Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

[megaplayboy]

The discussion about comic book supergeniuses who somehow barely affect the overall tech level of the world at large got me thinking about some of the tropes/conventions/premises of comic book universes (as depicted in a typical Marvel/DC book) that seem insupportable on closer inspection:
1. Nothing the heroes do will alter the general status quo very much--Reed Richards can create FTL drives, artificial intelligence devices, limitless power supplies, and none of it will ever filter down to the guy in the street or have much impact on his job or his personal life. The world can repeatedly make contact with alien empires capable of laying the planet to waste or invading at any time, and it has little to no impact on international relations or how people see themselves in relation to people in other countries. Even when the world does seem to change, or react, it tends to "reset to default" within 6-24 issues or so.
2. Nobody who's an adult will ever age more than 10 years, and those who start as kids will age at an incredibly varied rate--Johnny Storm and Peter Parker, if they aged with their titles, would be about to collect Social Security in the next couple years. Aunt May, if she was still alive, would be one of the oldest humans on the planet. Franklin Richards would be in his early 40s. Now, if it were simply a matter of retconning everything perpetually, so that stuff that happened in the 60s now happened just 10-15 years ago, maybe that would be tolerable. But then they seem to reference that stuff as if it still did happen in the 60s! I don't think Frank Castle has been retconned as a vet of some war other than Vietnam...yet. And he's not superhuman in any way, so he should be pushing 70 by now. Boy, he sure looks good for his age.
3. The existence of superhumans, magic, aliens, artificial intelligences, other dimensions, etc. has little to no impact on peoples' belief systems--whether they're an atheist, monotheist, or what have you, seeing some guy calling himself a god while controlling the weather, altering the course of rivers, rearranging matter, healing people with a gesture, or even altering reality itself has had little effect on any organized religion or prominent unbeliever. A little bit hard to swallow, methinks.
4. The Iron Age trope of superhumans going berserk and killing massive numbers of people, or supervillains-gone-berserk and superheroes-gone-vigilante playing a horrific game of "can you top this?"--most supervillains are in the business of personal gain, and most heroes are doing what they do for some reason that's at least vaguely heroic, and the natural consequences of that type of storyline would be a bunch of the more coldly rational and pragmatic villains realizing that mass atrocity is extraordinarily bad for business, and the more sane heroes also realizing that these guys bumping off villains are going to get everyone's lives ruined/DNPCs rapetorturemurdered/giant public freakout followed by legions of Sentinels or Kryptonite-powered battlesuited Federal agents rounding everyone up.
5. Saving the world in a very public way will not make you a lot of money or get you laid--astronauts get parades, activists get nobel prizes, war heroes never have to pay for their own beer...but superheroes(most of them, anyway) never enjoy any lasting benefits from SAVING THE WHOLE FRICKIN' WORLD ON TEEVEE! I can see some principled guy like Captain America or Superman declining offers of speaking fees, book deals, and a ludicrously vast collection of phone numbers from hawt chix, but there are a lot of superheroes, and they aren't all as fussy as those guys.

5 more tomorrow...

[wick]

I can think of one comic series that did take the world into account. Watchmen. of course Watchmen is more Science Fiction than Comic. Supergenius tech changed the World. Characters grew old. Dr. Manhattan was used a pawn by the government in the Cold War with Russia and more directly in Vietnam. Ozimandius capitalized on his fame as a superhero for profit (not that it was needed with his genius and business acumen.) The entire Comic series was restricted to a certain timeline so you did not have to worry about real world changes showing up in the Comic.


Of course, this Graphic novel is an exception.

My campaign will certainly touch on many of the issues that you have brought up.

You also forgot to mention, that Biologically speaking, for every useful, extreme mutation, how many mutations should be extremely deleterious. There should be masses of stillborn and malformed babies for every Jean Grey or Scott Summers. And I am not talking about malformed mutants with usefull powers like the Morlocks either.

In the DC universe i am surprised that the US government has not tried to kill/capture/ or control superman or at the very least developed means to do so (please forgive my ignorance of the DC universe if this has been explored.) It may be nice and fine that supes is patriotic and beats up criminals but there are criminal politicians or even if they are honest they may have a policy that supes does not like. Imagine Superman flying around and destroying abortion clinics, and the authorities can do nothing. I don't see even a benevolent Country willing to be powerless against one single "man"

[GoldenAge]

In the DC universe i am surprised that the US government has not tried to kill/capture/ or control superman or at the very least developed means to do so (please forgive my ignorance of the DC universe if this has been explored.) It may be nice and fine that supes is patriotic and beats up criminals but there are criminal politicians or even if they are honest they may have a policy that supes does not like. Imagine Superman flying around and destroying abortion clinics, and the authorities can do nothing. I don't see even a benevolent Country willing to be powerless against one single "man"

During the Superman/Batman storyline "K", it is revealed that [Amanda] Waller has hoarded Kryptonite and used it to power an anti-Superman group called the Last Line, and a Doomsday-like creature codenamed "All-American Boy", who has Kryptonite shards growing out of his body. All-American Boy, (real name: Josh Walker) was deceived into an experiment to use Kryptonite to bond cell scrapings taken from Doomsday to a human host, battles Superman, devastating Smallville in the process. Batman, with the help of Brannon, the Last Line's leader, locate Josh's parents, who convince him to stop. Waller is forced to pay towards repairing Smallville in return for her dealings in the All American Boy project to remain secret.

The Last Line takes its name from the slogan "The Last Line of Defense". The Last Line is a top-secret combat squadron designed for one specific purpose. To combat and defeat Superman. Led by Amanda Waller, the Last Line's primary function was to protect humanity in the event that Superman should ever turn against the United States. The group's membership includes soldiers from all branches of military service including the United States Marine Corps, the U.S. Army, Navy and even the Defense Department. All of the members of the Last Line are outfitted with body armor powered by Kryptonite. For years they have managed to stockpile an immense cache of Kryptonite by drilling from an asteroid just outside of Earth's orbit. When Superman and Batman undertook a quest to rid the Earth of all Kryptonite, they stumbled upon a trail which ultimately led them back to the Last Line's underground bunker. Waller's resourcefulness enabled her to capture and contain Batman, while the Last Line attacked Superman with weapons made of Kryptonite.

[Greywind]

1) Spacing between paragraphs is good!

2) Characters may/may not age appropriately. But when the overall reality depicted does not mesh with OUR in correlation to time passed, how then do you judge appropriate time passage for aging?

Kitty Pryde had two 16th birthdays, became a mature woman and then regressed to late teens.

Marvel, on average, has Christmas once every 5 years real time. You have entire story arcs that may be a day or a week in the story taking over two years to tell in comic format.

[Captain Obvious]

There are several ways to keep time on track in comics. Time can pass as shown in the comic and it becomes disjointed with reality, but as long as brand new tech doesn't pop up in the story, it doesn't matter. Or, the storyline can wrap up and then time passes "off screen" to bring the comics back in line with reality. I've always liked the stories best that wrap up in a single issue, or at most 2 or 3 issues. Most of the on-going "stories" without a distinct beginning and end come off as soap opera in spandex to me.

[Shadow Hawk]

Speaking of old (normal) heroes: You mention Frank Castle (Punisher), a Vietnam Vet. What about Nick Fury, a World War Two Vet? If Frank is pushing 70, then Nick is dragging 90!

[megaplayboy]

Speaking of old (normal) heroes: You mention Frank Castle (Punisher), a Vietnam Vet. What about Nick Fury, a World War Two Vet? If Frank is pushing 70, then Nick is dragging 90!

Fury takes the Infinity Formula or somesuch, which retards his aging.

[Shadow Hawk]

Fury takes the Infinity Formula or somesuch, which retards his aging.

I had forgotten.

Which, amazingly enough, isn't available at any price on the black market (linking to point one).

[SSgt Baloo]

3. The existence of superhumans, magic, aliens, artificial intelligences, other dimensions, etc. has little to no impact on peoples' belief systems--whether they're an atheist, monotheist, or what have you, seeing some guy calling himself a god while controlling the weather, altering the course of rivers, rearranging matter, healing people with a gesture, or even altering reality itself has had little effect on any organized religion or prominent unbeliever. A little bit hard to swallow, methinks.

A Rabbi once explained that if a voice from the heavens claimed to be G-d, but commanded you to do something contrary to Torah, then it wasn't G-d. I think most people who aren't prepared to abandon their cherished beliefs will not abandon them just because some guy in spandex claims divinity. It's equally (of not more) likely that the god-in-spandex suffers from delusions of grandeur. People who think they possess power tend to exaggerate the importance of this fact, regardless of the actual amount of power they possess.

[Captain Obvious]

A Rabbi once explained that if a voice from the heavens claimed to be G-d, but commanded you to do something contrary to Torah, then it wasn't G-d. I think most people who aren't prepared to abandon their cherished beliefs will not abandon them just because some guy in spandex claims divinity. It's equally (of not more) likely that the god-in-spandex suffers from delusions of grandeur. People who think they possess power tend to exaggerate the importance of this fact, regardless of the actual amount of power they possess.

At the same time, you'd think there'd be plenty of people willing to do the bidding of these guys in spandex claiming to be gods. I mean, seriously, there are some crazy cults out there in the real world, and their leaders can't shrug off gunfire or call down lightning from the heavens. I'm surprised the comics don't have a bunch of vigilante Thor cultists out there taking on street crime with hammers.

[Egyptoid]

World-Spanning magic threats that completely bind all of the X-Men's hands,
and no-one has Stephen Strange on speed-dial.

[Captain Obvious]

Oh yeah, and back on an earlier subtopic...it occurred to me that if Marvel had allowed comic time to come unhitched from real time, that it would probably be mid-1970s or so in Fantastic Four, and Reed Richards could have iphone clones on the market. It would be the best of both worlds...real world tech can show up disjointed comic time, and the high-tech inventors can have an effect on the world.

[Enforcer84]

I had forgotten.

Which, amazingly enough, isn't available at any price on the black market (linking to point one).

Ditto Black Widow these days.

[megaplayboy]

A Rabbi once explained that if a voice from the heavens claimed to be G-d, but commanded you to do something contrary to Torah, then it wasn't G-d. I think most people who aren't prepared to abandon their cherished beliefs will not abandon them just because some guy in spandex claims divinity. It's equally (of not more) likely that the god-in-spandex suffers from delusions of grandeur. People who think they possess power tend to exaggerate the importance of this fact, regardless of the actual amount of power they possess.

True, though I'd forgotten to note the most famous superhero in all of comicdom died very publicly and then later returned from the dead. There are also demons and angels running around...

[Greywind]

Ditto Black Widow these days.
This is true. You'll never find the Black Widow for sale on the black market...

[Jhamin]

I had forgotten.

Which, amazingly enough, isn't available at any price on the black market (linking to point one).

And the only person to use it is a soldier, not a scientific Genius, a politician, or a captain of industry.

I mean really, if Ronald Regan could have lived forever how many people would have gone along with it? Or if Warren Buffet decided to fund 5 more Nick Furies in exchange for an extended life?

[megaplayboy]

This is true. You'll never find the Black Widow for sale on the black market...

MMM...black market Natalia Romanova clones...:drool:

oh, sorry...what were we talking about?

[Escafarc]

And the only person to use it is a soldier, not a scientific Genius, a politician, or a captain of industry.

I mean really, if Ronald Regan could have lived forever how many people would have gone along with it? Or if Warren Buffet decided to fund 5 more Nick Furies in exchange for an extended life?

If I remember correctly Nick and the Countess were the only two to get the Infinty Formula and the scientist that invented was killed and the formula was lost. But that has most likely been reconned.

[Squall]

I know Frank Castle's aging has been a point of pride from some of his writers -- they've mentioned it in letter columns and stuff, at least, and have gone out of their way to say he IS (supposedly) aging, slowing down a little, etc. I know that "Born" established him as being involved in the closing days of the Vietnam War (not the opening), and he could've been -- I don't know -- twenty or so at the time? So Castle could be in his mid-late fifties, not necessarily sixties, at the moment. It's still a stretch for him to be as fit as he is, mind...but it's not QUITE as silly. There's also the possibility he suffered some minor anti-aging from that (silly and unfortunate) "assassin for the angels" story arc they did several years ago.

[Log-Man]

3. The existence of superhumans, magic, aliens, artificial intelligences, other dimensions, etc. has little to no impact on peoples' belief systems--whether they're an atheist, monotheist, or what have you, seeing some guy calling himself a god while controlling the weather, altering the course of rivers, rearranging matter, healing people with a gesture, or even altering reality itself has had little effect on any organized religion or prominent unbeliever. A little bit hard to swallow, methinks...
Along those same lines, what about all of the people coming back from the dead? That's sure to have a major impact on at least few ideologies.

[Mister E]

The super-punk Marvel 2099 setting had Christianity taking a backseat to the Church of Thor.

[Nuclear Fridge]

:thumbup:
MMM...black market Natalia Romanova clones...:drool:

oh, sorry...what were we talking about?

If Malachite/Teleios were to discreetly market Scarlet Johansson replicants, how much business would he drum up?

[Drhoz]

2. Nobody who's an adult will ever age more than 10 years

One of the reasons I like 2000 AD - Judge Dredd has been aging pretty much in real time in the comic's 37 year history. He's in his 60s now, and even with the future-medicine and rejuve techniques ( and the later was only accepted by Dredd because the Chief Judge ordered him to ) he knows he isn't going to last forever. His replacements are already on the streets


Same with Nikolai Dante - he's certainly got a lot of grey hairs over the run of that story

[Nuclear Fridge]

Given the horrific stresses Dante's been through, grey hairs are only to be expected.
And I may be wrong about this, but I have the feeling that Joe Dredd isn't going to last much longer.

[wick]

On Religion:

Interview with a preacher:

Preacher: So Alien X you are the member of an Alien Race that spans over 100 star systems which is allied with over 2 dozen comparable sized allied star empires?

Alien X: That is correct human.

Preacher: So how many of people would you say believe in God?

Alien X: Which God?

Preacher: uhh... well..you know.. God.

Alien X: As in the one that you yourself worship?

Preacher: Uhh..Yes

Alien X(doing some calculations in his head): A few hundred million but just on one planet.


I think that proof of extraterestrial life will shake the very foundations of Earth's Religions. Heck, there are people who practically worship aliens and UFOs now and have origin of human mythologies the center on an extraterrestrial origin for humans and this is based on wild speculation and conspiracy theory. In comic worlds Aliens should practically have seats at the UN.

As for Gods, mythical beasts, angels, demons etc...if you have a mixture of these that would shake the world too.
Christian: Look at the proof of my God ..(points to an angel fighting a demon over the city)
Skeptic: Yeah but what about them ( points to Hercules fighting Thor) or her (points to Shiva walking down the street destroying everything in her path)

Basically if Angels and Demons are proof than so are these other entities and they at least point out that there are other dieties which would rock Monotheistic religions.

I am not saying truly religious people would throw in the towel but many people who are not very religious would definitely find more reasons not to believe. Polytheistic religions would just expand to encompass more gods much like the Romans did, they felt you should not anger any Gods so venerated all (their main gripe with Christians is that the Christians did not pay respect or homage to the other gods and they felt this would bring doom down on all of their heads.)

[Wanderer]

In the DC universe i am surprised that the US government has not tried to kill/capture/ or control superman or at the very least developed means to do so (please forgive my ignorance of the DC universe if this has been explored.) It may be nice and fine that supes is patriotic and beats up criminals but there are criminal politicians or even if they are honest they may have a policy that supes does not like. Imagine Superman flying around and destroying abortion clinics, and the authorities can do nothing. I don't see even a benevolent Country willing to be powerless against one single "man"

Contingency plans in the case high-powered superhumans turn against humanity may be a sensible thing, but another comic-book trope, quite extant in the Marvel Universe, that deeply annoys my sense of realism is how the "normals" always seem to be to a rabidly bigot horde always ready and eager to break out into grass-roots witch-hunts and follow the most wingnut politicians espousing severe persecutions and crackdowns on the civil rights of superhumans with little provocation. There is something deeply insane and unplausible in a majority eager to harass and persecute a minority that includes plenty of members able to wipe out entire armies of normals and level their cities with little effort.

[Cygnia]

Contingency plans in the case high-powered superhumans turn against humanity may be a sensible thing, but another comic-book trope, quite extant in the Marvel Universe, that deeply annoys my sense of realism is how the "normals" always seem to be to a rabidly bigot horde always ready and eager to break out into grass-roots witch-hunts and follow the most wingnut politicians espousing severe persecutions and crackdowns on the civil rights of superhumans with little provocation. There is something deeply insane and unplausible in a majority eager to harass and persecute a minority that includes plenty of members able to wipe out entire armies of normals and level their cities with little effort.

This, pretty much. I was always wondering why civil rights lawyers weren't having a field day with discrimination suits against mutants (since there's no way one could call being a mutant a "choice"). Then again, the cynic-realist in me had my thoughts take a few ugly turns afterwards...

[megaplayboy]

I'll do the rest one at a time as they occur to me:

6. Rampant exhibitionism. People with beyond-perfect physiques running around in skin-tight/sheer/body-hugging costumes, that in the case of female heroes are barely there. This isn't necessarily an insupportable premise, but that a bunch of people run around in these outfits and generally don't spend significant amounts of time staring at each other, and that non-supers also generally don't gawk for all that much time either, is a bit much. I would go into the whole supers-rarely-get-sexually-assaulted-after-being-KOed, but I do think there's a supportable premise for that, based on my point about the Iron Age above--nobody really wants to go there much, because retaliation would be...severe. But it is still just a tad insupportable to put people in costumes that would qualify them as exhibitionists in the real world, and have the public reaction be muted compared to what it might be in the real world if a taller, bustier Megan Fox walked down the street dressed like a patriotic hooker.

[megaplayboy]

7. Non-insane supervillains who try to make a living by robbing banks and other property crimes. There's a million ways a supervillain could make easy money, and publicly walking into a bank and ripping the door off isn't one of them, because at least half the time a superhero's going to show up to pound the ever-loving crap out of them and hand them over to be thrown into a high-tech metal box. They could do endorsement deals, use their powers in some form of gainful employment, be a paid research subject, be the head of a crime syndicate (or, heck, shake down a local organized crime crew for money), move to a third world country and be hired muscle for the local dictator(or become the local dictator), join an "unlimited class pro wrestling" league, etc.
I guess this goes along with "Why doesn't Batman just pay Penguin 10 million dollars a year to stay out of trouble?"

8. Insane and murderous supervillains who don't actually ever get sent to prison but are instead carted off to an asylum. Wow, the insanity defense must be a really permissive one in the DCU, because in the real world, almost all of the people at Arkham would actually be in a supermax prison, or on death row. Most of them know what they do is wrong, and some are actually capable of conforming their behavior at least temporarily. I'd love to see a storyline where a 3rd tier bat-villain goes on a killing spree in another country, and after Bats beats him up, the local authorities show up and say, "Thanks, Caped Crusader, don't worry, we'll take it from here. Our justice system is fair, but swift, and no doubt within 2 weeks this villain will face a firing squad. We couldn't have brought him to final justice without your help, so you'll be given full credit at his execution! Our nation is in your debt!"

[Squall]

I'll do the rest one at a time as they occur to me:

6. Rampant exhibitionism. People with beyond-perfect physiques running around in skin-tight/sheer/body-hugging costumes, that in the case of female heroes are barely there. This isn't necessarily an insupportable premise, but that a bunch of people run around in these outfits and generally don't spend significant amounts of time staring at each other, and that non-supers also generally don't gawk for all that much time either, is a bit much. I would go into the whole supers-rarely-get-sexually-assaulted-after-being-KOed, but I do think there's a supportable premise for that, based on my point about the Iron Age above--nobody really wants to go there much, because retaliation would be...severe. But it is still just a tad insupportable to put people in costumes that would qualify them as exhibitionists in the real world, and have the public reaction be muted compared to what it might be in the real world if a taller, bustier Megan Fox walked down the street dressed like a patriotic hooker.
I know that's one that's been tackled by the DC universe, at least a little bit. Hitman has shown a share of "everyday" types with running gags about Power Girl and Wonder Woman (Tommy himself went to the JLA satellite once, just to use his x-ray vision on Wonder Woman to brag to his buddies about it), so the precedent is certainly there that day-to-day working schmucks, blue collar everymen, certainly notice the amazingly top-heavy superwomen running around. Power Girl, especially, is well known in-universe for her...uhh...unique build.

In Outsiders (given the roster holding Arsenal and Grace, at least for a while) casual superhero-community sex came up a few times -- Grace even mentioned Plastic Man, once -- early in the series. Dick scowled at Roy for being a hound, once, and asked if there was anyone he wouldn't sleep with; Roy's response was "Among the Amazon-built goddesses we hang out with, wearing spandex? Nope!" (or words to that effect).

In at least one other instance I can think of, when the team's ship was destroyed and they were stuck taking a civilian ferry back to the mainland from Alcatraz, several of the gals in their torn-and-tattered superheroine outfits were getting oggled by a nearby tourist with a video camera.

In the most recent run of...crap. Seven Soldiers of Victory, or maybe just Seven Soldiers (don't remember the title for sure), one of the characters, Bulleteer, specifically got her metahuman powers from her husband being a superhero fetishist. He was a physicist and superheroine porno fiend, who cooked up a concoction to give them metallic skin that granted invulnerability and super strength, because he wanted to live out his fantasies about Sally Sonic, a metahuman porno star, and blah blah blah, all very Iron Age-ish. While it's kind of a lame hook for a character, it stands as proof that the fantastic physiques and skimpy outerwear of your average metahuman isn't going unnoticed, particularly in the internet age.

And, of course, the rape thing HAS come up (like in Identity Crisis), unfortunate as it was.

It's all come up on the Marvel side a little, recently, too, but especially in their Ultimates Universe.

[Escafarc]

Don't forget the Superman/Big Barda porno. Though I wish I could.

[Nuclear Fridge]

If my memory core works properly, wasn't there a DCU story about how The Joker was up for the death penalty...
...but Batman decided that Big Scary Grin didn't deserve to be executed for all the gruesome murders he'd committed over the years.
Of course, killing off The Joker would have been financially unwise for DC, but the whole business of Bats getting all "Oh my Gawd!!" over a
psychotic killer's legal plight just stank!

[Log-Man]

If my memory core works properly, wasn't there a DCU story about how The Joker was up for the death penalty...
...but Batman decided that Big Scary Grin didn't deserve to be executed for all the gruesome murders he'd committed over the years.
Of course, killing off The Joker would have been financially unwise for DC, but the whole business of Bats getting all "Oh my Gawd!!" over a
psychotic killer's legal plight just stank!
Actually, Batman defended him because he was not guilty on the one particular count for which he was being executed. It wasn't just saving his life to save his life. If the law correctly and accurately executed The Joker, Batman wouldn't step in the way at all.

[lapsedgamer]

Actually, Batman defended him because he was not guilty on the one particular count for which he was being executed. It wasn't just saving his life to save his life. If the law correctly and accurately executed The Joker, Batman wouldn't step in the way at all.

This is clearly not Frank Miller's Batman we are talking about. Still, it sounds like an interesting premise. Which book, and what issues, was this story in?

[Nuclear Fridge]

It's been quite a while since I could bring myself to buy any DC (the last thing I really liked was the original 12-part release of Watchmen!) :sneaky:

I'm sure, though, that real soon now a lot of people are going to keel over from lethal laughing gas. It's such an original way to make a point... :ugly:

[Captain Obvious]

(their main gripe with Christians is that the Christians did not pay respect or homage to the other gods and they felt this would bring doom down on all of their heads.)

Christians did a lot that squicked out the Romans, starting with worshiping an executed criminal and moving on into their rituals where they ate flesh and drank blood. My (limited) understanding of Latin leads me to believe that the phrase "brotherly love" holds incestuous overtones as well.

[Log-Man]

This is clearly not Frank Miller's Batman we are talking about. Still, it sounds like an interesting premise. Which book, and what issues, was this story in?

I'm pretty sure this was before DKR, but I can't recall exact date or issue. I shall endeavor to find the answer!

EDIT: Wow, I was completely off.

The Devil's Advocate by Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan, 1995

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KV8bCwJqENo/SHqldpZmhkI/AAAAAAAABSM/-dJ0RhCiM20/s400/devils+advocate.JPG

[input.jack]

Im amazed that its never occured to the writers at DC that the simplest explanation for why the Joker still draws breath is that Gotham, whatever state it happens to be in, DOESNT ALLOW CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. That would be SO simple to mention in-world, and it would clear up all of those damnable "Batman is responsible for everything Joker does now" arguements.

[Enforcer84]

Im amazed that its never occured to the writers at DC that the simplest explanation for why the Joker still draws breath is that Gotham, whatever state it happens to be in, DOESNT ALLOW CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. That would be SO simple to mention in-world, and it would clear up all of those damnable "Batman is responsible for everything Joker does now" arguements.

He is. Because Batman is a douche. :yes:

[Greywind]

Jersey...

[Drhoz]

Given the horrific stresses Dante's been through, grey hairs are only to be expected.
And I may be wrong about this, but I have the feeling that Joe Dredd isn't going to last much longer.

You're not wrong re: Dante. Just read the Trial of Vladimir the Conqueror - quite a punch in the guts! Not quite the happy-go-lucky thief anymore, is he?

And the Backlash story arc in Dredd is certainly enthralling - Wagner's lost none of skill with a script, that's for sure

[SKJAM!]

There is a cult in the DCU that worships Superman; they were most active for a couple of years after him coming back from the dead. We haven't seen them for a long time, though.

[megaplayboy]

9. Changing alignment alters your power level. Whenever Magneto becomes an X-man, his power level drops considerably. When he goes back to being a solo bad guy, he's messing with the planet's magnetic field and moving asteroids around again. Whenever Prof X or some good guy goes bad, their power level rises considerably. I understand why the writer does it(so the bad-guy-turned-good doesn't overshadow the rest of the good guys, and so the good-guy-turned-bad can be a suitably menacing threat to the good guy team), but it's generally an insupportable premise.
9a. Changing writers alters your power level, too, and not always upward. A new writer takes over, and half the time, the character's power level is likely to go way up, or way down, depending on what kind of storylines the writer has in mind.
9b. The "Batman or Batgod?" paradox: In Gotham City, Batman sometimes struggles to put down street thugs, and to figure out what one of his arch-nemeses is up to next. But on the JLA, he's going toe to toe with vastly more powerful opponents, and figuring out incredibly complicated scenarios with Reed Richards-like speed. If "JLA Batman" was fighting street crime, Gotham would be the safest city on the planet within a year. He'd probably be pretty bored, too. If "Gotham City Batman" was helping fight JLA opponents, he'd be injured repeatedly before retiring from crime-fighting within a year. He'd also feel slightly useless.

[Log-Man]

9. Changing alignment alters your power level.
Just like professional wrestling :D

[Mister E]

9. Changing alignment alters your power level. Whenever Magneto becomes an X-man, his power level drops considerably. When he goes back to being a solo bad guy, he's messing with the planet's magnetic field and moving asteroids around again. Whenever Prof X or some good guy goes bad, their power level rises considerably. I understand why the writer does it(so the bad-guy-turned-good doesn't overshadow the rest of the good guys, and so the good-guy-turned-bad can be a suitably menacing threat to the good guy team), but it's generally an insupportable premise.


You are correct. This is a silly premise and it is abused. Still, I'm going to defend it.

First, to clarify the obvious, you're not talking about merely changing alignment. You're talking about characters who seem more powerful when they are bad than when they are good.

My argument is only that this is justified by the good use of restrained power and the bad use of unrestrained power. For instance, it is a policy of good Professor X to not casually violate people with mind control. Nothing but his own sense of morality is stopping him. He is free to do as he wishes. Whereas bad Professor X, knowing it is good to not puppet-master people, will do so for any reason just to power-trip. Self-motivated dissuasion thus presents the appearance only of weakness, and is not actually weak.

In this sense, it is not true that with great power comes great responsibility. Great responsibility depends on great power, but is not necessitated by it. Only with great sensitivity and great will comes great responsibility.

[Squall]

You are correct. This is a silly premise and it is abused. Still, I'm going to defend it.

First, to clarify the obvious, you're not talking about merely changing alignment. You're talking about characters who seem more powerful when they are bad than when they are good.

My argument is only that this is justified by the good use of restrained power and the bad use of unrestrained power. For instance, it is a policy of good Professor X to not casually violate people with mind control. Nothing but his own sense of morality is stopping him. He is free to do as he wishes. Whereas bad Professor X, knowing it is good to not puppet-master people, will do so for any reason just to power-trip. Self-motivated dissuasion thus presents the appearance only of weakness, and is not actually weak.

In this sense, it is not true that with great power comes great responsibility. Great responsibility depends on great power, but is not necessitated by it. Only with great sensitivity and great will comes great responsibility.
The same holds true with other powers, just as well -- even the Magneto example, for instance, can be rationalized not only with ethical concerns on the personal level (manipulating the iron in someone's blood is a mean thing to do, so "good" Magneto doesn't abuse his power), but also on a larger scale, like concerns about disruption the Earth's magnetic field by overusing his powers, messing with atmospheric conditions by bringing Asteroid M into the atmosphere, etc, etc.

An evil Brick is far more likely to use his full strength when fighting an unpowered mook -- the fact that Black Adam uses his strength to gleefully rend mundane folks limb from limb doesn't mean he's physically stronger than Captain Marvel, it just means he uses that full strength where good guys are far more likely to consistently hold back.

A lot of these insupportable premises are ones that have been addressed, in some form or another, in fairly modern comics. The rest of them (like the Joker never being put to death, no matter how many lives he takes), simply come down to "if you kill off iconic bad guys, there's no one left for the good guys to fight in next month's issue" sort of logic.

[Clonus]

Oh yeah, and back on an earlier subtopic...it occurred to me that if Marvel had allowed comic time to come unhitched from real time, that it would probably be mid-1970s or so in Fantastic Four, and Reed Richards could have iphone clones on the market. It would be the best of both worlds...real world tech can show up disjointed comic time, and the high-tech inventors can have an effect on the world.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/52923-The-compressed-timeline?p=1256403#post1256403

[Burrito Boy]

:thumbup:

If Malachite/Teleios were to discreetly market Scarlet Johansson replicants, how much business would he drum up?

I'll take two! :D

[lapsedgamer]

:thumbup:

If Malachite/Teleios were to discreetly market Scarlet Johansson replicants, how much business would he drum up?


I'll take two! :D

Could they also be imprinted with cool fangirl personalities, devotion bordering on obsession, and the ability to cook down home American, Italian, Korean, and Thai food? If so, I'm in.

[megaplayboy]

10th(though any number of other things could go here): the overly resilient, frequently/constantly endangered DNPC. How many times can your girlfriend be kidnapped, beaten up, mind-controlled, nearly killed, turned into a monster, temporarily driven insane, or just biting her nails with worry whenever you disappear for days, before she gives you the "it's not you, it's me" speech? How many times can villains threaten your loved ones before the impulse to make an "object lesson" of one of them finally gets the better of you, and you're spelling out "this is what happens when you mess with people I care about" with their entrails? (yeah, I know it goes against an earlier point somewhat, but I think they're both still valid) And some heroes wind up losing their significant others with alarming frequency. I think "very bad things happen to people who date Tony Stark/Bruce Wayne/etc." would have a damping effect on their social life after a while...

[Chimera 12]

Let's not forget the entire "secret identity" conceit. Let us assume for a moment that costumed figures with more-than-human powers popped up in the real world all of a sudden and proceeded to engage in highly visible acts of heroism, villainy, and all-around grandstanding. How hard could finding out who such lunatics are when not hiding behind a mask really be, assuming sufficient interest (pretty much a given) and a reasonably competent team of investigators(*)? In the face of serious effort, how many superheroes could still expect to remain anonymous, say, about three or four months into their career?

(*) Granted, most comic book universes do seem to suffer from a certain dearth of those. It's probably part of why they need superheroes to help fight crime in the first place...

[Haerandir]

Pff... Investigators are unneccessary. This is what paparazzi do.

[megaplayboy]

Let's not forget the entire "secret identity" conceit. Let us assume for a moment that costumed figures with more-than-human powers popped up in the real world all of a sudden and proceeded to engage in highly visible acts of heroism, villainy, and all-around grandstanding. How hard could finding out who such lunatics are when not hiding behind a mask really be, assuming sufficient interest (pretty much a given) and a reasonably competent team of investigators(*)? In the face of serious effort, how many superheroes could still expect to remain anonymous, say, about three or four months into their career?

(*) Granted, most comic book universes do seem to suffer from a certain dearth of those. It's probably part of why they need superheroes to help fight crime in the first place...

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans, because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.

[Chimera 12]

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans, because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.

It's entirely possible that these kinds of concerns would in fact stop responsible, professional members of the press/government/police/whatever from making too much of a concerted effort. (That said, I'm pretty sure they'd remain curious all the same. Only human nature, after all, and as long as you're not planning to go public with the information, hey...What Could Go Wrong?)

On the other hand, that only leaves everybody else... :eg:

[SSgt Baloo]

I know Frank Castle's aging has been a point of pride from some of his writers -- they've mentioned it in letter columns and stuff, at least, and have gone out of their way to say he IS (supposedly) aging, slowing down a little, etc. I know that "Born" established him as being involved in the closing days of the Vietnam War (not the opening), and he could've been -- I don't know -- twenty or so at the time? So Castle could be in his mid-late fifties, not necessarily sixties, at the moment. It's still a stretch for him to be as fit as he is, mind...but it's not QUITE as silly.

Two Words (proper Nouns, actually): Jack LaLanne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne)

Look closely at the timeline for his feats. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne#Timeline:_Jack_LaLanne.27s_feats)

[Chris Goodwin]

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans, because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.

There's more to it than just the press. The first time a villain is hauled into court and forced to unmask, his defense attorney is going to ask the cops how he was brought in. The cops, being truthful, are going to say "He was apprehended by Mega-Ultra-Guy." The defense attorney is immediately going to call Mega-Ultra-Guy as a witness, and he'll be forced to unmask as well.

[lapsedgamer]

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans, because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.


I think that the concept of secret identity is a little long in the tooth, but I also don't think it means exactly what some people think it means all the time either. Secret identity doesn't mean that absolutely no one knows who you are. It means that the vast majority of people don't know who you are. IIRC, haven't there been multiple story lines at both major publishers about government databases and such. I seem to remember Amanda Waller basically telling Batman on a couple of occasions that she knew who he was. It was just that it wasn't in her interest to divulge the information.

People in the real word live double lives all the time. Think about the guys who marry two or three different women at the same time. How long did it take Tiger Woods's house of cards to collapse, and he is hounded by the media all the time. You have to work to make the secret Id thing palatable to modern audiences, but I'm not sure that it should be eliminated. To me, it's whatever works for the story and is not too jarring.

Also, going after the family or girlfriend is not always the tactic a villain is going to use. Some will, others will not. It depends on what hey think they can get out of it and what motivates them personally. If Captain Extreme was a pain in my a** before, imagine how single-minded he will be after I burn down his house with his family inside. Some villains are just doing business, and the odd prison stretch is part of the job. Now, the true loonies and sadists are another story.

The problem is that if you don't want to go full Iron Age all the time, which gets old, you have to play within certain boundaries set up by the genre. People who break all of the rules just to say they did it, or for shock value, don't always create entertaining stories. I've seen outstanding work by people who draw within the lines with only a few stray marks.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd like to add one, if I may.

Everyone knows that there is an objective difference in physical capability between superhumans and "normals". In some cases this can be explained by a known, physical difference in superhumans and normals, such as the mutant gene or the Wild Card virus. But, especially if superhumans have been around for a long time, it may not be obvious at a glance that a "normal" guy who just happens to be able to lift two tons is an actual superhuman. More to the point, in a world where everyone has heard of people who can fly through the air and lift a hundred tons over their heads, where does the average person on the street believe the line between normal and super is?

[Marcus Impudite]

To paraphrase an old adage: "A villain, once exposed, has refuge only in audacity."

The rub, of course, is that when a person armed with the kind of powers supervillains typically have suddenly becomes "audacious", LOTS (understatement) of people can get hurt or killed. Thus, I imagine there would be no public unmasking of a villain unless the authorities were planning to either a) lock him up and throw away the key or b) sit him down on Old Sparky.

[Clonus]

There's more to it than just the press. The first time a villain is hauled into court and forced to unmask, his defense attorney is going to ask the cops how he was brought in. The cops, being truthful, are going to say "He was apprehended by Mega-Ultra-Guy." The defense attorney is immediately going to call Mega-Ultra-Guy as a witness, and he'll be forced to unmask as well.

How's the defense going to serve the sub poena?

[Clonus]

I'd like to add one, if I may.

Everyone knows that there is an objective difference in physical capability between superhumans and "normals". In some cases this can be explained by a known, physical difference in superhumans and normals, such as the mutant gene or the Wild Card virus. But, especially if superhumans have been around for a long time, it may not be obvious at a glance that a "normal" guy who just happens to be able to lift two tons is an actual superhuman. More to the point, in a world where everyone has heard of people who can fly through the air and lift a hundred tons over their heads, where does the average person on the street believe the line between normal and super is?

Actually we already see that in Marvel Comics with characters like The Ox, and Wilson Fisk. They actually seem to be regarded as on the human side of the superhuman/human divide, but they actually have physical strength that considerably exceeds what is really possible even for really big guys.

[megaplayboy]

How's the defense going to serve the sub poena?

What, you've never heard of the Silver Server?

[martin4frogs]

In response to the unmasking in court thing, they actually touched on that in Ultimate Spider-man. I don't quite recall the issue, but Spidey is confused as to why the Shocker is not locked up. He's certain he's beat the snot out of him and left him for the police an incredible amount of times. It gets explained to him by a lawyer: He's not in jail because he hasn't been arrested properly, if Spidey wants him locked up, he needs to take him to the police himself and make an official report, which would mean unmasking. Otherwise the case gets thrown out of court and he walks.

So, that tends to happen in comics from time to time.

[Clonus]

In response to the unmasking in court thing, they actually touched on that in Ultimate Spider-man. I don't quite recall the issue, but Spidey is confused as to why the Shocker is not locked up. He's certain he's beat the snot out of him and left him for the police an incredible amount of times. It gets explained to him by a lawyer: He's not in jail because he hasn't been arrested properly, if Spidey wants him locked up, he needs to take him to the police himself and make an official report, which would mean unmasking. Otherwise the case gets thrown out of court and he walks.

So, that tends to happen in comics from time to time.


Technically, the way a person is arrested has no bearing on whether his case will get thrown out of court. It could be the case that Spider-Man was the only witness to whatever crime Shocker was committing, in which case lacking physical evidence there would be no basis for filing charges. But if there were bystanders able to testify, that the person who stopped him didn't testify would have no bearing on the validity of the case.

[megaplayboy]

Technically, the way a person is arrested has no bearing on whether his case will get thrown out of court. It could be the case that Spider-Man was the only witness to whatever crime Shocker was committing, in which case lacking physical evidence there would be no basis for filing charges. But if there were bystanders able to testify, that the person who stopped him didn't testify would have no bearing on the validity of the case.

Plus, while I can see that happening in the Ultimate universe, because superheroes are brand new, in the Marvel and DC universe where masked crimefighters have been around for up to 90 years, depending on what current continuity says, I'd think there'd be something worked out as a reliable way for masked heroes to testify. After all, confidential informants and undercover officers do it.

[Clonus]

To paraphrase an old adage: "A villain, once exposed, has refuge only in audacity."

The rub, of course, is that when a person armed with the kind of powers supervillains typically have suddenly becomes "audacious", LOTS (understatement) of people can get hurt or killed. Thus, I imagine there would be no public unmasking of a villain unless the authorities were planning to either a) lock him up and throw away the key or b) sit him down on Old Sparky.

There was some indication in Marvel Comics that they actually had some kind of mask protection law to the effect that masked people could only be unmasked against their will once actually charged with a crime. Captain Stacey once intervened to stop Spider-Man from being unmasked after being arrested, and indicated that it was his right to keep his mask on. But supervillains in both Marvel and DC have no secret identity once charged unless they fabricate a new ID for themselves.

[Cygnia]

The cynic in me wonders just how ungrateful/whiny John Q. Public would be about supers: "violation of rights/due process", "taking away jobs from proper authorities", "[BLEEP]ing bleeding heart liberal cowards who don't finish off the scum when they have the chance", "[BLEEP]ing jackbooted neocons with Dirty Harry power complexes who think they've got the right to play executioner"...

Why yes, I've been exposed to too many idiots posting in the comments section of Yahoo News, how could you tell?

[lapsedgamer]

Technically, the way a person is arrested has no bearing on whether his case will get thrown out of court. It could be the case that Spider-Man was the only witness to whatever crime Shocker was committing, in which case lacking physical evidence there would be no basis for filing charges. But if there were bystanders able to testify, that the person who stopped him didn't testify would have no bearing on the validity of the case.

An attorney might correct me here, but my understanding is that a private citizen making an arrest is treated differently form a trained and deputized officer. A lot of procedural concepts that would tube a case intiated by the police would be passed over if the case was based on the intervention of a citizen. The rules of evidence, specifically small errors in search and seizure and such would not be as highly scrutinized.

Now, the right to face your accuser is another story. I have always assumed that the comics follow the same rules as Steve Long posited in the Champions Universe book on superheroes and the law. Otherwise, a lot of the fun of the stories would be lost.

[Clonus]

An attorney might correct me here, but my understanding is that a private citizen making an arrest is treated differently form a trained and deputized officer. A lot of procedural concepts that would tube a case intiated by the police would be passed over if the case was based on the intervention of a citizen. The rules of evidence, specifically small errors in search and seizure and such would not be as highly scrutinized.

Superheroes rarely gather or provide evidence in the first place. But it is true, that there was a very well-publicized case of a private investigator breaking into someone's place and gathering the evidence against them, and because they were not employed by the police, the evidence was admissable without a warrant.



Now, the right to face your accuser is another story. I have always assumed that the comics follow the same rules as Steve Long posited in the Champions Universe book on superheroes and the law. Otherwise, a lot of the fun of the stories would be lost.

The typical superhero is not the accuser, though. The accuser is the victim. The superhero is just some random loonie who immobilized the perpetrator for the authorities, probably saving the victim in the process. Which brings us to another insupportable premise. Even when a hero has no particular crime finding abilities, isn't it amazing how they manage to stumble across it?

[Shadow Hawk]

The typical superhero is not the accuser, though. The accuser is the victim. The superhero is just some random loonie who immobilized the perpetrator for the authorities, probably saving the victim in the process. Which brings us to another insupportable premise. Even when a hero has no particular crime finding abilities, isn't it amazing how they manage to stumble across it?

Detect Crime, 3 points.

[lapsedgamer]

Detect Crime, 3 points.

Plot Propulsion, 0 points.

[lapsedgamer]

The typical superhero is not the accuser, though. The accuser is the victim. The superhero is just some random loonie who immobilized the perpetrator for the authorities, probably saving the victim in the process. Which brings us to another insupportable premise. Even when a hero has no particular crime finding abilities, isn't it amazing how they manage to stumble across it?

I guess I was thinking more of the situations where the hero is interrupting some big deal in a wharehouse, or uncovering some mass conspiracy. Muggings and bank robberies are a little more straigh forward I suppose. Short of going all Frnak Castle on them, how would the average costumed vigilante really deal with a big RICO case? I know they often just pass the info off to the appropriate officials, but that isn't always the case. I have to admit that I don't read as many comics as I once did. Most of what I've read recently has been more of the high body count sort of book anyway.

[incrdbil]

Duri
The Last Line takes its name from the slogan "The Last Line of Defense". The Last Line is a top-secret combat squadron designed for one specific purpose. To combat and defeat Superman. Led by Amanda Waller, the Last Line's primary function was to protect humanity in the event that Superman should ever turn against the United States. The group's membership includes soldiers from all branches of military service including the United States Marine Corps, the U.S. Army, Navy and even the Defense Department. All of the members of the Last Line are outfitted with body armor powered by Kryptonite. For years they have managed to stockpile an immense cache of Kryptonite by drilling from an asteroid just outside of Earth's orbit. When Superman and Batman undertook a quest to rid the Earth of all Kryptonite, they stumbled upon a trail which ultimately led them back to the Last Line's underground bunker. Waller's resourcefulness enabled her to capture and contain Batman, while the Last Line attacked Superman with weapons made of Kryptonite.

Is it just me, or would everyone else be pleased to see some ordinary schmuck from the DC universe put a bullet in Wallers head?

On topic: I'd love to see a comic where a superhero comes upon a former villian..who is now legit, and does private industary work, making far more money than he ever stole, and living far richer (and with more professional respect) than the superhero.

Your average dumb brick could make a firtune in the construction indutry, the moving industry, salavge. Even better, telekenesis. you coudl be on retainer for so many emergency situations, especially with indirect abilities. Nuclear reactor emergency response, bomb disposal..'street' level villains driven by greed to steal make more sense to me than many super-powered villains.

And as for a telepath..yeesh.

[Wanderer]

I'll do the rest one at a time as they occur to me:

6. Rampant exhibitionism. People with beyond-perfect physiques running around in skin-tight/sheer/body-hugging costumes, that in the case of female heroes are barely there. This isn't necessarily an insupportable premise, but that a bunch of people run around in these outfits and generally don't spend significant amounts of time staring at each other, and that non-supers also generally don't gawk for all that much time either, is a bit much. I would go into the whole supers-rarely-get-sexually-assaulted-after-being-KOed, but I do think there's a supportable premise for that, based on my point about the Iron Age above--nobody really wants to go there much, because retaliation would be...severe. But it is still just a tad insupportable to put people in costumes that would qualify them as exhibitionists in the real world, and have the public reaction be muted compared to what it might be in the real world if a taller, bustier Megan Fox walked down the street dressed like a patriotic hooker.

Hmm, personally, I'm not bothered at all by this comic book trope. I find easy enough to justify the vast majority of superhumans having a perfect body physique and extended youth longevity as positive side effect of activated superhuman genes, and the vast majority of superhuman origins can be rationalized as activated X-genes in one way or another. I also think that if one had a perfect physique, the kind of taste for public exposition that brings one to pick heroism as a career, and such godlike personal power as to scare off disrepect, exibitionism becomes natural.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd say I'm not overly bothered by any of these tropes. Most genres have their own insupportable tropes, and fall apart if you pick away at them enough. I recall overhearing someone in a comic store some years ago note that he "only liked realistic superheroes- like the Punisher". Realistic? How many times has he been shot, had bones broken, etc. yet he is none the worse for wear. No old nagging injuries. Not even scars. He doesn't heal as fast, but he heals jsut as effectively as Wolverine.

Action movies? Try diving through a plate glass window in real life - how does that compare to the typical action movie?

[Nuclear Fridge]

I'd say I'm not overly bothered by any of these tropes. Most genres have their own insupportable tropes, and fall apart if you pick away at them enough. I recall overhearing someone in a comic store some years ago note that he "only liked realistic superheroes- like the Punisher". Realistic? How many times has he been shot, had bones broken, etc. yet he is none the worse for wear. No old nagging injuries. Not even scars. He doesn't heal as fast, but he heals jsut as effectively as Wolverine.


I agree. Even Judge Dredd is slowing down - his last physical exam showed up traces of arthritis. Frank Castle, OTOH... nothing. :ugly:

[Clonus]

I guess I was thinking more of the situations where the hero is interrupting some big deal in a wharehouse, or uncovering some mass conspiracy. Muggings and bank robberies are a little more straigh forward I suppose. Short of going all Frnak Castle on them, how would the average costumed vigilante really deal with a big RICO case? .

Well, Wilson Fisk and Black Mask operate under Spider-Man and Batman's noses for year after year, remaining at large even as their operations are foiled again and again. But if a superhero busts into a warehouse filled with illegal arms or something and incapacitates everyone inside, the police have probable cause to enter (because of the superhero's crime), and grounds to charge the people inside, unless they can come up with a really good explanation for why they were inside a warehouse full of illegal goods.

[Clonus]

Hmm, personally, I'm not bothered at all by this comic book trope. I find easy enough to justify the vast majority of superhumans having a perfect body physique and extended youth longevity as positive side effect of activated superhuman genes, and the vast majority of superhuman origins can be rationalized as activated X-genes in one way or another. I also think that if one had a perfect physique, the kind of taste for public exposition that brings one to pick heroism as a career, and such godlike personal power as to scare off disrepect, exibitionism becomes natural.

Quite apart from that, there are actually practical reasons to wear a skin tight highly flexible costume for any character who moves or flies at high speeds, uses enhanced acrobatics, or has some kind of body sheathing energy shield. For those who don't fit into those categories, the precedent set by others would be sufficient

[novi]

On topic: I'd love to see a comic where a superhero comes upon a former villian..who is now legit, and does private industary work, making far more money than he ever stole, and living far richer (and with more professional respect) than the superhero.

My understanding is that The Penguin has technically gone legit - he now runs a night club and doesn't actually do anything illegal. What his patrons do is another matter altogether.

I also understand that the Riddler has moved on to private investigating.

But yeah, some of the crimes villains do make no sense.

[novi]

Quite apart from that, there are actually practical reasons to wear a skin tight highly flexible costume for any character who moves or flies at high speeds, uses enhanced acrobatics, or has some kind of body sheathing energy shield. For those who don't fit into those categories, the precedent set by others would be sufficient

IIRC, somebody here has mentioned that they worked as a bike messenger, and that wearing a tight costume is in fact very practical for what they do. It's not hard imagine that extending to many supers as well.

My only issue is that everyone seems to have a skin tight costume. Lots of people would go for spandex, but it would be nice to see a few more who don't.

Of course, sometimes idiot artist fail to get the point - I understand that every so often Dust, an Afghani girl on the New Mutants who wears a Burqa, is drawn with the Burqa being rather form-fitting.

[lapsedgamer]

Of course, sometimes idiot artist fail to get the point - I understand that every so often Dust, an Afghani girl on the New Mutants who wears a Burqa, is drawn with the Burqa being rather form-fitting.

There may be two things at work there. Though they seem to be opposite, they are somewhat related in terms of artist's temperaments being on display.

1) Drawing clothing and drapery is kind of hard, especially if you have to do it over and over again and achieve some consistency, as you would if you were trying to depict the same costume on the same girl for fifty panels an issue. It is somewhat easier to show a more form fitting costume, which is why a lot of superhero suits look painted on.

2) How else is the artist going to show off his ability to draw hawt chicks and muscle dudes? Did he/she really waste all that time in art school learning anatomy, just to draw an amorphous shape covered by cloth.

[SSgt Baloo]

What, you've never heard of the Silver Server?

:rofl: Somebody rep this guy for me, huh?


The typical superhero is not the accuser, though. The accuser is the victim. The superhero is just some random loonie who immobilized the perpetrator for the authorities, probably saving the victim in the process. Which brings us to another insupportable premise. Even when a hero has no particular crime finding abilities, isn't it amazing how they manage to stumble across it?

The needs of the plot outweigh the needs of the pedantic few. ;)


I guess I was thinking more of the situations where the hero is interrupting some big deal in a wharehouse, or uncovering some mass conspiracy. Muggings and bank robberies are a little more straigh forward I suppose. Short of going all Frnak Castle on them, how would the average costumed vigilante really deal with a big RICO case? I know they often just pass the info off to the appropriate officials, but that isn't always the case. I have to admit that I don't read as many comics as I once did. Most of what I've read recently has been more of the high body count sort of book anyway.

Most of my characters had some sort of friend or contact who could advise how to proceed in "complicated" circumstances.


IIRC, somebody here has mentioned that they worked as a bike messenger, and that wearing a tight costume is in fact very practical for what they do. It's not hard imagine that extending to many supers as well.

Edna Mode's rants against capes aside, you don't want loose-fitting clothing catching on things (like deathtraps) at crucial moments.


Of course, sometimes idiot artist fail to get the point - I understand that every so often Dust, an Afghani girl on the New Mutants who wears a Burqa, is drawn with the Burqa being rather form-fitting.

I'm sure his excuse is "What? She's covered, isn't she?"

[dmjalund]

the Silver Server is the herald for "Judge Duty" The cases are real. The decisions are EXTREMELY final!

[Mister E]

...
Of course, sometimes idiot artist fail to get the point - I understand that every so often Dust, an Afghani girl on the New Mutants who wears a Burqa, is drawn with the Burqa being rather form-fitting.

Wet burqa contest!


...1) Drawing clothing and drapery is kind of hard, especially if you have to do it over and over again and achieve some consistency, as you would if you were trying to depict the same costume on the same girl for fifty panels an issue. It is somewhat easier to show a more form fitting costume, which is why a lot of superhero suits look painted on...

Unstable molecular body paint?*

EDIT: *a good prophylaxis for preventing both difficult art and wind rash.

[Nuclear Fridge]

1) Drawing clothing and drapery is kind of hard, especially if you have to do it over and over again and achieve some consistency, as you would if you were trying to depict the same costume on the same girl for fifty panels an issue. It is somewhat easier to show a more form fitting costume, which is why a lot of superhero suits look painted on.

Or you could go with the Liefeld/WildCATS principle from back in the day... Don't bother showing the fight sequences. Saves you a lot of work. Just have the 'heroes' look real mean & moody up close, monologuing. Then they return to base, bragging about how they just &$*& the living @*&^* out of the *&$(&@ bad guys.

And then you don't ship next month's issue for 9 or 10 weeks.:idjit:

[Balabanto]

Someone get Mr. E for me. Wet Burqa contest is the !@#$!!!!!

[Armitage]

7. Non-insane supervillains who try to make a living by robbing banks and other property crimes. There's a million ways a supervillain could make easy money, and publicly walking into a bank and ripping the door off isn't one of them, because at least half the time a superhero's going to show up to pound the ever-loving crap out of them and hand them over to be thrown into a high-tech metal box. They could do endorsement deals, use their powers in some form of gainful employment, be a paid research subject, be the head of a crime syndicate (or, heck, shake down a local organized crime crew for money), move to a third world country and be hired muscle for the local dictator(or become the local dictator), join an "unlimited class pro wrestling" league, etc.

Aberrant made this same argument as to why there were no "supervillains" in their world.
Giving a lazy, dumb, two-bit thug super powers doesn't stop him from being a lazy, dumb, two-bit thug.
"Work? Why would I do that? It's even easier to take what I want now."

[Chimera 12]

Aberrant made this same argument as to why there were no "supervillains" in their world.
Giving a lazy, dumb, two-bit thug super powers doesn't stop him from being a lazy, dumb, two-bit thug.
"Work? Why would I do that? It's even easier to take what I want now."

That's a good point. Especially since said thug might actually enjoy some success that way -- superheroes always crawling out of the woodwork in the nick of time to foil supervillains is another one of those comic book tropes, after all. (Which owes its existence to the fact that the comics are about the heroes, of course. Thug-Man's half dozen successful bank robberies before he ran into Captain Justice may be mentioned in passing, but it's a pretty safe bet that we won't see each of them drawn and written in loving detail -- it's not Thug-Man's book.)

[Clonus]

Im amazed that its never occured to the writers at DC that the simplest explanation for why the Joker still draws breath is that Gotham, whatever state it happens to be in, DOESNT ALLOW CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. That would be SO simple to mention in-world, and it would clear up all of those damnable "Batman is responsible for everything Joker does now" arguements.

No, it wouldn't because those arguments are generally advocating that Batman murder the Joker.

[megaplayboy]

I suppose one could make a fairly unique argument for defense-of-others-homicide in the case of Bats and the Joker, but otherwise it generally would qualify as murder, yes. Although I tend to doubt anyone would prosecute, and if they did, if any jury would actually vote to convict. "Let's see, he's captured the guy alive dozens of times, every time he escapes he murders one or more people(and every 5th or 10th time the body count is quite high), and this time he just happened to wind up dead? I'm ready to vote, but I can't decide...what we should order for lunch."

I don't even think you could get a grand jury indictment, frankly. The foreman would stand up and say, "Yes, I have a question. Why are we wasting time on this?"

If insanity were such a revolving door for serial murderers and other sociopaths in the real world, the public would have either tightened up the insanity defense to a severe degree, and/or it would have signed off on rampant vigilantism. And Arkham would be nigh-impossible to escape from. But of course I don't begrudge them that particular fudge factor--Bats would run out of bad guys if they only showed up once every 100 issues.

[Clonus]

I suppose one could make a fairly unique argument for defense-of-others-homicide in the case of Bats and the Joker, but otherwise it generally would qualify as murder, yes. Although I tend to doubt anyone would prosecute, and if they did, if any jury would actually vote to convict. "Let's see, he's captured the guy alive dozens of times, every time he escapes he murders one or more people(and every 5th or 10th time the body count is quite high), and this time he just happened to wind up dead? I'm ready to vote, but I can't decide...what we should order for lunch."

I don't even think you could get a grand jury indictment, frankly. The foreman would stand up and say, "Yes, I have a question. Why are we wasting time on this?"

If insanity were such a revolving door for serial murderers and other sociopaths in the real world, the public would have either tightened up the insanity defense to a severe degree, and/or it would have signed off on rampant vigilantism. And Arkham would be nigh-impossible to escape from. But of course I don't begrudge them that particular fudge factor--Bats would run out of bad guys if they only showed up once every 100 issues.

It is a little odd that all these criminals who would never pass muster as insane in the real world end up in Arkham rather than prison, but that's strictly a Batman thing.

[megaplayboy]

You know what should be located right next to the super-prison? A Hulkbusters base, a SHIELD garrison, and an Avengers HQ. The Outsiders should position their base right next to Arkham Asylum. Or Bats could relocate the Batcave/bat-family to be right there. Would save them so much time...

[Squall]

You know what should be located right next to the super-prison? A Hulkbusters base, a SHIELD garrison, and an Avengers HQ. The Outsiders should position their base right next to Arkham Asylum. Or Bats could relocate the Batcave/bat-family to be right there. Would save them so much time...
And gas. You know how much mileage they could cut off'a that jet-engine-powered Batmobile, if they didn't have such a long commute?!

[steamteck]

Is it just me, or would everyone else be pleased to see some ordinary schmuck from the DC universe put a bullet in Wallers head?



I'm not so picky how she's killed just so she NEVER comes back myself.

[lapsedgamer]

I'm not so picky how she's killed just so she NEVER comes back myself.

I actually like Waller as a character. She just has a certain part of the DC Univese where she should remain. She's perfect in Suicide Squad, but I don't always agree when they make her go toe-to-toe with Superman. Even though it was cool when she threatened Batman, she really should have had reprucussions from that, and some of her past actions as well. She does a lot of dirt, and has yet had to own up to any of it to my knowledge.

[bigbywolfe]

It is a little odd that all these criminals who would never pass muster as insane in the real world end up in Arkham rather than prison, but that's strictly a Batman thing.
Like who?

[Clonus]

Like who?

Among the people who have confined to Arkham when they had no business there I can think of

Killer Moth
Signalman
Poison Ivy
Black Mask
All of the Clayfaces

[Greywind]

Except that Gotham likes to keep things close to home and Arkham has better facilities than the average prison.

Also Moth, Ivy, Black Mask and the various Clayface were all clinically insane.

[megaplayboy]

Except that Gotham likes to keep things close to home and Arkham has better facilities than the average prison.

Also Moth, Ivy, Black Mask and the various Clayface were all clinically insane.

"clinically insane" and "legally insane" are two quite different things. It's actually quite difficult to prove a defendant legally insane under the current standard. I don't know what that standard is in DC(writer's fiat, presumably), but even under the broadest definition ever used, a lot of those guys would still not qualify.

[Greywind]

Different standards in Gotham.

[Narratio]

Back at Insupportable Premises...

Surviving the entropic death of your current universe and the followup "big bang" that creates the next one. (Yes Galactus, I'm looking at you) The energy levels involved... astonishing. And then, after several millenia gobbling down planets across billions of galaxies like they were peanuts / chocolate coated raisins / gummy bears - you get taken down by some two bit punks on an out of the way planet called earth? What? Agreed, the "big bang" thing was never part of Lee/Kirby's original concept, but still!

And the the whole "Your "girlfriend" gets mutated into some giant form, kidnapped, beaten, tortured, given super powers for a day etc, etc" (Lois Lane come on down!) And yet never seems to seek psychiatric help, maintains a "normal" life style, is able to keep steady employment and still likes you for getting her into/out of those scrapes. I've had girls bust my chops for far, far less.

Back at the aging. During Byrnes period at the FF, I remember he did a couple of pages on the Torch visiting an old girl friend who was now married, mother of 3 or 4, gained 100lbs... She had aged, he had not.

[Captain Obvious]

Except that Gotham likes to keep things close to home and Arkham has better facilities than the average prison.

Also Moth, Ivy, Black Mask and the various Clayface were all clinically insane.

Batman's clinically insane. Dude's obsessive as all get out.

[Ian Mackinder]

Batman's clinically insane. Dude's obsessive as all get out.

Obsessive behaviour is not (necessarily) insanity. If it was, most of us gamers would probably be locked up.

Granted, Bats basically lives on (and is Landlord, Supreme Leader and High Priest of) Planet Obsessive.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Batman's clinically insane. Dude's obsessive as all get out.

I keep thinking of the Robot Chicken sketch where the other heroes keep trying to get him to do his chores - and then, Bats goes all "The Call of the Night!" and jumps out of the window.
Then we see him drowning his sorrows at a bar...

[SSgt Baloo]

Just once I'd like to see a hero who's old, apparently out of shape (and out of out of breath from "speeding to the rescue") show up to the fight, get laughed at by the villain, then pwn the guy. Yeah, I did re-watch Kung-Fu Panda recently. :rolleyes:

[Greywind]

Mr. Incredible came close...

[Clonus]

Just once I'd like to see a hero who's old, apparently out of shape (and out of out of breath from "speeding to the rescue") show up to the fight, get laughed at by the villain, then pwn the guy. Yeah, I did re-watch Kung-Fu Panda recently. :rolleyes:

Well, Bruce Wayne wasn't wearing the costume when he went to rescue the protagonist from the Jokerz in the first episode of Batman Beyond, but other than that...

[GoldenAge]

Just once I'd like to see a hero who's old, apparently out of shape (and out of out of breath from "speeding to the rescue") show up to the fight, get laughed at by the villain, then pwn the guy. Yeah, I did re-watch Kung-Fu Panda recently. :rolleyes:

Wildcat does that regularly, though he's equally as pwn'd as he does the pwn'n. :)

[RexMundi]

The Great Destroyer........he did it. Old guy whoops much backside. Odd Art, great Story.

~Rex

[Cygnia]

Just once I'd like to see a hero who's old, apparently out of shape (and out of out of breath from "speeding to the rescue") show up to the fight, get laughed at by the villain, then pwn the guy. Yeah, I did re-watch Kung-Fu Panda recently. :rolleyes:

As they say in Discworld: "Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly smiling men." :cool:

[clsage]

The discussion about comic book supergeniuses who somehow barely affect the overall tech level of the world at large got me thinking about some of the tropes/conventions/premises of comic book universes (as depicted in a typical Marvel/DC book) that seem insupportable on closer inspection:
1. Nothing the heroes do will alter the general status quo very much--Reed Richards can create FTL drives, artificial intelligence devices, limitless power supplies, and none of it will ever filter down to the guy in the street or have much impact on his job or his personal life. The world can repeatedly make contact with alien empires capable of laying the planet to waste or invading at any time, and it has little to no impact on international relations or how people see themselves in relation to people in other countries. Even when the world does seem to change, or react, it tends to "reset to default" within 6-24 issues or so.....

In regard to "super-tech" one answer (which I impose(d) on my Team Norfolk campaign/universe) is described in a old issue of "The Adventurers Club" magazine for Hero System, circa 1985-ish: The Papa Schimmelhorn Effect. While I don't have my copy of the article at hand, it basically says that weird science devices, etc can be "one offs" but are virtually unreproducible by anyone except perhaps the inventor (and then again, maybe even they won't be able to reproduce the darn thing..). And they might only be operable by the inventor as well. In the Team Norfolk Universe, this is (in part..) a manifestation of "super-geniuses" having a form of uncontrolled cyberkenesis....

Or it could be, as per a cartoon in an old gaming supplement notes, when one police officer asks another (re: UNTIL): "How come they got ray guns and we don't ?" To which his fellow officer answers: "Dunno...Better budget maybe ?" :winkgrin:

-Carl-

[Chuckg]

What gets me re: the Joker is... ok, I am going to list three highlights of the Joker's career that are still in-continuity.

* Attempted to kill the UN General Assembly, in session, with nerve gas. Stopped literally in the act (with the gas safely inhaled by Superman and then super-breathed out into space) by the World's Finest. ("Death In The Family")
* Attempted to destroy New York City with sea-launched cruise missiles mounting nuclear warheads. Stopped by the Birds of Prey. (BIRDS OF PREY #16-17)
* Released a biological warfare agent that mutated dozens of supervillains into crazed killing machines. Summer crossover event spanning many titles. ("Last Laugh")

What is the common factor among all the three above events? They involved terrorist attacks with weapons of mass destruction.

Seriously. In DCU continuity, to this day, the Joker is the only living man to have not only attacked the United States with WMDs, to not only have attacked multiple times, but to have attacked with every kind of WMD. Nukes, germs, chemicals, he's used them all.

And they still treat him as a criminal case? Why is he not the DCU's equivalent of Osama bin Laden at this point? Why does his showing up anywhere not result in people saying things like 'terror alert to red', 'mobilize the National Guard', 'lock down the city', 'NEST teams on standby', 'CDC biowar response teams on standby', 'Delta Force has been given orders to terminate', etc?

So yeah, allow me to register my own annoyance at a comic book trope: in the comics, far too often indiscriminate mass murder and attempted mass murder of zillions is treated the same way as would be a simple homicide during an armed robbery: with measured law enforcement response and scrupulous attention paid to your civil rights. As opposed to people actually acting like real people would react to a dude who's tried to use nerve gas to kill the entire United Nations building, or blow up NYC with a neutron bomb, or unleash super-plagues.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Chuckg, you've been reading my mind?
The Joker should be cackling away in a cave up in a Far Eastern country's mountain range by now, given the WMD criteria...

I'm considering this issue for when I return to my 1986 campaign - and Eurostar starts a major campaign of death, destruction, and widespread mayhem. My players are heroes, make no mistake... but how many innocents will Fiacho's crew wipe out if they aren't taken out of the game?

[wick]

In regard to "super-tech" one answer (which I impose(d) on my Team Norfolk campaign/universe) is described in a old issue of "The Adventurers Club" magazine for Hero System, circa 1985-ish: The Papa Schimmelhorn Effect. While I don't have my copy of the article at hand, it basically says that weird science devices, etc can be "one offs" but are virtually unreproducible by anyone except perhaps the inventor (and then again, maybe even they won't be able to reproduce the darn thing..). And they might only be operable by the inventor as well. In the Team Norfolk Universe, this is (in part..) a manifestation of "super-geniuses" having a form of uncontrolled cyberkenesis....

-Carl-

For my campaign I am thinking that there is a Secret society of powerful individuals that want to keep tech on a leash. They know that they cannot and perhaps should not stop all progress they just don't want Tech to leap beyond our civilization to deal with or thatd shift the balance of power. They are not always successful or else there would not be any Mechanon type villians , note that his existence is a strong argument in favor of controlling technical revolutions. They may monitor any new tech based heroes and villians and take measures to limit the impact of the tech on the world. A TonyStark type making a powered suit is one thing, him mass procuding lesser versions for wide scale military use is quite another. This organization is wealthy enough to buy patents for tech and seal them in a vault if or when it is deemed ok to release into the world. Or buying out corporations/ bankrupting them. Influential enough to make supertech disapear from military warehouses and forgotten. They may even have some super powered agents to do missions and enforce their will. Probably the biggest hurdle would be to keep this organization on the right track meaning their has to be a powerful leader that is also benevolent and wants to use the tech only for good.

I am thinking the leader is a time traveler from the future who is also long lived/immortal he knows that in the late 20th/early 21 century many new technologies were release upon the Earth without restraint and the Earth paid the price horribly. Despite his worry over tech destroying the world and even time itself he has made the trip to the past with the intent on changing the future, possibly creating paradoxes and certainly destroying his own alternate timeline. Perhaps his tampering with the timeline has created it's own problems such as an increase in the number of super powered people which may be as bad or worse than the technology rushed that doomed his own reality..only time will tell. He has since destroyed his own time machine to prevent the temptation to retroactively cange the timeline even further and possibly make matters worse.

By the way, you mentioned a Team Norfolk ? Is this campaign played in Norfolk, VA perhaps?

[mattingly]

And Iron Man's origin -- getting bitten by a radioactive iron, and gaining the proportional strength and agility. That's just hard to swallow.

[megaplayboy]

For my campaign I am thinking that there is a Secret society of powerful individuals that want to keep tech on a leash. They know that they cannot and perhaps should not stop all progress they just don't want Tech to leap beyond our civilization to deal with or thatd shift the balance of power. They are not always successful or else there would not be any Mechanon type villians , note that his existence is a strong argument in favor of controlling technical revolutions. They may monitor any new tech based heroes and villians and take measures to limit the impact of the tech on the world. A TonyStark type making a powered suit is one thing, him mass procuding lesser versions for wide scale military use is quite another. This organization is wealthy enough to buy patents for tech and seal them in a vault if or when it is deemed ok to release into the world. Or buying out corporations/ bankrupting them. Influential enough to make supertech disapear from military warehouses and forgotten. They may even have some super powered agents to do missions and enforce their will. Probably the biggest hurdle would be to keep this organization on the right track meaning their has to be a powerful leader that is also benevolent and wants to use the tech only for good.

I am thinking the leader is a time traveler from the future who is also long lived/immortal he knows that in the late 20th/early 21 century many new technologies were release upon the Earth without restraint and the Earth paid the price horribly. Despite his worry over tech destroying the world and even time itself he has made the trip to the past with the intent on changing the future, possibly creating paradoxes and certainly destroying his own alternate timeline. Perhaps his tampering with the timeline has created it's own problems such as an increase in the number of super powered people which may be as bad or worse than the technology rushed that doomed his own reality..only time will tell. He has since destroyed his own time machine to prevent the temptation to retroactively cange the timeline even further and possibly make matters worse.

By the way, you mentioned a Team Norfolk ? Is this campaign played in Norfolk, VA perhaps?

If I were an altruistic gadgeteer/inventor in that campaign and I found out this guy was the reason I couldn't use my know-how to reduce world hunger, poverty and disease, I'd probably never stop punching him in the face.

[kahuna's bro]

For my campaign I am thinking that there is a Secret society of powerful individuals that want to keep tech on a leash. They know that they cannot and perhaps should not stop all progress they just don't want Tech to leap beyond our civilization to deal with or thatd shift the balance of power. They are not always successful or else there would not be any Mechanon type villians , note that his existence is a strong argument in favor of controlling technical revolutions. They may monitor any new tech based heroes and villians and take measures to limit the impact of the tech on the world. A TonyStark type making a powered suit is one thing, him mass procuding lesser versions for wide scale military use is quite another. This organization is wealthy enough to buy patents for tech and seal them in a vault if or when it is deemed ok to release into the world. Or buying out corporations/ bankrupting them. Influential enough to make supertech disapear from military warehouses and forgotten. They may even have some super powered agents to do missions and enforce their will. Probably the biggest hurdle would be to keep this organization on the right track meaning their has to be a powerful leader that is also benevolent and wants to use the tech only for good.

I am thinking the leader is a time traveler from the future who is also long lived/immortal he knows that in the late 20th/early 21 century many new technologies were release upon the Earth without restraint and the Earth paid the price horribly. Despite his worry over tech destroying the world and even time itself he has made the trip to the past with the intent on changing the future, possibly creating paradoxes and certainly destroying his own alternate timeline. Perhaps his tampering with the timeline has created it's own problems such as an increase in the number of super powered people which may be as bad or worse than the technology rushed that doomed his own reality..only time will tell. He has since destroyed his own time machine to prevent the temptation to retroactively cange the timeline even further and possibly make matters worse.

By the way, you mentioned a Team Norfolk ? Is this campaign played in Norfolk, VA perhaps?an organization like that would make life interesting in steve's ICONS campaign

[wick]

And Iron Man's origin -- getting bitten by a radioactive iron, and gaining the proportional strength and agility. That's just hard to swallow.

Even though the organization's leader is from the future, he does not have prescience. As soon as he started to interfere the history from that time line began to diverge from his own. The catalyst that drove Tony Stark to design and build his Iron Man suit may not have happened in his own timeline. Perhaps someone else made the armor or a dozen different variations. The leader would say, " That's funny I don't recall from my 20th/21st Century American History class there being Power armored developed until 2035 and by a group of Swedish scientist and it was definitely not as advanced as this Iron Man's armor." Starks Armor was developed privately and was made public after it was fully functional. The Leader has to find out about technological break throughs the old fashioned way..i.e. spies, news, informants, or sometimes from his history etc... Also, the history that he was taught remains the same even as his actions are causing those same books to be rewritten.

He may know some individuals and events but his active interference (schemes) as well as his passive interference ( side effects from ripping a hole in Time and traveling to an earlier Era) are changing history. I am runninng with a no Grandfather paradox..if he kills his grandfather he will be here still becuase he is now a part of the timeline and the present, but it will cause a strain on reality that can have unforseen consequences like more super beings are showing up than what he learned about in history. And if he killed his grandfather and was able to go back to the future he would discover a world where his parents and himself never existed.

[Nuclear Fridge]

High-Tech Enemies covers a lot of this - there's an outline in the back called 'The Sci-Tech War' in which a secret conflict between various factions is going on. They're all out to steal/confiscate/control super-advanced designs and discoveries; the premise being that if the police dept. in Podunk, Nebraska, has access to blaster weapons, then blaster weapons are no longer cutting-edge & desirable toys. There's one group - Cy Force I think - in the book that's led by a self-appointed messiah out to save the world. He knows he's the best choice to decide how super tech is doled out to the unwashed masses...
...Hmm. Sounds weirdly familiar...

[Greywind]

And Iron Man's origin -- getting bitten by a radioactive iron, and gaining the proportional strength and agility. That's just hard to swallow.But he does wonders owning that little Chinese Laundry...

[Egyptoid]

>>> that if the police dept. in Podunk, Nebraska, has access to blaster weapons . . .

Hmmm. might have to address that in the USA-5O

[clsage]

<snippage of some interesting stuff...>
By the way, you mentioned a Team Norfolk ? Is this campaign played in Norfolk, VA perhaps?

No, the actual playing group was in the mid-central region of IL (Decatur to be exact...). The name "Team Norfolk" derives from the fact that the characters in the campaign all begin their activities in and around Norfolk, VA. Long story short, I had some inspiration(s) a few years back while working in Norfolk and, when the opportunity to run a campaign arose I combined them with some other concepts from the back burners of my brain and voila' the scenario came to be. I suppose that I should actually call the group "Team Corona" since that ties into the organization which was responsible for their powers but I just liked the sound of "Team Norfolk" better.... :)

I discuss a bit about the campaign and such in my blog here on the Hero forums
( http://www.herogames.com/forums/blog.php/3308-clsage ) and in my Yahoo group "Corona Research Group" ( http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CoronaResearchGroup/ )...Feel free to take a look.

-Carl-

[mattingly]

But he does wonders owning that little Chinese Laundry...
Iron Man, Iron Man
Does whatever an iron can
Presses shirts, squashes ants
Puts the crease in your pants

[Hugh Neilson]

Forget where I heard this one, but I got i from somewhere

Iron Man, Iron Man
Does whatever an iron can
Presses pants, any size
Gets those pleats just in line

[wick]

High-Tech Enemies covers a lot of this - there's an outline in the back called 'The Sci-Tech War' in which a secret conflict between various factions is going on. They're all out to steal/confiscate/control super-advanced designs and discoveries; the premise being that if the police dept. in Podunk, Nebraska, has access to blaster weapons, then blaster weapons are no longer cutting-edge & desirable toys. There's one group - Cy Force I think - in the book that's led by a self-appointed messiah out to save the world. He knows he's the best choice to decide how super tech is doled out to the unwashed masses...
...Hmm. Sounds weirdly familiar...

....My wife and I are from Nebraska......... -_-

I thought up the whole idea on my own becuase I want my campaign to o follow real world type repercussions. Super heroes/villians are pretty new with the precedence of a few costumed (heroic level) heroes/villians before that, say around the mid 40's to 50's. A gap of a few decades with a smattering of heros showing up and then in the mid 90's the first "Supers" make their appearence but only a few at first with more showing up over the years. That way the Age of Superheros is still pretty new to the world but the PC's don't have to be the ones leading the way in changing the world.

[Chuckg]

One of my proposed solutions was simply to set the campaign in the 80s or early 90s, but use modern Internet-era tech level as a general thing (i.e., putting the tech curve 20-30 years ahead of schedule). Thus taking into account the superheroic march of progress, even presuming that energy weapons, force fields, and etc. remain cost-ineffective for general use.

Of course, the "cost-ineffective" dodge doesn't work for those applications where cost-effectiveness takes a second place to throw weight, so, you still have to explain where the DoD is putting the mecha suits (albeit Turtle Armor level mecha suits) and the lightning cannons. 'They have a few hundred, arming one special high-tech battalion, doing a long-term troop test as regards their viability' is a solution that Champs 5e came up with, and I'm cool with that.

Granted, one downside of using the 80s is that you still have the Soviet Union and the Cold War to deal with... wait, how is that a downside? Its practically a perpetual plot generator. :)

[Nuclear Fridge]

....My wife and I are from Nebraska......... -_-

Apologies, wick. I picked Nebraska out of the air. Could just as easily have been New Mexico, New England, or Nevada.

But if the local police dept. has a demonstrable need for blasters (and the NYPD doesn't), what exactly is going on in that town...?

[lapsedgamer]

If I were an altruistic gadgeteer/inventor in that campaign and I found out this guy was the reason I couldn't use my know-how to reduce world hunger, poverty and disease, I'd probably never stop punching him in the face.

If you haven't, read Planetary. The storyline is a lot like this, and the bad guys get handled in the end, so you you might get some vicarious enjoyment out of it. Plus, they finally finished the story line after like ten years, with a lot of delays in between. You won't have to suffer through the waiting for new issues to come out thing like I did.


Apologies, wick. I picked Nebraska out of the air. Could just as easily have been New Mexico, New England, or Nevada.

But if the local police dept. has a demonstrable need for blasters (and the NYPD doesn't), what exactly is going on in that town...?

I don't think any local municipality or state government would have that level of tech unless it was ubiquitous. The cost would be prohibitive. I could see the feds (PRIMUS or whatever) having it and the cities having to ask for assistance from them. Of course, this would rarely arrive in time to be of use, so the heroes would be left to deal with the issues.

[JmOz]

I think cities with high metacrime would start to use blasters, especialy after they confiscate so many of them, for special units (Similar to the SWAT team)

[bigbywolfe]

I think cities with high metacrime would start to use blasters, especialy after they confiscate so many of them, for special units (Similar to the SWAT team)
Basically like the MARS units in Champions?

[JmOz]

thank you, could not remember what they were called

[lemming]

I could see Vegas casino security having high tech, though I think they'd let the criminal get away and have the means to track them. Don't want to damage their own stuff.

[Markdoc]

Of course, sometimes idiot artist fail to get the point - I understand that every so often Dust, an Afghani girl on the New Mutants who wears a Burqa, is drawn with the Burqa being rather form-fitting.

Actually something like that already exists: it's called a "Burqini" - I kid you not.
http://www.vosizneias.com/content/2009/08/burkini-250x300.jpg

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

No, the actual playing group was in the mid-central region of IL (Decatur to be exact...). The name "Team Norfolk" derives from the fact that the characters in the campaign all begin their activities in and around Norfolk, VA. Long story short, I had some inspiration(s) a few years back while working in Norfolk and, when the opportunity to run a campaign arose I combined them with some other concepts from the back burners of my brain and voila' the scenario came to be. I suppose that I should actually call the group "Team Corona" since that ties into the organization which was responsible for their powers

They were assembled by a beer company? :)

cheers, Mark

[Ian Mackinder]

They were assembled by a beer company? :)

Supergroups have been assembled out of much worse, I'm certain.

[bigbywolfe]

Of course, sometimes idiot artist fail to get the point - I understand that every so often Dust, an Afghani girl on the New Mutants who wears a Burqa, is drawn with the Burqa being rather form-fitting.


Actually something like that already exists: it's called a "Burqini" - I kid you not.
http://www.vosizneias.com/content/2009/08/burkini-250x300.jpg

cheers, Mark

Yes, but the character being referred to is a strict observer who even wears a veil. She would probably think these women were harlots. Yet she's still drawn with form fitting clothes...

[dmjalund]

They were assembled by a beer company? :)Duffman™ says Hi

[AnotherSkip]

I'll do the rest one at a time as they occur to me:

6. Rampant exhibitionism. People with beyond-perfect physiques running around in skin-tight/sheer/body-hugging costumes, that in the case of female heroes are barely there. This isn't necessarily an insupportable premise, but that a bunch of people run around in these outfits and generally don't spend significant amounts of time staring at each other, and that non-supers also generally don't gawk for all that much time either, is a bit much. I would go into the whole supers-rarely-get-sexually-assaulted-after-being-KOed, but I do think there's a supportable premise for that, based on my point about the Iron Age above--nobody really wants to go there much, because retaliation would be...severe. But it is still just a tad insupportable to put people in costumes that would qualify them as exhibitionists in the real world, and have the public reaction be muted compared to what it might be in the real world if a taller, bustier Megan Fox walked down the street dressed like a patriotic hooker.

Uh IIRC some reasonably attractive female singer was walking down the streets of Dallas... NAKED and she hasn't even been charged yet for public nudity and at most might face a charge of filming without a permit. in part because there hasn't been one complaint about her behavior. yes the whole thing was for a video but still man... if thath doesnt point to our society being more rational than many have supposed.....

[AnotherSkip]

For my campaign I am thinking that there is a Secret society of powerful individuals that want to keep tech on a leash. They know that they cannot and perhaps should not stop all progress they just don't want Tech to leap beyond our civilization to deal with or thatd shift the balance of power. They are not always successful or else there would not be any Mechanon type villians , note that his existence is a strong argument in favor of controlling technical revolutions. They may monitor any new tech based heroes and villians and take measures to limit the impact of the tech on the world. A TonyStark type making a powered suit is one thing, him mass procuding lesser versions for wide scale military use is quite another. This organization is wealthy enough to buy patents for tech and seal them in a vault if or when it is deemed ok to release into the world. Or buying out corporations/ bankrupting them. Influential enough to make supertech disapear from military warehouses and forgotten. They may even have some super powered agents to do missions and enforce their will. Probably the biggest hurdle would be to keep this organization on the right track meaning their has to be a powerful leader that is also benevolent and wants to use the tech only for good.

I am thinking the leader is a time traveler from the future who is also long lived/immortal he knows that in the late 20th/early 21 century many new technologies were release upon the Earth without restraint and the Earth paid the price horribly. Despite his worry over tech destroying the world and even time itself he has made the trip to the past with the intent on changing the future, possibly creating paradoxes and certainly destroying his own alternate timeline. Perhaps his tampering with the timeline has created it's own problems such as an increase in the number of super powered people which may be as bad or worse than the technology rushed that doomed his own reality..only time will tell. He has since destroyed his own time machine to prevent the temptation to retroactively cange the timeline even further and possibly make matters worse.

By the way, you mentioned a Team Norfolk ? Is this campaign played in Norfolk, VA perhaps?

I am working on a campaign wherein all of superheros and supervillians are being given super tech as part of a plot by aliens to destroy they earth while still leaving it viable. all the heroes and villians are trying to find a way to survive (the aliens choose poor people close to financial ruin in order to have them likely to be willing to fuck over the planet and in supreme arrogance tell everyone involved (in groups of 30 peopel or so at a time) as a way to crank up the pressure of knowing that "if i dont tell soon somone else will and they will profit from it" thus the scientific geniuses CAN'T just release tech willy nilly because it could destroy the planet. And everyone wants to keep anyone from reverse engineering stuff or giving it to the government. If anyone want i can look up the short story it is based upon. Very Cool story found in a SCi Fi anthology....

[wrestlinggeek]

Plus, while I can see that happening in the Ultimate universe, because superheroes are brand new, in the Marvel and DC universe where masked crimefighters have been around for up to 90 years, depending on what current continuity says, I'd think there'd be something worked out as a reliable way for masked heroes to testify. After all, confidential informants and undercover officers do it.

Actually, this has been shown in the DC Universe. It was a three-part crossover with Green Lantern, Flash, and Green Arrow. I can't remember the issue numbers or the title, but the story was that the three were on an Alaskan cruise together when Sonar and Polaris (IIRC) attacked the ship. The story was bookended by the courtroom scene, in which it wass established that superheroes in good standing (such as members of the JLA) were allowed to testify under their masked identities.

[Burrito Boy]

Apologies, wick. I picked Nebraska out of the air. Could just as easily have been New Mexico, New England, or Nevada.

But if the local police dept. has a demonstrable need for blasters (and the NYPD doesn't), what exactly is going on in that town...?

I was born in Nevada, grew up in New Mexico, and currently live in New England. Really, how insensitive can you be? :p

[Nuclear Fridge]

I live in a country which is just about the last dependency of a former world power. Said world power does not have a guarantee of free speech; I cannot express my opinion without leaving myself open to be called a racist, a fascist, or just plain stupid.
In the past, people from that country have cheerfully accused me of genetic inferiority, congenital idiocy, and of animal molestation - based on no more solid evidence than they live on the 'upscale' side of the border, and on my bloodline, surname, and accent. And I am supposed to nod, smile, and swallow it.

So I am not trying to be insensitive or insulting here, Burrito Boy.

[Burrito Boy]

I live in a country which is just about the last dependency of a former world power. Said world power does not have a guarantee of free speech; I cannot express my opinion without leaving myself open to be called a racist, a fascist, or just plain stupid.
In the past, people from that country have cheerfully accused me of genetic inferiority, congenital idiocy, and of animal molestation - based on no more solid evidence than they live on the 'upscale' side of the border, and on my bloodline, surname, and accent. And I am supposed to nod, smile, and swallow it.

So I am not trying to be insensitive or insulting here, Burrito Boy.

I know you're not trying to be insensitive or insulting. And although I really was born in Nevada, etc., I was just trying to be goofy. Hence the "tongue sticky outy guy". (Really wish I could remember who I got that term from.) I'm sorry if I upset you. :o

[Nuclear Fridge]

Ah heck, Burrito, no harm done. Sorry if I snapped.
I just get a bit tired of having to keep my mouth shut while certain people I work with seem to have carte blanche to upset & insult people.:idjit:

[dmjalund]

free speech means anyone at anytime can call you racist, fascist or stupid - without cause

[Greywind]

Actually, they can't. It falls under slander.

[dmjalund]

but making it slander is LESS free than not - so in a country where they CAN is theoretically more free than where they can't

[Mister E]

but making it slander is LESS free than not - so in a country where they CAN is theoretically more free than where they can't

More autonomy to call people names = Less liberty from being called names

[dmjalund]

sounds like "Frredom from choice" type arguments

[wick]

I was born in Nevada, grew up in New Mexico, and currently live in New England. Really, how insensitive can you be? :p

It's cool, I just do a double take when anyone mentions my home state becuase you don't often hear it when you are out of state like me. Sorta like when you see a license plate from your home state and you look to see if you know the driver...which is improbable and kinda silly. No offense was really taken, Nebraska does have some very rural areas.

Insupportable premises: how about physics? I am not talking about high level physics I am talking basic laws of physics. If super dense/heavy guy jumps off a building to catch someone who just fell he will never catch up to the falling person regardless of the relative weights.

[Mister E]

sounds like "Frredom from choice" type arguments

I am imagining a state than which no freer state can be imagined.

Say there are no laws at all... just limitless freedom. In this state, everyone does whatever they want. Or rather, as long as it doesn't limit freedom, everyone does whatever they want. For if people limit freedom by doing whatever they want, I am imagining a still freer state... an identical state which was freer in that (though anyone can do whatever they want) there is no negative effect on freedom.

It is this freest of all states which I am imagining, rather than the ersatz free state which leaves lingering discontent on its conclusion.

[dmjalund]

I didn't say it was good. I was just saying it'd be freer

[Markdoc]

I am imagining a state than which no freer state can be imagined.

Say there are no laws at all... just limitless freedom. In this state, everyone does whatever they want. Or rather, as long as it doesn't limit freedom, everyone does whatever they want. For if people limit freedom by doing whatever they want, I am imagining a still freer state... an identical state which was freer in that (though anyone can do whatever they want) there is no negative effect on freedom.

It is this freest of all states which I am imagining, rather than the ersatz free state which leaves lingering discontent on its conclusion.

Ah - so like .... say, Somalia?


I didn't say it was good. I was just saying it'd be freer

Yep, that's a pretty free state - you can do whatever you can get away with. But it's more or less the diametric opposite of good.

OK, I know that's not what you meant, but in reality, it is literally impossible to have a state where everyone has complete freedom - unless there is only one citizen. As soon as you have two or more, you reach a point where there will be conflict over certain choices of action. The point of having a state (and laws) is to try to minimize that lingering discontent - and as far as I can see, that part's still a work in progress.

cheers, Mark

[Mister E]

Ah - so like .... say, Somalia?



Somalia... Nebraska... Cimmeria... Jotunheim... Anaheim... Bartertown...

[Captain Obvious]

Insupportable premises: how about physics? I am not talking about high level physics I am talking basic laws of physics. If super dense/heavy guy jumps off a building to catch someone who just fell he will never catch up to the falling person regardless of the relative weights.

Yeah, not on a building height scale. It'll happen at skydiving height though. It always surprises me how many people think that "terminal velocity" is some sort of universal constant, and that a crashing fighter jet falls to earth no faster than a human body, and totally without regard to parachutes, feathers, and dandelion seeds.

[megaplayboy]

I left comic book physics off the list because it's just something you have to accept in order to enjoy the genre at all. Kinda like magic and dragons in a fantasy campaign--every effort to "explain" it scientifically just comes off a bit lame, imo. So long as there's relative consistency(i.e, most of the time the physics of the comic book universe works this way), I'm ok with it.

[Clonus]

Insupportable premises: how about physics? I am not talking about high level physics I am talking basic laws of physics. If super dense/heavy guy jumps off a building to catch someone who just fell he will never catch up to the falling person regardless of the relative weights.

Never actually seen that in comics. The guys who jump off buildings to catch people usually can fly.

[Chimera 12]

Never actually seen that in comics. The guys who jump off buildings to catch people usually can fly.

Of course, the impact of the catch should still do some noticeable damage provided the falling person has had time to pick up some speed. It's not as though there was anything about the ground that made landing hard specifically on it magically dangerous, after all -- it's all in the abrupt deceleration.

<death wail of a catgirl in the background>

Oops. I'll shut up now. :o

[input.jack]

Ill bet you that Spiderman is careful to catch people gently now. Like practicing egg tossing.

[megaplayboy]

In real life, humans are able to withstand very high G forces for a second or more(25 gs for 1.1 second is the measured record), and extreme g forces for very brief duration(100 gs for a small fraction of a second). Rescuing a falling human who's travelling at 30m/second, and applying 15 g of deceleration, the stopping distance is about 3 meters/10 feet. At the extreme, applying 100 g of deceleration to stop a 60m/second fall, the stopping distance would be...60/1000= .06 seconds, squared, times 1000 x .5 = 2 meters. So, yes, Superman can catch Lois Lane safely, so long as he dips slightly when she falls into his arms.

[Matt the Bruins]

It probably helps that he has that "lifting objects by force of will when flying" thing going on, so all the stopping power isn't focused at the contact points and snapping her ribs and femurs like matchsticks. I don't think Tony Stark's hoochie du jour would be so lucky if caught by Iron Man after falling off a rooftop.

[Markdoc]

It probably helps that he has that "lifting objects by force of will when flying" thing going on, so all the stopping power isn't focused at the contact points and snapping her ribs and femurs like matchsticks. I don't think Tony Stark's hoochie du jour would be so lucky if caught by Iron Man after falling off a rooftop.

Assuming he even bothered to catch her.....

Heh. Tony's got along way to go before living down Civil War :)

cheers, Mark

[lemming]

It's cool, I just do a double take when anyone mentions my home state becuase you don't often hear it when you are out of state like me. Sorta like when you see a license plate from your home state and you look to see if you know the driver...which is improbable and kinda silly. No offense was really taken, Nebraska does have some very rural areas.

I had this conversation:
Other guy: "Where are you from?"
Me: "California."
Other guy: "Oh, do you know <Name of friend from college"
Me: :nonp:

Then again, I've also run into people I know when I was in a different country.

[Clonus]

Ill bet you that Spiderman is careful to catch people gently now. Like practicing egg tossing.

He was actually. They specifically did a rescue the year afterward where he was careful not to just shoot webbing and stop the guy dead, but instead moved him in a swinging arc that would have still pulled some serious gs but no spine snapping.

[Clonus]

Of course, the impact of the catch should still do some noticeable damage provided the falling person has had time to pick up some speed. It's not as though there was anything about the ground that made landing hard specifically on it magically dangerous, after all -- it's all in the abrupt deceleration.


The guys I've seen do that fly down to do that and have a little time to decelerate before they hit concrete.

[Shadow Hawk]

I had this conversation:
Other guy: "Where are you from?"
Me: "California."
Other guy: "Oh, do you know <Name of friend from college"
Me: :nonp:

Then again, I've also run into people I know when I was in a different country.

Been there. People don't realize that it's over 100 miles to Los Angeles from San Diego. And 400 more to Sacramento/San Fransisco. No, I don't know anyone attending UC Bezerkly, it's 500 miles from here. Nor TUSC, that's over 100 miles. How about San Diego State, that's in the neighborhood.

[Ian Mackinder]

I had this conversation:
Other guy: "Where are you from?"
Me: "California."
Other guy: "Oh, do you know <Name of friend from college"
Me: :nonp:

Seems to be an especially common thing for we Aussies when travelling overseas. Mention you are from Australia and the standard reaction in many countries is something like "I've got a cousin living in Melbourne. Perhaps you know him?...".

Which gets hard to answer politely when in fact you hail from Sydney (the Sydney-Melbourne rivalry is older than Federation).

[lemming]

Hmm. I didn't make it clear. Friend from college was my friend from college.

[JmOz]

there is a great scene where (I think) Green Goblin throws MJ off of the Brooklyn Bridge, Spidey flashes back to Gwen, then he thinks, I have thought about what I could do differently everyday of my life (Scene of about a thousand different webbings connecting to all different parts of MJ)

[Mister E]

there is a great scene where (I think) Green Goblin throws MJ off of the Brooklyn Bridge, Spidey flashes back to Gwen, then he thinks, I have thought about what I could do differently everyday of my life (Scene of about a thousand different webbings connecting to all different parts of MJ)

Raunchy! I think I have that one. :p

[Clonus]

Hmm. I didn't make it clear. Friend from college was my friend from college.

Yeah, the reason people keep doing that is because there's a real, if low, chance that they do, and it's really cool when they do.

[Escafarc]

I had this conversation:
Other guy: "Where are you from?"
Me: "California."
Other guy: "Oh, do you know <Name of friend from college"
Me: :nonp:

Then again, I've also run into people I know when I was in a different country.


Hmm. I didn't make it clear. Friend from college was my friend from college.

College Years = 4yrs spent in self induced "Altered State":drink: