CHAMPIONS VILLAINS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

Heya folx! It's time for another WDYWTS thread. This time out: the Champions Villains trilogy!

As many of you already know, I'm currently working on a three-book review of the villains of the Champions Universe:

Volume 1: Master Villains
Volume 2: Villain Teams
Volume 3: Solo Villains

These are currently planned as hardcover, full-color books.

My current outline for the three books (which I'm writing all together, as if they were a single book, to maintain consistency) has nearly 330 character sheets (mostly villains, of course, but some are minions, vehicles, and whatnot). Of those, a little over 300 are characters that have appeared in print before, but over 20 are new. Of those 20, about half are entirely new creations of mine, the other half appear in Champions Online but have never before appeared in print.

The 300-some pre-existing characters consist of nearly the entire run of villains from the following books: CKC, VVV, EU, AA, TMW, and CU/CU:NotW, plus selections from other Champions books. I've left out a couple from the major books for various reasons, but only a couple. All these baddies are receiving a 6E upgrade, a polish, some nice color art, and a sack lunch in case they get hungry later.

So, given all that information -- what would you like to see in this book that isn't already being covered? I can tell you right now that I don't have the time or space to add more all-new villains, so let's not be asking for that. ;) But I'm always interested in ideas you may have for making the books more generally useful for the reader, more fun to use, and so on. :hex:

[casualplayer]

Under the Bio section of villains I would like to see a field of Known Associates, listing some GM-friendly suggestions on who has worked worked together in the past. Little, informal teams-of-the-moment things and such. Who knew Black Star and Lady Blue dated briefly and operated as Black and Blue, before Slick did what Slick does and it all fell apart? Known Antagonists could be fun too, so you could exploit the old comic trope of "enemy of my enemy is my friend."

I would be tempted to replace the "team" book with this field of suggested pairings rather than hardcoded lineups. Your work probably needs to match up to the Champions Online and CU lineups though. But just like you nabbed and shifted some members of Terror Inc as new members of Eurostar, a brilliant move IMO, others might benefit from some suggestions and also some idea of what pairings might be explosive. Hey, I once put Foxbat, Wyvern, Leech and Bull(dozer) on the same team and great fun was had.

[Escafarc]

How about a Advance Villian Handbook section (expanding on whats in the Champions book) with ideas on buliding and running different types of villians.

[mudpyr8]

Have the Villain designations consistent with the Champions sourcebook p 162:

Gangsters & Hoodlums
Henchmen
Independent/Freelance
Lieutenants
Master Villains.

I really like those designations and having the Villains book match would be very useful. I also like the archetypes on 167 - it might be a useful way of summarizing the character quickly (e.g. Villain is a Prankster and a Mercenary). Where possible, if a character were to have a complication as described in the sourcebook.

When you talk about teams/agencies, defining them in terms of HIstory/Goals, STructure/Org, Methodology/Resources would be helpful.

Some kind of challenge suggestion (e.g. appropriate to face an entire team, or a single character, etc.).

[torchwolf]

The listing of the sources the villains will be pulled from sounds great; I expect to be very happy with these upgraded, polished, nicely illustrated and provided with individualized lunch boxes! :thumbup:

I second the idea of Known/Past Associates under the Bio section (or even listed separately in a sidebar). Also, naturally incompatible allies could be useful to note (it always bugged me no end when they paired Dr Doom with Red Skull in the MU).


Some other thoughts:

I loved the Master Reference chart of villains, I expect such to be present for these books too.

Also, whether a certain villain would be worth more points as Hunter or Watcher might be useful noting (i.e., in cases where it would differ drastically). At some point during 4th edition (not sure if this was 4th Ed CotN or Corporations) this was listed for corporations, which I found very useful info even if it can be deduced from text descriptions.

The concept of the "Public Knowledge" boxes in the Algernon Files books, while not perfect, is useful for those occasions where PC knowledge on villains has to be decided upon quickly. Perhaps a useful fact or two could be assigned a skill modifier for use of KS: Superhuman World, KS: Supervillains, etc.? Again, this can of course be decided upon from descriptions and writeups, so it's just a thought.

Any of these things could just be noted in sidebars where appropriate, to save some space.

[Checkmate]

The concept of the "Public Knowledge" boxes in the Algernon Files books, while not perfect, is useful for those occasions where PC knowledge on villains has to be decided upon quickly. Perhaps a useful fact or two could be assigned a skill modifier for use of KS: Superhuman World, KS: Supervillains, etc.?

I second this idea. I absolutely loved this in the Algernon Files.

[Hermit]

Well, I'm pretty sure you're keeping this, but just to be sure, I really love the 'plot seed' suggestions on the side in most 5th Edition books. It was a quick easy way to get a head start on a storyline one could develop. I'll also second 'what the public knows' idea. While some complications are tailor made for that, it still helps to give the players a rough idea what their characters have heard (Which admittedly may not always line up with the facts).

I suppose the 'Women of Evil' swimsuit calender is out?
kidding.. ;)

[Steve]

Have the Villain designations consistent with the Champions sourcebook p 162:

Gangsters & Hoodlums
Henchmen
Independent/Freelance
Lieutenants
Master Villains

I'd like to second this suggestion. It would help organize the ranks of villainy.

[Steve]

I second this idea. I absolutely loved this in the Algernon Files.

Another suggestion I'd like to support.

[JmOz]

I can't think of one, so if you already have one planned I am sorry. I want a Antagonist who acts within the law, probably of the evil business man variety. I am thinking of some of the ways Lex Luther has been used over the years. Just someone who really hates costumed heroes and has dedicated his fortunes to ending them legally. For a nice bit make it so he is doing what he believes is right and that an argument can be made for it

[Lord Liaden]

Well, I'm pretty sure you're keeping this, but just to be sure, I really love the 'plot seed' suggestions on the side in most 5th Edition books. It was a quick easy way to get a head start on a storyline one could develop.

Absolutely agree with this. Plot seeds make the books especially useful to GMs new to the game and/or setting. I also enjoyed the little "what they think about each other" text boxes from CKC, describing impressions of certain villains by other villains and heroes "in their own words."

Could we please add the membership of PSI that appeared in Millennium City to the batch from CKC? MC had several key PSI villains, and it would be nice to have them all in one place.

I would like to see a reprint of some of the "organizational villains" from books that are unlikely to be redone for 6E in the foreseeable future. For example, 5E Champions Universe gave us a write-up of a basic VIPER agent. If that gets updated here (which I would hope), it would be nice if it was accompanied by members of VIPER's Dragon Branch. They include several Champions classics.

I already guessed that the non-American villains from Champions Worldwide and Champions Of The North would be beyond the scope of this project -- ah, well. But in the tradition of Evil Unleashed, I hope you'll include the villains written for Ultimate books that came out after EU was published.


I suppose the 'Women of Evil' swimsuit calender is out?
kidding.. ;)

That would probably blow the art budget right there. :rolleyes:

[Steve Long]

I can't think of one, so if you already have one planned I am sorry. I want a Antagonist who acts within the law, probably of the evil business man variety.

Already have one planned. ;) It is, of course, Franklin Stone, who's been mentioned in a sort of Luthor-ish role in a number of CU products. He'll appear in the Master Villains book.

[Lord Liaden]

I can't think of one, so if you already have one planned I am sorry. I want a Antagonist who acts within the law, probably of the evil business man variety. I am thinking of some of the ways Lex Luther has been used over the years. Just someone who really hates costumed heroes and has dedicated his fortunes to ending them legally. For a nice bit make it so he is doing what he believes is right and that an argument can be made for it

5E Champions Universe gave us abbreviated stats and background for Franklin Stone, founder, primary owner, president, and CEO of Advanced Concepts Industries (ACI), who clearly is the CU's version of Lex Luthor. He functions much as you describe, although he both resents superhumans (particularly heroes who interfere with his schemes), and willingly makes use of them as hirelings or patsies.

I remember Steve Long posting that Stone's CU entry was as much as he felt the character needed to be dealt with, so I'm guessing he won't be written up here, but probably has been reprinted in 6E CU.

EDIT:

Already have one planned. ;) It is, of course, Franklin Stone, who's been mentioned in a sort of Luthor-ish role in a number of CU products. He'll appear in the Master Villains book.


And that's what I get for taking too long to post. :o

It does surprise me that Stone is getting a full write-up here, though. Makes me wonder what other non-costumed CU baddies might make an appearance. :think:

[Steve Long]

Could we please add the membership of PSI that appeared in Millennium City to the batch from CKC? MC had several key PSI villains, and it would be nice to have them all in one place.

If the membership of PSI were still the same, you sure could. Given that the organization fractured in 2005, leaving a number of members dead and others MIA or antagonistic, what you'll see in CV2 is the organization as it exists as of 2010.

[Steve Long]

I already guessed that the non-American villains from Champions Worldwide and Champions Of The North would be beyond the scope of this project -- ah, well.

Some are, some aren't. Baron Nihil, Borealis, Necrull, and a couple others from COTN made the cut, as did Taipan, Li Chun, and a few others from CWW. You're overlooking the "selections from other books" part of my initial announcement. ;)

One way to look at it: does a Canadian or international villain factor into CO, or into other storylines or whatnot that we've hinted at or developed? If so, he's probably in CV. If not, he probably ain't. ;)

[Steve Long]

For example, 5E Champions Universe gave us a write-up of a basic VIPER agent. If that gets updated here (which I would hope), it would be nice if it was accompanied by members of VIPER's Dragon Branch. They include several Champions classics.

There are basic agents for VIPER and DEMON in CU, actually; they won't appear in CV. Since I assume that at some point we'll update VIPER for 6E, I'm not including any members of Dragon Branch in CV.

[Lord Liaden]

If the membership of PSI were still the same, you sure could. Given that the organization fractured in 2005, leaving a number of members dead and others MIA or antagonistic, what you'll see in CV2 is the organization as it exists as of 2010.

Interesting. Since the PSI villain profiles for Champions Online made no mention of the group's breakup, I just assumed that event wasn't carried forward into the post-MMO continuity.

Rather a pity IMHO. A whole organization of villainous mentalists was one of the scarier factions in the CU.


Some are, some aren't. Baron Nihil, Borealis, Necrull, and a couple others from COTN made the cut, as did Taipan, Li Chun, and a few others from CWW. You're overlooking the "selections from other books" part of my initial announcement. ;)

One way to look at it: does a Canadian or international villain factor into CO, or into other storylines or whatnot that we've hinted at or developed? If so, he's probably in CV. If not, he probably ain't. ;)

Not overlooking that part of your announcement; it just didn't occur to me that you'd harvest only a few villains from those books. :ugly:

[Steve Long]

Quick comments about other suggestions:

1. I could see adding a "line item" to the descriptions called something like "Classification" that would cover the villain's "level" per Champions p. 162, or including a line for this in the Campaign Use section. I'm less sanguine about including the "archetype" designations from pp. 167-69 because that information is already covered by other parts of the description.

I can't list how much anyone's worth as a Hunter because that depends on a relative evaluation of power levels. However, I may be able to say in the Introduction something like, "Compared to a typical starting Superhero, a Lieutenant-level villain is typically an "As Powerful" Hunted." I'm reluctant to do even that, though, because it's a very individualized sort of evaluation.

2. I can also see adding something along the lines of a "Known Associates And Adversaries" section to the description -- or at least to some descriptions, since for many villains there may not be much of anything to say here, and I'm not going to force it. This could also include the "what so-and-so thinks about so-and-so" bits that I came up with to fill CKC whitespace. But I can guarantee you I'm not going overboard trying to think up stuff along these lines. ;)

3. I will consider adding a "what people know" sidebar for each character, though that's a good bit of extra work.

4. OTOH, the "Plot Seeds" sidebars are going away. They suffer from a number of problems, including (a) they tend to become repetitive, since there are relatively few ways to make a single villain the focus of a plot involving an entire superhero team, and (b) they're a royal pain in the ass to write. If I add a "what people know" sidebar, that would take up the requisite sidebar space anyway... and to some extent that and an "Associates and Antagonists" section might cover much the same ground as "Plot Seeds."

5. Similarly, the "how this guy functions as a Hunter" sentence/paragraph in the Campaign Use section may go away on many sheets. All too often it's not really adding anything the average reader doesn't pretty much already know. If I have something actually useful to say on this subject, I certainly will, but otherwise I'd rather save a little space, perhaps to include some of the other things people have suggested.

6. There won't be any "master chart" of villains as I currently envision things. When polled on them some years ago, a sufficiently large majority of fans responded "don't use them/don't care about them" that I'm not willing to put myself or the layout guy through the agonizing work of preparing them. OTOH, this might be a fun project for a fan to undertake that we could then turn into a Free Stuff item. ;)

7. No Women Of Evil calendar, sorry. The budget's not big enough to handle the modeling fees.

[Steve Long]

Since the PSI villain profiles for Champions Online made no mention of the group's breakup, I just assumed that event wasn't carried forward into the post-MMO continuity.

The MMO clearly has former members of PSI working together again in a way that implies the breakup either never occurred, or occurred and has since been mended over to some degree. I chose the latter approach in CU; if Cryptic wants me to do otherwise they can tell me so as part of the review process.

Believe me, we've got plenty of PSI; there's nothing to worry about on that score. It's just not the exact same lineup you saw in CKC/MC; it simply can't be unless we eliminate the "fracturing of PSI" story element altogether.

[GestaltBennie]

If you rework the origins of the bad guys, Steve, I'd like to see some greater ties to the established places of the Champions Universe. There's a lot of kooky corners in the world now, which weren't explored when you did CKC. Going back to those and tying a few established characters into those places, where appropriate, would be a nice added value for the book.

[Steve Long]

That's certainly worth considering, Scott! I should also point out that CV will feature later-developed characters like Leviathan that already have ties to odd places, so to some extent we've already filled in that gap. But some additional filling may be feasible. ;)

[Lord Liaden]

I understand if this would constitute bean-spilling at this point, but I was wondering if any of the classic Champions villains that hadn't yet made it into 5E books will show up in the CV volumes. For example, I've sometimes seen hints in published books and website postings that Archimago could possibly make a comeback. :bounce:

[Steve Long]

I'm willing to spill that many beans, at least. ;) No, none of the 20-some new villains in CV are "old" villains being written up again, returned from the dead, or what have you. The new villains, be they from the MMO or not, are entirely new.*

As for Archimago specifically, you can see what I have to say about him and his current influence on the CU in Champions Universe itself. Gone, but definitely not forgotten....





*: This assumes, of course, that a given consumer owns every CU-related 5E book. If you don't have Stronghold, for example, than the "re-appearance" of Deathstroke (or more accurately, Requiem, Frost, and a dream! ;) ) in CV will strike you as "new."

[Watchdog]

I think there were some interesting villains in Shadows of the City and Underworld Enemies that have been lost in the shuffle since Dark Champions became pretty much supers-free with the 5th edition. Specifically the Nocturnals and Reverend M's organization in the former, and the Saietta crime family in the latter.

Reverend M wouldn't necessarily have to keep his street orgins, but a superpowered evangelist with the power to "heal" (and give powers to) his flock could be a great villain, especially if given some political aspirations as well.

The Nocturnals and/or Saiettas could need some heavy reworking, as one cannibalistic supervillain group might be enough. Come to think of it, they could even be combined: the Saiettas are the human-looking offspring, while the Nocturnals are the "Defective" children.

As far as solo villains go, I'd love to see the Weasel from Hi-Tech Enemies again. He's one of the few NPC villains that still really inspires a feeling of dread in my players.

Thanks for the opportunity to weigh in!

Edited to add: I'm not sure if that counts as asking for "new" villains as per your op. If it does, I apologize.

As far as making the book more useful, I do enjoy the suggestions to make villains more or less powerful. Conversion ideas from Champions to Dark Champions in 5th ed. hwere often less effective, as often it was all or nothing: "Take away the Dark Mage's Wand of Despair and give him a shotgun."

[Steve]

As far as villain groups go, since I keep running into them in the MMORPG, I'd like to see more write-ups on the gangs of Millenium City.

[torchwolf]

1. I could see adding a "line item" to the descriptions called something like "Classification" that would cover the villain's "level" per Champions p. 162, or including a line for this in the Campaign Use section. I'm less sanguine about including the "archetype" designations from pp. 167-69 because that information is already covered by other parts of the description.

2. I can also see adding something along the lines of a "Known Associates And Adversaries" section to the description -- or at least to some descriptions, since for many villains there may not be much of anything to say here, and I'm not going to force it. This could also include the "what so-and-so thinks about so-and-so" bits that I came up with to fill CKC whitespace. But I can guarantee you I'm not going overboard trying to think up stuff along these lines. ;)

3. I will consider adding a "what people know" sidebar for each character, though that's a good bit of extra work.
It sounds like much of this info could feasibly be combined in such sidebars, where appropriate, especially the "Classification" label (also, if such Classification info is actually available, which might not be the case with brand new villains).



I can't list how much anyone's worth as a Hunter because that depends on a relative evaluation of power levels. However, I may be able to say in the Introduction something like, "Compared to a typical starting Superhero, a Lieutenant-level villain is typically an "As Powerful" Hunted." I'm reluctant to do even that, though, because it's a very individualized sort of evaluation.
Seeing the point of different definitions of such distinctions in different campaigns, perhaps even noting this isn't really useful at all except for bringing up a discussion of what it actually means. Absolute power level classifications are related to the dodo.



5. Similarly, the "how this guy functions as a Hunter" sentence/paragraph in the Campaign Use section may go away on many sheets. All too often it's not really adding anything the average reader doesn't pretty much already know. If I have something actually useful to say on this subject, I certainly will, but otherwise I'd rather save a little space, perhaps to include some of the other things people have suggested.
Where/if appropriate, maybe something like:
"In campaigns where information-gathering and PR are important factors, [villain] can be considered one step more powerful when defined as a Hunted that is only Watching a character."
The aforementioned Franklin Stone might be considered a step up in power level as a Watcher compared to power as a Hunter, relatively speaking. Where appropriate, it might be useful to have a notation of an increased capacity for information-gathering compared to straight power level - villains with extensive media or intelligence connections, etc.
Grond as a Watcher would obviously be worth no points, while for Dr Destroyer or any other master villain with similar resources any such distinction wouldn't really matter.



4. OTOH, the "Plot Seeds" sidebars are going away. They suffer from a number of problems, including (a) they tend to become repetitive, since there are relatively few ways to make a single villain the focus of a plot involving an entire superhero team, and (b) they're a royal pain in the ass to write. If I add a "what people know" sidebar, that would take up the requisite sidebar space anyway... and to some extent that and an "Associates and Antagonists" section might cover much the same ground as "Plot Seeds."

6. There won't be any "master chart" of villains as I currently envision things. When polled on them some years ago, a sufficiently large majority of fans responded "don't use them/don't care about them" that I'm not willing to put myself or the layout guy through the agonizing work of preparing them. OTOH, this might be a fun project for a fan to undertake that we could then turn into a Free Stuff item. ;)
Hmm. I do seem to remember a Free Stuff download of additional plot seeds...



7. No Women Of Evil calendar, sorry. The budget's not big enough to handle the modeling fees.
Another fun fan project? No wait... :hush:

[Haerandir]

Quick comments about other suggestions:

4. OTOH, the "Plot Seeds" sidebars are going away. They suffer from a number of problems, including (a) they tend to become repetitive, since there are relatively few ways to make a single villain the focus of a plot involving an entire superhero team, and (b) they're a royal pain in the ass to write. If I add a "what people know" sidebar, that would take up the requisite sidebar space anyway... and to some extent that and an "Associates and Antagonists" section might cover much the same ground as "Plot Seeds."


Good points. I know I for one am sick of looking at the Plot Seeds and seeing yet another, "Villain falls in love with PC X" blurb... But I would miss the feature for the ones that actually ARE good/inspring. And some villains really do lend themselves to oddball scenarios (Captain Chronos, Nebula, Black Harlequin, and so forth).

Perhaps an essay at the end with a list of 'generic plot seeds' (your DNPC has been kidnapped! Villain X is in love with PC Y, but only in their Secret ID! "With this generic MacGuffin I could, dare I say it, Rule The World!" Etc.), and then for those occasions when an author really DOES have an original idea for a given character, that could be a white-space-filler?

[Nuclear Fridge]

Granted, I've lost count of the Plot Seeds that hinge on 'X falls deathly ill due to his/her/its powers going haywire. Your heroes have to find Super Secret Cure 999-Z to save them', for example. Everybody from Ma'at to Cateran to Duke Steel...
Maybe just a short section at the end, with such 'generic' seeds and a few bullet-pointed names attached to each header?

[Greywind]

Write ups of any and all characters referenced throughout the history of the game.

[The Main Man]

I remember asking about the Elder Worm in the HSB thread, so I thought that I would mention that here...


I like the idea of reading about relations between supervillains.


I'm wondering if there could be a sidebar of quick info for each villain that states basic information for a GM as they glide through the book.
For example the sidebar on Grond's page could say:

Name: Grond
Alternate Identities: Sidney Potter
Threat Level: Beta
Archetype(s): Brick
Known Abilities: Superhuman strength, toughness, and stamina; Four arms; Horns.
Status: Wanted
Known Whereabouts: Millennium City, MI


That's a basic text block idea, but if done I'm sure that there's room for improvement.

[Steve Long]

Watchdog -- believe me, no one loves the villains in Underworld Enemies more than me! But I have a strict policy: no one gets to do new versions of Chris Avellone villains but Chris Avellone... and sadly the guy's become this big-time success in computer games and doesn't have time to write RPG supplements anymore. ;) Perhaps someday! I'd love to get him to do a whole Fell's Point sourcebook, really.

[Steve Long]

I'm wondering if there could be a sidebar of quick info for each villain that states basic information for a GM as they glide through the book.
For example the sidebar on Grond's page could say:

Real Name: Sidney Potter
Threat Level: Beta
Archetype(s): Brick
Known Abilities: Superhuman strength, toughness, and stamina; Four arms; Horns.
Status: Wanted
Known Whereabouts: Millennium City, MI


I don't dislike this idea at all, but my main concerns are (a) more work for me, and (b) Fred will kill me if he has to format more stuff in boxes in a book already full of character sheets. ;) So we'll put this one on the "Maybe" pile. :hex:

[Greywind]

One issue with that though, would be the necessity of grading each character's threat level, which would lead to the need of creating said grading system.

[The Main Man]

I don't dislike this idea at all, but my main concerns are (a) more work for me, and (b) Fred will kill me if he has to format more stuff in boxes in a book already full of character sheets. ;) So we'll put this one on the "Maybe" pile. :hex:

Hey cool enough to get a "maybe."

Come to think of it:
Occupation (if any) would be interesting for PC's who might run into villains while in their civvies
Height (for size purposes)
and Weight (good for throwing purposes)
Would also be interesting fluff info on each villain.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I can't list how much anyone's worth as a Hunter because that depends on a relative evaluation of power levels.What about possibly just listing whether or not the villain (as written, and assuming they're being used in the Champions Universe) would qualify for "Extensive Non-Combat Influence?" It's often clear one way or the other, but also often not...

This would probably be beyond the scope of what you'd be willing to take on, but I'd personally love to see very brief (literally no more than a sentence or two) spins on each character's background that could have resulted in the character becoming a Hero or an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain instead (or a True Villain if the character is already an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain). For example, Foxbat's writeup could have a line that says something like, "Hero Option: Freddy's obsession with comic books manifested with him imagining himself in the role of a good guy instead of a bad guy. True Villain Option: After losing his trust fund money and facing genuine hard times, Freddy's outlook grew a bit grimmer, and his crimes -- however wacky -- now all have the serious aim of boosting his wealth."

[The Main Man]

One issue with that though, would be the necessity of grading each character's threat level, which would lead to the need of creating said grading system.

True, but couldn't it basically be imported from Champions Universe 5e (I believe that's where it originated).

It also would give a good guide for GM's who like to actually mention it, and as the 5e CU mentions (haven't read CU 6e yet), there are villains who like to brag about their ranking if they know it.

I think that it carries a lot of interesting fluff.

If I remember though, it basically came down to something like:
Alpha - Can't really threaten even minor regions of the planet (City, County, Province/State)
Beta - Can threaten minor regions of the planet (City, County, Province/State), sometimes major ones (Country, Continent)
Delta - Can threaten major regions of the planet (Country, Continent), sometimes even the whole world
Omega - Consistently world threatening

I recall that it had less to do with personal power and more to do with capability, drive, motivation, etc. Firewing and Grond were both Betas while the significantly weaker Masquerade and Fiacho were Deltas, for example.

[The Main Man]

What about possibly just listing whether or not the villain (as written, and assuming they're being used in the Champions Universe) would qualify for "Extensive Non-Combat Influence?" It's often clear one way or the other, but also often not...

This would probably be beyond the scope of what you'd be willing to take on, but I'd personally love to see very brief (literally no more than a sentence or two) spins on each character's background that could have resulted in the character becoming a Hero or an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain instead (or a True Villain if the character is already an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain). For example, Foxbat's writeup could have a line that says something like, "Hero Option: Freddy's obsession with comic books manifested with him imagining himself in the role of a good guy instead of a bad guy. True Villain Option: After losing his trust fund money and facing genuine hard times, Freddy's outlook grew a bit grimmer, and his crimes -- however wacky -- now all have the serious aim of boosting his wealth."

Count me in as intrigued.

Could also be used for superhero write ups in the future.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Count me in as intrigued.

Could also be used for superhero write ups in the future.Foxbat is obviously an extremely simple example (and therefore not necessarily the most interesting illustration of the idea). But the thing I like about it is that it can spur different ways of looking at the character (which can spawn plot seeds), and it can suggest ideas of other ways to use the writeups (either literally as sheets for alternate versions of the characters, or in other campaigns, etc.)

[The Main Man]

Foxbat is obviously an extremely simple example (and therefore not necessarily the most interesting illustration of the idea. But the thing I like about it is that it can spur different ways of looking at the character (which can spawn plot seeds), and it can suggest ideas of other ways to use the writeups (either literally as sheets for alternate versions of the characters, or in other campaigns, etc.)
Yes, that's how I see it too.

It goes hand in hand with a lot of that 6th edition, "it's your game/campaign," philosophy that I picked up on in the core books.

[Spence]

For myself I would prefer backgrounds to be more generic world friendly.

What I mean is having a background so detailed that it is useless unless you are playing them completely in the Champ Universe as written means that it is easier to just scrap the entire villain and make up your own. Which I take as the complete opposite of what a book of villains is for, to allow the GM to have a ready bunch of villainy to draw from when short of time.

I don't mean a complete stripping of detail in any way, but rather adding some prompts/notes. For instance if Villain 'A' is planning to destroy the City because Calvin Biselle bullied and persecuted him as a kid and humiliated him as a teenager instead of saying:

"Megamind's driving force is his plan to destroy the City in revenge for the bullying and humiliation inflicted on him by Calvin Biselle when he was a teenager."

say:

"Megamind's driving force is his plan to destroy the City in revenge for the bullying and humiliation inflicted on him by Calvin Biselle (the Mayor of Millennium City) when he was a teenager."

or even just

"Megamind's driving force is his plan to destroy the City in revenge for the bullying and humiliation inflicted on him by Calvin Biselle (the mayor) when he was a teenager."

That way the book is more usable for the GM that is not running his game in the Champs Universe. Anyone running the CU woudl know that Calvin Biselle is the Mayor of Millennium City, but if you are not, the name is just meaningless noise. But if the description ID's the function of the person named it allows the GM to immediately ID the mentioned NPC's importance.

This allows the full text for the world as published but also takes into account the many people not running cannon.

I don't think I explained that very well, but I'm sure Herodom will be able to read between the lines.

[Spence]

This would probably be beyond the scope of what you'd be willing to take on, but I'd personally love to see very brief (literally no more than a sentence or two) spins on each character's background that could have resulted in the character becoming a Hero or an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain instead (or a True Villain if the character is already an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain). For example, Foxbat's writeup could have a line that says something like, "Hero Option: Freddy's obsession with comic books manifested with him imagining himself in the role of a good guy instead of a bad guy. True Villain Option: After losing his trust fund money and facing genuine hard times, Freddy's outlook grew a bit grimmer, and his crimes -- however wacky -- now all have the serious aim of boosting his wealth."

I third (fourth, fifth?) this. Great idea.

[Checkmate]

This would probably be beyond the scope of what you'd be willing to take on, but I'd personally love to see very brief (literally no more than a sentence or two) spins on each character's background that could have resulted in the character becoming a Hero or an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain instead (or a True Villain if the character is already an Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain). For example, Foxbat's writeup could have a line that says something like, "Hero Option: Freddy's obsession with comic books manifested with him imagining himself in the role of a good guy instead of a bad guy. True Villain Option: After losing his trust fund money and facing genuine hard times, Freddy's outlook grew a bit grimmer, and his crimes -- however wacky -- now all have the serious aim of boosting his wealth."
I loved this in 3rd ed!

I'll be a little sad to see the "How this villain would be a hunted" blurb go away, but the what people know would definitely cheer me up.

[The Main Man]

For myself I would prefer backgrounds to be more generic world friendly.

What I mean is having a background so detailed that it is useless unless you are playing them completely in the Champ Universe as written means that it is easier to just scrap the entire villain and make up your own. Which I take as the complete opposite of what a book of villains is for, to allow the GM to have a ready bunch of villainy to draw from when short of time.

I don't mean a complete stripping of detail in any way, but rather adding some prompts/notes. For instance if Villain 'A' is planning to destroy the City because Calvin Biselle bullied and persecuted him as a kid and humiliated him as a teenager instead of saying:

"Megamind's driving force is his plan to destroy the City in revenge for the bullying and humiliation inflicted on him by Calvin Biselle when he was a teenager."

say:

"Megamind's driving force is his plan to destroy the City in revenge for the bullying and humiliation inflicted on him by Calvin Biselle (the Mayor of Millennium City) when he was a teenager."

or even just

"Megamind's driving force is his plan to destroy the City in revenge for the bullying and humiliation inflicted on him by Calvin Biselle (the mayor) when he was a teenager."

That way the book is more usable for the GM that is not running his game in the Champs Universe. Anyone running the CU woudl know that Calvin Biselle is the Mayor of Millennium City, but if you are not, the name is just meaningless noise. But if the description ID's the function of the person named it allows the GM to immediately ID the mentioned NPC's importance.

This allows the full text for the world as published but also takes into account the many people not running cannon.

I don't think I explained that very well, but I'm sure Herodom will be able to read between the lines.

Well, I get what you're saying, and I think that it's a good idea.

Not every GM uses the Champions Universe. Hell, imagine if there was little work to be done for inserting any character into other campaigns.

On the other hand, that may take some work to "genericize" backgrounds; perhaps there could be a section in the book about how to adapt supervillains to other campaigns.

CKC did have a section similar to this as it would apply to alternate genres.

[Dreamstreamer]

Are these books specific to the Champions Universe or are they, like the Champions sourcebook, catering to the broader spectrum of supers roleplaying?

Wanted posters with a mugshot (or blurry image if never apprehended) and a quick description of why the villain is wanted by the law - I see this as perhaps most useful for introducing Solo villains, but could be used for Teams or Master villains, perhaps as F.B.I.'s most wanted? For example, Electronamo: Wanted for Murder, Aggravated Assault, Kidnapping and Arson. Essentially, what might show up in a super team's crime computer or villain database. I realize that creating one for every villain or group is impractical, but a few of them scattered throughout the books could be fun.

Master Villains - Suggestions on the best ways to play a successful master villain
-- How to maintain control of henchmen - I hear fear works. So does money!
-- Where funding comes from - Are they all independently wealthy? Steal to get what they need? Have an honest job?
-- How do you (as GM) develop plot's slowly - How to keep the heroes from immediately knocking on the master villain's door, because nobody likes the heroes crashing the party early.
-- Trap construction for master villain lairs - Foolproof? But superheroes are a better breed of fools! Perhaps reference Ultimate Base?
-- A (small) section on monologuing - Remember Syndrome from The Incredibles? Yeah, that.

Team Villains - Suggestions on the best ways to play a successful team of villains
-- Why are they together - Common motivations for teams/gangs.
-- What keeps them from killing each other or stabbing each other in the back - Something more than selfishness in villains.
-- Who is really in charge - How teams blunder the coup d'etat.
-- Gangs - Not all villain teams are super-powered.

Solo Villains - Suggestions on the best ways to play a successful solo villain
-- Vigilantism or misguided villain - The darker side of heroism.
-- Common crimes and how they occur - For random encounters.
-- Crime-committing duos - More than solo, yet less than a team.

Just a few thoughts I had. I'll try to dream up more tonight. I have to say, it is fun shoving ideas out there into the ether. It's kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if any of it sticks.

[Rapier]

Teams.

Lots and lots of teams. I tend to shy away from many 6 on 1 superbaddy battles. I could care less what Tokafanes's stats are. I'm never, ever going to use him...and if I wanted to he's going to be a plot device. I just have no use in my game for villains built on 1000+ points.

A couple of loose average point villains are nice, but I get the most use out of teams.

One of the things I've always thought that set CLOWN (oh CLOWN, how I miss thee [hint hint 8P]) and FoxBat apart was that you knew what kind of crimes and schemes they tended to prefer. I think that is part of why I do so favour them. If the book doesn't tell you that the Penguin likes bird-themed crimes, and CatWoman cat-themed crimes, it's almost a shame. Is EuroStar after global domination or would a small country be enough? Does Armadillo really care about who's in charge or what kind of crime he commits as long as it earns him a comfy lifestyle? Why a character commits crimes or acts how they do is very important, but as a GM the ability to fit the crime to the group/individual adds that extra bit of oomf that makes the game memorable.

I guess what I'm asking for is a bit about Modus Operandi in the Motivation section of each character and group.

I also find the bits about team dynamics important. If someone is rankling under the heavy-handed direction of the group's leader, that is important information for a heroic team to have.

CLOWN? :)

[The Main Man]

A list of ideas:

1) I wonder if there is any villain-specific material that could be gleaned from Villainy Amok?

2) Might there be the possibility of quick-fix Templates and/or Powers for villain writeups in the tradition of the HSB?

The villain adaptation guide could be put at the beginning of the book and expanded.

It could discuss what to add versus what to remove from any given villain writeup as per various genres - an emphasis on what truly defines the character might be a useful piece of advice.

3) What if there was a discussion of superhumans and the law, seeing as this a book is full of superhuman criminals? (I haven't read CU 6e yet)

4) Some advice for making supervillains stand out in a game rather than be another face to punch would be nifty.

5) Game mastering advice for Masters, Teams, and Solo Villains could start every respective chapter.

6) This is a different suggestion, but I'm giving it a shot: what if, for reading experience, the order went solo villains, then villain teams, and then master villains, with advice for each section kinda building upon earlier advice so that it weans the reader into the more complex villains to run in a game?

[torchwolf]

6) This is a different suggestion, but I'm giving it a shot: what if, for reading experience, the order went solo villains, then villain teams, and then master villains, with advice for each section kinda building upon earlier advice so that it weans the reader into the more complex villains to run in a game?
That would depend on the order in which you bought the books. ;)

Heya folx! It's time for another WDYWTS thread. This time out: the Champions Villains trilogy!

As many of you already know, I'm currently working on a three-book review of the villains of the Champions Universe:

Volume 1: Master Villains
Volume 2: Villain Teams
Volume 3: Solo Villains

These are currently planned as hardcover, full-color books.

[Hierax]

Dr. Draconis needs to come back!

I'd love to see some big-bad Ultimate villains like (most especially) Takofanes/Kal-Turak (ultimate Mystic villain), and Menton (Ultimate Mentalist villain), Teleios, etc. with a few different versions (various power levels, historical points) if possible sorta like Dr. Destroyer got in the Book of the Destroyer. Detailed write-ups really showcasing the variety of powers possible with the Hero System beyond the basics like the Ultimate books do so well -- a showcase Ultimate villain for each of these Ultimate sub-types -- Brick, Martial Arts, Energy Projector, Speedster, Mystic, Metamorph, Powersuit, etc...

I know it's for Champions but other Genre adaptation tips would be much welcomed value added.

[Steve Long]

Teams.

This may come across as sarcastic or peeved, but I promise I'm in neither mood. ;)

Did you even read the introductory post? There's an entire book of villain teams. That's one reason I organized the trilogy the way it is, to make it easier for a GM to find what he's lookin' for. ;)

[Steve Long]

Once again, let me respond to a few points that have been raised by several of you. ;)

1. There aren't going to be any sections on roleplaying villains, villain types, ways to use villains, or what have you. That's covered sufficiently in Champions, and in the case of some subjects (like superhumans and the law) in Champions Universe. The CV trilogy is nothing but a big ol' collection of villains to use in your games.

2. I don't particularly care for the "how to use this guy as a hero" bit; it's more work for me that I don't think most gamers will ever get any use out of. But as usual, never say never.

3. The CV trilogy covers the villains of the Champions Universe, so yes, it's tied to a setting. But I don't think that restricts its usefulness in any way, and I'm not going to try to "genericize" the villains any more than they already are, for a couple of reasons. First, the CU is already pretty much as "generic" as, say, the Marvel or DC Universes, which is to say, as "generic" as most Champions campaigns IMO. I don't think any "genericization" is necessary for the villains to be used in most campaigns -- and to the extent that it is, that's a very personal-to-the-GM thing that I can't really help with. Second, I think that Champions players are pretty smart and savvy and can easily figure out how to adapt these villains to their own campaigns without the need for any extra work on my part. ;)

4. I don't have the time or page space to provide different versions/power levels of villains; the best you can expect there is the "how to make this villain more/less powerful" paragraph that appears in the Campaign Use section of the character sheet. Nor do I have time or page space to provide suggestions about uses in other genres -- this isn't a multi-genre book, it's a book for Champions and I'm going to keep it focused thataway. ;)

5. There will be no, I repeat no, Lady Blue centerfold. Ain't happenin'. :eek: :nonp: ;)

[casualplayer]

For example, Foxbat's writeup could have a line that says something like, "Hero Option: Freddy's obsession with comic books manifested with him imagining himself in the role of a good guy instead of a bad guy. True Villain Option: After losing his trust fund money and facing genuine hard times, Freddy's outlook grew a bit grimmer, and his crimes -- however wacky -- now all have the serious aim of boosting his wealth."

"I'm the goddamn Foxbat."

[megaplayboy]

I'm tempted to request a sidebar titled "How to beat Dr. Destroyer" but I guess one titled "How do my players beat the Big Bad?" would work too. Or just a few helpful tips for players dealing with seemingly unbeatable opponents.

[Hugh Neilson]

CLOWN isn't going to happen in these books, I'm sure.

But for some future supplement, perhaps we might see a new CLOWN - one which centers on the lighthearted, prank-based criminals from the silver age, perhaps even stealing some names and schticks from the old CLOWN characters, but reinventing the characters so they are focused on interesting and entertaining adventures, not on controlling the characters and frustrating their players.

Probably not for this outing, though. That's too many new villains, and even if Steve wanted to add another dozen or so new villains, I'd rather they be selected for variety and interesting new concepts than a theme group.

I'd like to see characters, old or new, that showcase some of the changes from 5e to 6e. They don't all need to have base OCV=Base DCV=1/3 DEX (and I would still like to see DEX brought back into line, and reflect how agile this character is, rather than how high his base CV's are, but that ship has realistically already sailed). Let's see some villains with creative Barriers, use of Damage Negation, villains with lower defenses but high STUN and REC. Steve, let's see some characters who demonstrate that the changes and additions in 6e have improved the game play experience with creative use of the new and changed mechanics. That's the kind of thing that could motivate someone who has all these villains already to be a buyer. If there's nothing else that's new - the book is just "here's all our old villains using the new 6e point structure", then the per character cost of those 20 new villains is pretty high for an existing Hero-Ite to shell out the price of 3 new books.

[mattingly]

For teams, I'd like to see some tactics/maneuvers. I'm awful at running teams like Eurostar - I'm never enough of a rat bastard to give them the right feel. Having some sets of suggested tactics (Durak will throw rocks and buses at innocents, making himself the target; meanwhile, at least two other members will focus on taking down the oposing leader; Fiacho will often stand back to observe, but will fill in as needed; etc.) would help me tremendously.

[The Main Man]

That would depend on the order in which you bought the books. ;)

*smacks self in forehead*

Doh!

Well, that changes things a bit...

[The Main Man]

I got to thinking that, depending on the overall size of the Master Villains book, what if each entry was basically a mini-Book of the Destroyer/Machine?

Come to think of it, The Dragon Mandarin is pretty close to what I'm picturing.

Something that could save time on that could be a generic "Master Villain Henchman" and each Master Villain has a Template that can be added to the base character sheet.

[megaplayboy]

I got to thinking that, depending on the overall size of the Master Villains book, what if each entry was basically a mini-Book of the Destroyer/Machine?

Come to think of it, The Dragon Mandarin is pretty close to what I'm picturing.

Something that could save time on that could be a generic "Master Villain Henchman" and each Master Villain has a Template that can be added to the base character sheet.
Well, I'd hope that both the master villain and team books would go into a bit more detail than has previously been the case. Also, I'd hope that Ist'vatha V'han has more powers than an energy blast, this time around...

[Steve Long]

Well, I'd hope that both the master villain and team books would go into a bit more detail than has previously been the case.

The Master Villains book certainly will, though there are practical limits on how much I can say about any given bad guy. The Teams book may, but that's less likely.



Also, I'd hope that Ist'vatha V'han has more powers than an energy blast, this time around...

She already does -- her Extradimensional Movement ability and her defenses. And that's all she's going to have this time around. She's already the most dangerous villain in the entire setting; she doesn't need to be a combat monster as well. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

My initial input:

1) I support the "How to use this character as a hero" idea, but not so strongly. I'd rather see a "how to darken or lighten this character's tone" bit in Campaign Use -- not for all the characters, necessarily, but for enough that a GM doesn't have to stretch too far if he's running a "superpowered serial killer" game, or a comedic game. (On the latter note especially, I'm personally fond of playing Grond as a dimwitted rube, as easily manipulated as Yosemite Sam, with similar results.)

2) I'd like to see Foxbat in the Master Villains book rather than the Solo Villains book. Adding Exo-Skeleton Man and/or other sidekicks is optional (though I'd love to have at least Leroy and the Centipedemobile), but somehow it Just Seems Right that he be in there.

3) In the Solo Villains book, if possible, I'd love to see Blue Screamer (from DH22). I've always wanted to make a specific contribution of an ongoing character to a published universe, even if a very small one, and this would certainly qualify. (Yes, my motivation for this request is entirely selfish. So shoot me. But what the hey -- DOJ already owns the rights to the character, so why not?)

4) I tend to agree with the idea of doing away with the "Plot Seeds" sidebars. In place of that, some general broad strokes can be listed in the Campaign Use section on the types of scenarios and plot complications the character can generate. Since a large share of the published characters already have that, it shouldn't be too much work.

Those are just my initial thoughts, mind you; I have plenty more. ;)

[The Main Man]

The Master Villains book certainly will, though there are practical limits on how much I can say about any given bad guy. The Teams book may, but that's less likely.




She already does -- her Extradimensional Movement ability and her defenses. And that's all she's going to have this time around. She's already the most dangerous villain in the entire setting; she doesn't need to be a combat monster as well. ;)

That's always been my favorite part about Istvatha V'Han - whatever you need her to have, just give it to her, cuz she rules a billion dimensions (or so she claims).

[Lord Liaden]

For teams, I'd like to see some tactics/maneuvers. I'm awful at running teams like Eurostar - I'm never enough of a rat bastard to give them the right feel. Having some sets of suggested tactics (Durak will throw rocks and buses at innocents, making himself the target; meanwhile, at least two other members will focus on taking down the oposing leader; Fiacho will often stand back to observe, but will fill in as needed; etc.) would help me tremendously.

I agree with including suggested team tactics and maneuvers. A number of published teams for Third and Fourth Edition Champs -- Strike Force, the Protectors, the Asesinos, the Zodiac -- included combat maneuvers with names and code words, and sub-team combinations for specific types of missions, which taught me a lot about how to run a superteam. Personally I feel comfortable handling that part of the game now, but for newcomers or folks like Dave ;) that would doubtlessly be quite helpful.

[Lord Liaden]

There will be no, I repeat no, Lady Blue centerfold. Ain't happenin'. :eek: :nonp: ;)

Maybe just a larger, more detailed illo for Howler? :eg:

[Lord Liaden]

That's always been my favorite part about Istvatha V'Han - whatever you need her to have, just give it to her, cuz she rules a billion dimensions (or so she claims).

Yeah, according to her write-up in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks that's an exaggeration -- it's only around a hundred million. ;)

Given her concept, one would be well justified to take any published character, weapon, or vehicle, change its name and perhaps appearance, and call it part of V'han's forces.

Note that the current 2011 publishing schedule includes the Book Of The Empress, giving Istvatha the same detailed treatment as Dr. Destroyer and Mechanon have already received in their own "Books Of...".

[The Main Man]

Yeah, according to her write-up in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks that's an exaggeration -- it's only around a hundred million. ;)

Given her concept, one would be well justified to take any published character, weapon, or vehicle, change its name and perhaps appearance, and call it part of V'han's forces.

Note that the current 2011 publishing schedule includes the Book Of The Empress, giving Istvatha the same detailed treatment as Dr. Destroyer and Mechanon have already received in their own "Books Of...".

Yes, and I'm pumped for that book.

In many cases, who says that you even need to file the serial numbers off?

What she conquered a universe with Doctor Destroyer in it? What if she's conquered thousands?

Once again, the possibilities are virtually endless with her.

[Nuclear Fridge]

:eg:
The Master Villains book certainly will, though there are practical limits on how much I can say about any given bad guy. The Teams book may, but that's less likely.




She already does -- her Extradimensional Movement ability and her defenses. And that's all she's going to have this time around. She's already the most dangerous villain in the entire setting; she doesn't need to be a combat monster as well. ;)

"We have legions - legions - at our command. You... have six people in bright garments and a quaint aircraft.
"We do not need to sully our hands on the likes of you. General Harmon? Deploy the Ninth Legion to deal with them..." Istvatha V'han, just before the &@$% hit the fan at speed.

[The Main Man]

If I may try to steer the thread back on course... (since all of this talk of Istvatha V'han seems much more appropriate for a Book of the Empress thread)


1) How much Book of the Destroyer/Machine material (if any) will be in the Master Villains book?

2) I do have the feeling that the Villain Teams book could be a sort of half-step between the Solo and the Masters book.

[casualplayer]

Yeah, according to her write-up in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks that's an exaggeration -- it's only around a hundred million. ;)

Given her concept, one would be well justified to take any published character, weapon, or vehicle, change its name and perhaps appearance, and call it part of V'han's forces.

Note that the current 2011 publishing schedule includes the Book Of The Empress, giving Istvatha the same detailed treatment as Dr. Destroyer and Mechanon have already received in their own "Books Of...".

"I would have these impertinent intruders gone from my sight. Release the Grond Troops!"

[Steve]

Speaking of Grond, I'd like to see a more detailed write-up of him for the new books, one that makes him more of an unstoppable engine of destruction. Towards that end, please consider using powers like Damage Negation or some of the Strength and Toughness powers from Champions Powers in his new write-up.

[novi]

I know it's more work for you, but I'll also toss my vote in for more than just doing a straight port from 5th edition on the characters. Not necessarily all of them, but it would be nice to see write-ups taking advantage of all the new options in 6th edition. I don't know about anyone else, but I always find it illustrative to have example characters to look at and see how its done when I'm trying to grok a game.

And another vote for making Grond's write-up match his reputation better.

[ghost-angel]

In Villain Teams: I want to see more of the Tiger Squad, and not just a few more - this is a "team" with dozens of members, break it down into suggestions of "sub-teams" of members that prefer to work together, give us a good dozen to create a viable realistic group of people that are forced together by circumstance rather than any underlying ideology.

In Master Villains: A few who aren't quite Megalomaniac Level and would settle for merely ruling a country. Like say, Eva Peron as Master Villainess or something.

[BobGreenwade]

I know it's more work for you, but I'll also toss my vote in for more than just doing a straight port from 5th edition on the characters. Not necessarily all of them, but it would be nice to see write-ups taking advantage of all the new options in 6th edition. I don't know about anyone else, but I always find it illustrative to have example characters to look at and see how its done when I'm trying to grok a game.I'll echo this, particularly:

1) on characters whose OCV and DCV differ from each other, and from what would have been expected from the given DEX, for reasons other than the character's size.

2) for including Powers and other options from APG, particularly Possession; Entangles and Mental Powers based on Characteristics other than EGO and CON; the Affects Large Targets Advantage for Entangle; and characters who Combine.

[The Main Man]

Speaking of Grond, I'd like to see a more detailed write-up of him for the new books, one that makes him more of an unstoppable engine of destruction. Towards that end, please consider using powers like Damage Negation or some of the Strength and Toughness powers from Champions Powers in his new write-up.

I figure that his Ultimate Brick writeup would be a good start, plus Damage Negation would make a good replacement for Lack of Weakness.

Also, I've thought for some time that Grond should have elements related to his size, like reach and Knockback Resistance - he's depicted as too big to mechanically handwave in my opinion.

[Greywind]

How tall is he supposed to be in CO anyways?

[The Main Man]

I don't personally know, but judging from the few pics that I've seen from 6e 1&2, he easily looks Large, possibly Semi-Enormous.

I also wonder if there could be a little more differentiation between Grond and Obelisque - they fill pretty darn similar roles and seem too interchangeable.

I would also like to request that Ogre be adapted from his TUB version.


Um...

[ghost-angel]

How tall is he supposed to be in CO anyways?

In CKC he's listed as 12 feet tall, I don't know how much that's changed since Cryptic took over.

[GestaltBennie]

I don't personally know, but judging from the few pics that I've seen from 6e 1&2, he easily looks Large, possibly Semi-Enormous.

I also wonder if there could be a little more differentiation between Grond and Obelisque - they fill pretty darn similar roles and seem too interchangeable.

I would also like to request that Ogre be adapted from his TUB version.


Um...

This is my CO shot of Grond. Thundrax is 6'7".

((image deleted))

Hope this helps.

Damn, image won't shrink. Here's the link:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j229/GestaltBennie/Grond.jpg

[Supreme Serpent]

4. OTOH, the "Plot Seeds" sidebars are going away. They suffer from a number of problems, including (a) they tend to become repetitive, since there are relatively few ways to make a single villain the focus of a plot involving an entire superhero team, and (b) they're a royal pain in the ass to write. If I add a "what people know" sidebar, that would take up the requisite sidebar space anyway... and to some extent that and an "Associates and Antagonists" section might cover much the same ground as "Plot Seeds."


Maybe this covers some of the ground of "things you're not going to do", but maybe a section for "Clues villain might be in area" - not a plot, but some bits that could help indicate an MO and establish a feel for the character. Things like "Loud roars and cars flying through the air" for Grond, or more subtle ones like "Local fishermen report odd movements in the water" for Leech, to things like "Local manufacturer reports theft of 17 taffy-pull machines" for Foxbat.

[Lord Liaden]

I'd just like to register my support for an "upgrade" to Grond. He was about the biggest deal around in strength and physical toughness through Fourth Edition, and was treated as if that was still true in Fifth Edition Champions Universe; but several 5E characters were significantly stronger and tougher than him. Now that Grond is on the cover of the 6E genre book taking on the whole Champions team, he really deserves to regain that stature.

There could be a few CU bricks who match Grond's strength, at least under certain circumstances, e.g. Gargantua with full Growth, Ripper using his temporary Strength boost, or Valak the World-Ravager because he's a cosmic menace; but IMHO nobody on Champions Earth should be stronger. Nobody.


In Villain Teams: I want to see more of the Tiger Squad, and not just a few more - this is a "team" with dozens of members, break it down into suggestions of "sub-teams" of members that prefer to work together, give us a good dozen to create a viable realistic group of people that are forced together by circumstance rather than any underlying ideology.

I doubt Steve would be willing to go that far for this book -- the Tiger Squad could probably fill a sourcebook by themselves. However, if it were practical to add the four Squad members from Watchers of the Dragon who formed their own sub-team, I for one would be satisfied.

[Steve Long]

1) How much Book of the Destroyer/Machine material (if any) will be in the Master Villains book?

Some. Not huge amounts, but some. Both villains will definitely see some of their superpowered "lieutenants" from both books showing up in CV1, f'rex. But I don't want to go too far overboard, since I don't have the time or page space to give every master villain full "Book of" treatment and want to try to keep the coverage appropriate. Some master villains need a little more, some need less, but I don't want to slight one guy inappropriately just because I happen to have a lot of pre-existing material on another. ;)

[Steve Long]

While I don't necessarily agree with some of the observations or opinions some of you have expressed about Grond -- and in fact disagree strongly with some of them -- at the very least I'm going to start with the UB version of his writeup and see what, if anything, I want to change/enhance from there. Similarly, any character who got "upgraded" in CU:NotW will use that character sheet as a starting point, not the one in CKC.

Likewise, Firewing needs a bit of beefing up to make sure his status as "best of the Champions Universe energy projectors" is preserved... or at least fodder for reasonable debates on these h'yar message boards. ;)

[Steve Long]

In Villain Teams: I want to see more of the Tiger Squad, and not just a few more - this is a "team" with dozens of members, break it down into suggestions of "sub-teams" of members that prefer to work together, give us a good dozen to create a viable realistic group of people that are forced together by circumstance rather than any underlying ideology.

I hate to disappoint, but I'm afraid this isn't going to happen. I only have so much space and time, and if I wanted to add villain teams, or villains to teams, I'd pick a more traditional villain group(s), which are more generally useful to more GMs. The Tiger Squad, as a group of heroes (if potentially antagonistic heroes) needs less attention, IMO, than true villains. Besides which, given a list of other members and their abilities, it's easy to create more by simply adapting some villain with similar powers and just changing his name and costume. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

For teams, I'd like to see some tactics/maneuvers. I'm awful at running teams like Eurostar - I'm never enough of a rat bastard to give them the right feel. Having some sets of suggested tactics (Durak will throw rocks and buses at innocents, making himself the target; meanwhile, at least two other members will focus on taking down the oposing leader; Fiacho will often stand back to observe, but will fill in as needed; etc.) would help me tremendously.

To me, this would be a far better use of sidebar space than plot seeds. How do these characters actually operate in combat (solo or team)? I'd like to see this from two angles, first the good tactics that characters, and especially teams, lean to and, second, the bad tactics and blind spots these characters tend to suffer from. If you want a truly boring game, run every character as though he is fully conscious of all his advantages and drawbacks, with each one always adopting the best possible tactics in each situation. In other words, like game pieces instead of characters. Much of the interaction with Champions villains is in combat - tips on making the villains' strengths, weaknesses and personalities come through in combat makes the game more role playing, and less tactical wargame.


1) I support the "How to use this character as a hero" idea, but not so strongly. I'd rather see a "how to darken or lighten this character's tone" bit in Campaign Use -- not for all the characters, necessarily, but for enough that a GM doesn't have to stretch too far if he's running a "superpowered serial killer" game, or a comedic game. (On the latter note especially, I'm personally fond of playing Grond as a dimwitted rube, as easily manipulated as Yosemite Sam, with similar results.)

I like this - every game has different tone, and some characters are poor fits for certain tones. Options like this make more of the book useful to more readers.


2) I'd like to see Foxbat in the Master Villains book rather than the Solo Villains book. Adding Exo-Skeleton Man and/or other sidekicks is optional (though I'd love to have at least Leroy and the Centipedemobile), but somehow it Just Seems Right that he be in there.

I like this idea. We're not getting CLOWN. Someone lighthearted should be in the Master Villains books, and Foxbat has enough off the cuff references to various allies and resources to fit the bill.


3) In the Solo Villains book, if possible, I'd love to see Blue Screamer (from DH22). I've always wanted to make a specific contribution of an ongoing character to a published universe, even if a very small one, and this would certainly qualify. (Yes, my motivation for this request is entirely selfish. So shoot me. But what the hey -- DOJ already owns the rights to the character, so why not?)

DH in general seems like a good source of characters that aren't in previous books and don't require creation from scratch, which adds to the "things you don't have from buying all our previous books" aspect of these books.


I'll echo this, particularly:

1) on characters whose OCV and DCV differ from each other, and from what would have been expected from the given DEX, for reasons other than the character's size.


YES PLEASE!


2) for including Powers and other options from APG, particularly Possession; Entangles and Mental Powers based on Characteristics other than EGO and CON; the Affects Large Targets Advantage for Entangle; and characters who Combine.

I'm of two minds on the use of APG. On the one hand, I like the idea of illustrating the use of these options. On the other hand, should optional rules like this appear in core books? That leaves the choice of "this ability comes from APG - if you don't have APG, I guess this page is useless to you. Thanks for buying our books", providing an option using the base mechanics meaning loss of space for other characters, or reprinting the APG rules, which both reduces the need for readers to buy APG and wastes space for those who do have it. I'm not sure of the best answer - probably a combination of the three, with very sparing use of the APG concepts (as befits unusual optional rules anyway).


Some. Not huge amounts, but some. Both villains will definitely see some of their superpowered "lieutenants" from both books showing up in CV1, f'rex. But I don't want to go too far overboard, since I don't have the time or page space to give every master villain full "Book of" treatment and want to try to keep the coverage appropriate. Some master villains need a little more, some need less, but I don't want to slight one guy inappropriately just because I happen to have a lot of pre-existing material on another. ;)

I vote for "just enough to whet your appetite so you will run out and buy the Book Of. And similar for characters that don't have a Book Of yet, to stimulate demand for those.

[BobGreenwade]

Here's a thought, for those GMs and groups with an investigative bent:

A few characters might have some special way that they interact with forensic testing. Many of these are fairly obvious, or may have been handled well enough in the appropriate section of Champions (which I'm still waiting to see if I can purchase), but some might have individual features that could call for a brief sentence or two. For example, how closely does Grond's DNA still match his pre-transformation DNA? Does Leech leave any distinctive substances in his footprints? What, if anything, has FBI or PRIMUS learned about the Monster's through trace evidence? This kind of thing wouldn't need to be in all, most, or even very many of the write-ups, but a half-dozen to a dozen such remarks in each book could, at worst, give the GM something to think about.

Similar possibilities include if the after-effects of certain mystical villains' powers are distinctive from the powers of others, and whether there's any distinctive difference between the after-effects of various mentalists. For example, maybe Psimon's Mind Control leaves the victim feeling used and violated, while Menton's leaves the victim disoriented. Again, this doesn't need to be pervasive, nor even necessarily spelled out blatantly (perhaps such details could be inserted as merely passing comments), but for GMs handling investigating heroes such a small thing can make a big difference.

[Lord Liaden]

Likewise, Firewing needs a bit of beefing up to make sure his status as "best of the Champions Universe energy projectors" is preserved... or at least fodder for reasonable debates on these h'yar message boards. ;)

The magnitude of power wielded by "Firewing 3000" from Galactic Champions would pretty well put him in that position, I should think.

I just ask that Firewing's Flight at least have a supersonic maximum Noncombat move this time around. A number of 5E characters were painfully slow fliers, but Firewing was notable in that regard. For a guy who can travel faster than light in space, taking several hours to reach planetary orbit is kinda ridiculous.

Now that I think of it, I recommend reviewing character sheets generally with an eye toward making Noncombat movement rates logically appropriate to character concept or campaign role.

[The Main Man]

I vote for "just enough to whet your appetite so you will run out and buy the Book Of. And similar for characters that don't have a Book Of yet, to stimulate demand for those.
Count me in too.

Heck, if I may toss out a possibly controversial suggestion - what if Book of the Destroyer and Book of the Machine were simply revised for 6th edition?

Considering how long (or should I say, how short) their lifespan was prior to 6th Edition, a revised edition could get more sales out of it from newer players.

Just throwing that onto the table.

[Steve Long]

Just to clarify on one point so no further bandwidth is wasted on it: I have absolutely no concerns about using Powers and other rules from the APG in other books if necessary. I used a few of them (primarily Possession) in the HSB, for example, and I have no doubt a few will crop into CV. When I use one I usually provide a page reference to the APG to show where it's from. I don't deny that some people may not have the APG and thus won't be entirely clear on what that particular power does. But (a) that certainly doesn't make a character as a whole useless, and (b) that blue-and-gold cover means "all serious Hero players should have this book," and I think nearly all players will have access to at least one serious Hero player with an APG. ;) If not, c'est la vie; I can't please everyone.

[The Main Man]

In regards to the Tiger Squad using other writeups for their basis, maybe villains could have text boxes that mention other characters that are similar to them, if any, as well as simple ways to modify the base character sheet.

That could certainly inflate the book's usefulness for international campaigns, amongst others.

[torchwolf]

Listing "Base of Operations" (or some similar label, to indicate where villains have their general focus, like a specific city, region, or nation) might be useful, even if it just says "mobile", "international", or even "variable".

If this, and the power level classification (Alpha, Beta etc.) is also listed in the Index, finding just the type of CU villain you need might be even easier when you're in a hurry, without requiring a master list.

Maybe not everyone would find that useful, but I would. :)

[The Main Man]

Listing "Base of Operations" (or some similar label, to indicate where villains have their general focus, like a specific city, region, or nation) might be useful, even if it just says "mobile", "international", or even "variable".

If this, and the power level classification (Alpha, Beta etc.) is also listed in the Index, finding just the type of CU villain you need might be even easier when you're in a hurry, without requiring a master list.

Maybe not everyone would find that useful, but I would. :)
I second the idea, assuming that the "quick info" idea is used at all in and of itself.

[casualplayer]

I hear you have a brilliant, modest art director working on this. If he could keep all of a character's relevant info to a single page, that would be amazing.

[Steve Long]

I hear you have a brilliant, modest art director working on this. If he could keep all of a character's relevant info to a single page, that would be amazing.

That's always been our goal, in every book we've ever done. But it's simply not always possible, particularly in the case of a book of superhuman characters, more than a few of whom have character sheets that span 2+ pages, even without descriptive text. Nor are we going to leave large chunks of white space in the book just to try to "conveniently" fit things in, if for no other reason than then you'll all complain about that, too. ;)

[Derek Hiemforth]

if for no other reason than then you'll all complain about that, too. ;)He's on to us! :winkgrin:

[BobGreenwade]

These are a couple of items that have bothered me for a while, but I just now remembered in relation to his book set:

1) In the Teams book in particular, make sure there are ways for the villains to quickly easily get to and from the scene of action. Maybe one member can make a Teleport Gate, or can fly and create a telekinetic sphere that the others can ride along in, or maybe they can all fly at close to the same speed, maybe everyone has a magic ring that allows them to teleport or become invisible, or maybe there's a team vehicle (in which case a Vehicle write-up will be needed). There really should be some way for them to get from their staging ground to where the crime's being committed and back, without the authorities -- including the PCs -- easily tracking them.

Similarly, teams should have some words on what they like to use for staging areas -- whether they have a permanent headquarters (in which case a Base write-up would be very good), what sort of places they use temporarily (abandoned warehouses, motel suites), and so forth.

2) With the Solo Villains, there should be much said both generally (in the Introduction) and individually (in Campaign Use) on how to use the characters in a game that typically focuses on group actions. For the most powerful characters, like Firewing or Grond, that's easy; they're enough on their own to challenge many PC teams. But others, such as Green Dragon, look more like foes in single-hero comics, and will need some suggestions on how to make them the source of a challenge for an entire team: ad hoc master villains with hired thugs, hired mercenaries for Masterminds or groups, members of temporary groups, and so forth.

As for organizing the Solo Villains book, I'd suggest doing something other than just jamming them all together in alphabetical order. Maybe they can be divided up by campaign function: Major Threats, Mercenaries, Assassins, Nuisances, and such.

(I'd initially been going to suggest that they be sorted according to what "World" they belong to -- Mystic, Technological, Mercenary, and so forth. But I think that information would be better given in a table at the back of the book.)

[ghost-angel]

I hate to disappoint, but I'm afraid this isn't going to happen. I only have so much space and time, and if I wanted to add villain teams, or villains to teams, I'd pick a more traditional villain group(s), which are more generally useful to more GMs. The Tiger Squad, as a group of heroes (if potentially antagonistic heroes) needs less attention, IMO, than true villains. Besides which, given a list of other members and their abilities, it's easy to create more by simply adapting some villain with similar powers and just changing his name and costume. ;)

I find your lack of desire to appease my demands disappointing ...

I didn't expect it to happen, but I thought I'd at least voice the opinion. That last sentence caught my attention though; space allowing I have a new request:

Team Villains: Lists of background and personalities for more members of the Tiger Squad, with suggestions of which Character Sheets from other books to use or adapt.

Not expecting that one either, but you asked what I wanted to see. :)

[casualplayer]

That's always been our goal, in every book we've ever done. But it's simply not always possible, particularly in the case of a book of superhuman characters, more than a few of whom have character sheets that span 2+ pages, even without descriptive text. Nor are we going to leave large chunks of white space in the book just to try to "conveniently" fit things in, if for no other reason than then you'll all complain about that, too. ;)

Space for my notes! And tracking STUN and END. :) I am not one of those shy about writing in my gaming books.

I've noticed the effort and really appreciate it. Things just keep getting better and better.

[The Main Man]

Have the Villain designations consistent with the Champions sourcebook p 162:

Gangsters & Hoodlums
Henchmen
Independent/Freelance
Lieutenants
Master Villains.

I really like those designations and having the Villains book match would be very useful. I also like the archetypes on 167 - it might be a useful way of summarizing the character quickly (e.g. Villain is a Prankster and a Mercenary). Where possible, if a character were to have a complication as described in the sourcebook.

</p>I agree with this sentiment - it makes for yet more "quick info" if the idea is implemented (Gah! I keep returning to that idea.)

[teh bunneh]

I hear you have a brilliant, modest art director working on this.

No, sadly, Fred's going to be doing this one. ;)

[Derek Hiemforth]

No, sadly, Fred's going to be doing this one. ;)Oh, snap!!

[ghost-angel]

Hey Fred, just touching bases to make sure you got those recipes for rabbit stew I sent over last week...

[teh bunneh]

What? :angel:

[casualplayer]

No, sadly, Fred's going to be doing this one. ;)

I chose my adjectives to avoid confusion. (:?p)

casualplayer likes the Long attitude of "flavor to taste" creeping through this thread. Nothing says Durak's stats can't be used for a demon, a Taiwanese Triad enforcer or Ogun, God of Iron.

[The Main Man]

I may argue that it is an attitude that should be cultivated.

I'm no business nor marketing expert but I would guess that non-supers HEROphiles might be more likely to purchase the villains books if the idea that no writeup is written in stone was instilled into their design philosophy throughout the 6e line.

[Greywind]

The non-supers HEROphiles need reindoctrinating...

[Steve Long]

casualplayer likes the Long attitude of "flavor to taste" creeping through this thread. Nothing says Durak's stats can't be used for a demon, a Taiwanese Triad enforcer or Ogun, God of Iron.

Sure. We even said that in CKC years ago, with an example showing how to turn Anubis into a Chinese god. Between the CV trilogy and the HSB, a clever GM should have no trouble coming up with virtually anything by making a few changes -- and if you have the Character Packs for the books, it's just a few seconds' worth of mouse-clicks! ;)

[PhantomGM6101]

What about THE CORRUPTORS OF ALL first seen in the third ed enemies book?
or AGENT ANARKY from European Enemies plus the following:
ROADKILL from ROADKILL[4th ed]
TIME MASTER from Classic Enemies
PSI-KIN from Villiany UNBOUND[3rd ed]
THUNDER & LIGHTNING from Classic Enemies

[bigbywolfe]

What about THE CORRUPTORS OF ALL first seen in the third ed enemies book?
or AGENT ANARKY from European Enemies plus the following:
ROADKILL from ROADKILL[4th ed]
TIME MASTER from Classic Enemies
PSI-KIN from Villiany UNBOUND[3rd ed]
THUNDER & LIGHTNING from Classic Enemies
Steve already addressed this:

I understand if this would constitute bean-spilling at this point, but I was wondering if any of the classic Champions villains that hadn't yet made it into 5E books will show up in the CV volumes. For example, I've sometimes seen hints in published books and website postings that Archimago could possibly make a comeback. :bounce:

I'm willing to spill that many beans, at least. ;) No, none of the 20-some new villains in CV are "old" villains being written up again, returned from the dead, or what have you. The new villains, be they from the MMO or not, are entirely new.*

[PhantomGM6101]

OOOKAAY so instead of resurrecting them ,Why not reimagine them for the 6th ed and the MMO? The Corruptors had'nt been seen in the Champions Universe for decades!!

[The Main Man]

Perhaps there could be some sort of mentioning about the general power level that each villain assumes that the PC's are at.
It could be as simple as Active Points or Damage Classes. I think that it would be useful as an adjustment guide for non-standard power level groups.

[bigbywolfe]

OOOKAAY so instead of resurrecting them ,Why not reimagine them for the 6th ed and the MMO? The Corruptors had'nt been seen in the Champions Universe for decades!!
He didn't just say it was because some of them were dead. Most aren't. He said, "No, none of the 20-some new villains in CV are "old" villains being written up again." Period. Why keep asking for it when he very clearly stated that it is not going to happen in these books?

[gojira]

Sure. We even said that in CKC years ago, with an example showing how to turn Anubis into a Chinese god. Between the CV trilogy and the HSB, a clever GM should have no trouble coming up with virtually anything by making a few changes -- and if you have the Character Packs for the books, it's just a few seconds' worth of mouse-clicks! ;)


I was going to mention that very example. Will there be something similar in any of the three books? Two to four pages with a similar example in each of the books would be a neat addition. I actually like the idea of turning Durak into a demon... or maybe an NPC Hero to save the day.

[JmOz]

I'm sure this has been dabated elsewhere, and has probably already been decided on and will not change, however I want to make an official request:

While I agree with the idea of making the names of the books more generic, I would like to see something more creative for a subtitle on the books. As an example under this format: Champions Villains: Masterminds Those who would Rule. Not very creative on my part but illustrates my point I think

[megaplayboy]

I was going to mention that very example. Will there be something similar in any of the three books? Two to four pages with a similar example in each of the books would be a neat addition. I actually like the idea of turning Durak into a demon... or maybe an NPC Hero to save the day.

Bring back "Professor Preserver" from Champs 3-D!

[Spence]

Well, I get what you're saying, and I think that it's a good idea.

Not every GM uses the Champions Universe. Hell, imagine if there was little work to be done for inserting any character into other campaigns.

On the other hand, that may take some work to "genericize" backgrounds; perhaps there could be a section in the book about how to adapt supervillains to other campaigns.

CKC did have a section similar to this as it would apply to alternate genres.


Thanks for getting what I meant. Though it doesn't look likely from Steve's comments down thread. But then it isn't a must have either. What I am really looking forward to is having a large pool of supers that can be used as build examples, as well as conversion examples.

I've been tailoring villains for use in my games for years so I guess I can continue to do so....

[casualplayer]

I was going to mention that very example. Will there be something similar in any of the three books? Two to four pages with a similar example in each of the books would be a neat addition. I actually like the idea of turning Durak into a demon... or maybe an NPC Hero to save the day.

Could probably nab a template from the Bestiary and graft it to Durak. Turn Ogre into an Oni.

[Spence]

Could probably nab a template from the Bestiary and graft it to Durak. Turn Ogre into an Oni.

Now you're just being mean to your players......



jots down idea for later use

[Lord Liaden]

Now I feel plain stupid. Playing Champions 5E for nearly eight years, and it never occurred to me to modify published Champs heroes or villains using the templates from the Bestiary. :o Thank you for that insight, casualplayer.

When I posted my campaign background for the CU's "Valley of Night," I described almost every one of my dozen or so suggested original NPCs and creatures in terms of tweaking the sheets for published characters.

[PhantomGM6101]

How about creating Teenage Villians for Teen Champions?
At least give my Teen heroes some enemies their own age and speed.

[megaplayboy]

Dude, there's nothing stopping you from powering down and de-aging some of the villains in the books. In fact, if you buy the character pack for hero designer(and own hero designer), you can then modify them pretty easily to suit your tastes.

[Nuclear Fridge]

How about creating Teenage Villians for Teen Champions?
At least give my Teen heroes some enemies their own age and speed.

Heck, Brainchild (from CKC) would be perfect - his background says he always had his psychic powers. Just chop off a point of SPD, reduce his gadgets some - especially his 'disintegrator pistol' - and there you go: the nerd president of the debate society, the chess club, and the electronics club. It's just a bit weird how he can somehow talk the hot cheerleaders into dating him...

[Steve Long]

I don't have the space to add a bunch of teen villains -- if we ever get a chance to rework Teen Champions for 6E I'll do so in that book. But in the meantime, I think several posters have it right; it's easy to de-power an existing villain down to appropriate "teen" levels. Brainchild, as mentioned, is a good candidate; so is Hummingbird, who was young in CKC (though she's now a few years older ;) ). I can think of a bunch more who become teen villains if you take away a point or two of SPD (and reduce other Characteristics as appropriate), whittle their powers down to just 1-4 core abilities, and so on.

And now... back to Characteristic block editing! :hex:

[BobGreenwade]

I don't have the space to add a bunch of teen villains -- if we ever get a chance to rework Teen Champions for 6E I'll do so in that book. But in the meantime, I think several posters have it right; it's easy to de-power an existing villain down to appropriate "teen" levels. Brainchild, as mentioned, is a good candidate; so is Hummingbird, who was young in CKC (though she's now a few years older ;) ). I can think of a bunch more who become teen villains if you take away a point or two of SPD (and reduce other Characteristics as appropriate), whittle their powers down to just 1-4 core abilities, and so on.All of which sounds like a good point to cover in the books' Introductions, and probably several individual villains' Campaign Use sections. (But then, you probably figured that much out already.) ;)

[gojira]

Could probably nab a template from the Bestiary and graft it to Durak. Turn Ogre into an Oni.

Just to be 100% clear, I'm asking about a section in the Villain books that explains how to kit-bash with Hero. I'm not asking for a specific re-working of Durak or for a new villain to be added to the Villain collections.

There's a two page (one piece of paper, front and back) section in CKC that gives two examples for CKC: one turns Anubis into a Chinese sorcerer-godling, and the other cobbles together an Asian archery based super-villain from Warpath's character sheet. It's pretty minimal but if you were unclear on this sort kit-bashing it does give you some ideas how to go about it.

That's what I'm suggesting.

[megaplayboy]

Well, you can also use the various Ultimate books, the new Hero System Powers and the Martial Arts book to graft new abilities onto a stock writeup. Or change the stock writeup's sfx in order to graft a new power or set of abilities on.

[The Main Man]

Well, you can also use the various Ultimate books, the new Hero System Powers and the Martial Arts book to graft new abilities onto a stock writeup. Or change the stock writeup's sfx in order to graft a new power or set of abilities on.

My personal opinion is that every book of writeups should have at least a blurb pointing out the extreme flexibility of any given HERO system writeup.

It's somewhat about selling the idea, but I believe that it also would be about demonstration and reinforcement of the idea that no writeup is written in stone since HERO lets you peak behind the curtain and make your own arrangements to your tastes - it's not an army rations kit, it's a five-star kitchen!

[AnotherSkip]

Ok So, Not necessarily for this book but something to keep kicking around maybe for later, How about Older Villians who have gone on and left some of their power sources behind. after 70 + years there could be all sorts of artifact goodies just waiting to be grafted onto hapless NPC's who have a longer history than their latest weilders... who might even be up to throwing some new spins onto the old gadgets....

[kahuna's bro]

Dude, there's nothing stopping you from powering down and de-aging some of the villains in the books. In fact, if you buy the character pack for hero designer(and own hero designer), you can then modify them pretty easily to suit your tastes.
also ther is nothing wrong is doing the same for heroes and useing them as models[iron man armored adventures for example]

[Nuclear Fridge]

And that's the beauty of this setting - there really is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to use characters like GRAB, The Warlord, or Fiacho.

I'm going to use Brainchild & Cybermind as the 'leaders' of the Techno Faction, with Bulldozer as their right hand man to keep the Z-grade hired help (like Pulson) in line.
Only problem is, their nerd DNA is going to *@%%$ up their plans before they even get started... Like the mind-control device to make Cateran their 'hot babe sidekick'. :eg:
You can see where this is going...

[Lord Liaden]

It's almost certainly too late to include this concept in this project, but for future reference this seems like as good a place as any to bring it up...

The current Champions Universe includes several masters of genetic manipulation -- Teleios, Dr. Moreau, King Cobra, the Overbrain -- but no one whose specialty is cybernetics, providing a handy origin for cyborg villains and heroes. The 4E CU had several, including Doc Digital and PsiBorg.

For my own recent CU-based campaign I dusted off an official Fourth Edition cyber-scientist who I'm pretty sure is still part of the Champions IP: Dr. Samuel Levy, mentioned in connection with Halfjack in Classic Enemies, and Cyborgs Inc. in the 4E VIPER sourcebook. IMHO anyone who keeps pet cyborg panthers has a leg-up on mad-scientist coolness. :cool:

[shameless self-promotion] For my purposes I had Dr. Levy originally working for VIPER, where he was responsible for the "upgrades" to Halfjack and Ripper; but he chafed under VIPER's restrictions to his research. ARGENT contacted him with a better offer, and helped him fake his own death to throw VIPER off his trail. ARGENT set up an independent laboratory for Dr. Levy, but kept him on retainer and referred clients to him. On behalf of ARGENT Dr. Levy created Interface, and Circuit Breaker who later joined the hero team Nova. [/shameless self-promotion]

[BobGreenwade]

Something to possibly mention in the Introductions of the books is the idea of using some of the "how to change this character" options for the individuals -- especially any that are given for changing the character's tone -- and applying them at a wholesale level to create reimagined parallel worlds with minimal work on the GM. For example, if several of the high-tech villains have options for making them mystical in nature (yes, realistically such a thing would be a couple of sentences in the Introduction with maybe a note or two on individuals, but play along with me here), such options could be applied across the board for an overwhelmingly mystical version of the Champions Universe. Similarly, something to convert the mystical individuals into technology users could be used to make a world where what's recognized as magic doesn't work. Characters could also be given a more "pulp" feel (or Victorian, a la "Gotham by Gaslight"), or a variety of other ideas.

Alternately, this suggestion could be kept in principle by just doing a half or (at most) full page on converting the characters by genre (as, I think, has already been suggested) and pointing out how this can be done to create alternate universes for dimension-hopping PCs.

[wcw43921]

Here's a couple of ideas I had--

*In this thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/73789-Mercenary-Supervillains) I asked the question "Why would a superpowed criminal work for someone other than himself?" The idea was that superpowers were like winning the lottery, and most people who win big lottery prizes usually decide not to work for anyone but themselves, so why would a supervillain? While I got some good responses from the other posters to the thread, I thought you might wish to put in a few words on the subject as well.

*Maybe you could answer, if anyone could, why Willaim Chow still calls himself Utility. As I've said before, to my mind that name is so blah, so meh, so nothing. For someone who prides himself on his superiority, he certainly displayed an inferior imagination the day he named his super-identity. I once suggested he could call himself Ultimate One, and wear a costume that suggested he might be some sort of android to throw people off suspicion of his true identity.

Apparently, though, I'm the only one who has a problem with the name. But if you, or someone, could explain the name to me, I would appreciate it.

Hope that helps.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Should all else fail & he gets beaten up regularly, he can fall back on rewiring his Omni-Pistol as the world's finest pocket tool kit? :eg:

[Lord Liaden]

*Maybe you could answer, if anyone could, why Willaim Chow still calls himself Utility. As I've said before, to my mind that name is so blah, so meh, so nothing. For someone who prides himself on his superiority, he certainly displayed an inferior imagination the day he named his super-identity. I once suggested he could call himself Ultimate One, and wear a costume that suggested he might be some sort of android to throw people off suspicion of his true identity.

Apparently, though, I'm the only one who has a problem with the name. But if you, or someone, could explain the name to me, I would appreciate it.

Perhaps because that kind of pretentiousness is a hallmark of the superhumans he wants to show up. ;) William Chow's description in CKC emphasizes that he doesn't strut or boast or threaten. He just calmly and efficiently gets the job done, whatever the circumstances, through intelligent planning and use of the right tools. To me "Utility" is a succinct description of his approach and his strengths.

Besides, "utility" has a pedigree in comics culture. It's not like Batman uses an "Omega-belt." ;)

[BobGreenwade]

This one's from the Department of Naughty Boys:

Include C.L.O.W.N. in the Index for the Groups book. Don't include the character sheets; just list them in the Index. (Or, if there's a common Master Index for all three books, list them there but say they're in Volume IV.)

It probably won't happen, but at least thinking about it should be worth a laugh. :)

[ChaplainAtheon]

I'd love to see some "grey area" villains. Ones that are spawned not from insanity, blind rage, or megalomania but of a true belief in something that may or may not be evil or bad. Say a Patriot hero who is disgusted with the lies he sees his government perpetrating or the severity of the violence he has witnessed and becomes someone who opposes the government. He doesn't indiscriminately kill or harm innocents (in fact he goes out of his way not to) but he does try to uncover the truth by any means necessary. If that means hurting (not killing) guards to get into a restricted area to gain some kind of proof of a covered up military action he'll do it just to expose the issue to daylight. He'll steal vehicles and work with known criminal elements to gain the access and tools he needs to uncover what he sees as wrong doing.

Something the players struggle with beyond the powers, PD and ED of the villain is where the true fight begins!

[lapsedgamer]

How about some sort of alliance diagram to show how everyone cooperates, or does not, in the default CU. You could then run plot threads based off of this up the side or acrosss the bottom of the page. Hilarity could ensue.

Along the same line, maybe some organizational charts for the bigger agencies.

Guess who recently had to take a managment class at work.

[BobGreenwade]

How about some sort of alliance diagram to show how everyone cooperates, or does not, in the default CU.I'll second this part. I'd go so far as to call it a brilliant idea.

[bigbywolfe]

I'd love to see some "grey area" villains. Ones that are spawned not from insanity, blind rage, or megalomania but of a true belief in something that may or may not be evil or bad. Say a Patriot hero who is disgusted with the lies he sees his government perpetrating or the severity of the violence he has witnessed and becomes someone who opposes the government. He doesn't indiscriminately kill or harm innocents (in fact he goes out of his way not to) but he does try to uncover the truth by any means necessary. If that means hurting (not killing) guards to get into a restricted area to gain some kind of proof of a covered up military action he'll do it just to expose the issue to daylight. He'll steal vehicles and work with known criminal elements to gain the access and tools he needs to uncover what he sees as wrong doing.

Something the players struggle with beyond the powers, PD and ED of the villain is where the true fight begins!

Considering that there are a number of characters like this in the 5E material I'm sure there will still be plenty in the new books.

[megaplayboy]

I'd like to see this trio of books be quite successful...and then see another trio of books in 2 years, this time featuring 300 brand new characters, including master villains, solos, and villain teams. Variety is the spice of campaign life, and also it really helps book sales. ;)

[mattingly]

Advice on running Thugs. How do you differentiate Thug 1 from Thug 2? What are some personality traits, unusual maneuvers, strange weapon choices that can make them memorable? What kind of Thugs would go to work for Villian X, and why?

It's a common enough trope that to get to the main bad guy, you have to make your way through an increasing hierarchy of Thugs. I want ways to make that more fun for my players, and for me as GM.

[BobGreenwade]

I'd like to see this trio of books be quite successful...and then see another trio of books in 2 years, this time featuring 300 brand new characters, including master villains, solos, and villain teams. Variety is the spice of campaign life, and also it really helps book sales. ;)This is highly unlikely, of course; DOJ no longer owns the CU, remember. (Not that I'd object to such a thing.)

[megaplayboy]

This is highly unlikely, of course; DOJ no longer owns the CU, remember. (Not that I'd object to such a thing.)


From what I've heard regarding the level of commercial success of CO, I'm not entirely sure this will be a problem by 2012 or 2013. :straight:

[Lord Liaden]

I don't think there's anything stopping DoJ from putting out a volume of "generic" villains that aren't part of official Champions Universe continuity and have no connection to the CU. Come to think of it, Steve Long has even mentioned that in the worst case scenario -- something making the Champions license unusable by Hero Games -- they could always create their own all-new setting. So I should think an unintegrated villain volume would be easily doable. Considering how many Hero gamers simply crib elements from published books for their own games, that would probably sell as well as any other villain book.

[bobooton]

Something that might be helpful would be a listing by DC. So if I was looking for a villain or a group of villains of a similar power level, I could find it just by running my finger down an index.

[Greywind]

I don't think there's anything stopping DoJ from putting out a volume of "generic" villains that aren't part of official Champions Universe continuity and have no connection to the CU. Come to think of it, Steve Long has even mentioned that in the worst case scenario -- something making the Champions license unusable by Hero Games -- they could always create their own all-new setting. So I should think an unintegrated villain volume would be easily doable. Considering how many Hero gamers simply crib elements from published books for their own games, that would probably sell as well as any other villain book.Failing that, the general membership here can do as we've always done and post up characters we've made.

[Derek Hiemforth]

2. I don't particularly care for the "how to use this guy as a hero" bit; it's more work for me that I don't think most gamers will ever get any use out of. But as usual, never say never.
Upon reflection, I agree that it would be of questionable value in many cases (probably including the Foxbat example I initially used; I think most gamers could easily see how Freddy could have come out a good guy or a true bad guy). So probably best not to be something included for every character. But it might be an interesting tidbit to include for characters that it would be particularly appropriate for. Like perhaps a note in the Campaign Use section that "If only Kinetik hadn't made the unfortunate choice to call Richard "Dick" before learning that his surname was "Head," perhaps Galactomind would now be The Champions greatest ally instead of their most tenacious foe..." :winkgrin:

On a more serious note, things like this might be particularly appropriate to include for Master Villains. Whether for good or ill, almost any campaign where time travel is possible will probably feature a story sooner or later that involves something like, "Let's go back in time and prevent Albert Zerstoiten from ever becoming Doctor Destroyer!" Potential "sliding doors" moments like these could easily inspire such adventures... :)

[Lord Liaden]

On a more serious note, things like this might be particularly appropriate to include for Master Villains. Whether for good or ill, almost any campaign where time travel is possible will probably feature a story sooner or later that involves something like, "Let's go back in time and prevent Albert Zerstoiten from ever becoming Doctor Destroyer!" Potential "sliding doors" moments like these could easily inspire such adventures... :)

Hmm... IMHO, in most cases a GM willing and able to develop such a timeline-changing scenario, probably has his or her own ideas on how to change a villain's past.

Dr. D would be a particularly bad candidate for this concept, too. I read Book Of The Destroyer, and Albert Zerstoiten was a world-class megalomaniacal jerk almost from birth. :rolleyes:

[JmOz]

Yeah, according to her write-up in Conquerors, Killers, And Crooks that's an exaggeration -- it's only around a hundred million. ;)

Given her concept, one would be well justified to take any published character, weapon, or vehicle, change its name and perhaps appearance, and call it part of V'han's forces.

Note that the current 2011 publishing schedule includes the Book Of The Empress, giving Istvatha the same detailed treatment as Dr. Destroyer and Mechanon have already received in their own "Books Of...".


Perfect for some tit for tat, using the players characters against them

[GestaltBennie]

I don't think there's anything stopping DoJ from putting out a volume of "generic" villains that aren't part of official Champions Universe continuity and have no connection to the CU. Come to think of it, Steve Long has even mentioned that in the worst case scenario -- something making the Champions license unusable by Hero Games -- they could always create their own all-new setting. So I should think an unintegrated villain volume would be easily doable. Considering how many Hero gamers simply crib elements from published books for their own games, that would probably sell as well as any other villain book.

There's also npthing stopping a third party publisher from doing this, if they operate under the appropriate license. :)

[Log-Man]

There's also npthing stopping a third party publisher from doing this, if they operate under the appropriate license. :)
Preposterous!

You might as well try to put a man on the moon!

[Sketchpad]

There's also npthing stopping a third party publisher from doing this, if they operate under the appropriate license. :)

Something you're planning, Scott? ;)

[Lord Liaden]

Something you're planning, Scott? ;)

You mean, aside from that whole "Gestalt" thing? :sneaky:

[BobGreenwade]

Back on topic....

With the written-out "Plot Seeds" gone, we now have the possibilities of more frequently using Sidebars for other things. I've spent the last few days trying to come up with ideas for that, with a little success (which is probably about as much as is needed):

1. For the Groups, and possibly one or two of the Masterminds, you could list individuals from the Solo Villains book who could join the group, and under what circumstances, if the GM wants to expand the roster.

2. For most villain characters creating a "lighter" version, "heroic" version, inversion of type (technological vs magical), or other alternate version of a specific type is fairly straightforward. For a few, the approach may seem less obvious. A sidebar on some of the characters for how to do this, whether the GM wants to change the tone of the game or is just sending the PCs to an alternate universe, could be handy -- probably no more than one or two in each book for each type of change. These should mainly be things that are, as I said, not necessarily obvious but simple to implement (such as "Black Paladin could easily be made into a technological powered-armor character with just a couple of changes to the character sheet, and these changes to his origin"). Of course I'm not really expecting this to be implemented, but I'd be very pleasantly surprised.


On an entirely different note, I'd like to see the paragraph(s) in each character's Campaign Use section that describes "how to make this character more/less powerful" to be worded in such a way as to also give the GM clues as to how to spend Experience Points the character gets. By similar token, a reminder in each book's Introduction to give the villains Experience Points, and general advice on how they should be spent, would also be helpful. As a GM that's been one of my most oft-forgotten tasks.

[mattingly]

1. For the Groups, and possibly one or two of the Masterminds, you could list individuals from the Solo Villains book who could join the group, and under what circumstances, if the GM wants to expand the roster.Ooh, suggested roster changes. Nifty idea.

[GestaltBennie]

You mean, aside from that whole "Gestalt" thing? :sneaky:

I'm just waiting on art at the moment. When that gets to me, I can put the Hero version to bed and do the Superlink version when M&M3 is out.

There are no other writing projects on my desk at this time, and none are in the planning stages.

[BobGreenwade]

There are no other writing projects on my desk at this time, and none are in the planning stages.Then we'll just have to come up with something for you... ;)

[mallet]

Hi Steve,

A quick question about these books.

Will they all be coming out at once, or will they be released one at a time (say like one a month over three months)?

[Steve Long]

Will they all be coming out at once, or will they be released one at a time (say like one a month over three months)?

They'll be released roughly one a month over three months.

Releasing them all at one time would (a) strain our credit line at the printer, if not shatter it into teeny-tiny fragments, and (b) strain many of our customers' ability to keep up with the latest releases.

Once they're all out I have no doubt Darren, Jason, and Tina will come up with some sort of nifty bundle deal for the lot, but releasing them all at once just wouldn't work out well. :hex:

[megaplayboy]

IME, the first villains books to come out for an edition seem to set the standard for character writeups in not just future product, but also a lot of game groups. If writeup X is kosher for Villain A, you're likely to see X pop up on more than a few player character sheets.

[Steve Long]

IME, the first villains books to come out for an edition seem to set the standard for character writeups in not just future product, but also a lot of game groups. If writeup X is kosher for Villain A, you're likely to see X pop up on more than a few player character sheets.

Yes, that's very true; it's just human nature, really. That's why we're releasing Champions Villains as three volumes based around character type over just a couple months, rather than (for example) one villain book covering an assortment of villains per year for three years.

[Grimble]

I'd love to see a revamp and update for the group C.L.O.W.N. ! I like the fact that they are out to shake things up and freak out the straights, but don't want to hurt anyone and won't take or break anything with sentimental value. There aren't enough fun villain groups out there. Every so often you need some comic relief in a campaigns. C.L.O.W.N. fills this role beautifully.

[Keldon]

Didnt read the whole thread <Sorry!>

But I would love to see the Zodiac conspiracy updated :)

[Lord Liaden]

Grimble, you may not be aware that Steve Long has made his feelings about CLOWN clear in more than one post. (I.e. a solo comic relief villain like Foxbat is fine; a whole team of them is overkill IHO.) I feel very confident in saying that short of an explicit edict from Cryptic Studios to include them, CLOWN will not appear in another published Champions book unless Steve resigns or dies. ;)

[Lord Liaden]

Didnt read the whole thread <Sorry!>

But I would love to see the Zodiac conspiracy updated :)

For my part, apology accepted. It is pretty lengthy. :)

Unfortunately, Hero Games doesn't own the rights to Doug Shuler's Zodiac group, so they won't be republished in the foreseeable future.

[JmOz]

Regarding Zodiac: Nothing stops them from making a new group based on the signs:

[Lord Liaden]

Never said it did. :) But as Keldon's request was for the "Zodiac conspiracy," I wanted to clarify that that particular group/adventure is off the table.

[Deadborder]

So with that being said, where does that leave Professor Muerte? I've heard that DOJ (or Cryptic) no longer own the rights to the character.

Also, there's the bizzare matter of Floodgate in CO...

[Lord Liaden]

I can assert definitively that Hero Games, and therefore now Cryptic Studios, owns the rights to Professor Muerte; because they gave me permission to update the character for issue #44 of their electronic magazine, Digital Hero.

Now, whether that or any other version of Muerte appears in Champions Online is really up to Cryptic, because Steve Long has written he has no desire to bring him back.

[Keldon]

Never said it did. :) But as Keldon's request was for the "Zodiac conspiracy," I wanted to clarify that that particular group/adventure is off the table.

Oh no!

Guess I will have dig up the old books and convert them, Hero designer should make my life easier :D

[megaplayboy]

I can assert definitively that Hero Games, and therefore now Cryptic Studios, owns the rights to Professor Muerte; because they gave me permission to update the character for issue #44 of their electronic magazine, Digital Hero.

Now, whether that or any other version of Muerte appears in Champions Online is really up to Cryptic, because Steve Long has written he has no desire to bring him back.

He always seemed like a "Destroyer-lite" for new heroes to tangle with.

[Lord Liaden]

Which sort-of redundancy I think is one reason why Steve didn't want to use him again (plenty of other distinctive "second tier" master villains in the current CU), and what I tried to get away from in my reboot of the character.

Sadly, with Shadow Destroyer in continuity, my Muerte could once again be seen as "Destroyer lite." :(

(But maybe we should stop derailing Steve's WDYWTS thread.) :o

[PhantomGM6101]

How about a Female Mastermind?
Why should Istava V'ahn be the only female mastermind in the New CU?

[mattingly]

Professor Muerte always seemed like a "Destroyer-lite" for new heroes to tangle with.
I always preferred using him instead of Dr. D. What's scarier -- a megavillain, or a megavillain fanboy?

[Lord Liaden]

How about a Female Mastermind?
Why should Istava V'ahn be the only female mastermind in the New CU?

Well, Gravitar is officially classified as a "master villain." She hasn't been very subtly "mastermind" about it, but there are implications she's learning. The Duchess could certainly be used as a mastermind within the envelope of VIPER; and Brangomar the Shadow Queen qualifies, within slightly limited parameters.

[Lord Liaden]

I always preferred using him instead of Dr. D. What's scarier -- a megavillain, or a megavillain fanboy?

To the megavillain? Definitely the fanboy. :eg:

[Deadborder]

On the other hand', it means I'm now free to unleash Zombie Clone Professor Muerte! Buahaha!

[casualplayer]

When I used Professor Muerte, one of my super team so often frustrated and humiliated him that he subjected himself to both the Feur and Giganto procedure to give himself the power to get his revenge. Lots of power but couldn't stand on anything but specially treated floor panels without slagging the ground beneath him. One sacrifice throw later and Muerte was headed for the center of the planet.

[mattingly]

Professor Muerte subjected himself to both the Feur and Giganto procedure
A superskrull Muerte? Awesome idea.

[kahuna's bro]

the 3 ms of evil champions style

[Sphinx Magoo]

How about a Advance Villian Handbook section (expanding on whats in the Champions book) with ideas on buliding and running different types of villians.

This is an excellent idea.

Finding ways to make villains interesting seems hard lately, especially when, if looking for recent examples from The Big 2 for plot and story ideas, the villains seem spawned from The Dark Age of comics and don't seem to cover the wide variety seen in previous editions of Champions. Previous editions seemed to have been influenced by the Silver and Bronze Ages, so it'd be great to have some guides to reflect that. Some recent comics seem to offer more hyper-violence as examples of villainy; it'd be nice to offer alternates to that style of story-telling.

[Sphinx Magoo]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, either in this thread or in one of the other sourcebooks, but might there be alternate rules for setting up a Thieves' Guild setup for a modern or superhero setting?

I even came across this article, almost by happenstance, while I was looking for something else: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeirdTradeUnion

The article even mentions the old Serpent Society with its guaranteed salaries, medical benefits and such. I also recall an old issue of G.I.Joe where COBRA forces were cheering over getting better benefits. Plus, with the recent re-formation of the Secret Society of Super-Villains, I always wondered what sort of benefits Luthor offered to keep people loyal (other than not being killed, that is!).

Not sure if an article like this would have a place in CHAMPIONS VILLAINS... Something like it wouldn't have been out of place in the old Adventurer's Club magazine. It could be explored as a Forum thread, but it'd be quickly lost over time and hard to find. Still, just a thought...

[IndianaJoe3]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, either in this thread or in one of the other sourcebooks, but might there be alternate rules for setting up a Thieves' Guild setup for a modern or superhero setting?

Well, the modern equivalent of the Thieves' Guild would be organized crime. In a high-powered setting, this would be VIPER (which has 4e and 5e sourcebooks) or similar. In Dark Champions or Pulp Hero, this would be the Mafia or other gangs.

[Grimble]

Grimble, you may not be aware that Steve Long has made his feelings about CLOWN clear in more than one post. (I.e. a solo comic relief villain like Foxbat is fine; a whole team of them is overkill IHO.) I feel very confident in saying that short of an explicit edict from Cryptic Studios to include them, CLOWN will not appear in another published Champions book unless Steve resigns or dies. ;)

I am aware of Mr. Longs ill will towards C.L.O.W.N. I do feel I should tell you who *I*really want to see revamped. I guess I'll have to write up the 6th Ed versions of the Criminal Legion of Wacky Nonconfomists on my own.

[Escafarc]

I am aware of Mr. Longs ill will towards C.L.O.W.N. I do feel I should tell you who *I*really want to see revamped. I guess I'll have to write up the 6th Ed versions of the Criminal Legion of Wacky Nonconfomists on my own.

I'm with you on C.L.O.W.N.. It was my 2nd favorite supplement behind The Great Supervillian Contest. Both should be updated to 6E.

[Hugh Neilson]

I wouldn't mind a CLOWN update provided the objective was to provide a group of characters, and GM tips and scenarios, for light hearted super hero adventures. The problem with CLOWN was that they were too easily rendered into an exercise in humiliating the chartacters and frustrating the players. A group of a dozen light-hearted villains should not need, or have, half of their number possessing powers that force the heroes to do silly or whimsical things against their will. They should possess abilities which allow them to be sillly and whimsical, with the heroes reacting as they see fit.

[Steve Long]

The problem with CLOWN was that they were too easily rendered into an exercise in humiliating the chartacters and frustrating the players. A group of a dozen light-hearted villains should not need, or have, half of their number possessing powers that force the heroes to do silly or whimsical things against their will. They should possess abilities which allow them to be sillly and whimsical, with the heroes reacting as they see fit.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, though that's not my main objection to CLOWN.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I wouldn't mind a CLOWN update provided the objective was to provide a group of characters, and GM tips and scenarios, for light hearted super hero adventures. The problem with CLOWN was that they were too easily rendered into an exercise in humiliating the chartacters and frustrating the players. A group of a dozen light-hearted villains should not need, or have, half of their number possessing powers that force the heroes to do silly or whimsical things against their will. They should possess abilities which allow them to be sillly and whimsical, with the heroes reacting as they see fit.

Well...most players won't play along in these types of scenarios(silly and whimsical as you put it). They tend to treat them like standard bad guys and beat the snot out of them...which defeats the point of this "flavor" of bad guy...if you ask me.

[megaplayboy]

Well...most players won't play along in these types of scenarios(silly and whimsical as you put it). They tend to treat them like standard bad guys and beat the snot out of them...which defeats the point of this "flavor" of bad guy...if you ask me.

A Bat-Mite or Mr. Mxylplytk(sic) type villain might work better--say, a mischievous but powerful faerie with a ludicrously large VPP who the players can't easily beat, but have to find a way to foil or trick into meeting the condition that banishes him back home.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

A Bat-Mite or Mr. Mxylplytk(sic) type villain might work better--say, a mischievous but powerful faerie with a ludicrously large VPP who the players can't easily beat, but have to find a way to foil or trick into meeting the condition that banishes him back home.

Ah yes....definitely agree here. I liked when Mr. M showed up on the Super Friends cartoons...though he wasn't all that whimsical on them...to be honest.

[Peregrine]

A Bat-Mite or Mr. Mxylplytk(sic) type villain might work better--say, a mischievous but powerful faerie with a ludicrously large VPP who the players can't easily beat, but have to find a way to foil or trick into meeting the condition that banishes him back home.

As long as the focus of the scenario isn't "humiliate the PCs, directly or indirectly, until they find the One True Solution to the puzzle". Each half of that statement is bad GMing; put together... well, lets just be reminded that two wrongs never make a right.

[Steve Long]

A Bat-Mite or Mr. Mxylplytk(sic) type villain might work better--say, a mischievous but powerful faerie with a ludicrously large VPP who the players can't easily beat, but have to find a way to foil or trick into meeting the condition that banishes him back home.

AAMOF, I've always thought the CU lacked such a villain... and I'll be correcting that oversight in CV3. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

Well...most players won't play along in these types of scenarios(silly and whimsical as you put it). They tend to treat them like standard bad guys and beat the snot out of them...which defeats the point of this "flavor" of bad guy...if you ask me.

Are the players interested in these types of scenarios? If so, then the players should reasonably play along. If not, then why is the GM railroading them into such a scenario? The game is about what all the players, GM included, want, not just about what the GM wants. If the players do not want to play a game with silly/whimsical villains (or choose your own adjectives) and scenarios, then they are not likely to react well, or play along with, such scenarios. Similarly, some players like a game that is morally clear-cut black & white, and we would not suggest the GM place their CVK characters in a "kill one for the good of all" scenario.


If the GM wants the game to be more lighthearted in tone, that should be discussed with the players, not forced on them over their bitter protests.

[BobGreenwade]

AAMOF, I've always thought the CU lacked such a villain... and I'll be correcting that oversight in CV3. ;)Hopefully one will be able to find the key to his defeat by consulting the Jocunomicron. ;)

[Log-Man]

Beware the mischief of Gnolevets!

:D

[Dr. MID-Nite]

AAMOF, I've always thought the CU lacked such a villain... and I'll be correcting that oversight in CV3. ;)

That should be interesting. Who said inspiration never comes from the boards?

[Steve Long]

Who said inspiration never comes from the boards?

I would never say that, because it often does. But that wasn't where I got the idea for this particular character; keep in mind that I had to outline Champions Villains and decide who went into each book months ago. I've had this guy (the Incubus, he's called) in mind for quite a while, just waiting to unleash him upon y'all. :eg:

[Lawnmower Boy]

Awww. I wanted to be inspiring.

[Escafarc]

Awww. I wanted to be inspiring.

It would help if you put your pants back onhttp://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Lawnmower Boy]

I thought that was the inspiring part!

[Steve Long]

You wacky kids and your humor.

[jms1973]

I hope that I'm not repeating an already asked question. Are there going to be preview sections of the various 6E books like there were for 5E. I really hope so because that's how I made up my mind on whether or not to buy six or seven of the 5E books.

[torchwolf]

I hope that I'm not repeating an already asked question. Are there going to be preview sections of the various 6E books like there were for 5E. I really hope so because that's how I made up my mind on whether or not to buy six or seven of the 5E books.
It has already begun... :)

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/81436-CHAMPIONS-VILLAINS-Sneak-Peek-1-The-Triptych-Cover!

[Matt the Bruins]

I'm not currently running a Champions game, but if and when I do the temptation to have the Trickster manifest to characters via the Ojibwe spirit Nanabozho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanabozho) at some point will be irresistible. I want to see how players react when they meet Br'er Rabbit. (Or play out Doctor Destroyer's reaction to Bugs Bunny appearing and greeting him in customary fashion! :D)

[Lord Liaden]

Steve Long has mentioned in Hero chat that one of the new solo villains he's introducing in Vol. III will be Incubus, the CU's homage to Mr. Mxyzptlk. :sneaky:

[Steve Long]

All right, folx, Champions Villains is all done! 320 villains in three volumes, all cooked to perfection with a port wine reduction glaze and a side order of Evil. :eg: Thanx very much for your suggestions, and I hope you enjoy the books! CV1 has been sent to the printer, and CV2 will start layout soonly. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

All right, folx, Champions Villains is all done! 320 villains in three volumes, all cooked to perfection with a port wine reduction glaze and a side order of Evil. :eg:And here I thought it would be the heroes' geese that would be cooked....
Thanx very much for your suggestions, and I hope you enjoy the books! CV1 has been sent to the printer, and CV2 will start layout soonly. ;)You're welcome. I hope I actually said something useful this time! ;)

[megaplayboy]

Can't wait for the PDF of CV1 to become available in the online store! :D

[megaplayboy]

Can't wait for the PDF of CV1 to become available in the online store! :D
Speaking of which...if the layouts are done for CV1 and it's already been approved by Cryptic and sent to the printers(to be published in physical form in 2-3 weeks), how much earlier than that will the pdf become available? I find myself rather...eager...to read it. :)

[wcw43921]

Steve Long has mentioned in Hero chat that one of the new solo villains he's introducing in Vol. III will be Incubus, the CU's homage to Mr. Mxyzptlk. :sneaky:

Hmm. It is my understanding that an incubus is a male sex demon, the masculine form of a succubus. Which would make it basically a rapist demon, or at best a seduction demon, the kind who would seduce a woman, get her drunk then post nude pictures of her online. That does not say "light-hearted fun" to me or anyone else with a conscience.

Just what is the story behind the CU's Incubus?

[Lord Liaden]

Hmm. It is my understanding that an incubus is a male sex demon, the masculine form of a succubus. Which would make it basically a rapist demon, or at best a seduction demon, the kind who would seduce a woman, get her drunk then post nude pictures of her online. That does not say "light-hearted fun" to me or anyone else with a conscience.

Just what is the story behind the CU's Incubus?

When I asked Steve during the chat if Incubus was a demon, his response, as closely as I can recall, was: "Yes, no, and sort of. You'll have to read his origin. I just thought 'Incubus' sounded like a cool name for a character." That's the extent of the info I have.