How would you

[JmOz]

One of the greatest strengths of the Hero system is that you can build powers in a multiple number of ways to get the same effect, so I am wondering what methods others have used for things that Steve and Crew have given official methods for.

[Monolith]

I do not think there are that many characters who have been given "official" powers. I think there are certain powers which seem nearly impossible to build, and thus get an official ruling (the Jericho Effect is a perfect example of this), but for the most part there are only a few of those types of powers.

Perhaps if you could give us some specific examples we can give you a better answer.

[Yamo]

Inherent Growth/Shrinking doesn't work for every big/small character, but it does for most of them. I will never understand why 5th goes so far out of its way to quash this practice utterly. It's simple and usually works exactly as desired.

That's my main break from by-the-book construction methods.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Monolith
I do not think there are that many characters who have been given "official" powers. I think there are certain powers which seem nearly impossible to build, and thus get an official ruling (the Jericho Effect is a perfect example of this), but for the most part there are only a few of those types of powers.

Perhaps if you could give us some specific examples we can give you a better answer.

Why bother, you gave a perfect one with the Jerico effect, other things off the top of my head is combineing vehicles or time stoping

[Yamo]

I really wish they'd publish a definitive time-stopping power. Really.

The best I can figure is:

1. An area effect Entagle, constant, NND (defense is the target possessing his/her own time manipulation powers), IPE, opaque to all sense groups, megascale big enough to cover entire campaign setting, personal immunity.

2. 100 or more STR Telekinesis with the same area of effect, personal immunity, and IPE to hold inanimate objects in place.

3. Total Life Support with the same area of effect.

It would all probably have to be 0 END, too.

Anyway, this NEEDS to show up somewhere. In the UNTIL powers book ideally.

[JmOz]

Actualy a while back Steve did do a definitive time stop power, it is I think going to be in the next Digital Hero (and am sure it will be in the new powers book coming out as well)

My form of that one is a 40d6 Suppress on speed with a link of 1" Flight, and a link of a FW that surrounds the field, remember Personal Imunity

The Flight is to prevent things from falling, the forcewall stops incoming attacks and the suppress stops everything from moving, also needed is Invisibility to all senses linked to it as well

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JmOz
Why bother, you gave a perfect one with the Jerico effect, other things off the top of my head is combineing vehicles or time stoping

Jerico Effect (Monolith version):
43 Jericho Effect: Elemental Control, 86-point Powers
23 1) Grab The Body: Mind Control 10d6, Telepathic (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Feedback (Character Takes All Damage Possessed Character Takes) (-1), Eye Contact Required (-1/2) 4
22 2) See Through Possessed Eyes: Clairsentience (Sight Group; Additional Sense Group: Hearing Group, Additional Sense Group: Smell/Taste Group, Additional Sense Group: Touch Group), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Only Through Eyes Of Possessed (-1) 4
8 Disappear: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Linked to Mind Control (-1/2)

Time Stop (Monolith version):
97 Temperal Suspension: Drain 3d6: SPD, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Selective Target (+1/4) (97 Active Points)

Vehicle Merging (Monolith version)
36 Morph Vehicle: Multiform (1000 Character Points in the most expensive form) (200 Active Points); OAF Blue Vehicle (-1), OAF Red Vehicle (-1), OAF Green Vehicle (-1), OAF Yellow Vehicle (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
Jerico Effect (Monolith version)

Time Stop (Monolith version)

Vehicle Merging (Monolith version)

*Sneaks in and steals ideas while Monolith's titanic back is turned*

[Monolith]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
*Sneaks in and steals ideas while Monolith's titanic back is turned*
I knew I never should have left to go get my Visine. :)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith
Jerico Effect (Monolith version):
43 Jericho Effect: Elemental Control, 86-point Powers
23 1) Grab The Body: Mind Control 10d6, Telepathic (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Feedback (Character Takes All Damage Possessed Character Takes) (-1), Eye Contact Required (-1/2) 4
22 2) See Through Possessed Eyes: Clairsentience (Sight Group; Additional Sense Group: Hearing Group, Additional Sense Group: Smell/Taste Group, Additional Sense Group: Touch Group), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2) (87 Active Points); Only Through Eyes Of Possessed (-1) 4
8 Disappear: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2), Linked to Mind Control (-1/2)

Time Stop (Monolith version):
97 Temperal Suspension: Drain 3d6: SPD, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Selective Target (+1/4) (97 Active Points)

Vehicle Merging (Monolith version)
36 Morph Vehicle: Multiform (1000 Character Points in the most expensive form) (200 Active Points); OAF Blue Vehicle (-1), OAF Red Vehicle (-1), OAF Green Vehicle (-1), OAF Yellow Vehicle (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2)

The autofire spd drain needs another +1 advantage for being a nonstandard autofire attack for a total of 127 active points. Of course, this attack won't affect things like bullets, arrows, or falls... :rolleyes:

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
The autofire spd drain needs another +1 advantage for being a nonstandard autofire attack for a total of 127 active points. Of course, this attack won't affect things like bullets, arrows, or falls... :rolleyes:
I forgot about the Non-Standard Advantage. I guess that means the player will have to Rapid Fire it instead. That makes it cheaper anyway. :)

True it will not stop someone from falling, but if you are going to want to cover the entire gambit of what time stop can do you might also want to build a Change Enviroment power with some TK to show the full range of effects from stopping time. My version just stops time for some selected individuals, not for the everything. Steve already did a version for that. :)

[tesuji]

My take on vehicle merging is a little different...

Buy the BIG HONKIN' full voltron form as a vehicle.

Give that vehicle a multiform to a lesser vehicle (Red) and give red an always on (at -0) inherent duplication to make the other vehicles.

Net result, when the big V multiforms into the red sled, the others appear as well.

you need only to add a limitation that you can only multiform back to the big V when all duplicates are present. -1/2 maybe -1/4

[tesuji]

Book not in front of me...

"Vehicle Merging (Monolith version)
36 Morph Vehicle: Multiform (1000 Character Points in the most expensive form) (200 Active Points); OAF Blue Vehicle (-1), OAF Red Vehicle (-1), OAF Green Vehicle (-1), OAF Yellow Vehicle (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2)"

I think BTB the multiple foci allows each additional required foci to raise the limitation value by 1/4, not for each to be applied at full.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by tesuji
I think BTB the multiple foci allows each additional required foci to raise the limitation value by 1/4, not for each to be applied at full.
I believe you are correct, but I would allow this due to the fact that all four characters lose all of their powers. Green, Red, Blue, and Yellow Vehicles are no more (and thus only one character gets to act and move).

Merging robots are a rare thing overall though, and since it is not something which comes up often in most genres, I am not going to worry about it too much. I also do not remember the "official" version in TUV (do not have the book yet and do not remember the manuscript description) and I might end up liking that version better. :)

[mattingly]

Actualy a while back Steve did do a definitive time stop power, it is I think going to be in the next Digital Hero

Quite right. The power to stop ALL TIME, throughout the ENTIRE UNIVERSE.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith
I forgot about the Non-Standard Advantage. I guess that means the player will have to Rapid Fire it instead. That makes it cheaper anyway. :)

True it will not stop someone from falling, but if you are going to want to cover the entire gambit of what time stop can do you might also want to build a Change Enviroment power with some TK to show the full range of effects from stopping time. My version just stops time for some selected individuals, not for the everything. Steve already did a version for that. :)

I think you would need some massive area effect NND or AVLD telekinesis to pull it off. The NND or AVLD part would be needed so that mere strength or power couldn't break out.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
I think you would need some massive area effect NND or AVLD telekinesis to pull it off. The NND or AVLD part would be needed so that mere strength or power couldn't break out.
Time Stop Effects: Change Enviroment 4" Radious +20 TK. 72 Active Points.

This would hold anything up to 400 kg in place while the SPD drain made it impossible for those characters to take an action. You could put both the CE and Drain into a Time Stop Elemental to bring the power's costs down.

[Yamo]

The problem with that is that many of us aren't interested in digital publications, PDFs, and the like. I've bought every HERO book so far, but I have no desire to try DH. I would like ideally time stopping in physical print somewhere.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo
The problem with that is that many of us aren't interested in digital publications, PDFs, and the like. I've bought every HERO book so far, but I have no desire to try DH. I would like ideally time stopping in physical print somewhere.
The version of Time Stop that Steve did was pubished on the old forum. I would bet there will be an example or two of time powers in the USPD coming out in April though. :)

[Yamo]

This would hold anything up to 400 kg in place while the SPD drain made it impossible for those characters to take an action. You could put both the CE and Drain into a Time Stop Elemental to bring the power's costs down.

Yeah, but what about something like a massive 747 airliner zipping through the air with 700+ MPH of momentum behind it? Or stopping an entire planet in its orbit?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith
Time Stop Effects: Change Enviroment 4" Radious +20 TK. 72 Active Points.

This would hold anything up to 400 kg in place while the SPD drain made it impossible for those characters to take an action. You could put both the CE and Drain into a Time Stop Elemental to bring the power's costs down.

If you don't completely drain the target's spd down to 0, you'll get the silly effect of a strong character being able to walk around and leave the area of effect, and a weak character not being able to do so. The NND or AVLD would stop this effect. Also, power defense stops the spd drain, which may not be appropriate.

Also, you would need lots more TK, since timestop should be able to stop heavy objects like thrown tanks just as easily as light objects. The spd drain only stops controlled movement, not uncontrolled movement.

I don't think you're allowed to link 2 attacks in the same EC.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
If you don't completely drain the target's spd down to 0, you'll get the silly effect of a strong character being able to walk around and leave the area of effect, and a weak character not being able to do so. The NND or AVLD would stop this effect. Also, power defense stops the spd drain, which may not be appropriate.
3d6, on average, will drain a point of Speed. It is not always accurate, but close enough. Also a 5x Rapid Fire will will drain someone from 5 to 0 Speed. For characters with more Speed, or for poor rolls, you could easily state that it is a slowing process. That is all part of the SFX.


Also, you would need lots more TK, since timestop should be able to stop heavy objects like thrown tanks just as easily as light objects. The spd drain only stops controlled movement, not uncontrolled movement.
Once again, my example was for personal time stop, not the 10,000 point version Steve did for Universal Time Stop. :) The TK would slow things down, but it would not stop items weighing more than 400 kg which entered the field.


I don't think you're allowed to link 2 attacks in the same EC.
I did not say to link them. I said to put each of the powers into an EC slot to bring the cost down. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo
Yeah, but what about something like a massive 747 airliner zipping through the air with 700+ MPH of momentum behind it? Or stopping an entire planet in its orbit?
Anything can be built on enough points. Steve's example Universal Time Stop was several thousand points. Most 350 point superheroes will not have enough power to stop a 747 zipping through the air at 700 MPH. Some things cannot be done on 350 points, no matter how badly we would like them to be.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Yamo
Inherent Growth/Shrinking doesn't work for every big/small character, but it does for most of them. I will never understand why 5th goes so far out of its way to quash this practice utterly. It's simple and usually works exactly as desired.

That's my main break from by-the-book construction methods.
Agreed. Though I do like that they've opened up a way to purchase intermediate levels of all the mass/volume-changing powers. Particularly when it comes to Shrinking. In my Opinion Supreme, Shrinking gets kind of sick after three levels. Your DCV becomes so high that you'll never get hit by anybody. When I put that in a framework with other mass/volume-changing powers I wind up with a character who can grow or DI to a 60 STR, but can only shrink to 9" tall. That always seemed so lame to me. Except when he's in his Secret ID, the Atom never stands at more than 3" tall.

[Yamo]

Anything can be built on enough points. Steve's example Universal Time Stop was several thousand points. Most 350 point superheroes will not have enough power to stop a 747 zipping through the air at 700 MPH. Some things cannot be done on 350 points, no matter how badly we would like them to be.

Yes, but who said anything about 350 points? :confused:

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo
Yes, but who said anything about 350 points? :confused:
Well I think most of us prefer to see power examples which can be utilized by player characters. But as I said above, I am sure you will see some Time powers in the USPD for more inspiration of you do not wish to purchase Digital Hero. I am content to use my personel version above. :)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith
3d6, on average, will drain a point of Speed. It is not always accurate, but close enough. Also a 5x Rapid Fire will will drain someone from 5 to 0 Speed. For characters with more Speed, or for poor rolls, you could easily state that it is a slowing process. That is all part of the SFX.


Once again, my example was for personal time stop, not the 10,000 point version Steve did for Universal Time Stop. :) The TK would slow things down, but it would not stop items weighing more than 400 kg which entered the field.


I did not say to link them. I said to put each of the powers into an EC slot to bring the cost down. :)

The biggest problems are that power defense stops it, and that strong or heavy characters have a huge advantage compared to weak characters. Neither of these seem appropriate to a timestop power.

If the 2 powers are in a EC, that would mean that you would have to use them in consecutive phases, which could lead to inappropriate side effects.

[Monolith]

For Yamo:
Time Stop: Telekinesis (150 STR), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Selective Target (+1/4), Megascale (Planet) (1" = 10000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down: 1" = 1km (+1/4) (900 Active Points)

This version should stop everything and everyone dead in their tracks on the whole planet. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
The biggest problems are that power defense stops it, and that strong or heavy characters have a huge advantage compared to weak characters. Neither of these seem appropriate to a timestop power.
The Speed Drain has nothing to do with how strong the person in the AE is. Power Defense is an issue, but that is rare, and once again who says Power Defense isn't the negator of Time Stop? :)


If the 2 powers are in a EC, that would mean that you would have to use them in consecutive phases, which could lead to inappropriate side effects.
You are unfamiliar with the concept of MPA and Zero Phase actions I take it?

[Yamo]

This version should stop everything and everyone dead in their tracks on the whole planet.

Excellent! I would just add a Darkness versus all sense groups and total LS to cover the same area. Not bad.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo
Excellent! I would just add a Darkness versus all sense groups and total LS to cover the same area. Not bad.
It's not perfect, and mentalists would still have an action, but if you use your Darkness versus the Mental Group too, they will be dead in their tracks too.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith
The Speed Drain has nothing to do with how strong the person in the AE is. Power Defense is an issue, but that is rare, and once again who says Power Defense isn't the negator of Time Stop? :)


You are unfamiliar with the concept of MPA and Zero Phase actions I take it?

The strength part is if spd isn't fully drained. Example, a 10 str energy projector gets drained to 1 spd. This projector is helpless, unless he has enough flight to blast out. A str 60 brick drained to 1 spd can easily leap, run, or fly out of the tk, since even his casual str is enough to break it. Thus, strong characters have an advantage.

I didn't think you were allowed to use MPA with 2 slots in a EC. I could be wrong about this, since I don't have the rule book with me.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
The strength part is if spd isn't fully drained. Example, a 10 str energy projector gets drained to 1 spd. This projector is helpless, unless he has enough flight to blast out. A str 60 brick drained to 1 spd can easily leap, run, or fly out of the tk, since even his casual str is enough to break it. Thus, strong characters have an advantage.
This is true, but it is not an absolute. In most games a brick will only have a 4-5 Speed, and thus will be a 0 Speed when he is hit. This means he will not get an attempt to break out.

If your game has everyone with 6-8 Speeds then you would probably need to Rapid Fire the attack 6-7 times instead of 5. :)


I didn't think you were allowed to use MPA with 2 slots in a EC. I could be wrong about this, since I don't have the rule book with me.
You aren't allowed too. That was my mistake when I typed it. But you are allowed to activate a Change Enviroment as a zero phase action, just as you are a Darkness field. Thus you zero phase the CE and then attack with the Drain.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith
This is true, but it is not an absolute. In most games a brick will only have a 4-5 Speed, and thus will be a 0 Speed when he is hit. This means he will not get an attempt to break out.

If your game has everyone with 6-8 Speeds then you would probably need to Rapid Fire the attack 6-7 times instead of 5. :)


You aren't allowed too. That was my mistake when I typed it. But you are allowed to activate a Change Enviroment as a zero phase action, just as you are a Darkness field. Thus you zero phase the CE and then attack with the Drain.

I'll concede that you can simply up the number of dice of the speed drain to zap everyone.

I thought any power that requires an attack roll ended your phase. I'm pretty sure that CE, Darkness, Images, and Force Wall all require an attack roll, even if trivial.

[MisterVimes]

Here's an easy cop-out

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost&#160;&#160;</b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1219&#160;&#160;</td><td><b><i>Time Stop: </i></b>Transform 25d6: Transforms all targets into targets frozen in time (Major), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Megascale (planet) (1" = 10000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down: 1" = 1km (+1/4) (1219 Active Points)&#160;</td><td valign="top" align="right">122</td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 1219

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
I thought any power that requires an attack roll ended your phase. I'm pretty sure that CE, Darkness, Images, and Force Wall all require an attack roll, even if trivial.
You might be right there. That I do not remember off the top of my head. If it is considered an attack power then I would buy both powers outside of an EC and then link the Drain to the CE.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Here's an easy cop-out

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost&#160;&#160;</b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1219&#160;&#160;</td><td><b><i>Time Stop: </i></b>Transform 25d6: Transforms all targets into targets frozen in time (Major), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Megascale (planet) (1" = 10000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down: 1" = 1km (+1/4) (1219 Active Points)&#160;</td><td valign="top" align="right">122</td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 1219
There we go. MisterVimes has solved the issue for us all. But I do so hate using Transform for everything. :)

[Arkham]

This is a bit quirky, and IDHMBIFOM, so I will
probably be off on the points and modifiers...

Extradimensional travel 20 Other times +20
Time travel only -1/2 Only to the beginning of this phase -1
Constant +1 ( 80 active, 32 real ) PLUS Desolid linked -1/2
( 40 active, 27 real ) Total cost 59 real points.

Special effect being that everything the character
isn't interacting with stays still instead of zipping back
and forth for 1second of movement.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
There we go. MisterVimes has solved the issue for us all. But I do so hate using Transform for everything. :)

Yeah... me too. But in the case of Time Stoppage, I might consider using it just because there are SO many factors. If you were to go with a SPD drain AND Darkness (all sense including mental) AND 300+ STR TK AND grant everyone LS: Does not age during the effect, that's one raeally big power that could just as easily be defined as "Hey guys... um, time stopped... just an FYI."

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Arkham
IDHMBIFOM

This is officially my favroite acronym

For those who didn't get it: I-Don't-Have-My-Book-In-Front-Of-Me

*LOL*

That's great.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Arkham
Extradimensional travel 20 Other times +20
Time travel only -1/2 Only to the beginning of this phase -1
Constant +1 ( 80 active, 32 real ) PLUS Desolid linked -1/2
( 40 active, 27 real ) Total cost 59 real points.

Special effect being that everything the character
isn't interacting with stays still instead of zipping back
and forth for 1second of movement.
You would need Usable As Attack on there, and then probably some Reduced End, but I could see that being a very useful single person Time Stop as well.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Yeah... me too. But in the case of Time Stoppage, I might consider using it just because there are SO many factors. If you were to go with a SPD drain AND Darkness (all sense including mental) AND 300+ STR TK AND grant everyone LS: Does not age during the effect, that's one raeally big power that could just as easily be defined as "Hey guys... um, time stopped... just an FYI."
I think Time Stop is, just as Steve has said for the "Rogue Effect", something which should be powers outside of the player's ability to have. They are caveat powers which few players have the maturity to use in genre. For example:

Extra-Dimensional Movement, Usable As Attack. 40 AP.

There is an absolute power that a player could depopulate the entire gaming univese with. While that power works well in the GM's hands as part of a controlled storyline (as with Nebula), it does not work well in the player's hands.

Ultimately all the powers mentioned in this thread are major Stop Sign powers, and most of them should not be allowed to player characters for fear of inbalance. GMs do not have control over an adventure like the writer of a comic book does, and that can lead to a great deal of danger.

[Arkham]

Originally posted by Monolith
You would need Usable As Attack on there, and then probably some Reduced End, but I could see that being a very useful single person Time Stop as well.

Why would you need usable as attack? The only one
technically traveling though time is the user... The desolid
is mostly there so that if they stand still for a turn, they
don't timetravel into themselves and get hurt...

And as a GM, I wouldn't allow 0 end, otherwise the
PC could wander around indefinately with the whole
Multiverse stuck in time, until they decide to release it.

But 1/2 end, I could see. That's an expensive power.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Arkham
Why would you need usable as attack? The only one
technically traveling though time is the user... The desolid
is mostly there so that if they stand still for a turn, they
don't timetravel into themselves and get hurt...
I thought you were discussing a power that made time stop for someone else. I did not realize you meant that time would stop for the user. My bad. :)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
I think Time Stop is, just as Steve has said for the "Rogue Effect", something which should be powers outside of the player's ability to have. They are caveat powers which few players have the maturity to use in genre. For example:

Extra-Dimensional Movement, Usable As Attack. 40 AP.

There is an absolute power that a player could depopulate the entire gaming univese with. While that power works well in the GM's hands as part of a controlled storyline (as with Nebula), it does not work well in the player's hands.

Twilight zone "It's a Good Life" anyone?


Ultimately all the powers mentioned in this thread are major Stop Sign powers, and most of them should not be allowed to player characters for fear of inbalance. GMs do not have control over an adventure like the writer of a comic book does, and that can lead to a great deal of danger.

I think that goes without saying (but some players might need it said anyway).

[Arkham]

Originally posted by Monolith
I thought you were discussing a power that made time stop for someone else. I did not realize you meant that time would stop for the user. My bad. :)

It's all good. :)

Now given that it is intended for the PC to essentially
'step out of time' for a while, does it work thematically, and
rules-wise for the issue at hand?

And all for less than 60 real points?

[JmOz]

I would agree (with the possible exception of the Jerico effect) that these are not for players hands, but it can be fun to design them anyways...

[MisterVimes]

Here is my take on the Jericho effect... nit-pick

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost&#160;&#160;</b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">67&#160;&#160;</td><td><b><i>Jericho Effect: </i></b>Multiform (only to become character 'controlled' (500 Character Points in the most expensive form), Reversion (+0) (100 Active Points); Costs END (Only To Change) (Only To Change; -1/2) [<b>Notes:</b> Used to become controlled character]&#160;</td><td valign="top" align="right">10</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3&#160;&#160;</td><td><b><i>Jericho Effect II: </i></b>Teleportation 1", Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (5 Active Points); Linked to Jericho Effect (-1/2) [<b>Notes:</b> Used to move controlled target away]&#160;</td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 70

[Gary]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Here is my take on the Jericho effect... nit-pick

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost&#160;&#160;</b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">67&#160;&#160;</td><td><b><i>Jericho Effect: </i></b>Multiform (only to become character 'controlled' (500 Character Points in the most expensive form), Reversion (+0) (100 Active Points); Costs END (Only To Change) (Only To Change; -1/2) [<b>Notes:</b> Used to become controlled character]&#160;</td><td valign="top" align="right">10</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3&#160;&#160;</td><td><b><i>Jericho Effect II: </i></b>Teleportation 1", Transdimensional (Single Dimension; +1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (5 Active Points); Linked to Jericho Effect (-1/2) [<b>Notes:</b> Used to move controlled target away]&#160;</td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 70

What happens if the multiform dies? Does the target return or stay in limbo?

Also, I think you need extra dimensional movement, not 1" teleport with the transdimensional advantage.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Here's an easy cop-out
(example snipped)

Try this one: It will stop pretty much ANYONE, eventually (except those with Power Defense), even those who are intangible (Affects Desolid). The cost listed is for 1d6; season to taste by buying multiple d6's to speed up the effect. The focus is a gold pocketwatch (for nostalgia's sake; remember that bad old TV-movie?)

Using the rules for partial Transforms, everyone would sloooow down until they stopped.

The way to stop the "Uncontrolled" is that after one minute of 'internal' time for the user, the effect shuts off, and the Transform is an all-or-nothing reversion as well (reverts when the watch shuts off). I toyed with the idea of using a charge that lasts for 1 minute, but didn't really see it was necessary, since I had to define a way to stop the "Uncontrolled" in any case.

<table width="100%" cellpadding=0 border=0><tr valign="top"><td align="right"><b>Pts.&nbsp;</b></td><td align="left"><b>Powers</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top" align="right">43&nbsp;&nbsp;</td><td valign="top" align="left"><b><i>Time Stop: </i></b>Transform 1d6: Transform all targets into targets frozen in time (Major), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Affects Desolidified (Any form of Desolidification; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Megascale (1" = 10000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down: 1" = 1km (+1/4) (86 Active Points); Gold Pocketwatch IAF Fragile (-3/4), Gestures (Must push button on watch) (-1/4)&nbsp;</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan="3" valign="top" align="left">&nbsp;</td></tr></table>

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Try this one: It will stop pretty much ANYONE, eventually (except those with Power Defense), even those who are intangible (Affects Desolid). The cost listed is for 1d6; season to taste by buying multiple d6's to speed up the effect. The focus is a gold pocketwatch (for nostalgia's sake; remember that bad old TV-movie?)

Using the rules for partial Transforms, everyone would sloooow down until they stopped.

The way to stop the "Uncontrolled" is that after one minute of 'internal' time for the user, the effect shuts off, and the Transform is an all-or-nothing reversion as well (reverts when the watch shuts off). I toyed with the idea of using a charge that lasts for 1 minute, but didn't really see it was necessary, since I had to define a way to stop the "Uncontrolled" in any case.

<table width="100%" cellpadding=0 border=0><tr valign="top"><td align="right"><b>Pts.&nbsp;</b></td><td align="left"><b>Powers</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td valign="top" align="right">43&nbsp;&nbsp;</td><td valign="top" align="left"><b><i>Time Stop: </i></b>Transform 1d6: Transform all targets into targets frozen in time (Major), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Affects Desolidified (Any form of Desolidification; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Megascale (1" = 10000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down: 1" = 1km (+1/4) (86 Active Points); Gold Pocketwatch IAF Fragile (-3/4), Gestures (Must push button on watch) (-1/4)&nbsp;</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr valign="top"><td colspan="3" valign="top" align="left">&nbsp;</td></tr></table>

So it would take longer to slow down a fat person than a supermodel? ;)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by Gary
So it would take longer to slow down a fat person than a supermodel? ;)

Well...if the fat person has more BODY, then yeah, I guess so...

I *did* toy with making the effect vs. CON or EGO instead of BOD, but in the end decided it wasn't worth the extra hassle, and the final result probably wouldn't vary by much. :)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly
Well...if the fat person has more BODY, then yeah, I guess so...

I *did* toy with making the effect vs. CON or EGO instead of BOD, but in the end decided it wasn't worth the extra hassle, and the final result probably wouldn't vary by much. :)

Of course, you still have the same problem with relatively heavy objects from the outside. It works too slowly to stop a falling man from splatting, for example, or a tank shell, or the tank for the matter.

[Dr. Anomaly]

So buy more dice of the effect. At 43 per d6, a starting 350 point character could get 8d6, with a few paltry points left over for some skills. (No, I don't see actually letting a PC have this Power, let alone a starting PC. This is really just an exercise.)

If you want a more sure-fire thing, then buy 25d6 like Mr. Vimes suggested, at a cost of 1075 points. To REALLY make sure, buy 50d6 so you can get even BOD 25 people/things in one shot. But by this point, you're well up there into la-la land as far as points & balance goes anyway...i.e. into the realm of GM fiat / plot device / cosmic NPCs. :)

[Zaratustra]

This is being looked at the wrong way. The essential part of a Time Stop is not that you slow down every single object individually, it's that you stop the universe.

But what is the universe's SPD? Deriving from FRED's rules regarding physics, that state a character's acceleration changes at most once per segment, we can deduct the universe's SPD is 12.

So all we need to do is hit the universe with a SPD Drain of 120 points, which amounts to 40d6 with Fixed Effect. Since the universe is everywhere, there is no need to roll an attack, unless it aborts to dodge.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Zaratustra
This is being looked at the wrong way. The essential part of a Time Stop is not that you slow down every single object individually, it's that you stop the universe.

But what is the universe's SPD? Deriving from FRED's rules regarding physics, that state a character's acceleration changes at most once per segment, we can deduct the universe's SPD is 12.

So all we need to do is hit the universe with a SPD Drain of 120 points, which amounts to 40d6 with Fixed Effect. Since the universe is everywhere, there is no need to roll an attack, unless it aborts to dodge.

I like your thinking. :) However, the problem with this approach is that things that were already in motion with no spd score, such as falling objects or the planet Earth for that matter, would still be in motion even after the 'time stop'.

[dbsousa]

Time Stop +60 SPD and +60 DEX (780 pts.) 1 charge (-2) OAF Pocket Watch (-1) Extra Time, Full Phase plus a segment (-3/4?) Real Cost: 164 points

This power gives you 5 full actions to do whatever you can do before anything else can move. Because the essential part of a Time Stop is not that you slow down every single object individually, or that you stop the universe. It's that you may act when nothing else can.

I am willing to bet though, that this is not a legal construction...

[Arkham]

Wow, all these strangely convoluted power constructions,
and no one has commented upon my Continuous EDT-Time version.

So, here's another shot.

Time stop:
Extradimensional travel 20 Any other time +20
Time travel only -1/2 Only to the beginning of user's
phase -1 Continuous +1 1 Charge -2 OAF Fragile
( pocketwatch ) -1 ( 80 active, 15 real )
PLUS Desolid linked -1/2 1 Continuing charge -1?
( 40 active, 16 real )
Total cost 31 real points.

Maybe add 10 Str, linked, Affects real world if you
want to actually change things around while the rest of
the world is stuck in your one little second.

How you would set it up as a 'defensive' action that you
can abort to, I don't know. I'm still fairly new to Hero.
Maybe add 'triggered' to go off when you push the button
on the watch.

[tiger]

Time Stop

30D6 Spd Suppression or Drain Area effect, AP.

To this one could add continous for set phases, charges etc.

On a roll off 1 it would drain 15 points from someone with harden Power Defense or 30 for those without. That would slow or stop normals or some heroic levels. An 2 would be 30 points or 60, thus stopping quite a few different levels.

Add it person immunity and the caster could walk right by. One could add limitation so that the effect only works on those in the area when the Time Stop is used. Thus one could go into the area after the initial power use.

While this is quite expensive it would do the job well.

A large invisble entangle could work as well. The special effect would be time stop but the mechanics would be an entangle. Base it on ECV and then a Characters EGO (+1to+2 ADV.) is used to break out of the attck. This would work as well.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Arkham
Wow, all these strangely convoluted power constructions,
and no one has commented upon my Continuous EDT-Time version.

So, here's another shot.

Time stop:
Extradimensional travel 20 Any other time +20
Time travel only -1/2 Only to the beginning of user's
phase -1 Continuous +1 1 Charge -2 OAF Fragile
( pocketwatch ) -1 ( 80 active, 15 real )
PLUS Desolid linked -1/2 1 Continuing charge -1?
( 40 active, 16 real )
Total cost 31 real points.

Maybe add 10 Str, linked, Affects real world if you
want to actually change things around while the rest of
the world is stuck in your one little second.

How you would set it up as a 'defensive' action that you
can abort to, I don't know. I'm still fairly new to Hero.
Maybe add 'triggered' to go off when you push the button
on the watch.

Actually, I was about to comment on your previous post, since I was actually thinking of the same take on this power. However, I felt compelled to followup on everyone else's take on this, and I just now caught up...

I have to agree with you on your write up. I was thinking (dangerous, I know, but that happens sometimes), that I should try and work backwards from the effects. The power is intended to stop time. Well, being a long time fan of theoretical physics, (even if I only understand half of it), I realized that time stops for the user in relation to the rest of the universe. So the character has to step out of the universe.
Hence, Extradimensional Movement.
Now, time really only stops in the universe from the PCs POV. To the rest of us he wouldn't even seem to disappear, or anything. Things would just be different all of a sudden.
But how is it that XDM is defined in this case? Time is one of the 4 'perceived dimensions' of which we IRL are all aware. It is a dimension, and as such,is being travelled through to the same point over and over again indefinately until the PC turns it off.
Hence, "Only To The Beginning Of User's Phase". (although I might make that Specified Phase?)
Now, the problem comes from the character's ability or lack thereof to interact with the rest of the universe. A character with this power, theoretically, could stop time, walk up to the the big Dr. D, and with (e.g.) a piece of notebook paper (and one helluva paper cut), slice the Jugular of said supervillain. over and over and over... :eek:

Needless to say, that would be a hugely abusive power. So to keep that from happening, if the Player really wanted the power, I would require him to have something in place which would keep him from making any real changes to the universe and less paperwork for me.

Hence, Desolid.

[Chris Goodwin]

Extradimensional Movement: to the "go time" dimension (where this dimension is stopped). If you don't like that dimension, make it to the "ultrafast" dimension, where the time flow ratio from there to here is a billion to one. One of the properties of that dimension is that it reflects everything that is in the real world. You can then buy your STR Transdimensional to affect things in the real world.

[tiger]

If your gonna use Extra Dim Movement you also have to add use as an attack.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by tiger
If your gonna use Extra Dim Movement you also have to add use as an attack.

Why? You're traveling to the "fast" or "go" dimension.

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by Arkham
Wow, all these strangely convoluted power constructions,
and no one has commented upon my Continuous EDT-Time version.

So, here's another shot.

Time stop:
Extradimensional travel 20 Any other time +20
Time travel only -1/2 Only to the beginning of user's
phase -1 Continuous +1 1 Charge -2 OAF Fragile
( pocketwatch ) -1 ( 80 active, 15 real )
PLUS Desolid linked -1/2 1 Continuing charge -1?
( 40 active, 16 real )
Total cost 31 real points.

First: will your GM let your character alter the past?? If not, you've got problems. There are other problems if altering the past results in the creation of an alternate time line.

Why is the Desolid given a Continuing Charge? Since it's Linked, it will only work while the XDM is, which gives the same effect.

BTW, I'd give the XDM a limited 'time' that it works: Continuing Charge of, say, 5 minutes would do nicely, or perhaps only 1 minute.


Maybe add 10 Str, linked, Affects real world if you
want to actually change things around while the rest of
the world is stuck in your one little second.

Easier would be a naked Advantage: Affects Real World +2 on whatever the character's STR is. Or, for only 5 or 10 of the character's STR.

BTW, I don't think such a character would "repeat" only one second; depending on how the GM defines a character's Phase, it may repeat the entire ____ second long time from the start of Phase X to the start of Phase X+1.
Unless you're planning to give this character SPD 12?


How you would set it up as a 'defensive' action that you
can abort to, I don't know. I'm still fairly new to Hero.
Maybe add 'triggered' to go off when you push the button
on the watch.

Yes, Trigger is what you'd want for that.

[BasilDrag]

Originally posted by archer
Extradimensional Movement: to the "go time" dimension (where this dimension is stopped). If you don't like that dimension, make it to the "ultrafast" dimension, where the time flow ratio from there to here is a billion to one.

I prefer this to the back-to-the-start-of-the-phase time loop XDM. Time loops are very tricksy things.

One addition I would make: every instant of time in the "real" world creates & is linked to a different "go time" plane. Thus, the character needs to buy an Adder to go to "a related group of dimensions". I'd make this a +5 Adder, as it would *not* allow travel to any location in said group. (see FrED p.111 for the +5 and +10 Adders as given)


Originally posted by archer One of the properties of that dimension is that it reflects everything that is in the real world. You can then buy your STR Transdimensional to affect things in the real world.

I would say the character would need one or more Sense with the Transdimensional Advantage, and say the "go time" dimension shows nothing of the "real" world---or at least, very, very little of it.

--
OK, who's this strange Ian the Cthulhu fans are always talking about?