Superman-like invulnerability in 6th ed.

[Wanderer]

What would you prefer to combine:

40/30+ ED/PD Resistant Defenses, Hardened, plus -6/-6 Damage Negation,

OR

40/30+ ED/PD Resistant Defenses, Hardened, plus 50/50 Resistant Damage Reduction,

to get the typical "I get shot in my eyeball and I'm unfazed, puny human" effect, and why ?

[Matt Holck]

on the low like bullets end, damage negation
surviving a nuclear explosion, damage reduction

[The Main Man]

What about Impenetrable?

Superman's Invulnerability seems like it would be simulated by a trifecta of Defenses, Damage Negation, and Damage Reduction.

[Hyper-Man]

When and if I get around to updating my starting versions of the Justice League to 6e I will probably just trade out Superman (http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The%20Man%20of%20Steel.html)'s Force Field slot in his Multipower for Damage Negation.

Final result should be at least 30/20r with 45 active DN via Multipower.

[pinecone]

Yeah, totally ignoring small arms fire sounds like Damage negation, toss in some Damage Reduction and a fairly small amount of Resistant defence makes you pretty much unstoppable.

[Steve]

Damage Negation is pretty much the definition of invulnerable IMHO. Taking enough to be able to ignore the first six to eight DCs pretty much takes guns out of the picture as a threat, and then layering on top of that resistant defenses and Damage Reduction? Yeah, that's Superman-like invulnerability.

[Hyper-Man]

Damage Negation is pretty much the definition of invulnerable IMHO. Taking enough to be able to ignore the first six to eight DCs pretty much takes guns out of the picture as a threat, and then layering on top of that resistant defenses and Damage Reduction? Yeah, that's Superman-like invulnerability.


I wouldn't start with Damage Negation though.
Superman has been surprised by relatively average attacks and then later in the same combat shrugged off staggering blows from the 'big-boss' type.

[SSgt Baloo]

Lately, I've considered using lots of resistant defences and some amount of regeneration that works quickly, but not Hollywood Werewolf™ quickly. In Superman™ Batman™ Public enemies Superman gets shot with a fragment of kryptonite. Batman remarks that "we'd better get that out before it heals over" (Or something similar).

[Wanderer]

So the loose consensus seems to be that in order to make Superman-like invulnerability all three powers (DN, DR, RD) ought to be combined somehow, possibly with some Regeneration ? I would not give the priority to DR, however. While the character may be sometimes surprised by average superhuman attacks, and sometimes shrugged off powerful superhuman attacks, he is always totally unfazed by mundane attacks. Maybe the DR has Limitations such as "Requires a Roll" and "Must Be Aware of Attack".
E.g.

30/30 RD, -8/-8 DN, 25%/25% DR*, 1-2 BODY/turn

30/30, Hardened RD, -6/-6 DN, 25%/25% DR*, 1-2 BODY/Turn

Alternatively, 50%/50% DR, -1/2 Requires a 13- Roll (ideally a CON ROll, but I really can't stand AP penalties being applied to rolls), -1/4 Must Be Aware of Attack (which with Supies' senses, happens most of the time, but there are SFXs that can bypass his attention, such as Magic, and even superhumanly acute senses may fail a roll).

[megaplayboy]

Well, I consider getting shot in the eyeball by a handgun of respectable caliber to be the equivalent of "maxing out the damage". For a .357 round, (1.5d6, +1 STN mult, 6 E rules), this would equate to 9 Body, 36 Stun, or in Damage Negation terms, 6 damage classes. Give Supes 6 levels DN and he ignores it completely. Give him 36 PD/9 resistant, with 12m of knockback resistance, and he ignores it completely. Damage reduction would come into play when dealing with larger attacks, imo. For a .50 caliber "SLAP" round, 3d6 KA, +1 STN, AP, you're looking at 18 BODY, 72 STUN, armor piercing, or in DN terms, about 13 damage classes. Giving Supes 70+ PD would certainly enable him to ignore attacks like that, but one might want the option for superpowers of similar power to affect him where bullets won't, in which case 40 PD(resistant), plus 12 levels of DN vs. mundane real weaponry, might be more appropriate. You could then throw on 75% DR, to give him something like this: 12 levels DN vs. mundane real weaponry, 40 resistant DEF, and 75% resistant Damage Reduction. Now hit him with a round from a tank gun(8d6 KA, +1 STN, 30 damage classes)--the DN reduces the attack to 18 damage classes(about 5d6-1 KA with +1 Stun). On an average roll, the attack will do 16 body and 48 stun. Subtract Supes' 40 defense, and there's 8 stun getting through, which the damage reduction then reduces to 2 stun. Even a maxed out hit(29 body and 116 stun) will do only 19 Stun after all defenses are applied. Not too shabby--of course, that's 180 active points of defenses per type, or 360 total active points of defenses. I'd expect someone with that much defense to be nigh-invulnerable.

[SSgt Baloo]

I'm curious how one would do this (or something similar) if one's character were limited to a maximum of, say, 250-350 points?

[megaplayboy]

I'm curious how one would do this (or something similar) if one's character were limited to a maximum of, say, 250-350 points?

I'd suggest, first, to restrict the DN effect to physical weapons only--you could get 6 DC of negation at a -1/2 limitation for 20 points, and then buy your defenses at, say, 35/25, with 10/10 resistant. You'd have to toss the damage reduction, in all likelihood, though. But any real world physical damage weapons up to about 4d6 KA(light cannon) would be pretty much useless, and even heavier guns wouldn't do the overwhelming damage they'd do to others. The aforementioned tank gun, applied to 6 DN/35 PD, 10 resistant, would be reduced to 6d+1, +1 STN, and on average would apply 22 body and 66 stun against those defenses, getting 12 body and 31 stun through--that's a big ouch, but a lot of characters would be deeply unconscious or dead in a 250-350 point game if hit with that. You could reduce the PD a bit and increase the resistant defense, and they'd only be stunned for a while!

[pinecone]

I'm curious how one would do this (or something similar) if one's character were limited to a maximum of, say, 250-350 points?

Well you'd have to accept taking Some damage...so DN -6 ("Normal tech") around 30? DR 1/2 PDr/EDr 60 pts take 15 to 20 Resistant defences and you shrug most anything that comes at ya...of course you have dropped around 150 pts on defence....just Buy 20 resistant and DR 1/2 and you'll have the Man of steel feel just fine....

so 60 for DR, 34 for the Def +1/2 for resistant? hmmmm...around a hundred or so...? And of course the same costs for Dam Neg -6 of each kind instead of the DR...

[Wanderer]

On second thoughts, it came to my notice that there is an alternative way of statting this kind of invulnerability, namely limited Desolidifcation:

Invulnerable to Normal Weapons: Desolidification (affected by all attacks other than mundane real weapons), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (70 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Mundane Real Weapons (-1)

It has the substantial drawback that the character can't use his body to to shield other characters from mundanetech attacks, but otherwise it works fine, assuming the GM isn't a jerk that ignores the optional waiver and calls for the nasty technicality of using Affects Physical World on every other power, of course. Even in the latter case, however, the power could still be used effectively by adding a Trigger:

Invulnerable to Normal Weapons: Desolidification (affected by all attacks other than mundane real weapons), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (110 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Mundane Real Weapons (-1)

The character would only have to deactivate the defense when he wants to attack.

[dmjalund]

combine the above with an automatic Missile Deflection (a failed roll indicated the bullet ricochet onto the target)

[Hyper-Man]

I'm curious how one would do this (or something similar) if one's character were limited to a maximum of, say, 250-350 points?

This is the most current version of how I have done it on 400 points using 6e rules: Superman (http://www.herocentral.net/herocentral/get/files/premium/Superman.HTML)

This is not movie level, but rather starting animated series. The key is that IF he's prepared for an attack he can have up to 45PD/40rPD + 6d6DN. The drawback is that he's not doing much else at the same time ('only' has a spider-man level 45 STR, no flying, etc..)

[Christopher]

I'm curious how one would do this (or something similar) if one's character were limited to a maximum of, say, 250-350 points?
What are the DC's I am up against?

And please defiend Invulnerabilty with terms like "just like walking in the rain", "stings a little" or "might K.O. me but not hurt me"

[Matt the Bruins]

I do think most any version of Superman should have all his defenses as fully Resistant. I've seen him stunned and even knocked out occasionally by various attacks, but he has survived high-yield nuke detonations at point blank range without sustaining any real injury on multiple occasions.

[Hyper-Man]

I do think most any version of Superman should have all his defenses as fully Resistant. I've seen him stunned and even knocked out occasionally by various attacks, but he has survived high-yield nuke detonations at point blank range without sustaining any real injury on multiple occasions.

So show us how you would build it. :D

[phoenix240]

Comic characters are just flat out difficult to write up for me. Their portrayals are so varied and largely plot driven. Like horror movie monsters they do what they need to do to drive the story within a certain range of possibilities (their stated power set). Like Invincible, a similar character to Superman that I was trying to write up. He's listed as having strength enough to lift around 30 tons, but is how to move things that are much heavier with ease. He's survived explosions and blasts that must have been nuclear levels with little difficulty but what amounts to robot zombies beat can beat him bloody. I imagine writing up Superman might have similar issues. I think the JL and JLU animated series versions were pretty consistent but, of course, they didn't have decades of past issues and different writers to deal with.

[dmjalund]

IMO, you have to choose a single writer - probably one who likes to be self consistant, and do HIS/HER version of the character

[Matt the Bruins]

So show us how you would build it. :D

I think I might tend toward something like a basic rPD/rED of 5 or so, Resistant Protection (Hardened) of 35-40 each that doesn't work against Kryptonite or direct applications of magic, and a really formidable Defensive Absorption like Holocaust's geared toward energy attacks that likewise aren't magic or Kryptonite radiation.

[Christopher]

I do think most any version of Superman should have all his defenses as fully Resistant. I've seen him stunned and even knocked out occasionally by various attacks, but he has survived high-yield nuke detonations at point blank range without sustaining any real injury on multiple occasions.
Actually:
As powerfull as nuclear explosiosn are in the area, as weak are they when you are close by. The first bomb they used (or was this was about the H-Bomb?) was placed on a big wooden tower. After the big fireball you would asume what was closest to the ball would have been varporaized. It was not. It was in pieces, but in big pieces.
In fact you can place a steel plate right next to it and it survives (after a long, fast flight). Granted radiation, pressure, themperature and force would still kill a normal human but superman needs suprsingly few to survive a point blank nuclear blast.


Comic characters are just flat out difficult to write up for me. Their portrayals are so varied and largely plot driven. Like horror movie monsters they do what they need to do to drive the story within a certain range of possibilities (their stated power set).
The main problem is that in comics the Writer controls the problems and the protagonist.
In RPG's the Writer(GM) has no controll over the protagonists (Players). The rules are a mediator between the two: It gives the GM a overview of the characters abilities and it's limits, the same way it gives the player an overview about what his character can do.