"Wee Folk", traditional or furry

[SSgt Baloo]

There're a few genres that require little people, but there's some overlap. How do you adjust your game when the main characters are small, like leprechauns, pixies, elves (the little ones, not those hyperthyroid ones from D&D), rats from Nimh, or stand-ins for opressed minorities coming to America (American Tail anyone?). What if there's a secret civilization of animals that lives in the shadows of humanity? What if giant creatures moved to Earth, and viewed humanity as vermin? Pets? Delicacies?

Pick something that appeals to you and run with it.

[mattingly]

An upcoming three-way battle Big Brawl from me:

Oompa Loompas vs. Fraggles vs. Borrowers.

[Susano]

An upcoming three-way battle Big Brawl from me:

Oompa Loompas vs. Fraggles vs. Borrowers.

O_o

[SSgt Baloo]

It's been a while since I've run anything, but I would expect that if the PCs were intelligent rats or leprechauns (or some other smaller-than-human critter), I would set the campaign norms as usual, with the humans having whatever powers and characteristics best represent their increased size relative to the PC critters/race. In other words, STR 10 represents the usual strength of an athletic baseline creature (with 8 being the nominal average for non-adventurers). I'd give humans more STR to represent their (relatively) huge size, with possibly a lower speed and/or dex to represent that they aren't as light and maneuverable as the baseline critters.

(I'll be back later to elaborate, but I'm about out of time on this [public library] computer.)

[Susano]

I agree. If I were to run MouseGuard in Hero, the mice would be built as regular humans (i.e. 10s and 8s) and then scale weasels, owls, wolves, and the like as akin to dragons and giants and the like.

[dmjalund]

An upcoming three-way battle Big Brawl from me:

Oompa Loompas vs. Fraggles vs. Borrowers. vs Ewoks

[Fearghus]

I agree. If I were to run MouseGuard in Hero, the mice would be built as regular humans (i.e. 10s and 8s) and then scale weasels, owls, wolves, and the like as akin to dragons and giants and the like.

Depends on the situation. When I run fantasy D&D like games halflings and gnomes simply have shrinking with always on, no END, but in the example you pointed out above where EVERYBODY is playing a mouse I agree treat them as normal humans, and give other creatures size powers based on that scale. I think the scale is what matters. Halflings are the size of children so modeling them with the same stats you would model a full sized human with is fine. but a rat or a rabbit is so much smaller than an average human that saying every rat has a STR of 1 or 0 is useless. Scaling everything down give finer control over physical statistics at smaller scales.

[Nevelon]

It's been a while since I've run anything, but I would expect that if the PCs were intelligent rats or leprechauns (or some other smaller-than-human critter), I would set the campaign norms as usual, with the humans having whatever powers and characteristics best represent their increased size relative to the PC critters/race. In other words, STR 10 represents the usual strength of an athletic baseline creature (with 8 being the nominal average for non-adventurers). I'd give humans more STR to represent their (relatively) huge size, with possibly a lower speed and/or dex to represent that they aren't as light and maneuverable as the baseline critters.

(I'll be back later to elaborate, but I'm about out of time on this [public library] computer.)

You might have to redo the strength chart, or make a note that your mouse brick can only lift a mouse sized car and chuck it at the bad guy, not a full sized one.

But it would be easier to do that then to run the whole thing at negative STR and mandatory shrinking.

[SSgt Baloo]

You might have to redo the strength chart, or make a note that your mouse brick can only lift a mouse sized car and chuck it at the bad guy, not a full sized one.

But it would be easier to do that then to run the whole thing at negative STR and mandatory shrinking.

Much larger critters (humans f'rinstance) might have an inherently harder time spotting a small critter (unless for example, it was the lone white mouse on a black tile floor). The time scale and distances would have to be adjusted to a smaller scale, as well. I've been told that the shorter nerve paths between brain and body give faster reaction times to small creatures when compared to larger ones.

Aside from size considerations, what other characteristics might define wee folk of whatever species? What makes leprechauns different from elves besides, presumably, culture? They both make shoes, but do they all? What are pixies and what do they do for a living? Is there such a thing as a Fairy publicist? Gnome accountants? Dwarf stand-up comedians? In a Superheroic world, does the occasional sapient (or non-sapient) animal develop superpowers at the same rate as for humans?

What do you think?

[Susano]

Much larger critters (humans f'rinstance) might have an inherently harder time spotting a small critter (unless for example, it was the lone white mouse on a black tile floor). The time scale and distances would have to be adjusted to a smaller scale, as well. I've been told that the shorter nerve paths between brain and body give faster reaction times to small creatures when compared to larger ones.

Aside from size considerations, what other characteristics might define wee folk of whatever species? What makes leprechauns different from elves besides, presumably, culture? They both make shoes, but do they all? What are pixies and what do they do for a living? Is there such a thing as a Fairy publicist? Gnome accountants? Dwarf stand-up comedians? In a Superheroic world, does the occasional sapient (or non-sapient) animal develop superpowers at the same rate as for humans?

What do you think?

I think a lot of it depend on the parameters you set up for your world. For example, if you're playing Shadowrun, then yes, there are Gnome accountants and Dwarf stand-up comedians. It also depends on which body of myths you intend to adapt, provided you intend to adapt any.

[dsatow]

For mice sized creatures, it easy to adjust the str chart. Change kilograms to grams.

[SSgt Baloo]

Looky what I found! Rodent Weight Standards (http://mypeoplepc.com/members/gpowersjr/backwoodsfarminc/id7.html)

[Escafarc]

Now they have "Wee" Cannons!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxHW-QGMuZ4&feature=player_embedded

[McCoy]

Rodent Weight Standards (http://mypeoplepc.com/members/gpowersjr/backwoodsfarminc/id7.html)
Part of me wonders about their target demographic, who would buy live rodents by the pound? Part of me thinks I already know. Most of me does not want to know.

[Escafarc]

Part of me wonders about their target demographic, who would buy live rodents by the pound? Part of me thinks I already know. Most of me does not want to know.

Our Reptillian Overlords must be kept sated or they'll be very unhappy with ushttp://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/icon17.gif

[McCoy]

Part of me wonders about their target demographic, who would buy live rodents by the pound? Part of me thinks I already know. Most of me does not want to know.


Our Reptillian Overlords must be kept sated or they'll be very unhappy with ushttp://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/icon17.gif
What part of "Most of me does not want to know" was unclear?

[Chimera 12]

Warning: Heresy ahead.

...still here? Okay...

I'm not convinced I'd use the Hero System for this kind of game at all. That's mainly because I've recently come to the conclusion that, oddly for a system that includes growth and shrinking powers by default, Hero doesn't handle scales other than the standard human one at all well. For a very basic example, by the rules as written two giants whaling on each other will hit each other nearly all the time (because of the OCV bonus all attackers get against them -- including other giants), while in the same situation two leprechauns will barely be able to connect with each other at all. Think about that for a moment. Also, distance, area, mass, damage...all these things are by and large defined with human-scale characters in mind and go increasingly out of whack the further away you get from that. An ant-sized sorcerer pays exactly the same number of points for a 4m radius fireball spell as a human, completely ignoring the fact that for somebody like him that kind of attack should be a genuine weapon of mass destruction. A dragon, meanwhile, might well wonder why that sort of thing is even considered an area of effect attack at all...

In a more loosely defined and rules-light system I believe I could fix that, or at least handwave the situations as they come up. With Hero, I thus far haven't even begun to figure out how. And thus, I honestly can't say I'd see much point in using it for a "little people" game. :(

[Susano]

Warning: Heresy ahead.

...still here? Okay...

I'm not convinced I'd use the Hero System for this kind of game at all. That's mainly because I've recently come to the conclusion that, oddly for a system that includes growth and shrinking powers by default, Hero doesn't handle scales other than the standard human one at all well. For a very basic example, by the rules as written two giants whaling on each other will hit each other nearly all the time (because of the OCV bonus all attackers get against them -- including other giants), while in the same situation two leprechauns will barely be able to connect with each other at all. Think about that for a moment. Also, distance, area, mass, damage...all these things are by and large defined with human-scale characters in mind and go increasingly out of whack the further away you get from that. An ant-sized sorcerer pays exactly the same number of points for a 4m radius fireball spell as a human, completely ignoring the fact that for somebody like him that kind of attack should be a genuine weapon of mass destruction. A dragon, meanwhile, might well wonder why that sort of thing is even considered an area of effect attack at all...

In a more loosely defined and rules-light system I believe I could fix that, or at least handwave the situations as they come up. With Hero, I thus far haven't even begun to figure out how. And thus, I honestly can't say I'd see much point in using it for a "little people" game. :(

I do believe there is a caveat that you can (and should) adjust the OCV bonuses and minuses when the characters are of similar size.

[dmjalund]

I would play characters over a certain size, to suffer from range penalty for HtoH - even when at zero range (explaining why a giant trying to swat a smaller opponent has a harder time)

[Lucius]

Warning: Heresy ahead.

...still here? Okay...

I'm not convinced I'd use the Hero System for this kind of game at all. That's mainly because I've recently come to the conclusion that, oddly for a system that includes growth and shrinking powers by default, Hero doesn't handle scales other than the standard human one at all well. For a very basic example, by the rules as written two giants whaling on each other will hit each other nearly all the time (because of the OCV bonus all attackers get against them -- including other giants), while in the same situation two leprechauns will barely be able to connect with each other at all. Think about that for a moment. Also, distance, area, mass, damage...all these things are by and large defined with human-scale characters in mind and go increasingly out of whack the further away you get from that. An ant-sized sorcerer pays exactly the same number of points for a 4m radius fireball spell as a human, completely ignoring the fact that for somebody like him that kind of attack should be a genuine weapon of mass destruction. A dragon, meanwhile, might well wonder why that sort of thing is even considered an area of effect attack at all...

In a more loosely defined and rules-light system I believe I could fix that, or at least handwave the situations as they come up. With Hero, I thus far haven't even begun to figure out how. And thus, I honestly can't say I'd see much point in using it for a "little people" game. :(

Actually, the solution is pretty simple.

If you're going to have a "little people" game where most people will be, say, rodent sized, you redefine that as the norm. The standard character starts at, say, 10 cm instead of 200, and needs Growth or Shrinking to change from there. Redefine how much weight STR 10 lifts. Redefine the range and area scales to fit the campaign reality; Area Effect starts at 5 or 10 cm instead of 100.

"Normal Humans" become giants with very high STR and probably low CV, or some severe penalties for hitting the player characters.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary asks what happens if you put Megascale on Shrinking

[Chimera 12]

Actually, the solution is pretty simple.

If you're going to have a "little people" game where most people will be, say, rodent sized, you redefine that as the norm. The standard character starts at, say, 10 cm instead of 200, and needs Growth or Shrinking to change from there. Redefine how much weight STR 10 lifts. Redefine the range and area scales to fit the campaign reality; Area Effect starts at 5 or 10 cm instead of 100.

"Normal Humans" become giants with very high STR and probably low CV, or some severe penalties for hitting the player characters.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary asks what happens if you put Megascale on Shrinking
That's really more of a workaround than a true fix, though. All you need is a hypothetical game where PCs -- or even just friendly NPCs -- can be either "little people" or normal humans (not a hard setup to imagine, really) and you're essentially back to square one because there's no convenient One True Default Scale any more.

[Chimera 12]

I do believe there is a caveat that you can (and should) adjust the OCV bonuses and minuses when the characters are of similar size.

If you think you could cite that one, please do. (To be honest, I've thought about applying appropriate OCV bonuses and penalties to the size templates myself already -- just enough to effectively cancel out the defensive bonus or penalty resulting from the character's own scale so that two pixies or two giants fight each other much the same as two humans would. It would be a far cry from addressing the whole issue, but it'd be a start.)

[Susano]

If you think you could cite that one, please do. (To be honest, I've thought about applying appropriate OCV bonuses and penalties to the size templates myself already -- just enough to effectively cancel out the defensive bonus or penalty resulting from the character's own scale so that two pixies or two giants fight each other much the same as two humans would. It would be a far cry from addressing the whole issue, but it'd be a start.)

It's been removed form 6E. Per 6E1 160

"For ease of game play, these modifiers apply regardless of relative size; for example, the DCV bonus for a character one foot tall is the same regardless of whether he’s being attacked by someone who’s human sized, an inch tall, or any other size."

I disagree with this, since before 6E I clearly recall comments made about adjusting the (then) DCV bonuses/minuses to account for the relative size of two opponents.

[SSgt Baloo]

Part of me wonders about their target demographic, who would buy live rodents by the pound? Part of me thinks I already know. Most of me does not want to know.

I didn't think too deeply on that myself, and some small, innocent part of my brain insists that they're just trying to find good homes for all of them. :whistle:

It's nice that there is now some discussion of scaling the system to suit the genre, when the genre calls for "standard-sized" to be something other than human-sized.

There should be some discussion on how smaller animals have better strength-to-weight ratios than bigger ones. Rats and mice can, on average, leap more body-lengths than, say, humans, buffalo, or rhinocerii.

Experts disagree even for jumping species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadow_jumping_mouse#Behavior), but in some genres (Chip and Dale's Rescue Rangers, f'rinstance) most jumping, etc., is "to scale", that is to say, if you ignore the fact that they're rats, mice and/or chipmunks, their abilities are similar to a human at human scale. Therefore grappling hooks made from safety pins are necessary, in most cases, to scale tables and other furniture.