Math

[torchwolf]

Quoted from a review of BASH! Basic Action Super Heroes Ultimate Edition:

If you're new to BASH, it's an easy to learn system that plays very fast but still manages to have enough crunch to keep you interested. The basic mechanic is rolling 2d6 and multiplying the result by the appropriate stat (Brawn, Agility, or Mind) plus any applicable modifiers and beating a target number. Simple and easy. Oh yeah, the Hero System requires too much math to play. :)

[GamePhil]

People simply don't get that somewhat involved mathematics during character creation (which, honestly, can be bypassed for simple characters) is not as bad as having to go through such the above formula on every single roll. Probably easy enough for us, but still.

[Sean Waters]

Hero probably has the most effort intensive character creation system of any RPG because it requires that you actually think about what you are doing, but even then the maths is pretty basic, and covered in the tables provided. The actual system is not and never has been mathematically complex.

Anyone ever see the (original) 'Villains and Vigillantes' system method for calculating 'carrying capacity'? Sheesh.

I think this 'You need to be a Fud to play Hero' is a vicious rumour spead by the jealous.

[Doc Democracy]

Sean - I dont think our american cousins will know what a fud is (PhD in case you were wondering) and there will be people in the west of Scotland sniggering as you have just used our very own synonym for female genitalia... :-)

[lemming]

Sean - I dont think our american cousins will know what a fud is (PhD in case you were wondering) and there will be people in the west of Scotland sniggering as you have just used our very own synonym for female genitalia... :-)

Thanks Doc, I was wondering what "Fear, uncertainty and doubt" had to do with the math.

[Kristopher]

I was just going to say, "FUD -- Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt"?

[Zeropoint]

Foreign, um . . . Underwear Damage?

[Sean Waters]

Sean - I dont think our american cousins will know what a fud is (PhD in case you were wondering) and there will be people in the west of Scotland sniggering as you have just used our very own synonym for female genitalia... :-)

As in 'I wouldn't mind a visit to Elmer?'

[Sean Waters]

Thanks Doc, I was wondering what "Fear, uncertainty and doubt" had to do with the math.

OK, I can see how you wouldn't have got 'doctor' from that, but the female genitalia should have been obvious.

OK, shutting up now....

[Sean Waters]

Foreign, um . . . Underwear Damage?


Back to...no, really, shutting up now...

[Susano]

How about calculating the final values of super powers in GURPS? It's all percentages! Not to mention the rules for building a vehicle.

[torchwolf]

Fun with Fractions:
The original Superworld game had Advantages on Powers rated in adding to a Power's cost (per Level) equal to the original cost plus original x4, x2, x1 or x1/3 [equal to +4, +2, +1 or +1/3 in Hero System terms]. Power Disadvantages used 1/2, 1/3 and 1/6 of original cost categories, and 1 point per 5% flat refunds on Power for Burnout or Failure Chance.
As in RuneQuest, Critical Rolls were equal to 1/20th of the number required for Success, Special Rolls were equal to 1/5th of the number required, and Fumbles were defined as any roll greater than 100 minus 1/20th of the chance to miss, noting: "see Crucial Rolls Table if you're confused".
It also had Actions defined as Melee Round Actions, Full Actions, Semi-Actions, Quartermoves (an Action), and Instantaneous Actions.

Still, I liked and used the game, but would probably not attempt it today. :)

[Bodkins Odds]

Ah, GURPS Vehicles, the most complex role-playing rules system in existence. Except for GURPS using GULLIVER (http://www.gamesdiner.com/gurps/GULLIVER/indexframe.html).

[Doc Democracy]

GURPS Vehicles? I think that Space Opera by FGU was the most complicated set of rules I ever attempted to read!

[torchwolf]

Ah, Space Opera. I actually GMed it a few times. :)
Unfortunately this game, also from Fantasy Games Unlimited, never saw play... while it had some interesting mechanics (as a Gamma World-like combat flowchart), it had rather randomly in-depth mechanics...

Off-hand Dexterity equals
(Wit plus Will plus Deftness)/G, nearest plus 2D3

Other Trivia: Aftermath used the (physically non-existent at the time) d30 for a few rolls, surprisingly not for the 30 Hit Locations though. The d30 was simulated thus:

D30: Roll a D20 and a control die. If the control die is a 1- 2, the D20 result is read as 1-10; if the control die is 3-4, the D20 result is read as 11-20; if the control die is 5-6, the D20 result is read as 21-30.
Although it does not state so, it might be inferred that the control die is a d6. :)

[Bodkins Odds]

Actually, it occurs to me that Gary Gygax's Mythus was even more complicated than GULLIVER and GURPS Vehicles combined. I had blocked it out.

[bluegodjanus]

Other Trivia: Aftermath used the (physically non-existent at the time) d30 for a few rolls, surprisingly not for the 30 Hit Locations though. The d30 was simulated thus:

Wouldn't it have been easier to use a d10 and the "control die"? Or was this in the days of the twenty-sided d10?

[Susano]

I'm pretty sure that's the days of D20s only.

[Captain Obvious]

Actually, it occurs to me that Gary Gygax's Mythus was even more complicated than GULLIVER and GURPS Vehicles combined. I had blocked it out.

Mythus wasn't THAT bad. You never had to find the cube root of any number in Mythus, that I can recall.

[Nevelon]

Mythus wasn't THAT bad. You never had to find the cube root of any number in Mythus, that I can recall.

IIRC Mythus was also a system where almost all the math was up front. Once you were done with your character it was just roll and add.

[TSandman]

Ever tried soing Mechas in Mekton Zeta Plus?

I spent at least a week doing a spreadsheet to enable our group to redo the caclulation for changing armor weight, size, power-to-weight ratios, etc... without having to start from scratch every single time
IIRC, there was some options that changed the multipliers you used in mid-calculation, others that added to the result, etc. Every changes needed a regression to verify every part of the cost calculation was impacted

[Zeropoint]

Ah, GURPS Vehicles, in which it is possible to build an airplane and when you're finished, discover that it won't fly.

[TSandman]

How Usefull! :)

[Captain Obvious]

And the only way to build a birchbark canoe is to consider birchbark a high-tech material.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Ah, GURPS Vehicles, in which it is possible to build an airplane and when you're finished, discover that it won't fly.

That's what the Hoisters are for.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Hero probably has the most effort intensive character creation system of any RPG because it requires that you actually think about what you are doing, but even then the maths is pretty basic, and covered in the tables provided. The actual system is not and never has been mathematically complex.

Anyone ever see the (original) 'Villains and Vigillantes' system method for calculating 'carrying capacity'? Sheesh.

I ended up writing BASIC programs to do those character generation exercises in V&V when i was modeling characters. These days I'd use a spreadhseet, but they didn;t make them accessible in those olden days when I had my Amstrad and later my Atari 800 (when the Amstrad got stolen).


I think this 'You need to be a Fud to play Hero' is a vicious rumour spead by the jealous.

"Be vewwy, vewwy quiet. I'm pwayign Heewo."

[KawangaKid]

Quoted from a review of BASH! Basic Action Super Heroes Ultimate Edition:
Oh yeah, the Hero System requires too much math to play. :)

Perhaps the BASH makers bought into the belief of the late Gary Gygax that multiplying was easier than adding and subtracting (or just reading off the values on percentile dice) as he argued in his famous RPG... CYBORG COMMANDO! (Apologies, Mr. Gygax, but really!)

[the fox]

larger image (http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=2926) BASH! Basic Action Super Heroes Ultimate Edition $15.00
This book has everything you need to create characters and run super-heroic adventures within minutes. The rules are light and easy all you need are two ordinary dice, a piece of paper, and this book. Character generation is so simple, you could fit all the info you need on a 3x5 card, but we included a sheet anyway.

Do not assume that by simple, we mean incomplete, either. BASH! UE has over 50 versatile super powers, numerous skills, and even rules for collateral damage. The action is fast and furious, paced over a series of panels, pages, and issues, just like a comic book.

BASH! has undergone some changes over the years, with updates in Megapolis and BAM! and we have incorporated many of these into a single rules set. In addition to an expanded, revised version of the game, you will also find:

Less record-keeping, more Awesome. Energy is no longer the "default" rule for handling powers-- so you have less to keep track of during play. Hero dice, Hero points, and team-work maneuvers are now a part of the core system, so you can really bring it to the bad-guys!

Easier to read layout, better explained rules, including many examples.

Character Archetypes: Writeups of various iconic superhero & villain archetypes such as the Brick, Martial Artist, and Blaster. These templates can be easily tweaked to quickly have a custom character!

Hordes of Minions! Fleets of Vehicles! Random Encounters!

Eras & Subgenres: One of the things BASH! Fantasy & Sci-Fi editions did was extensive work on the subgenres of Fantasy and Sci-Fi, such as Steam-Punk or Space Pulp. BASH! Ultimate Edition will do the same thing for Superheroes, enabling you to run a game with the theme & tone of the Gold, Silver, Bronze, or Iron Ages. There are also sections on Super Teens, Science Fiction, Fantasy, as well as Cosmic Superheroes.

http://www.bashrpg.com/BASH%20Ultimate%20Edition%20Preview.pdf

[Tasha]

Ah, Space Opera. I actually GMed it a few times. :)
Unfortunately this game, also from Fantasy Games Unlimited, never saw play... while it had some interesting mechanics (as a Gamma World-like combat flowchart), it had rather randomly in-depth mechanics...


Other Trivia: Aftermath used the (physically non-existent at the time) d30 for a few rolls, surprisingly not for the 30 Hit Locations though. The d30 was simulated thus:



Though the Armory produced a book in 1982 that had a ton of game charts for use with their d30s. So FGU probably knew that The Armory was set to release a physical die for their game soon.

[torchwolf]

Though the Armory produced a book in 1982 that had a ton of game charts for use with their d30s. So FGU probably knew that The Armory was set to release a physical die for their game soon.
If so, it was a plan that failed as much as the d30 itself. I lost my lone d30 while moving years back, and while I miss it in a geeky way, it sure was the most useless die I owned, with one exception:
The 100-sided d100. It was more of a golf ball than a die, and I won't even try to comment on how hard it was to decide which face was "up".

[IndianaJoe3]

If so, it was a plan that failed as much as the d30 itself. I lost my lone d30 while moving years back, and while I miss it in a geeky way, it sure was the most useless die I owned, with one exception:
The 100-sided d100. It was more of a golf ball than a die, and I won't even try to comment on how hard it was to decide which face was "up".

I must confess that I still own two d30s (1-30 and -0 0 +0), a d100, and a d24.

[Susano]

I was hoping to get a D30 when I ordered a Chessex Pound-O-Dice.

[Captain Obvious]

I bought a d30 a year or two ago. I found a free RPG on the internet that was at least intriguing, and it based combat around a d30, so I picked one up in case I ever decided to do anything with it.

[torchwolf]

I must confess that I still own two d30s (1-30 and -0 0 +0), a d100, and a d24.
<envy></envy>
d24? Is there an illo of such rough beast? :jawdrop:

[Susano]

This year, I intend to get some sets of the really odd dice when I go to Gen Con... like d3s, d7s, d14s....

[torchwolf]

This year, I intend to get some sets of the really odd dice when I go to Gen Con... like d3s, d7s, d14s....
The ultimate evolution of the 100-sided d100 would be a d1. I have one of those. ;)

[Susano]

The ultimate evolution of the 100-sided d100 would be a d1. I have one of those. ;)

The best I can rustle up is a d2.

[dmjalund]

isn't a 2 headed coin the same (functionally) as a d1?

[torchwolf]

isn't a 2 headed coin the same (functionally) as a d1?
Technically, I would suppose a 2 headed coin would actually be a d3 with a pretty odd probability distribution (landing on the edge).

A true d2 would be quite hard to design, being two-dimensional, and be a bit difficult to roll more than once - how would you pick it up from the table without very special equipment?

I don't actually own a perfect spheroid - which would be just a bit easier to construct, I just have this ball. ;)

Now, if Foxbat got the idea that he would create the d0, that might spell some serious trouble...

[Matt the Bruins]

I'm pretty sure that's the days of D20s only.

Wait, what? There was an orange d10 in the Dungeons & Dragons Basic set I bought back in 1982.

The most complex rules I can recall reading were the magic system for Mage: Revised, which (combined with the snotty attitude of White Wolf's webmaster) led to me throwing my hands up and abandoning the game company entirely. I can't actually recall any specifics about the process, but considering I used to play the 2nd Edition without complaint I think it must have been a nightmarish tangle.

[Fearghus]

My playeds used to complain about math all the time too. then I pointed out some of the math they have to do for D&D. They've been pretty quiet ever since.

[Kristopher]

Hero probably has the most effort intensive character creation system of any RPG because it requires that you actually think about what you are doing, but even then the maths is pretty basic, and covered in the tables provided. The actual system is not and never has been mathematically complex.

Anyone ever see the (original) 'Villains and Vigillantes' system method for calculating 'carrying capacity'? Sheesh.

I think this 'You need to be a Fud to play Hero' is a vicious rumour spead by the jealous.

Actually, compared to some systems, such as some of the examples given between your post and this reply, even character creation isn't that complicated or effort-intensive in HERO.

[PhilFleischmann]

I'm still trying to figure out how "fud" means "female genitalia".

And speaking of dice, I want to see a d12 that's a rhombic dodecahedron, instead of a regular dodecahedron. You could also make a d60 or a d120, but I don't think anyone has yet. How about a dPI?

[Doc Democracy]

I'm still trying to figure out how "fud" means "female genitalia".

Because that is the word we used on the streets as kids when we were expanding our vocabulary into sexual lexicons. It is a West of Scotland term and from casting about on ye old interweb - it would seem it derives from an Old Norse word pronounced the same way....

[L. Marcus]

... It's a cognate to our swedish term for that same organ.

[McCoy]

<envy></envy>
d24? Is there an illo of such rough beast? :jawdrop:
Don't know why I can't load the picture, but think of a low pyramid on each face of a cube.

[IndianaJoe3]

Don't know why I can't load the picture, but think of a low pyramid on each face of a cube.

Yeah, that's a good way to describe it.

[Susano]

This should load:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/26/20091001235008!24_sided_dice_d24.jpg

[McCoy]

34704
Humm, yours has trapezoidal faces, mine has triangular.

[Susano]

Hmm.... I like them both, but mine has an obvious up... what about yours?

[McCoy]

Hmm.... I like them both, but mine has an obvious up... what about yours?
Easier to see in person than in that picture. "2" is the top face in the picture, I was trying for the overall shape. "24" was lost in the glare from the flash.

[Susano]

Another thing to add to my Gen Con list....