TK Throws

[Dr Divago]

Hi everyone
that's the problem: i whanna build a power that can actually "throw away" targets (people, but also crate, robots, pile of woods and rocks, or all my Hero System tomes together...)

ok, nice. pretty easy (i said):
i need to build a standard EB, then adding Double Knockback (and also Does Knockback if KB is not standard in my campaign)
then a limitation "does not damage, just knockback" (-2).
cool. easy. done.
BUT
(there's always a "but" or i did'nt post here >_> )
if this power does not damage. how can i calculate knockback?
kb is calculated by using BODY rolled for damage. but if there's not damage...

so i tought about building it with TK with the limitation "only to grab and throw away the target".
BUT (again)
1) will go against first hero rule for power building: if there are different way to build a single power, simpler one has to be used
2) it'll be a lot less simple to use: activate the power (if RSR), to-hit-roll, then TK STR vs STR for grab, then throw calculation, then actually to-hit-roll for throw...

i think the EB + double KB + "no damage, only kb (-2)" is ok... but... it's really ok?
what do you think about it?

[Derek Hiemforth]

I wouldn't make "No Damage" a -2, because it's still having a useful effect. I'd make it -1 or MAYBE -1 1/2. As far as KB, you could always roll the dice and count the BODY just for purposes of calculating the KB.

I'm not sure why you're describing the TK approach as so many steps though. To be honest, that sounds more straightforward to me if all you want to do with this power is move things...

[SSgt Baloo]

I'd do it as an area effect (or explosion) TK that only (and always) moves things away from the center. I might add "personal immunity just to save some confusion.

[ghost-angel]

1) will go against first hero rule for power building: if there are different way to build a single power, simpler one has to be used

That's not a rule.

The "meta rule" is that if there are two equally valid (which is amazingly open to interpretation) ways the more expensive must be used.

Just use the Energy Blast, add the dice like you're doing Body Damage and use that for the KB, but don't apply the damage.

Alternately to either EB and TK is Flight: Usable As Attack.

[Dr Divago]

I wouldn't make "No Damage" a -2, because it's still having a useful effect. I'd make it -1 or MAYBE -1 1/2. As far as KB, you could always roll the dice and count the BODY just for purposes of calculating the KB.mmmhhh ok
so i guess something similar to this one is good for it?

Biotic Throw: 4d6 EB; double knockback (+¾)
No Damage, Only to KB (-1½), RSR (-½), Reduced Range (up to 25”/d6 of effect; -¼)
Active Cost: 35
Real Cost: 11
i stated 4d6 because at double knockback is standard effect 8 BODY (already doubled) and so average 1" KB, more if you roll lower with the 2d6 KB dice.
i'd like keeping cost close to 10 real points, for basic powers, to balancing with other powers
more powerful throw of course will do more kb


I'm not sure why you're describing the TK approach as so many steps though. To be honest, that sounds more straightforward to me if all you want to do with this power is move things...i found treating it like a standard "attack" (to-hit-roll, effect roll) simpler than a "grab" (to hit roll, str vs str roll, throw roll...)
btw power work like a direct EB attack: it throw a bolt of dark energy that virtually "blow away" first target in the path. so EB only to do knockback is a better choice, for me :)

TY for your answers, btw :)

[Dr Divago]

Alternately to either EB and TK is Flight: Usable As Attack.O.O coooooool
this is a good idea for another power: Lift (it lift a target helplessly in the air)
ofc linked to an entangle or something...
...
...
maybe a TK is fine too >_>

[dmjalund]

That's not a rule.

The "meta rule" is that if there are two equally valid (which is amazingly open to interpretation) ways the more expensive must be used.
I always thought that meta-rule is bogus. If I could find a way to make something that simulates energy blast (with drains or whatever) that costs more than EB, that would mean that every EB must be bought my way instead

An example from another thread - CSLs cost more than OCV or DCV. According to the meta-rule we should never buy ob OCV or DCV, but must buy them up as limited Combat Skill Levels

[Escafarc]

I always thought that meta-rule is bogus. If I could find a way to make something that simulates energy blast (with drains or whatever) that costs more than EB, that would mean that every EB must be bought my way instead

I've always thought the same thing. We use which ever method fits the character concept the best regardless of cost.

I will now duck behind my trusty wall http://www.penandpapergames.com/forums/images/smilies/animated/peep.gif

[Derek Hiemforth]

I always thought that meta-rule is bogus. If I could find a way to make something that simulates energy blast (with drains or whatever) that costs more than EB, that would mean that every EB must be bought my way instead

An example from another thread - CSLs cost more than OCV or DCV. According to the meta-rule we should never buy ob OCV or DCV, but must buy them up as limited Combat Skill LevelsAs with almost everyone who thinks the meta-rule is bogus (IMO), you promptly completely forget about the whole "equally valid" piece of the equation. If you have to "find a way" to jury-rig some Blast-esque construct that's more expensive than Blast, then it certainly isn't an "equally valid" approach to Blast.

Some other words to try in place of "valid" that might the meta-rule clearer: simple, straightforward, elegant, and, well... clear. ;)

[dmjalund]

can we have an example of any two write-ups that are equally valid?

[Checkmate]

You wouldn't by chance be creating Mass Effect Hero would you?

[ghost-angel]

can we have an example of any two write-ups that are equally valid?

The trick here is that it's objectively impossible to do. Two constructs will only be equally valid with the context of a Campaign to compare them against.

The only possible thought I currently have on the idea is this thread:
Blast - Knockback Only
Telekenesis - to throw
Flight: Usable As Attack

All three are fairly equally valid ideas of how to move a target against its will. But even then, a specific campaign may invalidate one or more of them as unfit for the campaign. For example Flight:UAA is by GM Permission Only. A GM may not allow "Knockback Only" as a valid Limitation in another game. Telekinesis is by far the most expensive of the three going by Cost Per Meter Moved, however a build "only to throw" may be more trouble than it's worth.

[dmjalund]

The trick here is that it's objectively impossible to do. Two constructs will only be equally valid with the context of a Campaign to compare them against.

The only possible thought I currently have on the idea is this thread:
Blast - Knockback Only
Telekenesis - to throw
Flight: Usable As Attack

All three are fairly equally valid ideas of how to move a target against its will. But even then, a specific campaign may invalidate one or more of them as unfit for the campaign. For example Flight:UAA is by GM Permission Only. A GM may not allow "Knockback Only" as a valid Limitation in another game. Telekinesis is by far the most expensive of the three going by Cost Per Meter Moved, however a build "only to throw" may be more trouble than it's worth.so not only is the rule bogus, but it never gets applied

[Matt Holck]

in the campaign I'm currently in,
limitations and advantages are capped at -1 and +1 respectively
so TK

[ghost-angel]

so not only is the rule bogus, but it never gets applied

more or less, yeah. I certainly ignore it when considering things.

[Dr Divago]

You wouldn't by chance be creating Mass Effect Hero would you?Yeah, this is what i'm looking for
it's more a "star hero settings based on ME settings" than a straight conversion;
for instance i use END cost for power instead of lockout+activation time, and "thermic clip" instead of burnout roll for weapons

if you're interested i got some material to share... but it's almost entirely in italian xD

[Querysphinx]

As with almost everyone who thinks the meta-rule is bogus (IMO), you promptly completely forget about the whole "equally valid" piece of the equation. If you have to "find a way" to jury-rig some Blast-esque construct that's more expensive than Blast, then it certainly isn't an "equally valid" approach to Blast.

Some other words to try in place of "valid" that might the meta-rule clearer: simple, straightforward, elegant, and, well... clear. ;)

I think it's bogus because it tries to lay down an absolute rule to cover a subjective judgment. Hero is not D&D. The players and GM absolutely cannot sit back and hope the system will balance itself. Sometimes the most expensive "equally valid" option is simply a lot more expensive than the power is worth in terms of game play. This is where the player and the GM must hammer out a solution which will probably violate the meta rule.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think it's bogus because it tries to lay down an absolute rule to cover a subjective judgment. Hero is not D&D. The players and GM absolutely cannot sit back and hope the system will balance itself. Sometimes the most expensive "equally valid" option is simply a lot more expensive than the power is worth in terms of game play. This is where the player and the GM must hammer out a solution which will probably violate the meta rule.To which I would reply, "If it's more expensive than the power is worth in game play, then that's not the most valid build." ;)

I think maybe the confusion arises because of the exact wording of the meta-rule. I would personally phrase it as:

"Try to build an effect the most straightforward or clearest way possible. Generally speaking, try to avoid using a Power to mimic effects that a different Power is specifically designed to provide. Also consider whether the final build is costed appropriately in comparison to its utility in the game. After considering these various factors, if you still seem to have multiple approaches to a build and aren't sure which one to choose, you can most safely avoid potential abuse by choosing the most expensive approach."

[GoldenAge]

Back to throwing things...

Take into consideration the fact of direction. Do you want to throw stuff left, right, upward, downward and backwards as well as forward? If so, EB would require an Indirect Advantage. Limited TK really seems like the best choice.

Can you use Flight; Usable on Others through transparent barriers? TK, again, alleviates that problem (if it is a problem, I really don't know) within the power description.

[SSgt Baloo]

so not only is the rule bogus, but it never gets applied

Pretty much. Surprising what happens when common sense overrules fanaticism. ;)

I don't suppose Change Environment would be a valid power to simulate this effect...?

[Hyper-Man]

This old thread about Flight with Passengers (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1265644#post1265644) might be worth looking at for some ideas.

[bigbywolfe]

If going the TK route, you wouldn't actually need to do the whole "grab, have a STR contest, then Throw" thing would you? I mean, we have a Shove manuever, and one would assume you can simply push someone without the manuever as well, so you would simply be able to push or "Shove" with TK as well...wouldn't you? In fact, "Only to Shove" would be a pretty big Limitation on TK, not allowing Lifting, Grabbing, or Striking...

[dsatow]

The standing print rule which supercedes all meta-rules is: What the GM allows. If the GM allows a design, no matter if you personally wouldn't allow it, the GM has last say. You could argue the point, but generally as common courtesy, is only allowed after the game.

[Hyper-Man]

If going the TK route, you wouldn't actually need to do the whole "grab, have a STR contest, then Throw" thing would you? I mean, we have a Shove manuever, and one would assume you can simply push someone without the manuever as well, so you would simply be able to push or "Shove" with TK as well...wouldn't you? In fact, "Only to Shove" would be a pretty big Limitation on TK, not allowing Lifting, Grabbing, or Striking...

Like this?

34 Telekinesis (40 STR) (60 Active Points); Instant (This Limitation converts a Constant Power into an Instant Power. It only remains in effect for, at most, the Phase in which it is turned on.; -1/2), Affects Whole Object (If a character’s Telekinesis affects all parts of the target, then he buys it with this Limitation. The character cannot use this type of Telekinesis to squeeze or punch a target, but can use it to Grab.; -1/4) - END=6

[Dr Divago]

ty all for the answers :)

btw, this is what i did:

Throw: 4d6 EB; double knockback (+¾)
No Damage, Only to KB (-1½), Reduced Range (up to 25”/d6 of effect; -¼), Need to Biotic Sense the Target (-¼), RSR (-½)
Active cost: 35
Real cost: 10

[GoldenAge]

With this power you can only "throw" things directly away. What about left, right or up?

[Dr Divago]

well, throwing directly away is good enough for me :)

[Hyper-Man]

ty all for the answers :)

btw, this is what i did:

Throw: 4d6 EB; double knockback (+¾)
No Damage, Only to KB (-1½), Reduced Range (up to 25”/d6 of effect; -¼), Need to Biotic Sense the Target (-¼), RSR (-½)
Active cost: 35
Real cost: 10

Do you realize that this will only do an average of 1" of Knockback to most targets?

[Dr Divago]

Do you realize that this will only do an average of 1" of Knockback to most targets?yeah i know; but this is only basic throw
more advanced throw get more EB "damage" to increase knockback
(powerful throw is 6d6, master throw is 8d6)

i want "basic" powers costs around ten points (real), and be strong enough to have some effects BUT still not so much.
so if a player want only basic power can use it but are very limited; he can do something and the points are not a waste, but to get something really useful they need to spend more
ie, a 1" kb is good enough to move crate and rocks, and to make targets go away from cover. it's not really useful to damage and kill/stun enemies, nor to let'em fly for three rooms, but it could be very useful if more points are spent (ie mastering the power)

[dmjalund]

for increased effect, you could just buy less with double Knockback

[bigbywolfe]

for increased effect, you could just buy less with double Knockback
His build already has Double Knockback. Are you saying he should be allowed to apply that Advantage multiple time?

[IndianaJoe3]

His build already has Double Knockback. Are you saying he should be allowed to apply that Advantage multiple time?

6e allows Double Knockback to be bought multiple times as a GM's option.

[dmjalund]

His build already has Double Knockback. Are you saying he should be allowed to apply that Advantage multiple time? I missed it

[Dr Divago]

6e allows Double Knockback to be bought multiple times as a GM's option.
i got 5ed
btw, it's nice idea

[StGrimblefig]

This is all well and good, but what about a pull ability?

[bigbywolfe]

TK only to pull rather than only to push. Seems kind of obvious. Though if you wanted to stick with EB/Blast I suppose you could add Indirect and a limitation to only hit the side facing away from you (pushing them towards you.)

[Dr Divago]

This is all well and good, but what about a pull ability?i'd guess a TK to grab...
or a special effect

ie: to create an effect that "grab telekynetically a foe, lift up in the air, than smash to the ground" is just an EB with special effect that lift and smash on the ground... :)

[dmjalund]

This is all well and good, but what about a pull ability?High levels of Charm plus the Appropriate Striking Appearance ;)

[prestidigitator]

My opinion on this one is that Knockback is both optional and a secondary side effect of damaging powers. Therefore you should be using the Power that is actually intended to move things as its primary effect (since that is what your power is intended to do). That Power would be Telekinesis.