Champions vs. Crowns of Krim

[Agent X]

Has anybody run a battle between the Champions and the Crowns of Krim? I'd like to know what happened in the battle.

[Hermit]

My players have their own characters, so I won't be running the Champions against the Crowns of Krim anytime soon. Still, it would be an interesting if slightly onesided match up.

[Jeff T.]

Considering the Champions would probably have trouble with Dark Seraph alone, I think a battle against all the Crowns would be an obvious slaughter.

[Lord Liaden]

As the two teams are written, I'm afraid it wouldn't be much of a fight. There are six Crowns to five Champions, and the least of the Crowns would probably be a match for the toughest Champion, while Dark Seraph is a near-epic opponent by himself. The Crowns of Krim don't seem to be that big on team tactics, but they do all obey Dark Seraph without question

If the Champs could call on the Millennium City 8, it might be an even match. ;)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden


If the Champs could call on the Millennium City 8, it might be an even match. ;)

*G* And given some of the Hunteds the MC8 have, it might make more sense as well ;)

[OddHat]

If the GM allowed Witchcraft to "sanctify" the ground where the combat was to take place via change environment and create some holy objects maybe...

Even that would only be 2d6 per turn per crown for the ground plus the impact from the objects, and it would require accepting Witchcraft as a religious Wiccan or the equivelant.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by OddHat

...it would require accepting Witchcraft as a religious Wiccan or the equivelant.

I don't think she'd fit the bill. Witchcraft is too uncertain of her origin and her 'purity' to really qualify. She believes her heritage taints her, and while she seems to find magic fascinating; she also grew up around its darkest sides. She's got a lot of issues to work out before progressing there.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hermit
I don't think she'd fit the bill. Witchcraft is too uncertain of her origin and her 'purity' to really qualify. She believes her heritage taints her, and while she seems to find magic fascinating; she also grew up around its darkest sides. She's got a lot of issues to work out before progressing there.

I can certainly see that point of view. You'd have to interpret the character as taking comfort from the idea of being a white witch, and as enough of a believer to get the rituals to work. GMs call.

As a side note, I think there's a serious problem with allowing payers or NPCs to take Susceptible to X limits in a campaign where X doesn't exist. I see a lot of "susceptible to holy items" characters running around in the Hero universe. Outside of Fantasy Hero I can't recall any published characters that could exploit that weakness. So, in my home campaigns, I allow players of characters who have the appropriate psych limits to use "holy" objects where appropriate, and I allow magic based characters with the appropriate psych limits to sanctify ground and objects in accordance with the theology subscribed to by the character. House rule only, and I wouldn't push it on others.

[Hermit]

*chuckles* I had one character who's made great use of leading villains of infernal nature to Churchs and other holy places. Since there are few heroes with 'holy' powers, I'm quite lenient in deciding that "Yes, almost any old church should do."

For Champions characters themselves, if they've been played as being particularly devout, one could allow them an 'Ego roll' to summon the faith needed to hurt the foe. That too would have to be a GM call though.

[OddHat]

So far in my campaigns a character with psych limits appropriate to his or her faith has always been able to use "holy" items if he or she can get them. I've allowed magic using characters to actually build such items in the past, especially if they had KS or SS: Theology.

That said, I really like the Faith skill from Fantasy Hero, and I've been thinking over a few designs for a champions class character with powers that require a Faith roll.

[Lord Liaden]

There are a couple of other possibilities on the "holy attacks" front (sounds kind of weird putting it that way). One is to include any hero or artifact that draws its power from a deity of essentially benigh nature from any faith or mythology. Comic book universes are full of those. Another is to adopt the common fictional assumption that the power of holy symbols, artifacts and the like come not from their innate nature, but from the sincere faith that a person has in them. Ergo an atheist brandishing a cross at a vampire won't even slow him down.

Just to take a couple of recent examples from the Millennium City 8 in Digital Hero #13, Megaera as a champion of Athena might qualify as wielding "holy power" under the first condition, while Steadfast could be covered by either or both.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Just to take a couple of recent examples from the Millennium City 8 in Digital Hero #13, Megaera as a champion of Athena might qualify as wielding "holy power" under the first condition, while Steadfast could be covered by either or both.

I'd definitely count Megaera as wielding "holy power" in my campaign, though I'd require her to use Theology or Ritual skills to sanctify ground or objects. Steadfast certainly counts as someone who could face off against "unholly" opponents with cross in hand; on the other hand, his origin story leaves the question of where his power come from a bit more open than Megaera's.

[Patriot]

Christ , what a battle


Occulon and Foxbat could beat The Champions

[McCoy]

Originally posted by OddHat
As a side note, I think there's a serious problem with allowing payers or NPCs to take Susceptible to X limits in a campaign where X doesn't exist. I see a lot of "susceptible to holy items" characters running around in the Hero universe. Outside of Fantasy Hero I can't recall any published characters that could exploit that weakness.
Ever seen Dogma? Holy objects can be found if a character looks.

This was discussed in an old Adventurer's Club, the example as I recall was a PC that took the psych crock "fear of snow geese" when the campagine was set in El Paso. Several examples of how to work in snow geese were given, then summed up something like if the player says snow geese are common around the Rio Grande, it's up to the GM to supply them.

[Crimson Arrow]

Well, Lord Liaden and OddHat beat me to the punch about the MC8.

Megaera isn't a priestess and isn't likely to become one, in my view, but this discussion made me wonder about whether areas such as Stonehenge could be classed as holy areas. I am not saying they would still be considered sanctified in real life, but in comic book terms, maybe they are. The villain might be on the lookout for churches, but not sites dedicated to other faiths. The evil of the Crowns of Krim pre-dates Christianity, I believe.

I also wondered if certain types of evil might only be weakened in the presence of the directly opposing faith. You know, like the Jewish vampire from "The Fearless Vampire Hunters" not being afraid of a crucifix. Again, I think that, save where necessary for drama, I'd go with comic-book sensibilities and ignore the precise type of "good".

[BNakagawa]

In a straight up fight, the real question is - can the Champions survive long enough to get to see a post phase 12 recovery?

[tomd1969]

You guys are scaring me...

The PCs in my campaign are heading head-long into a fight with the Crowns, mostly because they believe that the Crowns are after the MacGuffin of the Week <tm>.

Would super-soakers filled with holy water do the trick? :D

EDIT: Fixed typo.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by tomd1969
You guys are scaring me...

The PCs in my campaign are heading head-long into a fight with the Crowns, mostly because they believe that the Crowns are after the MacGuffin of the Week <tm>.

Would super-soakers filled with holy water do the trick? :D



Helpful, but not decisive. Even if you as GM allow the Crowns of Krim to continue to take damage from holy water lingering on their bodies (beyond just the initial contact), that's still only 2d6 STUN and BODY damage per Turn on each of the Crowns. A group of Standard level heroes probably wouldn't last two turns against all the Crowns together.

If the PCs can trick the Crowns onto some type of consecrated ground and weaken them a little before combat starts, they might have a better chance. Barring that, perhaps you could have some of the Crowns performing another task at the time of the confrontation, so that fewer of them will be alongside Dark Seraph.

[Agent X]

We figured the Champions could take the Crowns of Krim if they had a powerful supermage with a 100 pt. vpp backing them up and total surprise so they could all haymaker their attacks.:)

[Hermit]

Well, maybe if Dark Sereph wasn't involved and had sent the Crowns to do the job without him.

Add Kinetik to the Champions line up for this one... and...

nope, it would still be lopsided, but at least they'd have a better chance.

[Lord Liaden]

Actually, with Kinetic to even the numbers, decent teamwork, and without Dark Seraph around to call the shotsfor the other Crowns... the Champions just might pull it off. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
We figured the Champions could take the Crowns of Krim if they had a powerful supermage with a 100 pt. vpp backing them up and total surprise so they could all haymaker their attacks.:)

Oh well, sure, that'd help a lot. Got one'a them mages in your back pocket there, X? :rolleyes:

Maybe they could just invite Takofanes for tea: "Say, Tak, as long as you're here, we have this little problem you might be able to help us with..."

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Oh well, sure, that'd help a lot. Got one'a them mages in your back pocket there, X? :rolleyes:

Maybe they could just invite Takofanes for tea: "Say, Tak, as long as you're here, we have this little problem you might be able to help us with..." You know, I'm a little confused. Why are the Champions hunting the Crowns of Krim? Are they suicidal or are they just trying to find them so they can ask someone else to deal with them?

Are the Champions really supposed to be the premiere Super-Team? If not, why are they mentioned so often in the 5th Ed. Champions Universe?

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
You know, I'm a little confused. Why are the Champions hunting the Crowns of Krim? Are they suicidal or are they just trying to find them so they can ask someone else to deal with them?

Are the Champions really supposed to be the premiere Super-Team? If not, why are they mentioned so often in the 5th Ed. Champions Universe?

That's certainly a reasonable question. As far as I can tell from reading Champions Universe, the premiere hero team on Champs-Earth is the Sentinels, whom Darren Watts has begun detailing in Digital Hero. The Champions are fairly prominent and respected, but not in the same class as the Sentinels, who are more meant to be the Justice League or Avengers of this world.

What the Champions are are the example team, meant to illustrate various character archetypes. They're probably referenced all the time because that's what they're there for.

As for the Champs Hunting the Crowns of Krim, each of the Crowns has them as an individual Hunted, the whole team vs. one Crown, with the power of the Hunter rated on that basis: "More Powerful" for most of the Crowns, "As Powerful" for Dark Seraph (which tells you something right there).

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Agent X
You know, I'm a little confused. Why are the Champions hunting the Crowns of Krim? Are they suicidal or are they just trying to find them so they can ask someone else to deal with them?

Are the Champions really supposed to be the premiere Super-Team? If not, why are they mentioned so often in the 5th Ed. Champions Universe?

You underestimate the value of the Protected By The Plot Perk each of the Champions receives.

"Ha! Defeating those fools was easy! Bloodstone, kill them!"

"Yes Dark...wait. For some reason I feel the urge to put them all into an easily escapeable death trap."

"What!? Dont't be...Yes. Yes, that's right. A deathtrap."

"Should I explain all of our plans to them before I leave them unguarded master?"

"Yes, yes of course. Make sure you leave all of their gadgets and weapons nearby. Store their foci in the same room where I keep the one weapon that can destroy me."

"Yes my lord."

The Crowns don't have a chance.
:cool:

[Lupus]

Originally posted by OddHat
You underestimate the value of the Protected By The Plot Perk each of the Champions receives.

"Ha! Defeating those fools was easy! Bloodstone, kill them!"

"Yes Dark...wait. For some reason I feel the urge to put them all into an easily escapeable death trap."

"What!? Dont't be...Yes. Yes, that's right. A deathtrap."

"Should I explain all of our plans to them before I leave them unguarded master?"

"Yes, yes of course. Make sure you leave all of their gadgets and weapons nearby. Store their foci in the same room where I keep the one weapon that can destroy me."

"Yes my lord."

The Crowns don't have a chance.
:cool: You know, that's a fantastic idea.

10d6 mind control, fully invisible, AOE Radius, 0 END Persistant, cumulative, telepathic (237 Active Points)
Always On (-0), Set Effect (only to convince villain to leave hero alive), requires a COM roll (assume COM of 20) with 2 levels of luck.
Real Points: 67

The 'fully invisible' is at the full +1 advantage level. I can't find a rule to this effect in FREd, but if I remember, the Ultimate Mentalist (4th ed) said fully invisible mental powers were at the full +1 level. I'm sure with more effort I could get it down further. But that's neat. Possibly an 'only while unconscious' limitation. How many GMs out there would let this power construct into their games? :)

Or could just go with the ever-popular 20d6 Continuous AoE Flash vs Common Sense.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Lupus
The 'fully invisible' is at the full +1 advantage level. I can't find a rule to this effect in FREd, but if I remember, the Ultimate Mentalist (4th ed) said fully invisible mental powers were at the full +1 level. I'm sure with more effort I could get it down further. But that's neat. Possibly an 'only while unconscious' limitation. How many GMs out there would let this power construct into their games? :)

Or could just go with the ever-popular 20d6 Continuous AoE Flash vs Common Sense.

Hide Effects of Power works for Mental Powers; check the FAQ. :)

I kind of like 12d6 Luck, only to keep character alive (-1), Special Effect: Stupid Foes, real cost:30 points. ;)

[Lord Liaden]

In case you weren't aware of it, making Mental Powers Fully Invisible is only a +1/2 Advantage, since they are already invisible to all Sense Groups except the Mental one; FREd p. 168 under "Invisible Power Effects."

[tomd1969]

As for the Champs Hunting the Crowns of Krim, each of the Crowns has them as an individual Hunted, the whole team vs. one Crown, with the power of the Hunter rated on that basis: "More Powerful" for most of the Crowns, "As Powerful" for Dark Seraph (which tells you something right there). [/B]

:eek:

I saw that, and it just didn't register until you pointed it out. Each of these villains is powerful in a nearly-master-villain sorta way. Geez, I gotta really learn to look at *Point Totals* occasionally! :o

Okay, so maybe I should just have one or two show up. I want a challenge, not a slaughter. I kinda like Bloodstone--his ability to "smell" blood as a Targeting Sense is too cool to pass up. This character seems like it was designed for my group, which is a *bit* over-reliant on Darkness. I'd like to see the look on their faces when they realize that even in the Darkness he can still target them!

Time to do some homework! (in the good GM sense) :D

MWAH-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

[Edited for clarity]

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
In case you weren't aware of it, making Mental Powers Fully Invisible is only a +1/2 Advantage, since they are already invisible to all Sense Groups except the Mental one; FREd p. 168 under "Invisible Power Effects."

I think he was thinking of adding Hide Effects of Powers, which adds +1 to the costs. The current release of Heromaker has the total at +2 for the effect; the FAQ just mentions doubling the cost as per FREd p.169.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by OddHat
I think he was thinking of adding Hide Effects of Powers, which adds +1 to the costs. The current release of Heromaker has the total at +2 for the effect; the FAQ just mentions doubling the cost as per FREd p.169.

Ah, of course; Thanks. :)