Religious Super Heros PC or otherwise

[Hermit]

Another thread got me to thinking a bit about religious super heroes. They do occur in comic books. Some it barely gets mentioned, some few are quite devout in their faith. Examples that come to mind are Nightcrawler, Firebird, and Daredevil. Both Kitty Pryde and Ben Grim are Jewish.

Within Champions own Universe, we get a plethora of infernal and dark villains to twhart and confound our heroes. While a brief mention is made in the CU book itself on relations between super heroes and religions, there are few if any superheroes that seem to have faith in their lives.

Some would see it as too serious a thing to tackle for games like this, others would see it as totally unimportant so I can understand why it doesn't get broached much.

Still, I have to ask if anyone has used such things in their games? Either for NPCs, or for a PC?

The only player in my group who has such a character has a mentalist. That character happens to be a Pagan, and took the name "Wytch".

I know someone on these forums (I think Storn) has played a Muslim character. D-Man has a Jewish character (Anthem I believe?) and so on.

How much or little does your typical super human in your campaign (or game if you are a player) let his/her faith affect his/her life especially AS a super hero?

[Enforcer84]

Not much really.

Organized religion and myself are often on separate pages. However, I have made a few NPC's with heavy religious leanings. I lack knowledge about religions to make them "authentic" I believe, but at least I no longer relegate religion to the dark side (out right evil & Corrupt, or insane and prejudiced).

[McCoy]

I have had players play Christian, Wiccan, and Satanist characters. My characters tend to be either agnostic or Buddhist. Right now I'm working on some fanfic with Marvel's Legion, David Charles Haller Xavier, who is a devout Sunni Muslem and lassez faire Jewish at the same time. The wonders of multiple personalities.

[Rook]

In my current game I play a character whose actions are dictated by strongly held religious beliefs. He is a living shadow and has some very strange beliefs that I'm slowly dropping hints about. I would say more but other members of my group post here and I'd prefer not to spoil the surprise.

In the past I've had a character who was a disciple of a paranormal claiming to be Christ (he was later revealed to be a fraud).

[GestaltBennie]

I've had a fair number of religious PCs; my longest standing PC had his faith affirmed after a visit to a comic book style Hell. Heck. even my PC in the PBeM that I'm in with Hermit is a practicing Mennonite, though with his chronic swearing, promiscuity, and psychotic episodes it's often hard to see his faith. :-)

Scott Bennie

[GenreFiend]

DC Comics had Zauriel, an honest-to-God Angel as a member of the JLA for a while. I've also played Angel PCs in a few games. Two of my characters were Catholic priests, and I had one guy in a Shadowrun game who spent most of his down-time in confession. Most of my characters tend to be non-Bible-thumping, laid back Christians with some Pagan influences (kind of like me;) ). My big question is: given the encounters with demons, spirits, and out-right miracles, how can any comic book or RPG character NOT have religious faith of some kind? I also always wondered: why isn;t everyone in the Marvel Universe an Odinist? I mean, Thor is right freaking there for anyone to see!

[Trebuchet]

My character Zl'f is devoutly Russian Orthodox, and I try to play her that way as best I can within the bounds of my admittedly limited understanding of Russian Orthodoxy.

She wears a Russian Orthodox crucifix even in costume.

Mentor's current character, Prodigy, is an ordained Roman Catholic priest; in fact he was a founding member of the Knights Templar.

[Christougher]

My entry in the religious faith category is Darkchilde, a Goth who's rather a lot like Benny from the Mummy - one of every religious icon - except for one thing. 20 pt Psych Lim: True Believer.

She's on the New Orleans superhero team, along with a vampire, werewolf and fairy...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Christougher
My entry in the religious faith category is Darkchilde, a Goth who's rather a lot like Benny from the Mummy - one of every religious icon - except for one thing. 20 pt Psych Lim: True Believer.

She's on the New Orleans superhero team, along with a vampire, werewolf and fairy... That's almost got to be the Noir campaign here inEl Paso. :) Are you the same Chris who sat in at our MidGuard adventure a couple of months ago (The one at Dale & Loren's house)?

Just out of curiosity, what kind of difficulties does "True Believer" cause for Darkchilde? And how the heck can she "truly believe" a half dozen religions? :confused:

[Lord Liaden]

As a player and GM, I can't say that religion has been a significant factor for player characters in my games. Perhaps I just tend to hang out with heathens ;) , but I can't remember anyone creating a character for whom religious faith was a major motivator.

OTOH, NPCs with strong religious views are not uncommon in my campaigns. For example, some time ago I developed a group briefly mentioned in the first edition Champions Universe supplement, "The Right Hand," who protect the Middle East. All are devout Muslims, and some believe that their powers are divine gifts. Then there are the characters with extreme religious views which lead to extreme actions, like Nimbus, a self-proclaimed "avenging angel" who punishes the "sinful" a la the Harbinger of Justice.

Purely for game purposes I adopted the theological conceit that Dean Shomshak proposed in The Ultimate Super Mage: deities are given form and substance through the belief of their mortal worshippers, and sustained and empowered by that worship. Hence all the gods of myth, and conceptions of godhead in modern religions, as well as their antithetical opposites like devils, asuras, titans and jotuns, do or did exist; but none of them is the true supreme deity. So it was perfectly possible for demons and angels to be NPCs or even PCs, although no one in my groups ever took that option.

Since I made it clear that this conceit applied only to the game world, nobody had a problem with it.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Heck. even my PC in the PBeM that I'm in with Hermit is a practicing Mennonite, though with his chronic swearing, promiscuity, and psychotic episodes it's often hard to see his faith. :-)

Scott Bennie

For some reason, that's almost too scary beyond words :)

[RDU Neil]

The political and social implications of organized religion being either supported or undermined by the wild reality of a superhero universe has always been a factor in my games. The Catholic Church and it's use of devout paranormals is a major theme, currently. It began years ago, when a player made up a swashbuckling swordsman type, who was a devout Catholic wielding the Sword of God... a rapier that could cut through anything. Great character, Argentinian, who became a world renown celebrity to the masses of Catholics around the world... but was struggling secretly with the corrupt machinations of secret Papal organizations.

Of course, this doesn't even begin to address the fact that at least one PC is in the process of developing a religion around himself as a god who will save humanity.

I love messing with belief systems. It generates great role playing. Then again, in my world, organized religion and Republicans are inherently evil, and... oh yeah... same in the real world too. ;)

[johnflang]

In the Champions games I play in religion is not a factor. However, in the Hero games set in modern/fantsy time, religion has/does play a role depending on the campaign. The fantasy is obvious with clerics. Modern horror can make a person religious real quick.

In one campaign I play a author who is a lapsed Christian. After getting sent back in time and mistaken for a holy man and help raising King Arthur, he is now a more devout Christian.

Religion in superhero with my groups is not common. In other genres it can show up in unexpected ways.

[McCoy]

Should also mention that my games take place in an alternate Marvel universe, one player did worship Apocalypse as a god, another was a time traveler (and Magneto's great-great-granddaughter) who had a religion founded by Sam Guthre worshiping Professor X, Magneto, Cable and Apocalypse.

[OddHat]

The Catholic church has been the center of several of my campaigns, and cults are favorite villain groups; wiccan and other pagan covens have played parts as well. There have been a few good and evil Jewish, Hindu, Shinto and Islamic groups as well. Plenty of Voodoo / ritual magic practitioners too. Magic is almost inseperable from religion after you get past the most surface level comic book or modern fantasy treatments of the subject; I can't imagine having a magic heavy campaign without religious themes.

As to current characters, one player is running a dimension hopping Jewish ex-atronaut, one is running a practitioner of Taoist magic, and I've had Catholic priests, Shinto priests and Rabbis in recent campaigns.

So a Priest, a Rabbi, and a Voodoo Hogun walk into a Viper nest...

[lemming]

Can't say too many of my characters have had any sort of set beliefs.
Though one campaign had practically all alien characters worshipping the god of electricity. Who was a PC in a future game, but had gone to the past briefly. One of the other PCs started the Church. The other players ran with it.
I don't do much with religion probably because it can be a touchy subject. A couple of my characters have religious backgrounds, but none are devout.

[Cybernaut]

Unless it's a substantial part of their character concept, the religious aspect either doesn't come up or is just an interresting footnote somewhere in their dossier. If religion does come up in a campaign I try to treat the subject as evenhandedly as possible since I've gamed with people from a wide range of backgrounds. Same rule applies to politics.

[Myrmidon]

Interesting responses so far.

I ran a pbem around an offical Catholic superhuman team for a short time. My approach was pretty simple, that for all the individual failings, cockups, career builders, and idiots, the Church tries to do the right thing. Of course being large and powerful attracts lots of nasty attention.

My reponse was grab the Order of Malta (the Hospitalers under their latest brand name 8) and make a superhero team from it. Already plenty of fancy uniforms, spiffy traditions, shiny boots and legal right to declare war 8) [A benefit of being signatories to a whole whack load of treaties and keeping around, its difficult to prove that they aren't sovereign when 19th century powers treated them like they were]

Of course the main focus was protecting the Vatican and Rome from evil villians, but I was managing to try and include a little political scheming in too. 8)

As for my personal experiences playing religious heros, its the small things that count, that and using it to really fill in background.

[Graviton]

Religion doesn't come up a whole lot in our games, but it does occasionally. One of my wife's PCs is a very devout Navajo, a mutant/shaman who has major-league healing abilities. I ran a small sub-plot involving the victim of a plane crash whom she healed. He equated her power to heal with that of Christ and formed a cult to worship her. Great roleplaying! It caused her to become extremely judicious in her use of that power. Which in turn caused the PC team leader to squawk because he could no longer just rush in with guns blazing and not worry about getting hurt. Hehehehe....

I also run a Dark Champions campaign deeply steeped in voodoo. The PC, Deathwatch, wears a mask created years ago in a dark ceremony that containes the souls of several hundred people. His primary nemesis is based in New Orleans and is constantly throwing zombies and other voodoo-themed threats his way.

In other words, except for my cult sub-plot, we basically deal with "comic book" religion, rather than real-world religious issues. :)

[assault]

Originally posted by GenreFiend
My big question is: given the encounters with demons, spirits, and out-right miracles, how can any comic book or RPG character NOT have religious faith of some kind?

Even if the existence of such things is indisputable, it doesn't follow that any of these demons and spirits are worth worshipping or treating as anything other than something dangerous that is best avoided.

"Demons? Yeah, I've run into things that claimed to be demons. I don't know what they really are. I don't really care."

Alan

[Lightray]

Way back, we had one character -- Seraph -- who was supposed to be an angelic being. She was a minister in her secret ID, no particular denomination (Unitarian angel, I guess). Her player did a fair job of portraying her religious vocation in her character's off time.

Now that we've restarted the campaign over 10 years later, that character is gone, but we now have a Zoroastrian "angel" -- Fire Angel -- in the game. I haven't devoted much campaign time to off-duty activities, as it were. And that's a good thing -- both the player and I found out we knew very little about the Zoroastrian religion.

Fortunately, I already had the "comic metaphysics" worked out for Seraph, so it was easy to fit Fire Angel in.

[Blue]

The PCs do not seem to be religious at all. In fact, last game an NPC asked them, "Do you believe in God?" And only one character fessed up. My primary NPC for that game is Catholic, mostly because it gave her some color.

This is going to come out wrong, but generally speaking, the villains are more religious than the heroes in my campaign. Of course one of he heroes probably worships Horus. That count?

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Blue
Of course one of he heroes probably worships Horus. That count?

Yes. :)

[Trebuchet]

Since simple things like going to church and shopping for groceries generally take place "off camera" in superhero campaigns, they probably don't impact most campaigns much. I would generally expect superheroes to reflect to some extent the religiousness of their nation or culture, although obviously that won't always be true. American heroes would be more probably typically religious than European ones, but not by any huge margin.

On our team, MidGuard:

Zl'f - Russian Orthodox (Devout)
Cyberknight - Protestant, probably Lutheran (Casual)
Prodigy - Roman Catholic (Devout, a priest)
Sidestep - Protestant, probably Lutheran or Presbyterian(Casual)
Eagle Eye - Unknown, probably Buddhist
Catseye - Roman Catholic (Casual)
Thunderbird - Avatar of an Apache diety (REAL religious, a shaman)
Silhouette - Unknown, probably Protestant (Casual)

We're probably more religious than most teams (or players for that matter!) :p

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Lightray
Way back, we had one character -- Seraph -- who was supposed to be an angelic being. She was a minister in her secret ID, no particular denomination (Unitarian angel, I guess). Her player did a fair job of portraying her religious vocation in her character's off time.

Now that we've restarted the campaign over 10 years later, that character is gone, but we now have a Zoroastrian "angel" -- Fire Angel -- in the game. I haven't devoted much campaign time to off-duty activities, as it were. And that's a good thing -- both the player and I found out we knew very little about the Zoroastrian religion.

Fortunately, I already had the "comic metaphysics" worked out for Seraph, so it was easy to fit Fire Angel in. Mmm, yeah. Isn't fire evil in Zoroastrianism? It's either fire=evil and earth=good, or perhaps the other way around. I forget.

[zornwil]

Religion doesn't come up much in my campaigns and I prefer to keep it that way. I've had the Catholic church involved in a couple conspiracy things in the past though, and in my current campaign the local Catholic church is sort of an oddball messenger for all sorts of things, but it's deliberately muddy as to whether that means the church has any real ties to those efforts (and as those efforts are contradictory, it's questionable that they would). Fringe ritualistic organizations have come up though in the more "traditional" ways they're treated in conspiracy/UFO texts.

As far as PCs I don't recall any really in campaigns I've GMed. My PC in a game is religious in his way (Native American mysticism) but mostly it stays in a friendly-but-serious "competition" of sorts with the scientist character, and commentary on the other characters' misguided "modern" ways. Because the character himself is pretty misinformed, though, it's not that serious overall, and (I think/hope) it is played in a way that doesn't reflect on any Native American beliefs in real life.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by zornwil
(I think/hope) it is played in a way that doesn't reflect on any Native American beliefs in real life.

This is an important point. I currently have one born again Christian player, and I've had mildly or very religious players from other faiths in the past. I try to treat religion respectfully in my games, and Comic Book style I avoid any final commitments to "Truth" one way or another. That said, there are tons of great demonic villains and supernatural plotlines out there, and I just can't see having campaigns with hell(s) but without heaven(s).

Horror movies have no such problem, but that's not the genre I run... ;)

[Jhamin]

We have an out-and-out Angel trapped in mortal form as a PC in my game.

She is very evasive when people ask her about questions of dogma, but reassures everyone that there is someone watching.

[death tribble]

Haven't we talked about this before ?

I had a witch who was being trained to use magic. Her parents were murdered by Satanists and she had been enchanted by her grandfather to have the power to use vast amounts of magic. After she was caught by the Pentacle, the campaign's evil equivalent to DEMON, half her soul was taken away and the other half used with a demon. She became very religious after that. She has seen that the evil side existed therefore the good side shoul to.

The second one was Archangel. She came from a timeline where the Germans won WW2 and dropped the Atomic Bomb on Coventry. She was at ground zeo and God gave her the chance to return and fight evil so she did. After the timeline was returned to normal (Hexenmeister used the Spear of Destiny to change time), Archangel was thought dead. Her real ID in the normal world had been killed trying to save lives in the Blitz on Coventry. However she lated returned to battle evil when more dimensional cross over villains attacked and created havoc with the time lines.

[Christougher]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
That's almost got to be the Noir campaign here inEl Paso. :) Are you the same Chris who sat in at our MidGuard adventure a couple of months ago (The one at Dale & Loren's house)?

Just out of curiosity, what kind of difficulties does "True Believer" cause for Darkchilde? And how the heck can she "truly believe" a half dozen religions? :confused:

Guilty as charged.

It certainly influences her behavior even when it's not directly difficult. Then again, walking into a den of vampires proved to be a little unnerving for *both* sides.

A little of the confusion probably stems from the player's lack of understanding of multiple religions, but so long as a Power exists, she believes and tries to obey their tenets. Which means a lot of time in penance, usually. She hasn't directly faced the the discrepancy between multiple "I am the only" types. She's not sure if there's just One acting as many, or that some of them are flawed.

While she's a pretty fun character, she is kinda difficult to play for those reasons.

[Lightray]

Originally posted by Lupus
Mmm, yeah. Isn't fire evil in Zoroastrianism? It's either fire=evil and earth=good, or perhaps the other way around. I forget.
Zoroastrians are often referred to as "fire-worshippers", though that is more of a misinterpretation of their beliefs.

So, fire = good.

Dunno about earth = evil. Things with "bad" connotations tend to be corpses, ashes, and so forth.

[mattingly]

I currently have one born again Christian player

For your player (and any others interested), I recommend checking out The Christian Gamers Guild, at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2964/

I've even got a Christian superhero (Samaritan) written up in their ezine The Way The Truth And The Dice.

[Ghost who Walks]

Religions:

I use a mixture of Real world, and some comic stuff. I have had so many different gods of various type show up over the years, I have trouble keeping track of them. I never did them the way they are done in the comics, though.

An example is the Greek Pantheon existed, in history, and mythology...but they were founded by a time traveller (who happened to be a PC). Kronos/Saturn = God of time, get it?

Odin of course, was a human turned into a cyborg by aliens, millenia ago. One eye? Super senses? Magical knowledge? Can travel to other worlds? Claims that the world will be destroyed (Rangarok, the aliens could see the future, of course.)

Conventional religions are also present. One character statred off as a moderate muslim, but then kept running into evil magic-using types. For some reason, the exil magic users seemed to be common in protestant countries. He became practically an islamic militant, so far as fighting magic was concerned.

Another character has conections to a secret Catholic order of nuns, who travel around fighting occult menaces with automatic weapons. (What can I say, 2 years of Catholic school)

I once had an alien invasion, where as part of the terms of the treaty, the invaders were baptized by the Pope. Why? In my campaign, some governments claim that extraterrestrials aren't entitled to the same rights as humans (So they can lock them up and steal their stuff) :)

There are also a couple of ancient dragons around, who have cults. They claim to be able to grant magical powers to their faithful. It was one of the ways you can get magic in my campaign.

I never cared much for the "comic book demon" from "dimension X". Religion should never be portrayed as a certain, defenite thing, in my opinion.

Best religious character in the Hero Universe is Brother Bone, of the Devils Advocates (Horror Hero)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Lightray
Zoroastrians are often referred to as "fire-worshippers", though that is more of a misinterpretation of their beliefs.

So, fire = good.

Dunno about earth = evil. Things with "bad" connotations tend to be corpses, ashes, and so forth.

Not certain, but I think they go with an 'Darkness/Cold=Evil" to counterbalance the "Light/Fire=Good"

[Hermit]

Since he's now a free sample, here was one of my attempts to do a devout religious super hero named Steadfast (http://www.herogames.com/digitalHero/Samples/dh13namethehero_steadfast.htm) .

[Stephen Mann]

Religion doesn't play a part in my game world, except for one background detail.

In my world, the pope has a trio of metahuman bodyguards. They're all vaguely brickish with other abilities. They claim their powers come from God. Various people have tested them, and the best that can be said is that their auras are somewhat magical, but mages can't identify it.

Since they're not really a superhero team, they don't have a team name (they, and the Church, insist on that point). Nonetheless, most people call them The Trinity.

[Elysea]

One of my characters is a Japanese Shinto warrior/priest. His ancestors in feudal Japan were strong in the ways of kami (spirit) magic, but the ability had slowly waned in his lineage for centuries until suddenly resurfacing in him.

[BishopofB&W]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
The political and social implications of organized religion being either supported or undermined by the wild reality of a superhero universe has always been a factor in my games. The Catholic Church and it's use of devout paranormals is a major theme, currently. It began years ago, when a player made up a swashbuckling swordsman type, who was a devout Catholic wielding the Sword of God... a rapier that could cut through anything. Great character, Argentinian, who became a world renown celebrity to the masses of Catholics around the world... but was struggling secretly with the corrupt machinations of secret Papal organizations.

Of course, this doesn't even begin to address the fact that at least one PC is in the process of developing a religion around himself as a god who will save humanity.

I love messing with belief systems. It generates great role playing. Then again, in my world, organized religion and Republicans are inherently evil, and... oh yeah... same in the real world too. ;)


Oh, yeah? Um, um, well in my world Democrats have sold their souls to the devil and moderates are doing it on the installment plan while gawdless communists eat away at our country's foundations like termites! Just like in Washington, D.C.! :p

On a slightly more serious note, there's the comic Warrior Nun Areala by Antarctic Press. The creator once said that he got petitioned by a NYC order of nuns that practice karate and tai kwon do(WE:Ruler?). They objected to Areala's revealing habit. He eventually changed it.
Didn't those nuns have any compassion for the world's nun fetishists?:)

[Isaiah_26_4]

Chello!

Had a few religious supers over the years.

There was Salvation--he was a Protestant flying e-blaster. In his secret id who was a televangelist. Retired after killing a werewolf that turned out to be a teenager.

Archangel--the avatar of St Michael Archangel--flyer with wings, muy kewl flaming sword and armor.

Isaiah 26: 4--another Catholic, this one a fairly standard brick. That said, except for Archangel's interactions with the Vatican, my GMs have pretty much ignored religion outside of the bad guys, like DEMON, Dark Seraph, ec.

feh.

Tony

[Maccabe]

Actually I took the character Espirita, from West Coast Avengers and made a Jewish version.
In real life he was ; Rabbi Judah Ben Jacob
In hero form (yep you guessed it); Maccabe

Then there's always the Satanic cults. (too many to name in Marvel)
Then there was Dr Druid, I think he worshipped Gaea.

Hey how about Thor, Hercules etc. There are a whole bunch of people in Marvel who are considered gods (and some of them have followers)

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Isaiah_26_4
Isaiah 26: 4--another Catholic, this one a fairly standard brick. That said, except for Archangel's interactions with the Vatican, my GMs have pretty much ignored religion outside of the bad guys, like DEMON, Dark Seraph, ec.Nice Cross of Jerusalem avatar, Isaiah. Very classy looking. :)

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Maccabe

Hey how about Thor, Hercules etc. There are a whole bunch of people in Marvel who are considered gods (and some of them have followers)

Current Thor storylines - Spirals in Thor, Lord of Asgard, and Thor, Lord of Earth have an interesting twist on this. You need to go back a bit, otherwise the current issue will completely throw you.

[Glen Sprigg]

Well, I'm developing a team of Christian heroes (mainly Catholic, I suppose, but I haven't really made a denominational point of it).

* Archangel (think Thor, with a sword)
* Disciple (he'd be Zatanna with prayers instead of backwards-speak)
* Requiem (Batman-style vigilante)

The other members are St. Peter's Star (from Classic Organizations) and Steadfast (from the MC-8; thanks, Hermit!). I'm planning on developing a few others as well, to round out the team.

Glen

[Isaiah_26_4]

Chello!

Thank you, Trebuchet!

On topic, why do y'all think it is that GMs (and comics in general) tend to focus on the bad guys as religious (well, demons and the like) but usually fail to have religious heroes? There are of course exceptions like Nightcrawler, but they are the exception.

Tony

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by Isaiah_26_4
On topic, why do y'all think it is that GMs (and comics in general) tend to focus on the bad guys as religious (well, demons and the like) but usually fail to have religious heroes? There are of course exceptions like Nightcrawler, but they are the exception.

Tony

Well, this is all my opinion, naturally, but I'd say that it's easier to make someone who is offensive and religious than it is to make someone who is religious and doesn't manage to torque off some group. It's almost a no-brainer; take one closed-minded jerk, add superpowers and religion/philosophy/politics/whatever, and stir. If you grab your typical religious baddie, remove the religion, and take a look at them, you'll see that they're almost all obnoxious in ways that bear little to no relation to the religion in question or its current practicioners; the religion is nothing more than an "excuse" to be a slimeball.

Which, when you look at the world around us, makes a helluva lotta sense.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Isaiah_26_4
On topic, why do y'all think it is that GMs (and comics in general) tend to focus on the bad guys as religious (well, demons and the like) but usually fail to have religious heroes? There are of course exceptions like Nightcrawler, but they are the exception.It's important to recognize that there's a substantial difference between "being religious" like Nightcrawler and being "of a religion" like Thor or Hercules. With Nightcrawler, I think the comic writers mostly wanted to explore the dichotomy between his demonic looks and his faith. I also don't recall Nightcrawler as being particularly religious when he was first introduced in the 80's; his Catholicism was sort of mentioned in passing but wasn't a major issue. You'll also note that Nightcrawler as portrayed is virtually a religious fanatic; not really a typical Catholic. Most Catholics don't walk around with a rosary praying all the time (I know, I was raised Catholic and have been dating a devoutly Catholic woman for 22+ years). The movie version was even worse; Nightcrawler was mutilating himself whenever he sinned. This is a very medieval extremist version of Catholicism; one the Church itself opposed. Nightcrawler isn't religious in any real sense; he's more a caricature of a religious character. In essense, Nightcrawler is really more anti-religious because he's portrayed as a virtual nutcase.

Thor and similar characters are based on pagan dieties, but hardly act religious. ("All-Father Odin, helpeth me kicketh mine enemy's butt!" hardly constitutes praying. :) ) I think you'd need to look for characters based on current "real" religions' heroes and villains. DC's Azrael probably qualifies; I think he's supposed to actually be an angel.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Isaiah_26_4
Chello!

Thank you, Trebuchet!

On topic, why do y'all think it is that GMs (and comics in general) tend to focus on the bad guys as religious (well, demons and the like) but usually fail to have religious heroes? There are of course exceptions like Nightcrawler, but they are the exception.

Tony

While I agree with BR's comments, I'd add:

God is scary, and he's a campaign breaker.

Allow the traditional Christian God into your fiction or campaign, and you have to answer questions about why all of those demons and ghosts are running around. It's tough to do that and stay within traditional Judeo-Christian theology. It can be done (look at DC's Vertigo line) but it's tough, and you'll likely offend somebody.

People take God very seriously. In any published comic book or RPG offending people can equal lost sales. It can work the other way as well, but many publishers don't want to take the risk.

God is also scary. God means final judgement, and while Hollywood has turned that into a fluffy bunny easy ride, many traditional views of God will have you burning in Hell forever for failing to deeply and sincerely regret things that most non-traditionalists would consider to be normal human thoughts, emotions or behaviors.

Far more fun to have non-denominational Angels and Demons that can be overcome with a shotgun. ;)

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
It's important to recognize that there's a substantial difference between "being religious" like Nightcrawler and being "of a religion" like Thor or Hercules. With Nightcrawler, I think the comic writers mostly wanted to explore the dichotomy between his demonic looks and his faith. I also don't recall Nightcrawler as being particularly religious when he was first introduced in the 80's; his Catholicism was sort of mentioned in passing but wasn't a major issue. You'll also note that Nightcrawler as portrayed is virtually a religious fanatic; not really a typical Catholic. Most Catholics don't walk around with a rosary praying all the time (I know, I was raised Catholic and have been dating a devoutly Catholic woman for 22+ years). The movie version was even worse; Nightcrawler was mutilating himself whenever he sinned. This is a very medieval extremist version of Catholicism; one the Church itself opposed. Nightcrawler isn't religious in any real sense; he's more a caricature of a religious character. In essense, Nightcrawler is really more anti-religious because he's portrayed as a virtual nutcase.

Thor and similar characters are based on pagan dieties, but hardly act religious. ("All-Father Odin, helpeth me kicketh mine enemy's butt!" hardly constitutes praying. :) ) I think you'd need to look for characters based on current "real" religions' heroes and villains. DC's Azrael probably qualifies; I think he's supposed to actually be an angel.

As you descibed it - whcih is accurate in and of itself - it sounds like Nightcrawler's a nutcase, but I didn't feel that way from the movie. The way I felt from the movie portrayal, he's so alien in his mutation and that mutation dictates his reality be so different that self-mutilation (while by no means, as you say, espoused by Catholicism) seems like "merely" a decorative add-on, nothing more than what would be a tattoo to you or I. From the movie I felt he was rationale, devout, and troubled all at once, but not dysfunctional. HIs self-etchings were beautiful even as they were scars.

Bear in mind I never read anything of Nightcrawler in the comics.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
It's important to recognize that there's a substantial difference between "being religious" like Nightcrawler and being "of a religion" like Thor or Hercules. With Nightcrawler, I think the comic writers mostly wanted to explore the dichotomy between his demonic looks and his faith. I also don't recall Nightcrawler as being particularly religious when he was first introduced in the 80's; his Catholicism was sort of mentioned in passing but wasn't a major issue. You'll also note that Nightcrawler as portrayed is virtually a religious fanatic; not really a typical Catholic. Most Catholics don't walk around with a rosary praying all the time (I know, I was raised Catholic and have been dating a devoutly Catholic woman for 22+ years). The movie version was even worse; Nightcrawler was mutilating himself whenever he sinned. This is a very medieval extremist version of Catholicism; one the Church itself opposed. Nightcrawler isn't religious in any real sense; he's more a caricature of a religious character. In essense, Nightcrawler is really more anti-religious because he's portrayed as a virtual nutcase.

Thor and similar characters are based on pagan dieties, but hardly act religious. ("All-Father Odin, helpeth me kicketh mine enemy's butt!" hardly constitutes praying. :) ) I think you'd need to look for characters based on current "real" religions' heroes and villains. DC's Azrael probably qualifies; I think he's supposed to actually be an angel.

Hey, btw, Treb, what did you think of Ragman?

[JeffreyWKramer]

The street-level CHAMPIONS campaign I ran for about 3 years during the 90s featured some religion-themed characters, one a PC and the other two NPCs. It started with an NPC hero who was there to act as a potential rival, ally or balancing factor for the PCs, and to be sort of the opposite of the grim, dark characters who were so prevalent back then. Redeemer was a fundamentalist Christian who was essentially a very skilled athlete (gymnast, boxer and wrestler) who also had several dice of luck that only worked if he was certain of the righteousness of his cause, and which he considered "divine providence." He was openly Christian, even incorporating the cross into his costume, and was extremely law-abiding.

The presence of this character prompted one of the players to make his character, The Reverend. Essentially a religious version of Stick (Daredevil's mentor, from the Marvel comic), with a couple of low-level psychic powers and a mind link to his follower (a seeing-eye/attack dog), The Reverend was a blind street preacher who took a bit more active role than most in fighting street-level crime. He was also less dogmatic than Redeemer, leading to some memorable PC/NPC interaction along the lines of theological and philosophical debates, particularly since the Reverend wasn't beyond breaking the law to serve the greater good.

The third religion-themed character in the campaign was an NPC villain, Brother Night. He had a public persona as a minister and evangelist, the Reverend Thomas Knight, who spoke out against lawless vigilantes and other negative influences on society, but was also secretly the cult leader/vice kingpin Brother Night. In addition to being one of the Reverend's Hunteds, Reverend Knight/Brother Night served as a stand-in to corrupt, real-world religious figures who pose as moral watchdogs and stick their noses into others' business but aren't particularly moral themselves.

Anyhow, the religious themes didn't cause any problems as handled in that campaign. The players were all mature, and having someone represent religious POVs served to deepen the campaign, in everyone's opinion.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
It's important to recognize that there's a substantial difference between "being religious" like Nightcrawler and being "of a religion" like Thor or Hercules. With Nightcrawler, I think the comic writers mostly wanted to explore the dichotomy between his demonic looks and his faith. I also don't recall Nightcrawler as being particularly religious when he was first introduced in the 80's; his Catholicism was sort of mentioned in passing but wasn't a major issue.


While I agree about the dichotomy about his looks and faith, I recall quite a few good moments in the comics I read at that explored NC's religous side. (I thought he was introduced in the 70's myself-nitpick I know). Scenes I recall fondly were the X-Men battle against Dracula, where Kurt puts the hurt on Drac by taking two simple sticks and ramming them together in cross formation.

And the one where the Xmen are about to go into battle... Wolverine seeks out Nightcrawler, and finds him praying.

NIghtcrawler admits he is, and admits how oten times he seeks comfort from such. He then asks Wolverine if he believes, and if so in what? Wolverine's response is "Me? I believe in what I can touch, smell, taste." With an inference that there is nothing more beyond that.

Nightcrawler gives him a look of sympathy and says "ach, mein friend, I never realized how lonely you really were until now."

Wolverine scoffs, and goes "Who's lonely? I got you ain't I?"

And off they go.

I think the other purpose Nightcrawler had was to contrast was to Wolverine's cynicism and disabelief in things he could not sense, and in Storm's former 'goddess'hood.

Really, it depended on the writer , there were some that even had Nighcrawler's faith shattered later on, but I'd still put him as one of the first religious super heroes, and it never struck me as in a particularly 'bad' way :)

[GenreFiend]

Originally posted by Hermit
I'd still put him as one of the first religious super heroes, and it never struck me as in a particularly 'bad' way :) [/B]

I don't think you can qualify Nightcrawler as one of the first religious super-heroes. That's assuming that none of the Golden Age or earlier Silver Age heroes were religious. I think that NC was just one of the first ones where his religion was important to the story. In the 40's, it was just kind of assumed that most everybody was religious, and therefore it was just no big deal. But, when you're in Nightcrawler's situation, on a team like the X-Men (as opposed to, say, the JSA), then yeah, being devout makes you stand out from the crowd.

[starblaze]

Originally posted by OddHat
The Catholic church has been the center of several of my campaigns, and cults are favorite villain groups; wiccan and other pagan covens have played parts as well. There have been a few good and evil Jewish, Hindu, Shinto and Islamic groups as well. Plenty of Voodoo / ritual magic practitioners too. Magic is almost inseperable from religion after you get past the most surface level comic book or modern fantasy treatments of the subject; I can't imagine having a magic heavy campaign without religious themes.

As to current characters, one player is running a dimension hopping Jewish ex-atronaut, one is running a practitioner of Taoist magic, and I've had Catholic priests, Shinto priests and Rabbis in recent campaigns.

So a Priest, a Rabbi, and a Voodoo Hogun walk into a Viper nest...
LOL

[Hermit]

Originally posted by GenreFiend
I don't think you can qualify Nightcrawler as one of the first religious super-heroes. That's assuming that none of the Golden Age or earlier Silver Age heroes were religious. I think that NC was just one of the first ones where his religion was important to the story. In the 40's, it was just kind of assumed that most everybody was religious, and therefore it was just no big deal.

I'm not sure. I'm no expert on golden age comics, but I don't recall much praying or going through any religious situations for many super heroes. Everyone was supposedly patriotic, but we were seeing super heroes carry the flag or salute was wide out in the open as well. I'm not saying they weren't religious, but it was very 'off panel' and therefore we never really will know. You can assume all day, but that's all it would be. With Nightcrawler, we 'knew'.

[Cybernaut]

Not necessarily game related, but I have been writing a couple of short stories about angels and demons masquerading as people in the modern world. I'm just now putting the polish on the second installment, titled "Vortex". Trebuchet's recently read the first story and said I had an interesting take on things, though I will hardly presume to say my works of fiction are completely consistent with traditional protrayal of such beings.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Cybernaut
Trebuchet's recently read the first story and said I had an interesting take on things, though I will hardly presume to say my works of fiction are completely consistent with traditional protrayal of such beings.

Nor should they have to be. That would make for some very odd fiction. :)

[Cybernaut]

Originally posted by OddHat
Nor should they have to be. That would make for some very odd fiction. :)
That's very true, though I do at least try to give my characters the kind of personalities and attitudes I believe they should logically have.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by zornwil
Hey, btw, Treb, what did you think of Ragman? Who? :confused:

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hermit
Really, it depended on the writer , there were some that even had Nighcrawler's faith shattered later on, but I'd still put him as one of the first religious super heroes, and it never struck me as in a particularly 'bad' way :) NC's "nuttiness" wasn't portrayed in such light in the X-Men comics. As you pointed out, his faith was more low-key in the comics. Religion is usually subtle; it doesn't need to hit you between the eyes. But his portrayal in the X-Men 2 movie was a bit over the top. When he started mutilating himself, he departed Catholic doctrine (My Catholic girlfriend won't even have her ears pierced; and she was furious when her daughter did.) and came across as a nut. Don't get me wrong, Nightcrawler was by far the most three-dimensional and sympathetic character in either X-Men movie; vastly superior to the cardboard cutouts of Storm, Cyclops and Jean Grey.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Who? :confused:

Jewish super-hero who's been around a bit now and again, I don't think he's been taken up by a writer in like 10 years though. Very religiously oriented story and his powers are based on some Jewish religious traits. I just wondered if you'd read him and what you'd thought given your comments.

Another one that comes to mind was Ostrander's version of Spectre, which dealt with the theological issues ignored in prior Spectre incarnations. Generally pretty good work.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Hermit
I'm not sure. I'm no expert on golden age comics, but I don't recall much praying or going through any religious situations for many super heroes. Everyone was supposedly patriotic, but we were seeing super heroes carry the flag or salute was wide out in the open as well. I'm not saying they weren't religious, but it was very 'off panel' and therefore we never really will know. You can assume all day, but that's all it would be. With Nightcrawler, we 'knew'.

Is this the part of the script where I mention that Plastic Man had a basically religious origin during the VERY early part of the Golden Age? Granted the words "God" or "Jesus" aren't used, but it's the classic story of redemption... And I'm talking the original Jack Cole origin, not that stupid retrocon in which he flips a coin to decide whether he's a good guy or a villain.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
Is this the part of the script where I mention that Plastic Man had a basically religious origin during the VERY early part of the Golden Age? Granted the words "God" or "Jesus" aren't used, but it's the classic story of redemption... And I'm talking the original Jack Cole origin, not that stupid retrocon in which he flips a coin to decide whether he's a good guy or a villain.

But I think the point of this thread is overtly religious chaacters. The Golden Age didn't produce much, if any, in the way of that.

PM was in a religious hospital (or something similar) and "saw the light", but as you say it was presumed that people should do so then. It's not like he went out afterwards and said, "I'm going to do the Lord's work" and we saw that as a theme in the comic. Instead he became "a hero", doing "good".

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by zornwil
But I think the point of this thread is overtly religious chaacters. The Golden Age didn't produce much, if any, in the way of that.

PM was in a religious hospital (or something similar) and "saw the light", but as you say it was presumed that people should do so then. It's not like he went out afterwards and said, "I'm going to do the Lord's work" and we saw that as a theme in the comic. Instead he became "a hero", doing "good".

He woke up in a monistary (spelling?). And I'll grant your point, which is why I admitted outright that it wasn't "really" a religious origin.

It is however an element I wish DC would play up a bit more -- it's more interesting than the "Horny Jim Carrey on Speed" take Grant Morrison brought to the character (and led to the atrocious "Dark Nut" issue). There were times during the Morrison JLA that I thought it was going to happen -- especially when he started pairing Zauriel and Plaz (it's a natural pairing; the angel and the redeemed) in dialog.

One of the fanfic projects I hope to actually write someday is "The Real Origin of a Plastic Man", rectifying the two conflicting origins and addressing this very element. Even if the plot ends on a punchline and is Hallmarky by my standards, I happen to think it works -- but perhaps I'm overly fond of the title :rolleyes:

[zornwil]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
He woke up in a monistary (spelling?). And I'll grant your point, which is why I admitted outright that it wasn't "really" a religious origin.

It is however an element I wish DC would play up a bit more -- it's more interesting than the "Horny Jim Carrey on Speed" take Grant Morrison brought to the character (and led to the atrocious "Dark Nut" issue). There were times during the Morrison JLA that I thought it was going to happen -- especially when he started pairing Zauriel and Plaz (it's a natural pairing; the angel and the redeemed) in dialog.

One of the fanfic projects I hope to actually write someday is "The Real Origin of a Plastic Man", rectifying the two conflicting origins and addressing this very element. Even if the plot ends on a punchline and is Hallmarky by my standards, I happen to think it works -- but perhaps I'm overly fond of the title :rolleyes:

I do agree with you, they should emphasize this more in the character. I think it got buried partly because in the Golden Age it was too "heavy" to go there (just because the medium was seen as light entertainment, obviously in that day and age in "adult" fiction it would have been done), then the tide of history has ignored that, perhaps unfortunately as a "convenience" of Golden Age story-telling, rather than recognizing that the character had a genuine ephiphany.

Good luck with the project, I hope you do it, you should post a link on these boards when you do.

[GenreFiend]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
There were times during the Morrison JLA that I thought it was going to happen -- especially when he started pairing Zauriel and Plaz (it's a natural pairing; the angel and the redeemed) in dialog.


I always wanted to see more interaction between Zauriel and the Huntress. I mean, she's a Roman Catholic (although she has slipped a good bit, but she still wore a cross as part of her costume at the time), and he was an honest-to-God (no pun intended) Angel! What does that do to her head? Especially since at the same time both Orion and Barda were on the team, with Orion constantly proclaiming his own godhood.I would have loved to see some deep conversation between the Angel and the Believer concerning the New God.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by GenreFiend
I always wanted to see more interaction between Zauriel and the Huntress. I mean, she's a Roman Catholic (although she has slipped a good bit, but she still wore a cross as part of her costume at the time), and he was an honest-to-God (no pun intended) Angel! What does that do to her head? Especially since at the same time both Orion and Barda were on the team, with Orion constantly proclaiming his own godhood.I would have loved to see some deep conversation between the Angel and the Believer concerning the New God.

The closest I ever saw them come to the possible Huntress/Zauriel possibilities occured during the "Foreign Bodies" one-shot (I *think* that was the name). Then again, that writer seemed to be quite fond of Zauriel -- if nothing else the writer had Z's character and power level closer to what I feel they should be than anything else I've seen. The throwaway statement during the "Amazo" issue of JLA that implied Zauriel's armor is tougher than Superman is the only "mainline" reference to this (often, one-shots are considered non-continuity).

[Sapphire_Steel]

An interesting post,
I have in my time tried to play various religons and non religions. I have done New age, Jewish, eastern schoolsof thought such as Shinto, and devout Catholic.

I think the key here is to not let it be the sole defining point to your character. I mean in the examples you mentioned such as Kitty or ben, they are not religious cyphers.. those can be a bit on the annoying side, remeber just because a person is religious does not mean that is their sole defining point.

Keeping it subtle or more realistic, tends to make it more believeable. Also on that note i tend to study some of the religion Im going to play to add to it, thats not needed of course and is just something I enjoy doing.