Gripe about Champions Battlegrounds!

[championsguru]

I'm disappointed with this book. They expect that you have access to Champions, Champions Universe and CKC. You can't just pick up the book and run it.

80% of the villains listed in the adventures aren't in the book, but are in the other three.

If you already have Champions, Champions Universe and CKC I would recommend the book. The first adventure is very smartly written and spaced out (only one I've read so far). If the others are half as smart as the first it is well worth it. I love modules that give you play by play instead of just a loose outline.

Just ticks me off,

Da Guru

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by championsguru
I'm disappointed with this book. They expect that you have access to Champions, Champions Universe and CKC. You can't just pick up the book and run it.

80% of the villains listed in the adventures aren't in the book, but are in the other three.

Just ticks me off,

Da Guru

This has been voiced elsewhere, championsguru. It is a trade-off between space for adventures and space for characters. The back of the product clearly states that the other books are necessary. The complaint is akin to complaining you can't use a D&D module because it uses monsters from the Monster Manual and spells from the Player's Handbook.
If DoJ had re-published the characters in C:B, then you would have just as many fans howling that they were being forced to pay for a book that had material they had already bought. It's a no-win scenario and this is the route DoJ has taken.
BTW, the back of the book lists CU and CKC. Which characters were in Champions?

Keith "Mr. Explainy" Curtis

[Magmarock]

I have already ran my group through the first scenario in Battlegrounds and it was a success. My only regret is that I wasn't prepared to jump right into the second scenario, as our small group finished the first one rather quickly. (Yes I understand that the first two are rather short... I look forward to the finale!)

It didn't bother me that I needed the other books. I carry all my CHAMPS stuff together anyway. A few post-it notes to mark the pages and I'm good to go!.

By the way, I REALLY loved the premade speed charts! What a great idea! Very convenient!

Mags

PS. I hope more such adventures are forthcoming!

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Magmarock
By the way, I REALLY loved the premade speed charts! What a great idea! Very convenient!

sigh...YMMV. I HATE the wasted paper for those &$W* premade Speed charts. Use the paper to summarize the characters in the book so it would be semi-useful. I resent even having those in ebooks! :mad:

Obviously, however, someone likes them.

[Polaris]

Championsguru,

I think you raise a very good point, but it is a good idea to check the book to see if it says any other books are necessary.

As a word of advice, you can always make up some characters to use in the place of the characters used in the adventures. I know it is not ideal, and some might think if they are going to make up the characters, they might as well make the adventure, but it is at least a fix so you can run the adventure ideas.

Polaris

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Polaris
Championsguru,

I think you raise a very good point, but it is a good idea to check the book to see if it says any other books are necessary.

Polaris

I've only seen the book once, so I really can't say anything about it. But I have a few questions. Is there anything on the front that indicates its an adventure? Is the requirement for the other books easily visible on the back, or is it placed in a corner somewhere? I didn't look closer at it beacuse I didn't know what it was (and was spending $200 on the other books anyway). Personally, I'd rather see "module" or "adventure" on the front where it is visible in the rack (of course, differeent stores might put them on a shelf so only the spine is visible).

As for the monster manual/PHB tie in with D&D/D20 modules, there is a difference between a monster and an individual character. If the game used the bestiary for a common beast that's one thing (although not really - its pretty well understood that for any d20/D&D game, all three basic books are required for play - for Hero, only FRED is really a "required" book). An ogre is an ogre is an ogre - say ogre to a D&D player and he knows what it is, same with a troll. They are basically generic, non-individual characters that can be used in multiple settings. Most superheroes are not generic - they're individuals (is there a tribe of gronds somewhere?). Different Genre's have different rules. That said, I'm assuming the CK is the Villains Manual for the champions universe. So does that mean that I need to buy that if I want to use any published module? And if the viper book comes out, will there be villains in there that are going to be in future modules, so I'll be required to buy those as well to have stats for them without having to make them up and try to balance everything to the adventure as it was written? Whew - that's a mouthful. Does anybody get what I'm trying to say?

[AlHazred]

How to reply... how to reply....?

The information needed to place an Ogre in a D&D module is listed in the Monster Manual. The fact that it's a monster doesn't preclude the need for statistics. You can place an "Ogre" that you designed yourself into the module, but it'll be a different adventure than one the author intended, albeit mildly.

There's enough information in Champions Battlegrounds to construct your own individual villains. It'll be a different adventure, but still quite playable, since the most important part of it is plot, character interaction, and heroics.

As the eminent "Mr Explainy" explained, it's clearly listed on the back that you need Champions Universe and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks to fully use the book.

As far as being labeled as an "adventure", it's true that the front of it says "a sourcebook for Champions." However, the first line on the back (under the title "Superheroic Adventure!") is "Champions Battlegrounds is a collection of five adventures for Champions..." So, if a buyer picked it up without knowing it was an adventure, I'd assume he was like my, and just bought all Hero stuff that comes out. In which case it shouldn't be a problem...

As far as prerequisite products to use Hero stuff, I believe Steve has said on the boards (as Keith also mentioned) that they don't plan on repeating writeups (a decision I approve of). That being said, if a module title was something like Viper Battlegrounds, I'd assume that having the VIPER book was required to make full use of it. However, Hero is completely customizable; making the bad guys myself guarantees that they'll surprise all my players...

[Monolith]

It does not bother me that you need characters from other books to easily play the adventures in Champions: Battleground because, as others have stated in two different threads, most RPG adventures for other systems do this as well.

It would also not have bothered me if DOJ had reprinted that stat breakdowns for the villains in question and just left out the origins (but then I could still see people complaining that they do not know the motivations of the villains in question!).

My personal preference, however, is that adventures should use completely original villains within them. That way there is an added incentive for gamers to want to buy the adventure. The main reason I have purchased 90% of the Champions modules and source books published in the past was to see the new characters listed in the books. When you only use pre-existing characters you remove that curiosity factor from people's purchasing decisions.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by badger3k
I've only seen the book once, so I really can't say anything about it. But I have a few questions. Is there anything on the front that indicates its an adventure? Is the requirement for the other books easily visible on the back, or is it placed in a corner somewhere? I didn't look closer at it beacuse I didn't know what it was (and was spending $200 on the other books anyway). Personally, I'd rather see "module" or "adventure" on the front where it is visible in the rack (of course, differeent stores might put them on a shelf so only the spine is visible).
Front cover: A sourcebook for CHAMPIONS

Back cover (bottom): Uses characterers from Champions Universe and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks

[badger3k]

Originally posted by AlHazred
How to reply... how to reply....?

The information needed to place an Ogre in a D&D module is listed in the Monster Manual. The fact that it's a monster doesn't preclude the need for statistics. You can place an "Ogre" that you designed yourself into the module, but it'll be a different adventure than one the author intended, albeit mildly.

There's enough information in Champions Battlegrounds to construct your own individual villains. It'll be a different adventure, but still quite playable, since the most important part of it is plot, character interaction, and heroics.

As the eminent "Mr Explainy" explained, it's clearly listed on the back that you need Champions Universe and Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks to fully use the book.

As far as being labeled as an "adventure", it's true that the front of it says "a sourcebook for Champions." However, the first line on the back (under the title "Superheroic Adventure!") is "Champions Battlegrounds is a collection of five adventures for Champions..." So, if a buyer picked it up without knowing it was an adventure, I'd assume he was like my, and just bought all Hero stuff that comes out. In which case it shouldn't be a problem...

As far as prerequisite products to use Hero stuff, I believe Steve has said on the boards (as Keith also mentioned) that they don't plan on repeating writeups (a decision I approve of). That being said, if a module title was something like Viper Battlegrounds, I'd assume that having the VIPER book was required to make full use of it. However, Hero is completely customizable; making the bad guys myself guarantees that they'll surprise all my players...

I'd argue the ogre point just to do it, but appreciate the info - Actually I will reply to that - having a hard time trying to articulate my ideas. The D&D game is designed to be used with the three basic books. As long as I have those, I can use virtually any module or adventure written, mainly because I haven't seen one that hasn't at least had a stat block on the creatures (I am not a big module buyer anyway, so maybe someone else has had different experiences). Of course, a stat block on a monster is only a few lines and you get a pretty good idea of what it is/what it can do. With the hero system that is impossible, unless you use really small writing. Most monsters are also not major villains - they may be guards, random encounters, or whatever. The big guys are usually written up in the module, since they are unique and therefore not in a generic book. The game and genre needs that. In champions that would be like having no stats for the thugs or lower level npcs (the "dungeon dressing" monsters), but stating the big guys - the major villains. Without that would be like going on a quest, defeating hordes of monsters, to get to the big bad guy, then finding out I need to buy yet another book, or else just make up my own. Its easier in D&D because I don't have to balance things out (it takes a minute or two for a standard D&D monster - can anyone make a champions character in that time - complete from start to finish?). It just adds more work to prep the adventure than reading it and deciding on strategies.

Obviously, reading the back is a good idea no matter what, but I've bought stuff before that looked cool, then found out I didn't have everything that was needed.

To me, if I want to run a champions campaign, in the official universe, all I should need is FRED, probably champions as the genre book, and Champions universe as the setting/world book. I don't expect to need any more books. If I never use UNTIL or VIPER, why buy the book. I understand that it may say it on the cover. It's just that the lack of stats, for whatever reason they give, is just a poor call (IMO). The same way if I'm looking for other modules - if it says a book I don't have is required, then I'll probably pass on it. Why pay X for the adventure and Y for the other books, when I might as well make up my own adventure for nothing more than what I spent originally. But that's just my thoughts.

[Agent X]

Is there a rule that you have to like a Champions product or can't criticize its design because it gives you "fair warning" as to what it is required for play?

I believe this complaint is a complaint about the design of the book, not an accusation of deceptive advertising. I share that complaint. I don't want to have to cross-reference as I'm reading adventure modules. It is inconvenient to me. I think Monolith has a good point. I am much more likely to pick up an adventure with new villains in it. To me, it's a double bonus.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Agent X
Is there a rule that you have to like a Champions product or can't criticize its design because it gives you "fair warning" as to what it is required for play?

Of course not. No one has denied anyone the right to complain. Everyone is responding (politely) with their take on the situation.


I believe this complaint is a complaint about the design of the book, not an accusation of deceptive advertising.



When I read the first post my interpretation was that he was saying exactly the opposite. Championsguru made some very nice comments about the writing and layout. It seemed to me he felt that he had bought the book without the understanding that other books would be required.



I share that complaint. I don't want to have to cross-reference as I'm reading adventure modules. It is inconvenient to me. I think Monolith has a good point. I am much more likely to pick up an adventure with new villains in it. To me, it's a double bonus.

True point there. New villains are cool. OTOH, some folks like to find a way to use the villains they have already purchased and really like the feeling that the universe they are using is organic and alive. Myself, I have run a couple of modules, but I have always replaced the characters with ones of my own creation. I have never used anyone else's characters. I think I stand by my previous assessment that no matter what DoJ had done, they could not make everyone happy.

Here is a thought: CB was written by five different authors. Perhaps DoJ requested that the authors use the existing characters to ensure a consistent look-and-feel across the adventures.

Keith "my 2¢" Curtis

[Agent X]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
Of course not. No one has denied anyone the right to complain. Everyone is responding (politely) with their take on the situation.

When I read the first post my interpretation was that he was saying exactly the opposite. Championsguru made some very nice comments about the writing and layout. It seemed to me he felt that he had bought the book without the understanding that other books would be required.


True point there. New villains are cool. OTOH, some folks like to find a way to use the villains they have already purchased and really like the feeling that the universe they are using is organic and alive. Myself, I have run a couple of modules, but I have always replaced the characters with ones of my own creation. I have never used anyone else's characters. I think I stand by my previous assessment that no matter what DoJ had done, they could not make everyone happy.

Here is a thought: CB was written by five different authors. Perhaps DoJ requested that the authors use the existing characters to ensure a consistent look-and-feel across the adventures.

Keith "my 2¢" Curtis Perhaps they would make me happier if they had one person write a series of adventures with new characters. :) They could even write in thoughts on how to replace the new characters with "classic" characters if people are adamant about using CKC and CU villains in their adventures.

[megaplayboy]

I know this is a crazy thought, but I would've bought the produce, even paid as much as 30-40 bucks for it...

IF THEY HAD INCLUDED ACTUAL PULL OUT MAPS AND COUNTERS IN IT!

Sheesh. You're expecting a GM to draw that mall map onto a vinyl battlemat?!?
I know costy was probably the reason for doing it that way, but when the product was first described to me, I thought it would have pull out maps in it.:(

[Agent X]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
I know this is a crazy thought, but I would've bought the produce, even paid as much as 30-40 bucks for it...

IF THEY HAD INCLUDED ACTUAL PULL OUT MAPS AND COUNTERS IN IT!

Sheesh. You're expecting a GM to draw that mall map onto a vinyl battlemat?!?
I know costy was probably the reason for doing it that way, but when the product was first described to me, I thought it would have pull out maps in it.:( I thought that was what they were talking about when they sounded so excited about the adventure having maps. I don't get that excited about regular old maps on regular sized pages. I sort of think that's a given.

[Hugh Neilson]

You're not going to solve this one. If you reprint the villains, you'll have posts complaining that I bought the CKC book - why should I have to pay for 10-20 pages that reprints material I already have.

If you use brand-new villains, you'll get complaints that the CU already has lots of villains - use the ones we already have and free up that 10-20 pages for more story or less price. Geez, guys, I paid for CKC - make it worth something to me.

I think it would have been reasonable to include a brief description of the characters so the GM without the books could create similar characters of his own. Who knows? Maybe he's ensnared by the brief decisions and decides CKC is a worthwhile purchase. But I'd clip those stupid speed charts to make the space, and some posters love those.

There is no way to please everyone.

Any HERO officials following these threads? Any thoughts how future books will be written? Maybe make a "character package" available from the web store containing just the characters used in Battlegrounds, and priced lower than CKC, but more than the % of CKC reprinted?

Then we can gripe about pdf's and download problems too...

OK, guys, I bought CB. I've scanned (not read) it. I have CKC, etc. I'm HAPPY with the decision to use existing villains rather than create new ones that aren't essential. I'm happy you didn't make me pay for reprinted characters. I don't like the preprinted SPD charts, but others seem to, so its a sacrifice I can easily live with. Thanks for a great product, and I look forward to the next one! :D

[championsguru]

I love when we get into these kind of discussions.

They didn't have to put a full page for each villain in the book, maybe a group pick of the villains and each one in a small block stat. That way it would take maybe a page and a half to display a half page pick of the baddies and the stats for up to four or five on the other page.

If the GM wants to know more about the villains background, motivation, et al, he/she can go to the book of origin to get more info.

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by championsguru
I'm disappointed with this book. They expect that you have access to Champions, Champions Universe and CKC. You can't just pick up the book and run it.

80% of the villains listed in the adventures aren't in the book, but are in the other three.

If you already have Champions, Champions Universe and CKC I would recommend the book. The first adventure is very smartly written and spaced out (only one I've read so far). If the others are half as smart as the first it is well worth it. I love modules that give you play by play instead of just a loose outline.

Just ticks me off,

Da Guru


Okay, let me get this straight. You want to run Battlegrounds, a Champions adventure but you don't own the books already. So when you play Champions, what do you do? Do you use your own characters? Well use them for Battlegrounds. They give you the master villian of the program and he basically uses other villains to do his dirtywork. So if you don't have the books that they are in use your own.

Why does this tick you off?

[Steve Long]

Any HERO officials following these threads? Any thoughts how future books will be written?

Yes, of course. While we don't follow every thread, we try to read as many as we can that seem of interest to us.

Future scenario books, if any, are going to be done exactly the same way, for the following reasons:

1. We cannot afford to include pull-out maps, or counters, or anything of that sort. We agree that it would be cool, but it is not economically feasible.

2. We are not going to publish a book of villains, then (a) ignore those villains in future related products, or (b) waste space reprinting them (even in summary form). One of the primary reasons to publish a book like CKC or the FHG is to establish a common body of useful material (villains, spells, vehicles, whatever) for people -- including us -- to use. Not using them would be foolish; they're the lingua franca, so to speak, of this company's game line(s).

The point that's been made about other companies not republishing full monster stats, or spell stats, or what have you is, I think, a valid one. Obviously it's true that at a base level, you can play any HERO System game with just the 5E core rulebook. But for a whole bunch of obvious reasons -- logistical, economic, etc. -- we cannot and will not predicate our publishing strategy on the premise that "we will assume the only book any customer has is the 5E cor rules." I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that, given the quality, usefulness, and prices of our products, if you're running Champions you ought to have CKC, even though it's not absolutely necessary. If you're running FH, you ought to have FH and the FHG, and probably the HSB and MMM as well. We're not going to waste space and time reprinting that material from book to book to book. (And heck, even if we did, not only would some people complain about the wasted space, others would complain that the summaries didn't contain enough/the right information, and hence are useless. ;) )

As others have pointed out, I don't think it's at all difficult to figure out what the characters can do based on the information in CB, and substitute your own if you don't have access to them via CKC.

While I fully expect that most published scenarios will include at least one or two new villains -- like CB itself does -- I doubt we'll ever publish one that's nothing but new villains. That was the way it was done back in the day -- and the former owners got complaints about not using their existing characters. No matter what choice we make, someone's going to complain, so I'm making the choice that seems best to me for the sake of the company.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Yes, of course. While we don't follow every thread, we try to read as many as we can that seem of interest to us.

Future scenario books, if any, are going to be done exactly the same way, for the following reasons:

1. We cannot afford to include pull-out maps, or counters, or anything of that sort. We agree that it would be cool, but it is not economically feasible.

2. We are not going to publish a book of villains, then (a) ignore those villains in future related products, or (b) waste space reprinting them (even in summary form). One of the primary reasons to publish a book like CKC or the FHG is to establish a common body of useful material (villains, spells, vehicles, whatever) for people -- including us -- to use. Not using them would be foolish; they're the lingua franca, so to speak, of this company's game line(s).

The point that's been made about other companies not republishing full monster stats, or spell stats, or what have you is, I think, a valid one. Obviously it's true that at a base level, you can play any HERO System game with just the 5E core rulebook. But for a whole bunch of obvious reasons -- logistical, economic, etc. -- we cannot and will not predicate our publishing strategy on the premise that "we will assume the only book any customer has is the 5E cor rules." I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that, given the quality, usefulness, and prices of our products, if you're running Champions you ought to have CKC, even though it's not absolutely necessary. If you're running FH, you ought to have FH and the FHG, and probably the HSB and MMM as well. We're not going to waste space and time reprinting that material from book to book to book. (And heck, even if we did, not only would some people complain about the wasted space, others would complain that the summaries didn't contain enough/the right information, and hence are useless. ;) )

As others have pointed out, I don't think it's at all difficult to figure out what the characters can do based on the information in CB, and substitute your own if you don't have access to them via CKC.

While I fully expect that most published scenarios will include at least one or two new villains -- like CB itself does -- I doubt we'll ever publish one that's nothing but new villains. That was the way it was done back in the day -- and the former owners got complaints about not using their existing characters. No matter what choice we make, someone's going to complain, so I'm making the choice that seems best to me for the sake of the company. I just wonder how many people in the past didn't buy published scenarios because they didn't use existing characters. I'm pretty sure that many of the scenarios you could write with the characters in CKC I wouldn't touch. Some of those characters hold 0 interest for me. Some of those characters I prefer in their 4th Edition incarnation. Some of those characters I will have used in my campaigns in such a way as your scenarios will prove moot.

The funny thing about not publishing monster stats - In those systems the monsters are fairly uncomplicated and not unique. I don't play 3E or 3.5E but when I played AD&D if an adventure had Iuz in it, they didn't assume you had the World of Greyhawk Boxed Setting with his stats in the back. Champions lacks standard, generic monsters as far as I can tell. The villains and heroes are unique.

Oh well, I don't know why I bother to type. I've tried to bring up some points about Hero Designer in the past and basically been told to like it or lump it by Hero Staff, in a pretty condescending manner too.

This is just one of a number of approaches that bug me: the unified world and the "magic as source of everything super" for all Hero genres (don't like this), the changes to instant change and damage shield and regeneration (don't like these), a philosophy too centered on plumbing the depths of game mechanics as opposed to role playing/playability (don't like this - which produced the changes in the aformentioned rules), Hero Designer's speed and rigidity (don't like this), and the loss of many cool characters from earlier editions of Champions (don't like this but I don't think there was much of a choice on this one for DOJ).

I do like many of the improvements made in FRED. I do like the layout of the books. What seems to be lacking in the approach of this company is enough brains sharing ideas and compromising. I'm not impressed with an approach that takes a narrow view. a view limited by a small number of creators. It seems that things are just a bit too close-knit in Hero Land and I don't get the impression that the views of many individuals beyond a small group are seriously considered. Seems to be working fairly well so far but I wonder if this approach will continue to work.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Yes, of course. While we don't follow every thread, we try to read as many as we can that seem of interest to us.

I rather suspected someone would be - especially a thread on what people do or don't like about a product! You guys spend a LOT of time providing free advice on these web boards which, in my view, shows anyone who thinks Hero doesn't care about their customers is way off base. Try going to the WOTC site and asking a rules question - I've never seen a question take half a day to get an answer!

[And you'd need about 20 full time people to follow every thread...thanks for taking the time to post such a complete and well reasoned response.]


Originally posted by Steve Long
Future scenario books, if any, are going to be done exactly the same way, for the following reasons:

1. We cannot afford to include pull-out maps, or counters, or anything of that sort. We agree that it would be cool, but it is not economically feasible.

For me, I'm happy with that. Give me a good, solid usable product (and I can't think of a time Hero has failed to do so) and don't fill it up with bells and whistles. Give me a 96 page scenario book in B & W on plain paper over a 32 page book on colour glossies EVERY TIME!


Originally posted by Steve Long
2. We are not going to publish a book of villains, then (a) ignore those villains in future related products, or (b) waste space reprinting them (even in summary form). One of the primary reasons to publish a book like CKC or the FHG is to establish a common body of useful material (villains, spells, vehicles, whatever) for people -- including us -- to use. Not using them would be foolish; they're the lingua franca, so to speak, of this company's game line(s).

Thank you for that. The failure to use established Hero characters has been a key failing in prior incarnations of the game, at least in my opinion. Based on your comments below, I'm not alone in that. My experience is that characters key to the adventure tend to be brand new (maybe the reason SoB got webbook and Battlegrounds got paper treatment?), and you can replace the "bit players" from other sources.

Mind you, I buy up supplements for other games for the scenarios and build my own characters based on theirs, or insert characters I already use. My campaign includes Villains and Vigalantes, every Champions edition, Golden Heroes and who knows what else.


Originally posted by Steve Long
The point that's been made about other companies not republishing full monster stats, or spell stats, or what have you is, I think, a valid one. Obviously it's true that at a base level, you can play any HERO System game with just the 5E core rulebook. But for a whole bunch of obvious reasons -- logistical, economic, etc. -- we cannot and will not predicate our publishing strategy on the premise that "we will assume the only book any customer has is the 5E cor rules." I have no qualms whatsoever about saying that, given the quality, usefulness, and prices of our products, if you're running Champions you ought to have CKC, even though it's not absolutely necessary. If you're running FH, you ought to have FH and the FHG, and probably the HSB and MMM as well. We're not going to waste space and time reprinting that material from book to book to book. (And heck, even if we did, not only would some people complain about the wasted space, others would complain that the summaries didn't contain enough/the right information, and hence are useless. ;) )

Let's also remember that a lot of D&D material (the touted comparison) tells you you "need" or "should have" other products to get full use. eg. if you don't have the FR Setting book, how useful are FR Supplements or Scenarios?


Originally posted by Steve Long
As others have pointed out, I don't think it's at all difficult to figure out what the characters can do based on the information in CB, and substitute your own if you don't have access to them via CKC.

It's also not like they need to be identical. Critical abilities are set out by "here's what the villains will do" text. It really doesn't matter if the villain has an AP attack unless the scenario relies on it being used for something. If it does, that use and reliance will be obvious from the scenario book.


Originally posted by Steve Long
While I fully expect that most published scenarios will include at least one or two new villains -- like CB itself does -- I doubt we'll ever publish one that's nothing but new villains. That was the way it was done back in the day -- and the former owners got complaints about not using their existing characters. No matter what choice we make, someone's going to complain, so I'm making the choice that seems best to me for the sake of the company.

"If you try to make everybody happy, no one will like it."

Would I make all the same decisions Steve does? Probably not. Will there still be food on my table if Hero folds? Yes. Steve's got to make the best decisions for Hero as a whole. he can't tailor make each product for my personal preferences - unless I volunteer to pay all the Hero expenses, a decent salary for him, and a return on the investment in the company. I'm sure if someone wants to volunteer to buy the whole print run, Steve will write any book you want! ;)

The other approach, I suppose, is to use all-new characters and never publish villains books. That's also not a great solution, IMO. As I see it, Hero has taken the compromise approach. If you prefer to make your own scenarios, buy the villains books and use them in your scenarios. If you prefer to make your own characters, buy the scenario books and use your characters. If you like to do it all yourself, buy the sourcebooks and rulebooks only.

I'm amused by comments like "well, I only buy scenarios for the villains so I feel ripped off by these scenarios". Hero could say "Great - rather than publish a villains book with 100 characters, we'll publish 10 scenario books with 10 characters each and make you pay 10x as much for what you want." To me, that WOULD abuse the customers. Like the basics of the Hero system itself, the various supplements provide the building blocks, and we each choose which ones we want to use and how.

It's a lot easier to complain about the minor items than to create the whole picture. In my opinion, Hero produces, bar none, the best RPG material on the market.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
I rather suspected someone would be - especially a thread on what people do or don't like about a product! You guys spend a LOT of time providing free advice on these web boards which, in my view, shows anyone who thinks Hero doesn't care about their customers is way off base. Try going to the WOTC site and asking a rules question - I've never seen a question take half a day to get an answer!

[And you'd need about 20 full time people to follow every thread...thanks for taking the time to post such a complete and well reasoned response.]



For me, I'm happy with that. Give me a good, solid usable product (and I can't think of a time Hero has failed to do so) and don't fill it up with bells and whistles. Give me a 96 page scenario book in B & W on plain paper over a 32 page book on colour glossies EVERY TIME!



Thank you for that. The failure to use established Hero characters has been a key failing in prior incarnations of the game, at least in my opinion. Based on your comments below, I'm not alone in that. My experience is that characters key to the adventure tend to be brand new (maybe the reason SoB got webbook and Battlegrounds got paper treatment?), and you can replace the "bit players" from other sources.

Mind you, I buy up supplements for other games for the scenarios and build my own characters based on theirs, or insert characters I already use. My campaign includes Villains and Vigalantes, every Champions edition, Golden Heroes and who knows what else.



Let's also remember that a lot of D&D material (the touted comparison) tells you you "need" or "should have" other products to get full use. eg. if you don't have the FR Setting book, how useful are FR Supplements or Scenarios?



It's also not like they need to be identical. Critical abilities are set out by "here's what the villains will do" text. It really doesn't matter if the villain has an AP attack unless the scenario relies on it being used for something. If it does, that use and reliance will be obvious from the scenario book.



"If you try to make everybody happy, no one will like it."

Would I make all the same decisions Steve does? Probably not. Will there still be food on my table if Hero folds? Yes. Steve's got to make the best decisions for Hero as a whole. he can't tailor make each product for my personal preferences - unless I volunteer to pay all the Hero expenses, a decent salary for him, and a return on the investment in the company. I'm sure if someone wants to volunteer to buy the whole print run, Steve will write any book you want! ;)

The other approach, I suppose, is to use all-new characters and never publish villains books. That's also not a great solution, IMO. As I see it, Hero has taken the compromise approach. If you prefer to make your own scenarios, buy the villains books and use them in your scenarios. If you prefer to make your own characters, buy the scenario books and use your characters. If you like to do it all yourself, buy the sourcebooks and rulebooks only.

I'm amused by comments like "well, I only buy scenarios for the villains so I feel ripped off by these scenarios". Hero could say "Great - rather than publish a villains book with 100 characters, we'll publish 10 scenario books with 10 characters each and make you pay 10x as much for what you want." To me, that WOULD abuse the customers. Like the basics of the Hero system itself, the various supplements provide the building blocks, and we each choose which ones we want to use and how.

It's a lot easier to complain about the minor items than to create the whole picture. In my opinion, Hero produces, bar none, the best RPG material on the market. You are assuming that this is an either/or situation and that there is no room for compromise. That seems to be the DOJ way of looking at it too. I think there is room for compromise.

[Nato]

*

[Steve Long]

I'm sure if someone wants to volunteer to buy the whole print run, Steve will write any book you want!

Generally speaking, I'd say that's probably a true statement -- though they'd have to pay in advance, no refund, and promise not to sue if Events Beyond Our Control prevented me from writing it. ;)

It would probably be easier if they just tried to invest in the company. ;)

[Magmarock]

First of all, I'd like to say that I think Battlegrounds is written just fine. I don't see any way to improve on the format. I hope to see more such "grouped modules" in the future!

Second, I would like to point out that Battlegrounds is a wondeful source book. Every map, especially the mall and park maps from the first two adventures, can be used over and over again. Each area has a lot going on, and I loved the way each shop in the mall was fleshed out and the people with personalities and agendas that can be reused. I plan on incorporating the mall into several adventures, not just for fights, but as a place where the PCs can go to meet people, get information, etc. The current campaign we are playing is in MC, but this mall can fit any city campaign.

Mags

[Agent X]

I'm not criticizing the format as far as the meat and bones of the adventure. I'm saying I like new characters and mistook the hype about maps to mean there was a possibility of miniatures-ready maps. I'm not offended that they didn't have those sorts of maps. I just don't know why then went on and on about the maps. My complaint that I like new characters still stands - and I do think it is proper to have at least a summary of all the characters involved in an adventure in the book.

[Magmarock]

By format, I wasn't referring only to the layout... I was referring to the entire product, including content.

Maybe a free PDF download of such info (villain stat blocks and such) can be offered in addition to the hard copy of an adventure. That way, everyone is happy- people aren't forced to pay for the same material they already own, and those who want the extras can download it and print it out. Sounds like a good compromise to me.

There can be a code or something for the download, maybe, so you'd need to buy the book before you can get the stat blocks. Or something like that.

Mags

[Agent X]

I didn't know that 2-4 pages of content was so precious that we should subject everyone to having to thumb through several books to use a scenario.

These PDF solutions assume everyone who games has the ability or inclination to use computers and printers to support their gaming.

Maybe I've been around too long but I am used to having scenarios I buy have the character stats of the characters in the scenario. It's not a matter of me having to buy CKC, CU, or Champions Genre Book - I have bought all those books. It is a matter of utility. The scenario, relying on me to look up stats in another book, has just added unnecessary complexity to me actually running the game. It's interesting that so many are bringing up options for players suggesting essentially this, "You could do this or do that to get around the problem." The issue is that buying a scenario is not merely a method of inspiration but also a method of avoiding perspiration. If I am compelled to perform enough paperwork because the scenario cannot stand on its own then there is no reason to buy the thing. It's supposed to make my job as a GM easier and hopefully that includes the weight in my bag lighter.

[Enforcer84]

Although no one seems to have taken offense at my tone. It was a little edgy for me. So I apologize for being the least polite person on this thread.

I haven't purchased it but after reading everything I will be doing so tonight, THANKS pen and paper.com!

[Lord Liaden]

I must say, with all due respect, that this thread sounds like other threads that have come out every time DoJ releases a new book: some people really like parts of the book, while other people really dislike parts of it. Often the radical difference of opinion is over the same parts.

In the case of Champions Battlegrounds, we obviously have a disagreement between people who want new characters included and those who want existing characters, and between people who want the stats for the characters included in the book and those who don't. In giving us a book with scenarios designed around previously published characters, but which don't include them or require them, I'm not sure how much farther the company could have compromised without leaning more toward one side or the other in the dispute.

I'll give Hero Games credit for putting out a scenario book when past experience would indicate that scenario books aren't profitable. I'll also give them credit for trying some things differently with this book, in the hope that it will sell better than its predecessors. I guess it's now up to the marketplace to decide whether they got it right or not; that's as close to an objective determination as we're likely to get.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Generally speaking, I'd say that's probably a true statement -- though they'd have to pay in advance, no refund, and promise not to sue if Events Beyond Our Control prevented me from writing it. ;)

It would probably be easier if they just tried to invest in the company. ;)

That's another option - if you don't like what Hero is doing, buy the present owners out and run it your way!

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Agent X
Maybe I've been around too long but I am used to having scenarios I buy have the character stats of the characters in the scenario. It's not a matter of me having to buy CKC, CU, or Champions Genre Book - I have bought all those books. It is a matter of utility. The scenario, relying on me to look up stats in another book, has just added unnecessary complexity to me actually running the game. It's interesting that so many are bringing up options for players suggesting essentially this, "You could do this or do that to get around the problem." The issue is that buying a scenario is not merely a method of inspiration but also a method of avoiding perspiration. If I am compelled to perform enough paperwork because the scenario cannot stand on its own then there is no reason to buy the thing. It's supposed to make my job as a GM easier and hopefully that includes the weight in my bag lighter.

I always have separate (looseleaf) character w/u's anyway, first because I tinker with them and second because I hate having to flip through the book looking for them. Especially if there are two on opposite pages involved in the same fight. That means the weight issue means nothing to me.

That's one reason my views may differ from others' views on this matter. I would not mind a "stat summary" in the book to provide some basics of the characters presented, but I know I would end up fleshing the characters out anyway. Hero's not a system for cardboard cut-out opponents, so they need some fleshing out.

[JmOz]

LL,

Well said, but I think you also miss one other point:

While some people would be happier with X (let us say the pages of CKC and CU needed for the adventure being reprinted) they would be satisfied to have Y (A two sentence description of the character).

Agent X feels that certain things could be better, and overall I agree with his feelings on all the points above. I do SUSPECT that his comment about how an employee of Hero Games treated him has to do with how a certain person who DOES NOT work for Hero, but who many think does tends to treat negative feedback on his pet project, but I won't go there...

[lemming]

Just picked up the book. Per usual, looks very well done. Nice maps, could do without the combat record sheets. I'd prefer a summary that presents the same info that could fit on one page.
Perhaps I'll have more feedback after a full reading.


Spoiler
Though the master villian needs a bit of work. "Not the Face!" comes to mind... For only a 5 pnt disad, I think I'd just reduce the defenses as opposed to "none of his defenses apply to hit location 4"
Probably drop the damage reduction and 1/2 his def. After all, he still has a steel skull.

[Polaris]

Agent X,

I would agree that sometimes people have an overly "group think" view of crticism (or the "d20 is worse" defense... which, is not really a reason to not improve Hero, just because d20 is not better).
People in General,
I think Steve's post answering the criticism was very respectful and presented his reasoning for the decisions made. I don't expect anyone will agree with all the decisions he makes, but I do appreciate when he does explain so that we can know that he does listen, just doesn't always agree.

I am with those that would pay quite a bit extra for a poster map. I would have bought TE for 10 dollars more if it had a poster map of the galaxy... and been glad to do it. I may be representative of a lot of customers, I may be one of a small handful. DOJ made their decision that it wasn't worth it to them to do it for the extra money (they clearly felt it would not make enough 'extra' money to pay for the map inserts). I share others' disappointment in that decision, but I look at the choice from the point of view of a customer/gamer, not from a business perspective (which is how Steve and Darren have to look at the choices).

I don't know if this could even be considered, but would it be viable to offer poster maps in the online store (as a stand alone... not having to pay for it being an insert)?? Just a thought...:)

Polaris

[Magmarock]

Great idea, Polaris!

If DoJ can offer add ons for Hero Designer, why not PDF add ons for modules? Even though I don't play Star hero, I can see where a star chart would come in handy. (Not sure if you guys run ship to ship fights ala Star Fleet Battles or Babylon 5, but it would be neat, I think)

I also like the idea of just photocopying the villans needed for a partucular adventure and slipping them in the module where needed. Come to think of it... they already have available the Hero Designer add ons with the villains in PDF format. Very easy to print out whichever villain you need and use it that way.

Maybe that will help?

Mags

[megaplayboy]

my suggestion on the maps is to create PDFs on site that contain the maps in page by page form(i.e., A1 through A4, A through C, print out and connect as directed to make a full map). Less than perfect, but better than a tiny map in a book that would take an hour to redraw on a battlemat.;)

[Stray Cat]

I'm not sure how well the Heroclix map sets are selling, but I do know that I've considered purchasing them. The square tiling instead of hex is not a problem for me. But if Hero came out with hex maps in that format... I wonder what the response would be...

Cat

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Polaris
Agent X,

I would agree that sometimes people have an overly "group think" view of crticism (or the "d20 is worse" defense... which, is not really a reason to not improve Hero, just because d20 is not better).
People in General,
I think Steve's post answering the criticism was very respectful and presented his reasoning for the decisions made. I don't expect anyone will agree with all the decisions he makes, but I do appreciate when he does explain so that we can know that he does listen, just doesn't always agree.

I am with those that would pay quite a bit extra for a poster map. I would have bought TE for 10 dollars more if it had a poster map of the galaxy... and been glad to do it. I may be representative of a lot of customers, I may be one of a small handful. DOJ made their decision that it wasn't worth it to them to do it for the extra money (they clearly felt it would not make enough 'extra' money to pay for the map inserts). I share others' disappointment in that decision, but I look at the choice from the point of view of a customer/gamer, not from a business perspective (which is how Steve and Darren have to look at the choices).

I don't know if this could even be considered, but would it be viable to offer poster maps in the online store (as a stand alone... not having to pay for it being an insert)?? Just a thought...:)

Polaris

I already gave my opinions so I wont repeat them on the basic subject. As for the maps on pdfs, villain write ups, et al: I'm not sure how everything is stored at DOJ, but making the pdfs for distribution might also be both time- and money-consuming (a possibility), so offering them for free might not be an economically viable option either. Whether it would be worth it for a little money is a possibility, but I can't comment to much on that either. It might be an option if its low cost and keeps good will up, but I'd agree that some way of coding it would be needed (say, a particular word from somewhere in the book, so they would need the book to uncode the downloads), otherwise they would be essentially giving their work away for free (why by CK if you can get the villains piecemeal).

Oh well - one thing I can comment on is what I've done in the past. It is time consuming (and paper/ink too) - I'll scan the maps I need and blow them up as necesssary. Not the most elegant solution, but it can work. Just an idea for the interim.

[AlHazred]

I came up with Polaris' very idea while catching up on this thread. I think if DOJ offered to sell poster-sized maps (in color) in .pdf format in the on-line store (I'm talking single-digit dollars, here), I'd buy them. Now, I buy all the Hero stuff anyway, but I know several people who have often said you can't get good modern terrain, and a "shopping mall" map or a "city park" map would definitely sell to more than just the people like me. It wouldn't be too hard for most of us to go to Kinko's and pay for a nice poster print-out.

All told, I like the direction taken with Champions Battlegrounds, and I was one of the people who said that the plot seeds were good enough. Should be expect to see a Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds and Star Hero Battlegrounds as well?

[Starcorp Man]

Champions Battleground is the first Champions product ever that I put back and did not buy, for a lot of the reasons already mentioned, and it's what also spured me to have my Local Store remove Hero from my "must have," list that's been there for almost 20 years.

[Watchdog]

The players is my campaign frequent this board on occasion, so I don't want to say too much about the content of Battlegrounds. But I will mention a couple of things, so SPOILER ALERT, and all that.

I liked the maps, and yes, I did put the entire mall on a battlemap - well, the first floor anyway. Then I spread about half a big bag of M&Ms to represent the shoppers and other innocent bystanders. It worked well.

I do a fair amount of tinkering with any published adventure to make it fit my campaign, so I don't have a big problem with using characters in previous books. I did that in the second scenario, adding CLOWN - oops! 5th ed. no-no! :) - into the mix (their plan was to steal the fake diamond and replace it with a real one)

I guess I'm in the minority on the speed charts. I like them, but perhaps they could be redesigned to put in a few other key stats (like CON and STUN)), and the primary attack powers for each character. Perhaps with a bare-bones version like this, you could run the battles even without one of the sourcebooks.

I didn't see any wasted space in the product - no, check that. In the description of the park:

"The shrubs themselves...have the Disadvantage, Vulnerability: 2X BODY from fire-based attacks."

What?! And after all those times the PCs in my campaign have frustrated Firewing by taking cover in the shrubs!
:rolleyes: :D

[MrWolf]

I didn't buy it... I'm getting kind of picky about which supplements I buy, actually, since I used to buy almost everything Champs related, and have most of the previously-published stuff.


I will say that if maps were made available in PDF format, that could be easily printed out... I'd buy 'em.

[Polaris]

Starcorp,

I hope you are still following this thread.

I was a bit surprised by your post. You mentioned that after looking at CB, you took Hero off your list at the FLGS. That reaction seemed a bit strong for not liking one book... May I ask if this was something building up, or was there something about CB that offended you THAT much? Being a loyal customer for 20 years like you have been, DOJ would probably like to know what it was about a single book that so turned you off (I would like to know too out of curiosity).

Polaris

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Polaris
Starcorp,

I hope you are still following this thread.

I was a bit surprised by your post. You mentioned that after looking at CB, you took Hero off your list at the FLGS. That reaction seemed a bit strong for not liking one book... May I ask if this was something building up, or was there something about CB that offended you THAT much? Being a loyal customer for 20 years like you have been, DOJ would probably like to know what it was about a single book that so turned you off (I would like to know too out of curiosity).

Polaris

Building up, my disappointment in the hero line has been growing. Change doesn't bother me, unneeded change does, and that is what I feel is going on with the hero line and with the increase in price of the books with getting less out of each book I just can't bring myself to stay product loyal, to keep buying something I get little out of (coming from the guy who was going to pay sight unseen for 5E when they were trying to do the certificate thing to afford the print run.). The last adventure, with very few extras disappointed me. I really liked with previous version of champs that adventures added new villians, heroes, etc to the set, gave me more to use.

For example the Cardboard Characters - Champions
SKU: DOJHEROCC01 This PDF contains miniatures for 12 Champions Universe characters. 6 bucks for a 1 sheet of mini's, and the thread that used to exist where it was said that basically unless these sell, there are no more.. Seems strong armish in perception, whether it is or not is fine, it's perception and the line is starting to feel that way.

[tiger]

Well I can agree on the prices of games now and disagree at the same time.

DOJ's games are running 25-32 bucks a game, while other companies are staying around 25. However, DOJs page counts are much higher for your money.

When you factor in that the price of just about everything is gonna up they really are quite fair. It's just in the day and time you have to be picky on what you purchase.

I haven't picked up CBG and doubt that I will for sometime. Between the cashflow and the fact that were gearing up a FH campaign it's just not up there on the Priority list. However, Viper will be a pick up regardless. They've been my favorite villain group since forever and doubt that will change.

So there are books on the schedule that I know going in I won't be picking up, not a knock on the quality just usefulness to me as the GM. There are others I will be getting and I haven't seen the final product or the PT's PDF yet. I just know based on the discription that it's something I need. That coupled with the continuing, IMHO, rising quality of DOJs books, I will be getting them.

I will say I would purchased the maps as a PDF from CBG. If for know other reason than maps are always a good thing to have.

[tesuji]

Just an FYI...

GURPS produces deck plans (6 so far) and floor plans (2-3 so far) which feature play-size maps of locations with 1m hexes on one side and 5' squares on the other.

Floor plans include a haunted mansion and grounds, a mall, and a silo-underground base.

Deck plans include a variety of starship designs from traveller... including iirc merchant and military varieties.

I have found them useful and even used them when running HERo champions games.

Also, the hero clix maps are IMo worth the bucks. I have them and they work just fine. They are squares not hexes, if that bothers you.

Jope this can help some people loking for maps find some they like and can use.