Bad character design or broken rules ?

[Gothhog]

Hi I'm new to the HERO system and was looking to see how the rules handle balance (point costs) of hallmark superhero characters and I noticed that the Skill Heavy / Jack of All Trades / Gadget based characters result to being ridiculously expensive compared to their Power level.

Compare these Hallmark Superheroes:

Batman (Total Character Cost: 845)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/aju/Batman.HTML (http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/aju/Batman.HTML)

Superman (Total Character Cost: 525)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/aju/Superman.HTML (http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscomic/aju/Superman.HTML)

Is this a know issue in the HERO system or is it simply bad character design of the (character) creators?

If this is a known issue in the HERO system (I would think that Superman would at least cost the same as Batman (probably a lot more in my opinion)) how do you fix this?

If this is a design fault / Conversion error in one of the characters how would you design these characters (especially Batman)?

[Susano]

First, I'd forgotten how messed up those tables were on my webpage. I'll need to fix that.

Second, that's a very low-end Superman. I've seen him with point totals of 1,600 and 3,000+ points (IIRC correctly). So it all depends on what level of detail you build your character at. Also, Batman is known to have vast resources -- he's exceedingly intelligent, exceedingly wealthy, well-connected, possesses a small fleet of vehicles, and is one of the best HTH fighters in the DC Universe. This is all going to cost points. I recall reading the Batman Sourcebook for the old DC Comics RPG from Mayfair and thinking that he's be 1,000 points easy, if you included everything the book said about him. Also note that Superman has no skills in that character sheet -- Batman does. While Superman doesn't have the breadth of knowledge that Batman does, he's no fool and should have a reasonable spread of skills.

So it's not so much as an issue with the system (although it has always been expensive to build a skill-monger) or of bad character design, it's just as case different interpretations.

[Sean Waters]

Batman wins every fight between the two characters: why would you think he is a lower point total?

[ghost-angel]

First, you've run into the first thing about HERO that I like to ignore: Character Source Material Interpretation. Everyone has a slightly different take on iconic characters we're all "familiar" with.

It's fun to do, but it doesn't showcase crap about the system.

As Teh Bunneh was pointing out in a conversation he and I were having this past weekend: to make Superman the toughest guy in your Campaign he just needs to be the toughest guy in the campaign. Whether that's 350 Points or 35,000 points is only dependent on your PCs and their relative power levels.

[Hyper-Man]

GA is spot on (as is usually the case).

I've posted versions of the JLA that were primarily intended to show that they could be built as starting player characters on 350 points and still cover the core abilities that make each of them unique (see link in sig below). They can really only be compared to each other since certain assumptions were made in their creation (like no SPD's over 4 except for Flash's 6, Superman has highest potential STR of 75, very loose Active Point/DC cap enforcement...) Comparing one poster's version of Batman to another poster's version of Superman is like having a non-Crisis On Infinite Earths team-up between the Earth-1 Batman and Earth-2 Superman (yes it could've happened but they aren't scaled to each other, they literally are from different universes).

[secretID]

1) I agree with everything that was said already.
2) However, I do think that skills, etc. are on average overpriced in a supers game. I don't really believe in the idea of a universal system - at least not with universal pricing. As a GM, I have very specific build guidelines to ensure better rounded characters.
3) However however, depending on the adventure design, skills, perks (like contacts), etc. can make all the difference. With supers, I think of them more like on/off switches. If you build two 400-pt. characters, the one with fewer points in powers will likely have a tougher time in fights, but the one with no points in skills, etc., may well hit brick walls.

Re Super/Bat Men, think of how many simple mysteries you could build that would completely stymie Supes. That's great that he can easily demolish the bad guys, but can he even find them?

In a team of supers, I think you want at least one or two with each major skill and perk. Beyond that, I think the group as a whole is probably wasting points.

One last thing re character write-ups. It seems to me that the point often is to write a particular character at a particular point level. Two characters who seem unequal to you may be built on the same points simply because the builder gave him/herself that rule: "build these characters on [x] points each."

[Bodkins Odds]

Batman wins every fight between the two characters: why would you think he is a lower point total?

QFT. You must spread rep, etc.

[ghost-angel]

Oh - and to answer the question in the thread title - it is neither Bad Character Design or Broken Rules.

Every game will be different.

[Killer Shrike]

You have to look at characters that were designed together for use in the same campaign for a comparison to have any relevance, as every campaign can be very different.

If you want to stick to a source material comparison, you might want to look at HyperMan's JLA (http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/HyperManJLA.aspx), which is a clutch of characters designed by the same person on the same point level modeling JLA members including supes and bats.


Having said that, yes, Skill Mongers can tend to cost a lot.

The problem, in my opinion, is that the Game values Skills more than most players and GM's do. I don't think this is a flaw of the system per se, as much as it is a habit of many players and GM's to think of anything that isnt a Power as being not good for much.

However, if you use Skills as they are written, particularly if you are using Ultimate Skill, then almost all of them are actually far more useful and capable than many realize and in fact are often extremely efficient.

Since you can't really know how much weight an individual GM is giving to skills unless you actually play in their campaign, its difficult to judge the relative competency of skills-heavy characters in that campaign in real terms. You can usually sniff when skills are being ignored or nerfed when you notice that two or more characters have "Powers" that are basically replications of things normally modeled without Powers.

[Gothhog]

The reason I made the thread is that our game group is planning to run a Super hero campaign and is looking for a game system. We have already made the characters in another (free) Superhero system (dX Tristat) and when trying to convert it to HERO my hero Jack Sanders (aka. “Action man” / “Mr. Hollywood”) he turns out to be very expensive.

My Character concept is an Over the top action hero with no obvious super powers (or Superhero level “attributes”) other than the weird law of Hollywood b-movies that seems to apply to him (Unlimited ammo with all weapons, all weapons deal additional damage in his hands, etc.)

The Design turns really expensive when we started to buy skills, Action man is a master of all weapons and vehicles (including riding), an extreme survivor (all terrains), know all languages (seems to have the memory of thousands of ancient heroes).

Additionally he has a lot of equipment, though none is “Super gear” just what you expect from the current technology (A Tank, A Hind, A Patrol boat, and a lot of guns)

Does anyone have a design suggestion on how to make such a character with a starting character Superhero ?

[Hugh Neilson]

As others have said, it's very campaign-dependent. If your game focuses primarily around combat, and getting characters to the combat is mostly window dressing, then a character spending points on investigative skills is wasting his points. If your game centers around investigation and finding the bad guys, the character with no ivestigative skills may spend a lot of time being useless. In some games, interaction is resolved based on, the GM will say, "role playing", so paying points for interaction skills is futile because it is the player's skills, not the character's, that govern success. The glib player with no social skills on his character sheet succeeds, and the shy player whose character spends half his points on interaction skills and modifiers gets the same results a shy PC with no points in interaction skills would get.

It's not the system that makes a skillmonger ineffective for his point totals - it's the campaign style. In a game where skills are window dressing, I would say the skill monger is bad character design - not for Hero System in general, but for that game specifically.

[tesuji]

Hi I'm new to the HERO system and was looking to see how the rules handle balance (point costs) of hallmark superhero characters and I noticed that the Skill Heavy / Jack of All Trades / Gadget based characters result to being ridiculously expensive compared to their Power level.


I think this is a perception issue and a campaign one.

The perception issue is straightforward - if your measruing stick is POWER LEVEL (assumption you mean COMBAT POWER LEVEL) and you compare one char with a lot of non-combat points with one with a lot of combat points spent - then they ratio of points to power level wont gibe.

Just like if one guy spends $60k on a large truck and another guy spends $60k on a sportscar in real life and you measure them by HAULING CAPACITY then looking at "money spent vs hauling capacity" it looks like one guy got gyped big time.

In fact, each paid different points to be good in different areas.

Now as a GM if you run your game where lots of batman's skills are NEEDED, then Supes wont seem too powerful.
By contrast if most of your in-game challenges are of the combat variety, straight forward bash-em-ups, then supes will seem head and shoulders above the batman who spent lotsa points on skills not relevent to your SELECTED challenges.

The key is this - YOUR CHOSEN CHALLENGES applied in your campaign, the things your PCs have to overcome, are what either makes the points right or makes them wrong for your game and your characters.

If i were going to run a bash-em-up supers game, one which only rarely featured the esoteric skills the batman lists - then i would tell the players beforehand "dont spend a lot on non-com skills. Just write them down as 0 pt flavor stuff."

If you as GM charge a player 3 cp for "BUGGING 14-" and charge another character 3 cp for "+1 OCV with my three favorite attacks" then you as Gm are telling them "i will select challenges that will make these traits play out as equally useful."

If later on as the campaign progresses you don't follow thru on that promise, thats on you.

[Gothhog]

I’m sure that both combat and investigation will be important in this campaign but my opinion in that Skills are for “Heroes” not for “Superheros”.
Why spend character points for Climbing / Acrobatics / Breakfall / Riding / Swimming / Combat Driving /C. Piloting (unless you have a “Super vehicle”)when you can use Super movement (Fly, Super-jump, Wall- crawl, Teleport etc.) Why buy Interaction / Communication skills when you could use Mental Powers (Mind Control / Link / Scan) etc..
I’m looking for some sort of Skill discount for Superhero campaigns (House rules perhaps?)
Or is there any experienced “HERO builder” out there to make a “Lord of War” Power (Intuitive proficiency in any weapon/Vehicle) and how much should that cost.

(All Weapon Familiarity as skills would cost an incredible 52 (+all the worlds Vehicle Weapons) points)
(Should Weapon / Transport Familiarities be used at all in a Superhero campaign?)
How would you make a “Tongues” (Speak, Understand, Read & Write all languages) Power?

[Hyper-Man]

In a supers setting a character who pays points for a weapon does not have to purchase a weapon familiarity for it.
Similarly, when dealing with vehicles paid for with character points and the character wants to be able use his full DCV while in control of the vehicle he will need the appropriate skill (combat piloting/driving) but doesn't need to purchase a transport familiarity for it as well.

If you take a look at my version of Batman you'll notice that I didn't even purchase the vehicles he commonly uses in his own comic as separate abilities. Instead I just represented them as a summon via the utility belt since their usefulness is greatly reduced in JLA stories where most of the other members have flight or other personal means of travel (unlike Batman).

[Rapier]

The reason I made the thread is that our game group is planning to run a Super hero campaign and is looking for a game system. We have already made the characters in another (free) Superhero system (dX Tristat) and when trying to convert it to HERO my hero Jack Sanders (aka. “Action man” / “Mr. Hollywood”) he turns out to be very expensive.

My Character concept is an Over the top action hero with no obvious super powers (or Superhero level “attributes”) other than the weird law of Hollywood b-movies that seems to apply to him (Unlimited ammo with all weapons, all weapons deal additional damage in his hands, etc.)

The Design turns really expensive when we started to buy skills, Action man is a master of all weapons and vehicles (including riding), an extreme survivor (all terrains), know all languages (seems to have the memory of thousands of ancient heroes).

Additionally he has a lot of equipment, though none is “Super gear” just what you expect from the current technology (A Tank, A Hind, A Patrol boat, and a lot of guns)

Does anyone have a design suggestion on how to make such a character with a starting character Superhero ?

Ok, some of this we can fix real quick. Hero has a lot of granularity. Which, you've noticed. For example, let's take Survival. When you look at Survival there are a LOT of options under there. If you select ALL those options Survival costs 16 pts!! So what do you do? Well, (and I'm not sure where this suggestion came from if it was in the book, in the APG, in the forums or what - can someone find me a reference or have a clue where I discovered this?) what you do is kind of use a 'skill tree' method. The base theory is that someone that has Wilderness Survival will have some clue about how to survive in the Arctic. They will have a better chance of surviving than someone without Survival at all. So you allow someone with Wilderness Survival to make Arctic Survival rolls at a small penalty. Hmmm. Well, what if the character doesn't necessarily have specific survival knowledge. Perhaps a general survival skill, not particular to any environment? You allow them to purchase Survival without any concentration. If the character wants to make a Wilderness Survival roll they use their Survival skill (at a small penalty). So instead of having to pay 16 pts for SURVIVAL the character can pay only 3 pts for Survival (and probably increase the score a couple of points to offset the penalties that will occur).

You can do this with a number of skills (eg Gambling, Forgery). That should save you some points right off the bat.

Secondly, it is not necessary to buy every skill up to fantastic levels. You can simply purchase the character some Skill Levels that apply to all skills. These are a bit expensive, but if the character has a lot of skills, the cost become very economical very quickly.

The Universal Translator Talent would allow him to speak all languages (thus removing the need to purchase scads of language skills).

Spending points on his 'action hero powers' may be expensive or it may not be. It depends quite a bit on how you've built him. Post a copy of him and we'll see if there isn't some tweaks we can make to bring his costs down some. Hero builds can be a bit difficult until you get into the swing of things.

Lastly, it can be difficult to take a group of characters from another game and convert them directly to Hero and have the point totals match up. Different game systems apply powers or skills in different manners and it may just not be possible to have 'that exact same character.' It may, in the end, be impossible. But I imagine we can get pretty close! :)

[Susano]

I’m sure that both combat and investigation will be important in this campaign but my opinion in that Skills are for “Heroes” not for “Superheros”.
Why spend character points for Climbing / Acrobatics / Breakfall / Riding / Swimming / Combat Driving /C. Piloting (unless you have a “Super vehicle”)when you can use Super movement (Fly, Super-jump, Wall- crawl, Teleport etc.) Why buy Interaction / Communication skills when you could use Mental Powers (Mind Control / Link / Scan) etc..
I’m looking for some sort of Skill discount for Superhero campaigns (House rules perhaps?)


You seem to forget that for every Superman or Thor, there's a Batman and Captain America. They don't have super-powers of flight or teleport or telepathy or mind control, and must get by on their training, which might military or investigative, or scientific, or what have you . In fact, a lot of superhero/villain characters have skills, and some (like Doctor Doom or Lex Luthor) have a lot of skills. To take that away from superhero characters turns them into nothing but their powers, which in my mind, turns them from "people with powers" into simple construct of superhuman abilities with no connection to the rest of us.




Or is there any experienced “HERO builder” out there to make a “Lord of War” Power (Intuitive proficiency in any weapon/Vehicle) and how much should that cost.

(All Weapon Familiarity as skills would cost an incredible 52 (+all the worlds Vehicle Weapons) points)
(Should Weapon / Transport Familiarities be used at all in a Superhero campaign?)
How would you make a “Tongues” (Speak, Understand, Read & Write all languages) Power?

The "Tongues" power already exists, it's called "Universal Translator." As for the other power, you could create something similar (Universal Weapon? of Universal Pilot). If you're really that good, then create a Cosmic VPP and define it only for weapons and/or vehicle skills.

[Susano]

The reason I made the thread is that our game group is planning to run a Super hero campaign and is looking for a game system. We have already made the characters in another (free) Superhero system (dX Tristat) and when trying to convert it to HERO my hero Jack Sanders (aka. “Action man” / “Mr. Hollywood”) he turns out to be very expensive.

My Character concept is an Over the top action hero with no obvious super powers (or Superhero level “attributes”) other than the weird law of Hollywood b-movies that seems to apply to him (Unlimited ammo with all weapons, all weapons deal additional damage in his hands, etc.)

The Design turns really expensive when we started to buy skills, Action man is a master of all weapons and vehicles (including riding), an extreme survivor (all terrains), know all languages (seems to have the memory of thousands of ancient heroes).

Additionally he has a lot of equipment, though none is “Super gear” just what you expect from the current technology (A Tank, A Hind, A Patrol boat, and a lot of guns)

Does anyone have a design suggestion on how to make such a character with a starting character Superhero ?

Ahhh... dX Tristat. I can see where some of the issue is. Yes, Trisat does change the price of skills and other character elements based on the genre, and while that works in some ways, I think it fails to allow the system to be truly universal, since you'd need to alter character sheets from one setting to another.

Now, as for you list of powers --

1) Unlimited ammo with all weapons -- I thought about this, and realized you'd want to buy a fairly large RKA (say 4d6) with the Advantage of 0 END, and the Limitations of OIF (current weapon of opportunity) and RKA Limited To Value Of Current Weapon. There should be an understanding with the GM that this will cover autofire weapons and the like.

2) all weapons deal additional damage in his hands -- Buy level of Weaponsmaster for HKA and RKA. Pricey, but you do get to add +xd6 of Killing Damage to anything you pick up.

3) master of all weapons -- Because you bought Power 1, the GM should allow you to use any firearm with no problem. HTH weapons, are a slightly different matter. But see #4.

4) master of all... vehicles -- Based on my previous post, Action Man should have a Cosmic Variable Power Pool dedicated to just skills. Not that he knows every skill in the world, but one that allows him to have the skills he needs when he needs. A 20 to 24-point pool should be sufficient. As it is "Cosmic" it should change as needed depending on what Action Man is carrying, driving, or doing. However, this might need the GM's okay. I don't readily recall the rules on skills in a VPP.

5) an extreme survivor (all terrains) -- In 6E, you can buy Survival for 3 points and it will cover all environments. You don't have to use the subcategories if you don't want to (or, it should).

6) know all languages -- Universal Translator, 20 points.

7) Additionally he has a lot of equipment -- Okay, here's the problem. Buying things like tanks and M-24 Hinds in HERO is expensive, because the vehicles themselves are fairly powerful, even when compared to a lot of supers. So in order to have an M1A1, an M-24, a patrol boat, and all that, you'll need to layout some points. And I'm pretty sure you can't put vehicles into a VPP.

8) As for guns... you can have them in a VPP, which you change back at your base or the like. This is built a lot like Power 1.

[Ice9]

I would say that if you're going by the Superheroic rules (paying points for vehicles and weapons), then TF and WF should be basically free - maybe 2-3 points each. The cost makes sense for Heroic games (where all your weapons and vehicles could be covered by the Wealthy perk), but not when you're already paying for them. So that's one issue.
As far as equipment, maybe try a Multipower. Maybe something like this:

50 Fully Equipped - Multipower (75p reserve), all slots OIF (equipment of opportunity).
5u 1) Guns - RKA 3d6+1, 0 End
5u 2) Automatics - RKA 2d6, Autofire (5 shots), 0 End
5u 3) Katana! - HKA 3d6+1, Armor Piercing
5u 4) Grenades - RKA 3d6+1, Explosion, Charges
3u 5) Vehicles - Summon 165 point Vehicle, Slavishly Devoted, Expanded Class (various vehicles), Limited Power (must have access to vehicle)

[Daltwisney]

Additionally he has a lot of equipment -- Okay, here's the problem. Buying things like tanks and M-24 Hinds in HERO is expensive, because the vehicles themselves are fairly powerful, even when compared to a lot of supers. So in order to have an M1A1, an M-24, a patrol boat, and all that, you'll need to layout some points. And I'm pretty sure you can't put vehicles into a VPP.

There is a mention of this under the entry for Vehicles and Bases in Perks (6E1, p 107). It doesn't mention Multipowers, but in the discussion under Power Frameworks, it suggests that IF a GM allows a Character to put a Vehicle into a Power Framework (a VPP is specifically mentioned) that it Cost the full amount of points, and not Cost/5, as it would if you built it separately. I doubt I would ever allow a Vehicle in a MP myself, but I can see the logic of someone allowing it in a VPP, for the right reasons.

[Susano]

There is a mention of this under the entry for Vehicles and Bases in Perks (6E1, p 107). It doesn't mention Multipowers, but in the discussion under Power Frameworks, it suggests that IF a GM allows a Character to put a Vehicle into a Power Framework (a VPP is specifically mentioned) that it Cost the full amount of points, and not Cost/5, as it would if you built it separately. I doubt I would ever allow a Vehicle in a MP myself, but I can see the logic of someone allowing it in a VPP, for the right reasons.

Still, that's a lot of points if you want a tank and a Hind and a....

[Daltwisney]

Still, that's a lot of points if you want a tank and a Hind and a....

Yes it is, even if you only want one at a time (VPP).

[tesuji]

Well if you as Gm think skills are not appropriate for the campaign as purchases, "skills are for heroes not supers", then set the cost of those skills to 0 for your campaign.

look, you say that both combat and investigation will be important but then list a lot of movement skills as apparently a "why buy?".

YOU KNOW WHAT YOU PLAN TO DO better than any of us could. You are the guy with the knowledge needed to set accurate costs. I have no earthly idea how often "detective and bugging will play as significant a role as +1 DC will in YOUR UPCOMING CAMPAIGN. How can i advise you on what those costs should be, on how to give them a discount and how much of a discount it should be?

Does anyone on this board other than you have a clue how often 'investigation skills" will be important in your game as opposed to movement skills as opposed to languages?

TONGUES power - read/write/speak all? How often will that come up as needed in play? In the vast majority of supers comix i read, it hardly ever did. if it did it was a special plot device for that story not a common feature. I tend to charge little at all for languages in such supers games myself. i allow them as background flavor skills - pick the ones appropriate to your character.

Vehicles for movement purposes - i tend to allow it as megascale movement at appropriate speeds with a "focus vehicle" lim on the cost. They pay less than "the flyer" because they usually have to go get to the ehicle and cannot just take off at the drop of a hat and can be shot down etc. Now if they want a tactical effective vehicle that they will frequently use in combat, then we get into vehicle rules.

The short answer to all of your questions are - YOU AS GM know how much you will be emphasizing various traits and should set cost accordingly. Allow things that wont play a significant rolle as flavor for free or for really cheap, but with the understanding that its just gonna be for flavor not important to success/fail etc.

You set the costs. You choose the challenges. keep them in sync and its good. Get them out of whack and it can cause trouble. But neither I. nor anyone on this board, nor the original designers who set costs years ago have any clue what you specific campaign balances will be.



I’m sure that both combat and investigation will be important in this campaign but my opinion in that Skills are for “Heroes” not for “Superheros”.
Why spend character points for Climbing / Acrobatics / Breakfall / Riding / Swimming / Combat Driving /C. Piloting (unless you have a “Super vehicle”)when you can use Super movement (Fly, Super-jump, Wall- crawl, Teleport etc.) Why buy Interaction / Communication skills when you could use Mental Powers (Mind Control / Link / Scan) etc..
I’m looking for some sort of Skill discount for Superhero campaigns (House rules perhaps?)
Or is there any experienced “HERO builder” out there to make a “Lord of War” Power (Intuitive proficiency in any weapon/Vehicle) and how much should that cost.

(All Weapon Familiarity as skills would cost an incredible 52 (+all the worlds Vehicle Weapons) points)
(Should Weapon / Transport Familiarities be used at all in a Superhero campaign?)
How would you make a “Tongues” (Speak, Understand, Read & Write all languages) Power?

[Sean Waters]

One thing to consider is that many characters can utilise pretty much any skill in theory but probably never get seen doing it.

If you build a broad general character with highish stats and a few overall levels then, with GM permission, leave 20 or 30 character points undefined. If you come up against a skill you haven't defined but that would make sense for the character, the GM allows you to define the skill there and then from the point pool.

I mean, take any character in comics who has been about a long time and occasionally a creative writer will come up with a new power: I bet most Superman types have not bought 'Transform Coal to Diamond' - but I recall Supes doing that more than once.

One thing that got kicked about in the past was the idea of having different skill costs for different 'breadth' of knowledge: so a 3 point mechanic skill probably indicates someone good with cars, but lost on a submarine. As a 5 point (base) skill it indicates a broad category of machinery that the character is competent with and as a 10 point skill it means that you're good with pretty much any mechanical problem from a moped to a spaceship.

Some skill areas cost more in Hero BECAUSE they are better defined - but we could do away with that (for those who find the idea attractive) and buy weapon familiarity at 1 point (1 weapon or narrow category), 3 points (broad category), 5 points (all weapons from a given era or genre) and 10 for all weapons. You could do something similar with languages and science skills, transport familiarity and so on.

It sacrifices grittiness for scope.

[tesuji]

Ok in "some other systems" they use a mechanic called plot points or hero points for things like "i use my power rarely to do this tricky thing" or "yes i have this ability but it is rarely useful" kind of mechanics. it allows a broad span of "i can do lots of stuff that rarely comes into play." without letting it be too much of an open door for abuse - if you are a Gm worried about such.

HERO technically doesn't have such a mechanic in normal play - might be in the apg in some form - and i have used "expendable luck dice in the past for similar.

But what HERO does have is a thing called POWER SKILL. power skill in theory allows you to fan your firebolt rka into an AOE if you make the skill roll for that rare "i really need an aoe" or it allows you to generate smoke cloud from same firebolt even tho you haven't paid for it.

Now what you MIGHT want to consider doing is allowing in your supers game a "POWER SKILL: Skills " kind of thing to allow certain non-combat skills to be called up on demand even tho they were not bought.

Another alternative is a VPP skills

Another alternative is simply reducing costs of skills you deem "not that often important" to 1 cp or even 0 cp.

Another alternative would be a skills multipower.

But the long and short of it is - we can provide a gazillion ways to reduce skill costs but none of us can tell you which is RIGHT COST for your campaign.

[Bloodstone]

Batman wins every fight between the two characters: why would you think he is a lower point total?

Not true!

Why, just 5 years ago a mind controlled Superman nearly killed him. Bruce was only saved by the intervention of Wonder Woman.

She later went on to kick Superman's butt and prove that she should be built on more points :p

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

[Susano]

Well, if the guy us "Mr. Hollywood" I'd recommend Power: Hollywood Action Stunts and include things like flying planes, using a sword, and defusing a bomb to fall under this definition -- provided these were one-time occurrences.

[Rapier]

Well, if the guy us "Mr. Hollywood" I'd recommend Power: Hollywood Action Stunts and include things like flying planes, using a sword, and defusing a bomb to fall under this definition -- provided these were one-time occurrences.

MrHollywood's Player: "GeeeeEmmmmmmmmm! Why can't I hit anything? I'm an action star!"
GM: "Dude, you are a movie guy, you've never actually hit somebody with anything you just make it look like you did and they fall down. The villains have just decided not to fall down!"

[AmadanNaBriona]

Yes it is, even if you only want one at a time (VPP).

Might be able to pull it off with a Summon build

[ghost-angel]

Ok in "some other systems" they use a mechanic called plot points or hero points for things like "i use my power rarely to do this tricky thing" or "yes i have this ability but it is rarely useful" kind of mechanics. it allows a broad span of "i can do lots of stuff that rarely comes into play." without letting it be too much of an open door for abuse - if you are a Gm worried about such.

HERO technically doesn't have such a mechanic in normal play - might be in the apg in some form - and i have used "expendable luck dice in the past for similar.

Hero Action Points

Character Creation page 415
Combat And Adventuring page 287

Core Rules, Optional, but Core.

[Matt Holck]

Batman is not handicapped
He's differently enabled

[Susano]

Batman is not handicapped
He's differently enabled

Yeah, he as Plot Armor.

[dmjalund]

Yeah, he as Plot Armor.
AKA Combat Luck Extreme

[Opal]

Hero has been suffering from skill inflation for quite a while, that's what you're seeing. It should be less of an issue in 6th, since bricks and the like are no longer saving buckets of points from figured characteristics and ECs, but everyone gets more points to build with.

Do consider being selective about which skills you really need to take to represent your concept within the context of the campaign. Maybe you should know how to ride a camel, for instance, but if the GM can assure you it'll never come up, you shouldn't have to pay for it.

One thing I let skill-based characters do is save a few point for a 'panic skill.' That is, if at some point in the middle of play I ask "Anyone have knowledge of ancient babylonian succession wars?" the player of The Archeaologist can spend a point (he's got Scholar, obviously) and say "why, yes, yes I do." That way you don't have to overbuy skills to get everything you might concieveably have to concept, you only pay for what actually comes up (if only once) durring the campaign. I doubt your GM would go for that, but if you explain the problem nicely, he might allow something along those lines.

[Lucius]

Here's an Action Man built on 400 points

Action Man
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- Lift 400.0kg; 4d6 [2]
18 DEX 16 13- OCV: 6/DCV: 5
18 CON 8 13-
11 BODY 1
18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 13-
13 EGO 3 12- ECV: 3 - 5
25 PRE 15 14- PRE Attack: 5d6


5 PD 3 Total: 5 PD (0 rPD)
6 ED 4 Total: 6 ED (0 rED)
4 SPD 20 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
8 REC 4
20 END 0
28 STUN 4 Total Characteristic Cost: 124

Running: 9m/18m
Leaping: 4m/8m
Swimming: 4m/8m

Cost Powers END
72 Action Hero: Multipower, 90-point reserve, (90 Active Points); all slots Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4)
Notes: Note that the weapon abilities are Killing Attacks. Even a club is deadly in Action Man's hands. With these powers, there is no need for Weapon Familiarities. Nor is a Transport Familiarity needed for a "summoned" vehicle or mount. The Summoning is No Conscious Control because Action Man doesn't control or predict what may become available. If there is nothing to drive or ride around, he's stuck on foot.
4f 1) Guns, Guns, and more Guns: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Pistol, rifle, crossbow, thrown dagger, dart gun, plasma blaster, etc. ; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; Try to make it appropriate to weapon type, okay?; +1 3/4) (87 Active Points); Limited Power Damage/effect limited to weapon type +1 damage class (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4)
4f 2) Knives, Swords, and other Tools of Mayhem: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (2d6 w/STR), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Melee weapons; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; Try to make it appropriate to the weapon, okay?; +1 3/4) (87 Active Points); Limited Power Damage/effect limited to weapon type +1 damage class (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4)
2f 3) Drive, Fly, or Ride Anything: Summon 200-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings (Very Limited Group - any vehicle or mount; +1/4), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (90 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4) 9

8 Wounds? What wounds?: Regeneration (1 BODY per Hour)

7 Extreme Survivor : Life Support (Eating: Character only has to eat once per year (i.e. can survive for a year in the wilderness); Immunity: All natural hazards that could be dealt with via survival training/experience or incredible general toughnesst; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat), Usable Simultaneously ( i.e. he can take care of a whole party in the wilderness - find food, shelter, etc; +1 1/4), Grantor can take back power at any time, all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor, Recipient must remain close to Grantor (36 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, Character May Take No Other Actions, Must spend 6 hrs a day hunting, finding/making/maintaining shelter, building fire, cooking food, etc. ; -3 3/4), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4)

11 Move Like an Action Hero: Flight 9m, Position Shift, No Turn Mode (+1/4), Usable [As Teleportation] (+1/4), Usable [As Tunneling] (+1/4), Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Acrobatic leaps, effortless climbing, the "leave no tracks" trick, falling without taking (full) damage, escaping bonds (Teleport,) busting through doors (Tunnel) etc ; +1/4) (28 Active Points); Limited Power Cannot actually "fly" - only to simulate various Action Hero tricks (-1), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4), no Noncombat movement (-1/4) 3

1 Action Man doesn't sleep. He waits.: Life Support (Sleeping: Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week)

Exciting Hand to Hand Combat Action!
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Serpentine Running - Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
5 Take That! Offensive Strike -2 +1 Weapon +7 DC Strike
4 Parry - Martial Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
4 Coming to Grips - Reversal -1 -2 50 STR to Escape; Grab Two Limbs
3 Legsweep +2 -1 Weapon +4 DC Strike, Target Falls
1 Weapon Element: Default Element - Tools of Mayhem, Empty Hand
Notes: Because "Tools of Mayhem" is a single Power, Action Man need only buy the Weapon Element once - no matter how many different kinds of weapons he uses the Power with, the Power itself constitutes "one" weapon.
12 +3 HTH Damage Class(es)
Gunplay!
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Sniping - Distance Shot +0 -2 Strike +3 DC , +1 Segment
4 Deadly Aim - Offensive Shot -1 -1 Strike, +7 DC
4 Shoot the gun out of his hand - Ranged Disarm +0 +0 Disarm, +6 DC to Disarm
0 Weapon Element: Default Element - Guns and More Guns
12 +3 Ranged Damage Class(es)

Talents
12 It's just a flesh wound!: Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)
17 Knows all Human languages: Universal Translator 14- (21 Active Points); Limited Power Only languages he could concievably know (i.e. no Martial or Atlantean or Neanderthal) (-1/4)
22 I have a bad feeling about this...: Danger Sense (self only, out of combat, Function as a Sense) 13-

Skills
5 Action Hero : Power 16-
3 Combat Driving 13-
3 Combat Piloting 13-
3 Riding 13-
3 Concealment 13-
3 High Society 14-
3 Streetwise 14-
10 Defense Maneuver I-IV
24 +2 Overall

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 276
Total Cost: 400

400+ Disadvantages

Total Disadvantage Points: 400


Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary

[casualplayer]

The easiest way I've found to have familiarity with a broad suite of vehicles, weapons, knowledge skills, etc is to ask the GM what the penalty would be for being unfamiliar and then buying enough conditional Skill Levels to overcome those penalties. If the GM says riding a camel would be a -3 penalty to your Combat Riding: Horses and you have 3 Overall Levels Only for Always Looking Like You Know What You Are Doing then you are just as good on the back of a dromedary as you are on an appaloosa.

[Matt Holck]

AKA Combat Luck Extreme

I think I would go with damage reduct

[bigbywolfe]

Really? You would give Batman Damage Reduction instead of Combat Luck? I'm curious as to why.

[Matt Holck]

characters without kill resist are meant to bleed
damage reduct allows a character to take kill attacks without taking so much damage in one hit that it would kill it.
Even the scary 6d6 Kill would be reduced to 3d6 kill while a knife will still draw blood

[bigbywolfe]

I guess I understand that reasoning even if I don't agree with it.

[Bodkins Odds]

Doesn't Batman traditionally have very good body armour? Especially under that big yellow target on his chest? I would give him a level or two of combat luck, and then some resistant protection for the Batsuit. I might even give him a small amount of DN only against bullets for the steel plate under his bat symbol(with limited coverage if you're in a campaign with placed shots).

[Susano]

The armor plate under the bat symbol came from (I think) The Dark Night Returns. It was in the first Batman movie (with Tim Burton) that he wore a full-suit if armor as his costume. Before that he has a lot of extra DCV due to the cape and liking to stay in the shadows. Before that, he just didn't get hit with gunfire (but that was the 50s and 60s).

[AnotherSkip]

Having said that, yes, Skill Mongers can tend to cost a lot.

The problem, in my opinion, is that the Game values Skills more than most players and GM's do. I don't think this is a flaw of the system per se, as much as it is a habit of many players and GM's to think of anything that isnt a Power as being not good for much.


One of my players right now has Really shown me the advantages of a 17- effective Mechanics Skill....

the only pause I have for him right now is requiring a trap power to be in his multipower since he keeps on slamming the badguys with those (right before the team slaps them around of course).

[sheva]

Or is there any experienced “HERO builder” out there to make a “Lord of War” Power (Intuitive proficiency in any weapon/Vehicle) and how much should that cost.

(All Weapon Familiarity as skills would cost an incredible 52 (+all the worlds Vehicle Weapons) points)


I don't think anyone has answered this as such.
If that is the character concept, as a GM I would be inclined to allow it to be done as a power pool. Sort of a cosmic power pool that can be applied only as weapon and transport proficientcies.
You would likely need the GM's permission. I would allow it as a character concept, but disallow powergamers who just want to do things that way as its cost efficient.

[Lucius]

I don't think anyone has answered this as such.
If that is the character concept, as a GM I would be inclined to allow it to be done as a power pool. Sort of a cosmic power pool that can be applied only as weapon and transport proficientcies.
You would likely need the GM's permission. I would allow it as a character concept, but disallow powergamers who just want to do things that way as its cost efficient.

Well, I wrote a multipower that could cover it.

But these are another way -

Penalty Skill Levels: +3 vs. Non-proficiency penalty with to offset a specific negative OCV modifier with all attacks Real Points: 9

Combat Driving 18-, Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; Any form of ground transport; +1/2) (25 Active Points) Real Points: 25

Combat Piloting 18-, Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; Can fly anything. ; +1/2) (25 Active Points) Real Points: 25

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary

[Alibear]

Are the 9 point psl wepaon master a valid build in 6e? Steve specifically forbade it in 5.

[dmjalund]

he can't stop you from buying them as CSLs with limitations

[Alibear]

He can't stop you from doing whatever you like and I ignored him and left it in. Just that was a specific question he forbade. I really think 9 or 10 points is enough to be able to use any wepaon/ drive any vehicle etc.

[Escafarc]

The easiest way I've found to have familiarity with a broad suite of vehicles, weapons, knowledge skills, etc is to ask the GM what the penalty would be for being unfamiliar and then buying enough conditional Skill Levels to overcome those penalties. If the GM says riding a camel would be a -3 penalty to your Combat Riding: Horses and you have 3 Overall Levels Only for Always Looking Like You Know What You Are Doing then you are just as good on the back of a dromedary as you are on an appaloosa.

I do this with FH characters who are suppose to be weapons masters doesn't seem to be a problem.

[sheva]

he can't stop you from buying them as CSLs with limitations

I don't see any problem with what you guys are trying to do on this thread.
But I must disagree with what you say.
The flip side of the wondrous champions system allowing you to do just about anything is that it is subject to abuse to an incredible degree.
So its important that the GM know the game and how and when to say "no" to powergaming monstrosities of characters.

[Lucius]

Here's yet another way to do it:

Lord of War (compound power): (Total: 19 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Cramming , Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; +3/4) (9 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Weapon or Transport Familiarity (-1) (Real Cost: 4) plus Speed "Reading" (x10,000) (10 Active Points); Limited Power Only to learn a Weapon or Transport Familiarity (-2) (Real Cost: 3) Total Real Cost: 7

I figure this lets him familiarize himself with any weapon or vehicle almost instantly, or as a half phase action if it's something complicated.

Another option is to take several Familiarities, and apply the "Absolute Effect" rule, i.e. "Okay, you've spent enough that you can be considered familiar with literally everything."

Lucius Alexander

Transport Familiarity, Palindromedary