150 Disavantage points too restrictive?

[TheAuthority]

So I've finally convinced my gaming group to play Champions Fifth Edition. We've had two 4th ed campaigns going off and on but I've wanted to play 5th since it's been out. It will also be my first time GMing Champions.

Anyway, this is the first time we'd actually be playing 200/150 point characters but they're bitching at me that 150 in disads is too restrictive to play. Is this the case? Or is it just that they don't want to roleplay all those points? They've suggested playing 250/100. Is this a good idea?

Any insight would be appreciated.

[OddHat]

Whatever works for your group. I've seen characters that end up with disadvantages that never show up in the campaign just to "fill up" their disads, an I've seen a lot of players agonizing over how to find that last 20 point disad. The question is are you as the GM going to work all of those disads into the game? If not, what's the point of requiring them?

You can make it easier on your players by providing a list of Hunteds, Vulnerabilities, DNPCs and Psych limits you'd like to see.

On the other hand, nothing major will be lost by letting them start with 50 points more or less, so long as you plan for it.

If any of them intentionally take meaningless disads, ask for a re-write.

[Hermit]

While it's not the "official" way to go, I sometimes allow some of my players to fill up only, say, a hundred points of their disads at first.... then as game play goes on, we add them on as makes sense. Hunteds, for example, are often quite easy to aquire during the course of a campaign. So, for ex. if Valiant REALLY pissed off Black Palidan during last week's gaming session, why not put Hunted 8- etc etc. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't see a problem giving the characters another 50 points if that's what you want to do (hive off some of the villain's disad's as well). Personally, I've never seen a lot of trouble covering off 150 points for most characters.

And you can always take only 100 points and have a 300 point character (yeah, THAT happens a lot!).

Most characters should be able to identify someone important to them who's not a super. Thwere's DNPC.

Distinctive features applies to a reasonable sub-group, and often to those for whom a DNPC is not appropriate.

How many heroes have no enemies? 30 points+ in Hunteds isn't tough to imagine. In our supers campaigns, virtually all characters have 2 or 3 GM-defined hunteds because you just don't know they're after you. If you want to save yourself some hassle, let the first scenario or two intrroduce a group Hunted (either before or because of the scenario events).

I generally find 50 points of psychological limits are easy if you have a handle on your character.

Social limitations (Secret ID, Public ID, etc.) are common genre staples.

Round it out with a few less common disadvantages applicable to the character (maybe he's gullible so takes 2x effect from Mental Illusions!) and 150 isn't that tough.

[RDU Neil]

Just think of Disadvantages as "Plot Hooks" They are there to tell stories with... useful to get the characters personally involved in a story... not necessarily to screw the character. Keep them in mind as a GM, but don't bring 'em into play unless it fits the story you are telling.

I also agree with allowing some points to float at the beginning... to be defined as the game goes along. Also allow Disads to change. If an original DNPC isn't interesting, but another one grows organically during the campaign... just switch 'em on the sheet.

Don't sweat disads. Have fun with them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
I also agree with allowing some points to float at the beginning... to be defined as the game goes along. Also allow Disads to change. If an original DNPC isn't interesting, but another one grows organically during the campaign... just switch 'em on the sheet.

Similarly, if the Hunted is getting stale, resolve it. The character can always make new enemies. How many long running comic characters have run out? ;)

[Lord Liaden]

This is good advice for the GM's part of the equation, but I have to say that as a player I've never really seen Disadvantages as a drawback. To me they've always represented opportunities for me to expand a character's background, further define his abilities and personality, and leave open some cool action and roleplaying possibilities that I'd enjoy playing out. I've tried to pick Disadvantages that really connect to the character's concept, and given them as much thought as Powers and Skills.

Perhaps if you pitch it to your players that way and challenge them to come up with interesting Disads, they might enjoy that part of the character building process more.

Or they might just tell you you're full of it. Chaotic creatures, players. ;)

[OddHat]

All characters who fail to take the full 150 points of disads will receive all remaining points in the form of compulsive behavoirs of the GM's choice. Possibilities:

1) Always wears underwear outside of pants, even in civillian ID.

2) Must try to recruit attractive teens as "sidekicks."

3) Insists on wearing costume under clothes at all times, regardless of weather conditions or what he or she is actually wearing.

4) Recites innermost thoughts in loud stage whispers.

5) Attributes all problems, even lost car keys or lack of exact change, to vast conspiracy lead by single meta-villain and/or Bill Clinton.

Your players will learn to choose their own disads.
:D

[TheAuthority]

Thanks for all the great input guys. I think the Players are so used to having 75 disads that they aren't really thinking creatively to use the 150. I'll whip 'em into shape.

[Doug McCrae]

I think 250/100 is a good idea. I've often had trouble filling those last 50 pts with disads that are right for the character. Alternatively go with Hermit's idea of adding disads, particularly Hunteds, as the campaign progresses.

[Starcorp Man]

Nope, 150 is far from restrictive. The original 250 game was 100 w/ 150 in disadvantages. A typical character is 50 points worth of Psych, Social of 15, 30 to 40 points in hunteds, that's roughly 105 there.

[TheAuthority]

Ok I think I'll allow any Player to take at least 100 points in Disads with the remaining 50 to be used as Character Points. However, any of these points used for CP's will be banked Disadvantage points to be written up as a 1-50 point Mystery Disadvantage. The Mystery being whatever I or the player to decide to use it for during the course of the campaign.

Great suggestions everyone.

[Zed-F]

One note: I'm assuming that you mean Mystery Disadvantages, plural. It can be hard to come up with a single 50-point disadvantage. :)

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Zed-F
One note: I'm assuming that you mean Mystery Disadvantages, plural. It can be hard to come up with a single 50-point disadvantage. :)
Much less one the character doesn't know about....

[TheAuthority]

Originally posted by Jeff
Much less one the character doesn't know about....
My game, my rules. ;)

Actually, the Mystery Disadvantage would be from multiple disads, not one large one. If someone had a 40 Mystery Disadvantage and then they gained a 10 Hunted they would now have a 30 Mystery Disadvantage left. But you're right, don't want to scare my players away! They'll nitpick anything.

[Hermit]

Heh... I can see it now.... a single 50 pt mystery disadvantage


"Okay, roll luck/unluck"
"Sure thing," The Player grabs for three 6 siders, only to see the GM pulling out ten of his own and setting them down to use as well.
"What's this?"
"The 10d6 you'll need for your mystery disadvantage... now roll, and we'll see if you can stop the doomsday device in time..."

:D

[Magmarock]

... if you can convice your Players that Disads aren't there merely to weaken their PCs.

Not wanting to take the full amount of Disads is like a reverse form of munchkinism. If a Player can't come up with enough acceptable Disads and also refuses to accept the GMs help in making the rest (i.e. doesn't want mystery disads either), then have the Player run a PC with fewer points. That is game balance.

Mags

[Phraze]

I think 150 pts. in disads seems more restricting in chargen than actual play. I agree, it's pretty easy to come up with 100-120, but then you start having to take multiple Hunteds, multiple DNPCs, random Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities just to eke out the remaining points. And sometimes Hunteds are hard to come up with, because the player may not know the GM's universe; who would make a good Hunted? That's what mystery disads are good for. The GM might have a perfect villain or organization that the players just don't know exists yet.

Part of it may be a trust issue. If you have 5 characters with 2-3 Hunteds and 1-2 DNPC's each, with an average roll of 11-, that's a lot of possible complications. And if the players think that all you're going to do is roll encounters randomly and have 7-10 Hunters and DNPC's wander into every supervillain battle, then you'll have trouble getting them to commit to those extra Hunteds. Mystery disads can help here, too, by making the players feel as if they don't have as much weight on their shoulders until they trust you to handle it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Mystery Hunteds are commonplace in our games - in fact, I can't remember the last time someone DID select their own Hunted.

Other mystery disad's are a bit tougher (how do you not KNOW about a physical limitation, for example, and if I don't know that little old lady is kindly old Aunt June, she's hardly my DNPC).

A lot of the comments are rock solid in their point that a lot of this comes down to trust in the GM. The bottom line there, however, is that I may as qell quit the game right now if I don't trust the GM. No matter how powerful my character, or what disadvantages I have, it's not hard for the GM to make my character useless if that's what he wants to do. After all, only one of us has unlimited points.

The catch is, a GM who can't be trusted runs a pretty lousy game, so he won't be a GM for long.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Phraze
I think 150 pts. in disads seems more restricting in chargen than actual play. I agree, it's pretty easy to come up with 100-120, but then you start having to take multiple Hunteds, multiple DNPCs, random Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities just to eke out the remaining points. And sometimes Hunteds are hard to come up with, because the player may not know the GM's universe; who would make a good Hunted? That's what mystery disads are good for. The GM might have a perfect villain or organization that the players just don't know exists yet.

In my game, on of my PCs was having the same problem in coming up with disads. He had, as a Hunted, "The gang of criminals that killed his family". Of course, my player left the name of the group unspecified, prefering me to fill in the blank with something that I deemed apprpriate to help it gel with my setting.

Also, Odd Hat had suggested that the GM make a list of disads that he'd like to see or that would be acceptable. While this is a lot more work on the GMs part, it's a great time saver in the long run, like pre-rolling damage. The Global Guardians PBEM webiste has a huge list of disads from which to draw inspiration.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Phraze
I think 150 pts. in disads seems more restricting in chargen than actual play. I agree, it's pretty easy to come up with 100-120, but then you start having to take multiple Hunteds, multiple DNPCs, random Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities just to eke out the remaining points. And sometimes Hunteds are hard to come up with, because the player may not know the GM's universe; who would make a good Hunted? That's what mystery disads are good for. The GM might have a perfect villain or organization that the players just don't know exists yet.

Part of it may be a trust issue. If you have 5 characters with 2-3 Hunteds and 1-2 DNPC's each, with an average roll of 11-, that's a lot of possible complications. And if the players think that all you're going to do is roll encounters randomly and have 7-10 Hunters and DNPC's wander into every supervillain battle, then you'll have trouble getting them to commit to those extra Hunteds. Mystery disads can help here, too, by making the players feel as if they don't have as much weight on their shoulders until they trust you to handle it. I think you hit it on the nail, Phraze. The players need to develop trust that the GM will use disads to enhance their enjoyment of the game. When a PC whups up on the Hunted who singles him or her out, the player knows that his character matters. Likewise, players need to use disads that make their PC three dimensional and real, not a cripple or campaign stopper. Most of our campaigns' Psych Lims and such never have to be called in by the GM as the players run their Superheroes with those personality characteristics "on" all the time.

[Theron]

Points are for sissies (http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh03pointlesschampions.htm) :D

[Adventus]

Theron, I read your article. This sounds like the way I have been running my campaign for years.One of the characters has gone thru at least 6 suits of power armor each more powerful than the last. One is combined with the head of a Mark VII Minuteman robot now. A potential oppenent for the game. Another found out how her Mech works. The players have been having fun playing in this campaign.
I am changing the campaign right now for more info see my topic closing the rift (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=7188)

[Theron]

Originally posted by Adventus
The players have been having fun playing in this campaign.


And ultimately, that's all that matters. We've just begun year four of our campaign, have saved the world twice, foiled the most powerful man in Fair City's plot to eliminate all superhumans from the planet, fought our evil duplicates on Counter-Earth, lost one player, added two more, and had a near-100% changeover in characters.

And the GM still hasn't issued a single Experience Point.

[Arthur]

When I first read the title of the thread, I thought you wanted to INCREASE the Disad point total to 200 or something. My reaction was "Huh? I have a hard time coming up with 150! If anything, you should go the OTHER way and have LESS Disad points!"

Obviously, that was what you meant, and I think it is a great idea. 150 points in Disads tends to lead toward taking Disads just for the points, not because it is really in character. Come on - we've all done it: "Let's see - either another Hunted or I have to lose the Omnigun...."

I'd go to 100 + 100 tops for my trademark "realistic supers" style, and 250 + 100 for a more standard Champions game.

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by TheAuthority
My game, my rules. ;)

Actually, the Mystery Disadvantage would be from multiple disads, not one large one. If someone had a 40 Mystery Disadvantage and then they gained a 10 Hunted they would now have a 30 Mystery Disadvantage left. But you're right, don't want to scare my players away! They'll nitpick anything.

Ohhh, I loooooove mystery disadvantages. I used to run GURPS and one player took me up on the "mystery disad" offer. One of his first opponents chopped off his left hand in a fight. I don't think Ward thought that One Hand could be a mystery disadvantage.

(But it was kind of nice to have the situation of a character with points in archery and only one hand. After all, no one who learns to shoot expects to have their hand chopped off, do they?)

[Starcorp Man]

We use the occasional mystery disadvantage. I don't know, I don't see 150 being that hard, most heroes in the books, comics that is, have easily that amount.

Example Spider Man (No specific timeline, a mixture from over the years."

Altruistic "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility": 20
Code vs Killing: 15
Irrelevent Wisecracker: 10
Overconfident: 5(10)
Hunted: Default Green Goblin 8-: 10
Hunted: Default Electro 8-: 10
Hunted: King Pin and Goons 8-: 20
Watched: Daily Bugle 11-: 10
Social Limitation: Secret Identity: 15
DNPC: Incomp 8- "Aunt May, Doesn't Know Social": 20
DNPC: Normal 11-"Mary Jane": 15
Wealth: Poor: 5
Reputation: Bad Rep, Menace 11-, Extreme: 15

That's 170 points in about 5 minutes, without Enrages, Susceptabilities and such, he would have at least a 1d6 of unluck, Distinctive Features: Mutant DNA, maybe a distinctive feature, rivalry. In the past the ones who complained about points were the ones who didn't want a disadvantage that actually effected them, would never touch a vulnerability or susceptability, unluck or any really bothersome disadvantage. I've had a guy in the past get 100 points out of a DNPC.

[zornwil]

Personally, I've rarely seen a 150 point disad (or more) character for which the 150 really amounted to that much in real disadvantages. Usually some sort of duplications - ulnerable: Water; Fear: Water - well hell if you're Vulnerable to it of course you "fear" it, that's not irrational at all or even any more limiting than your vulnerability is, unless you're going to be a dysfunctional nut-job about it. And lots of hunteds that if you added them up mean every single game would be about at least one and probably two hunteds.

So I tend to keep my disads at 50 points or so and give more points to start with, or start characters at lower levels and let them grow, getting experience and "0 point" disads or simply rotating out their disads as appropriate.

However, as much of the population here has stated, these are just really "background" points for most people's understanding (which sounds a lot like Gary is ranting about under ECs for "point for free"). In which case how ever you want to do it should be fine, since any character should have plenty of plot points even if not explicitly taken as disads (i.e., you're basically giving them a higher base for the saem effect, you're just not spelling out the plot hooks in advance).

Hermit's suggestion is pretty good as well and although I've never done it that way it's eminently logical. PCs do collect a lot of disads as they are played.

[JohnOSpencer]

Personally, I have absolutly no problem coming up with 150 points in disadvantages. The best way to get disadvantages(IMHO) is to put down the disadvantages you think fit the character, then explain your concept to the GM and let him make suggestions. In my campaign we also use "Quirks" ala GURPS.

You want difficult, the campaign I'm currently playing in uses 250 points of disadvantages. Now that is too many!

John Spencer

[Phraze]

3 observations about your example list of disads, Starcorp Man, because I think it illustrates my point as well.

1) Your list is based on a character with 20 years of continuity. His personality and supporting cast have had years to develop. In Spider-Man #1, only the Daily Bugle and Aunt May were around, for example, and his Overconfidence was an Inferiority Complex.

2) Your list has three Hunteds, a Watched, and two DNPC's. Even though they're only 8's and 11's, that means that at least one of those Hunteds/Watcheds will show up almost every session, and the DNPC's at least every other session. Hope you like those characters, and that the GM has a lot of imagination to keep them from getting stale really quickly (not to mention if 3-5 players all have that many). And God forbid the GM rolls hot and hits ALL of them at once. When I GM'ed, I stopped rolling Hunteds for this very reason, preferring to work them into plotlines in advance, just using the roll numbers as a guide to how often they appeared. But I don't claim to know how all GM's run their campaigns. Extreme example: Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk team up to fight the Sinister Six, when suddenly Kingpin and his goons, Electro, Mandarin, a knot of AIM agents, Loki, Absorbing Man, and the forces of Thunderbolt Base attack from all sides. And caught in the middle are Aunt May and Betsy Ross and...


30 If the campaign is new, the players may not have the kind of detailed knowledge of the campaign background to come up with 3-4 Hunteds or a Rivalry.

I'm not saying that 150 pts is crippling. I'm just saying that these are the kinds of concerns that players, especially players new to the system, might have. Mystery disads help, and GM handholding during the character creation process also helps, to make sure the backstory is filled in enough.

[Jeff]

My ex-wife used to plead for more disadvantages in play. The psychological limitations, Hunted's, and DNPC's she picked up were legendary.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Phraze
3 observations about your example list of disads, Starcorp Man, because I think it illustrates my point as well.


Ah but the GM arbitrates the use of all Disadvantages and determines if and how the hunteds are used, what happens with a DNPC, ect. If a hunted shows up for a session, you don't use him or her or it, if you don't want to, you can hold him for the next session, use the villian in the scenerio differently.

Also the sample was that, a 5 minute quick sample of what he could be, with 170 points worth with more to go, which people here have said is "too hard," or "don't fit the conception". Disadvantages can change over the course of a character's life and do, hell look at the FF they easily had 150 to begin with.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Phraze
3 observations about your example list of disads, Starcorp Man, because I think it illustrates my point as well.

1) Your list is based on a character with 20 years of continuity. His personality and supporting cast have had years to develop. In Spider-Man #1, only the Daily Bugle and Aunt May were around, for example, and his Overconfidence was an Inferiority Complex.

2) Your list has three Hunteds, a Watched, and two DNPC's. Even though they're only 8's and 11's, that means that at least one of those Hunteds/Watcheds will show up almost every session, and the DNPC's at least every other session. Hope you like those characters, and that the GM has a lot of imagination to keep them from getting stale really quickly (not to mention if 3-5 players all have that many). And God forbid the GM rolls hot and hits ALL of them at once. When I GM'ed, I stopped rolling Hunteds for this very reason, preferring to work them into plotlines in advance, just using the roll numbers as a guide to how often they appeared. But I don't claim to know how all GM's run their campaigns. Extreme example: Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk team up to fight the Sinister Six, when suddenly Kingpin and his goons, Electro, Mandarin, a knot of AIM agents, Loki, Absorbing Man, and the forces of Thunderbolt Base attack from all sides. And caught in the middle are Aunt May and Betsy Ross and...


30 If the campaign is new, the players may not have the kind of detailed knowledge of the campaign background to come up with 3-4 Hunteds or a Rivalry.

I'm not saying that 150 pts is crippling. I'm just saying that these are the kinds of concerns that players, especially players new to the system, might have. Mystery disads help, and GM handholding during the character creation process also helps, to make sure the backstory is filled in enough.

I've seen references, I think in 5th even, to things like "just because a Hunted is rolled doesn't mean they're doing anything "visible", they may be plotting or doing something subtle" (not a direct quote). That's always seemed pretty lame to me. I don't roll up Hunteds as per the book, either, I also use the numbers as a guideline.

[Hermit]

If I recall the suggestions in the rulebooks, the 'typical' 350 pt character in Champions is assumed to have a few years under his super hero belt. Therefore, Unless the GM and player want it otherwise; we're not talking about a super (or Spidey, since we're using him as an example) at his 'start' anyways :)

[Starcorp Man]

Alright Spiderman at start:

DNPC: Incomp 11- "Aunt May, Doesn't Know": 20
DNPC: Normal 8- "Gwen Stacey, Doesn't Know": 15 (or Betty Grant)
Social Limitation: Nerd: 10
Social Limitation: Secret Identity: 15
Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing: 15
Psychological Limitation: Altruistice, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility": 20
Psychological Limitation: Wisecracker: 10
Psychological Limitation: Underconfident: 5
Hunted: Daily Bugle 11- : 10
Hunted: NYPD 8-, Mild: 10 (The fact that due to the Bugle from the beginning, Spiderman was hailed as a menace and thew NYPD wanted to bring him in, the officers milage may vary)
Rivalry: Flash Thompson: 10 (Especially for Gwens affection, would Bully Parker constantly)
Unluck: 2d6: 10
Distinctive Features: Mutant DNA: 10
Money: Poor: 5

165, beginning of Career Spiderman, and you could add the Chameleon as a hunted, since he was the first spiderman villain he tangled with, and as Hermit states 350 characters are experienced characters.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
Alright Spiderman at start:

DNPC: Incomp 11- "Aunt May, Doesn't Know": 20
DNPC: Normal 8- "Gwen Stacey, Doesn't Know": 15 (or Betty Grant)
Social Limitation: Nerd: 10
Social Limitation: Secret Identity: 15
Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing: 15
Psychological Limitation: Altruistice, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility": 20
Psychological Limitation: Wisecracker: 10
Psychological Limitation: Underconfident: 5
Hunted: Daily Bugle 11- : 10
Hunted: NYPD 8-, Mild: 10 (The fact that due to the Bugle from the beginning, Spiderman was hailed as a menace and thew NYPD wanted to bring him in, the officers milage may vary)
Rivalry: Flash Thompson: 10 (Especially for Gwens affection, would Bully Parker constantly)
Unluck: 2d6: 10
Distinctive Features: Mutant DNA: 10
Money: Poor: 5

165, beginning of Career Spiderman, and you could add the Chameleon as a hunted, since he was the first spiderman villain he tangled with, and as Hermit states 350 characters are experienced characters.

If you're playing "points for concept", fine, but I definitely wouldn't find that these add up in terms of the actual disdvantage to Parker/Spiderman issue-to-issue, unless you do the soft-peddle "it doesn't have to actually directly disadvantage him when it comes up".

But, yeah, this is HERO canon. I just don't like it.

[Starcorp Man]

Those are the disadvantages her would have for the Ditko years, up to issue 38, that's over three years of comics, and even after they really didn't change much until the mid 70's, hell Parker wasn't in College until the 80's.

Every disadvantage doesn't have to cripple the character at every turn, your not supposed to use every advantage every adventure. The origanl thought was 150 being too restrictive, it's not.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
Those are the disadvantages her would have for the Ditko years, up to issue 38, that's over three years of comics, and even after they really didn't change much until the mid 70's, hell Parker wasn't in College until the 80's.

Every disadvantage doesn't have to cripple the character at every turn, your not supposed to use every advantage every adventure. The origanl thought was 150 being too restrictive, it's not.

Yeah, but if you go by frequencies, that's a lot in every game, too much methinks if they are supposed to "disadvantage" the player when they come up.

[Phraze]

I think one of the points I was trying to make, and not very well, is that we're talking about players creating characters for a campaign that hasn't started yet. I'm just coming back to gaming from a long absence, so I don't know how things work nowadays, but (Abe Simpsons's voice here) "in my day" characters didn't create character backgrounds in this much depth. The old Enemies books had a couple of paragraphs at most to cover origin and personalities. Some players may be a bit reticent about creating a huge supporting cast for fear of stepping on the GM's toes (the player creates a gang of neighborhood kids as DNPC's when the GM intends to make a globe-spanning campaign with the heroes in an airborne floating base). Yes, the GM has final say on the disads, but at this point, you're turning preparation for the game into a pretty long chore. Sometimes, you just want to whip up a character and go, and fill in the blanks as the campaign develops and you get a better feel for the world.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Phraze
I think one of the points I was trying to make, and not very well, is that we're talking about players creating characters for a campaign that hasn't started yet. I'm just coming back to gaming from a long absence, so I don't know how things work nowadays, but (Abe Simpsons's voice here) "in my day" characters didn't create character backgrounds in this much depth. The old Enemies books had a couple of paragraphs at most to cover origin and personalities. Some players may be a bit reticent about creating a huge supporting cast for fear of stepping on the GM's toes (the player creates a gang of neighborhood kids as DNPC's when the GM intends to make a globe-spanning campaign with the heroes in an airborne floating base). Yes, the GM has final say on the disads, but at this point, you're turning preparation for the game into a pretty long chore. Sometimes, you just want to whip up a character and go, and fill in the blanks as the campaign develops and you get a better feel for the world.

Good point, and I hasten to say so only because so often most people seem down on that approach these days. There's nothing wrong at all with it and as you say it has plenty of virtues - among them you don't end up retconning half the character background after the game begins.

Admittedly, I'm a sucker for detailed elaborate backgrounds and I give points for those, and I do like to get more than the vanilla background. But there should be a big respect for what you stated.