It sounds like a custom adder is the way to go, since any other builds involve obnoxious rules cludges or ridiculous Damage Over Time costs. I'll report how well it works, if I can get my GM to approve it!

[GamePhil]

Don't get me wrong, DOT is a great Advantage with a number of applications, it just seems like a bit much for this, especially if most of the characters in the game have fairly similar Speeds.