+1 DC to all attacks?

[Tweedle]

How much do you think it should cost to purchase an ability that adds +1 DC to all of a character's attacks? If possible, could you illustrate how you arrived at the figure you suggest? Many thanks. :)

[Bartman]

16 pts

Two 8pt all combat skill levels can add 1DC to any attack.

[Tweedle]

That's correct, but those two CSLs can also be used to add up to +2 to a character's OCV or DCV, or +1 to both simultaneously. I'm interested in the cost of an ability that is limited to adding +1 DC to any of a character's attacks.

[Bartman]

Good point. At a 8pt level you can add limitations to them though. There are three things you can do with CSLs. Add OCV, add DCV, and add DCs. Since we are eliminating two of the three I would say that counts as a -1 limit. So two 8pt levels with a -1 lim (only to add DCs) gives us 16 AP, 8 RP. How's that?

[C_Zeree]

5 Points: +5 STR?

[nHammer]

Originally posted by Bartman
Good point. At a 8pt level you can add limitations to them though. There are three things you can do with CSLs. Add OCV, add DCV, and add DCs. Since we are eliminating two of the three I would say that counts as a -1 limit. So two 8pt levels with a -1 lim (only to add DCs) gives us 16 AP, 8 RP. How's that?

Looks good.


5 Points: +5 STR?

He asking for ALL attacks. +5 to Str doesn't help if he wants to use a EB.

[C_Zeree]

Ah, yes of course!
Sorry brain needs a rest.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Bartman
Good point. At a 8pt level you can add limitations to them though. There are three things you can do with CSLs. Add OCV, add DCV, and add DCs. Since we are eliminating two of the three I would say that counts as a -1 limit. So two 8pt levels with a -1 lim (only to add DCs) gives us 16 AP, 8 RP. How's that?

Technically, it can add to OECV and DECV as well.

However, I would say that 8 pts is too cheap. A DC bought to 0 end with a single specific attack is 7.5 pts. I have to think that a DC that could add to any attack would cost more than .5 pts.

I would give it a -1/2 limitation and make it 16 AP and 11 RP.

[Tweedle]

Originally posted by Bartman
Good point. At a 8pt level you can add limitations to them though. There are three things you can do with CSLs. Add OCV, add DCV, and add DCs. Since we are eliminating two of the three I would say that counts as a -1 limit. So two 8pt levels with a -1 lim (only to add DCs) gives us 16 AP, 8 RP. How's that?

That seems fair. Thanks Bartman. :)

[Tweedle]

Originally posted by Gary
Technically, it can add to OECV and DECV as well.

Yes, but I would hesitate to allow this, as to me it seems rather generous for the cost involved.

[Ndreare]

Well this is one of those situations were a costom power would be created in my games. There is no way I would allow +1 DC to all attacks just by paying 8 points but 16 is obviosly to expensive so I would go with the negitive 1/2 and look at the 11 point cost. Then say flat out that the cost is 10. however I would not allow the characters to use this on AOE attacks. (I would consider it like a little limated multipower).

Then warn the player that this will only be allowedd for one or two games after which I will review the construct and eliminate it or modify it as the situation seems appropriate.


(Sorry for the bad spelling I did not have time to spell check with word.)

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Bartman
Good point. At a 8pt level you can add limitations to them though. There are three things you can do with CSLs. Add OCV, add DCV, and add DCs. Since we are eliminating two of the three I would say that counts as a -1 limit. So two 8pt levels with a -1 lim (only to add DCs) gives us 16 AP, 8 RP. How's that?

Actually, the lowest level that you can add limitations to is the 5 point level.

[Hugh Neilson]

How powerful this is depends on how many attacks the character has, which is likely why there are no specific rules. If all he has is STR and STR powered attacks, 5 points adds to STR for all purposes, and even STR w/o figured char. is more powerful than the desired effect.

The "2 8 pt combat levels" approach makes sense in a Heroic game, where levels can add to damage and are restricted to the "double base damage" structure. Note that if the character already doubles base damage (1d6 KA, 5 STR min and 20 STR, say), the levels will only reduce the STR he must use, not add a DC.

In a Supers campaign, I'd look at a handwaved rules breach and consider a multipower with one slot to add 1 DC for each attack power the character possesses. Or make him just add a DC to his attacks.

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
How powerful this is depends on how many attacks the character has, which is likely why there are no specific rules.

In a Supers campaign, I'd look at a handwaved rules breach and consider a multipower with one slot to add 1 DC for each attack power the character possesses. Or make him just add a DC to his attacks.

This is probly the bst way to do it. Just make the character buy the power for what it is. I like this more than my own custum power system.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by badger3k
Actually, the lowest level that you can add limitations to is the 5 point level.

Yes I know this. But how does this invalidate my comment that you can add limitations to 8pt CSLs? 5pt CSLs can't add to both ranged and HtH attacks. So you need 8pt levels to add DCs to any and all atttacks

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Tweedle
Yes, but I would hesitate to allow this, as to me it seems rather generous for the cost involved.

Well CSLs are a good buy. A disadvantaged one is likely to be even better.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Bartman
Yes I know this. But how does this invalidate my comment that you can add limitations to 8pt CSLs? 5pt CSLs can't add to both ranged and HtH attacks. So you need 8pt levels to add DCs to any and all atttacks

Sorry - didn't mean to imply that it couldn't. I was thinking of it being limited to one attack/weapon. Looking back to the first post I see that I misread it, so your correct with your construction.

[BNakagawa]

Q: When you say a power that adds 1DC to all of a character's attacks, do you mean, all simultaneously?

Given that there is such a thing as multi-power attack, perhaps the pair of limited combat levels doesn't quite work...

[pinecone]

Hmmm...in that case maybe a AID:attack powers (+2) self only might be the bank busting choice.....

[eepjr24]

2d6 Aid, Standard Effect, Up to 4 attack powers (+1), Fade at 5p/Minute (+1/4)

AP: 45

Not too bad, really. It is 25 points to get one attack up. Would be 65 AP for all attacks at once.

- E

[prestidigitator]

I don't think that 8 points is too much at all. Consider Martial Arts. Provided your Martial Arts applies to all of your attacks (unarmed, 1 point per "weapon style", and you have it), you can add 1 DC to all non-killing attacks for 4 points, and half of that to all killing attacks (read: 8 points per additional DC for killing attacks). There's nothing in there about the Martial Arts DCs applying to one attack at a time. The limited Skill Level is quite balanced. Or just use the Martial Arts.

Remember: Str, Skill Levels, and Martial Arts can never increase any attack to more than double base damage anyway.

[Gary]

Originally posted by prestidigitator
I don't think that 8 points is too much at all. Consider Martial Arts. Provided your Martial Arts applies to all of your attacks (unarmed, 1 point per "weapon style", and you have it), you can add 1 DC to all non-killing attacks for 4 points, and half of that to all killing attacks (read: 8 points per additional DC for killing attacks). There's nothing in there about the Martial Arts DCs applying to one attack at a time. The limited Skill Level is quite balanced. Or just use the Martial Arts.

Remember: Str, Skill Levels, and Martial Arts can never increase any attack to more than double base damage anyway.

Yeah, but MA DC's add only to martial attacks and have no range. The 2 8 pt skill levels can add to all HTH not just to MA, and can add to range attacks, mental attacks, drains, flashes, entangles, transforms, dispels, etc. It's a major upgrade to the MA levels if you have a versatile attacker. And remember, a +1d6 0 end EB costs 7.5 pts. Having the ability to add to virtually any attack represents a major upgrade and thus should add more than 1/2 pt to the cost of the DC.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Gary
Yeah, but MA DC's add only to martial attacks and have no range. The 2 8 pt skill levels can add to all HTH not just to MA, and can add to range attacks, mental attacks, drains, flashes, entangles, transforms, dispels, etc. It's a major upgrade to the MA levels if you have a versatile attacker. And remember, a +1d6 0 end EB costs 7.5 pts. Having the ability to add to virtually any attack represents a major upgrade and thus should add more than 1/2 pt to the cost of the DC.
I believe the extra DCs from Martial Arts add to all of your Martial Arts maneuvers. Who says I can't define a Martial Arts style that uses ranged weapons? Shuriken jump to mind. I think it would be completely valid to create an archer who used Martial Arts with his bow: the strikes all make sense; he might be able to block with his buckler, or his bow if opponents get too close; he could sweep legs with his bow (Legsweep), or fire arrows beneath running feet (Martial Throw: 0 Str+maneuver bonus anyone?); he could pin an opponent's clothes to a wall (Martial Grab: 0 Str+maneuver bonus). Likewise, why not allow a Martial Arts form for psionic characters, that applies to OECV, DECV and perhaps Ego rather than Str? Perhaps a mental "grab" could be performed by any mentalist who has an offensive power, and the grabbed character could not make any mental attacks until (s)he escaped. A mental "throw" might leave the defender at half ECV until (s)he took a moment to mentally "stand up". Eh. This is just brainstorming. And maybe these forms should be bought seperately, rather than just adding on different Weapon Styles.

Anyway, the Martial Arts add to all attacks at the same time. They also add double what the Combat Skill Levels would to normal attacks. The Combat Skill Levels add to only one attack at a time, even though they have a somewhat broader use. By the way, I would have to say adding to non-damaging or mental attacks is probably very up to the GM. I would probably have a bit of difficulty with someone using their normal Combat Skill Levels to add to their Mind Control effect roll, even if they are overall levels. Maybe overall (regular) Skill Levels could do that (since they apply to all skills including mental ones, etc., as well as just combat), but they cost 10 points anyway. Combat Skill Levels bought specifically for, e.g., mental combat would probably be an altogether different matter.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by prestidigitator
I believe the extra DCs from Martial Arts add to all of your Martial Arts maneuvers. Who says I can't define a Martial Arts style that uses ranged weapons? Shuriken jump to mind. I think it would be completely valid to create an archer who used Martial Arts with his bow: the strikes all make sense; he might be able to block with his buckler, or his bow if opponents get too close; he could sweep legs with his bow (Legsweep), or fire arrows beneath running feet (Martial Throw: 0 Str+maneuver bonus anyone?); he could pin an opponent's clothes to a wall (Martial Grab: 0 Str+maneuver bonus). Likewise, why not allow a Martial Arts form for psionic characters, that applies to OECV, DECV and perhaps Ego rather than Str? Perhaps a mental "grab" could be performed by any mentalist who has an offensive power, and the grabbed character could not make any mental attacks until (s)he escaped. A mental "throw" might leave the defender at half ECV until (s)he took a moment to mentally "stand up". Eh. This is just brainstorming. And maybe these forms should be bought seperately, rather than just adding on different Weapon Styles.

Anyway, the Martial Arts add to all attacks at the same time. They also add double what the Combat Skill Levels would to normal attacks. The Combat Skill Levels add to only one attack at a time, even though they have a somewhat broader use. By the way, I would have to say adding to non-damaging or mental attacks is probably very up to the GM. I would probably have a bit of difficulty with someone using their normal Combat Skill Levels to add to their Mind Control effect roll, even if they are overall levels. Maybe overall (regular) Skill Levels could do that (since they apply to all skills including mental ones, etc., as well as just combat), but they cost 10 points anyway. Combat Skill Levels bought specifically for, e.g., mental combat would probably be an altogether different matter.

I like that idea for "mental martial arts" - instead of damage put mental effects - even a mental grab could result in some physcial restraint, but it would have to be balanced so that it can't replace powers at low levels (ie grab is similar but different to entangle). Lots of possibilities. Great idea.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by badger3k
I like that idea for "mental martial arts" - instead of damage put mental effects - even a mental grab could result in some physcial restraint, but it would have to be balanced so that it can't replace powers at low levels (ie grab is similar but different to entangle). Lots of possibilities. Great idea.

Thank you. I would just hesitate to have that kind of thing be detrimental to a target in physical combat. A mentalist already has enough advantages against someone not geared to psionics. Giving an advantage like making targets more vulnerable just to mental attacks probably wouldn't tip things too harshly; if a target isn't set up to defend against mental attacks, making them a little easier for my 12 ECV mentalist to hit them won't be that huge a deal, and it still allows them to walk up and clock me. :)