Green Arrow VS. Hawkeye [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

RDU Neil

Sep 19th, '03, 08:28 AM

As far as I can tell, I'm the only living person to think Connor Hawk was the best Green Arrow ever. I'm glad he's still around in the current series, but I enjoyed it most when he was traveling about with Eddie Fyres as a bizarre pseudo-father figure, trying to live up to the father (Ollie) who he never really knew. (Dead at the time... Ollie's back now, for those non-DC readers.)

As far as archery goes... I'm with Ollie as the better archer. His mastery of the bow has that zen quality Hawkeye could never achieve. Hawkeye is probably the more versatile, team oriented, hero/crime fighter... but Ollie is the better bowman.

death tribble

Sep 19th, '03, 08:33 AM

Apart from the Longbow Hunters graphic novel, Green Arrow could be written badly and looked awful in his 60s cotume. They got Hawkeye right early on.

I go with Hawkeye as well for what happened in the Secret Wars. He lost all his many arrows when Molecule Man dropped a mountain on top of the good guys. Afterwards he refused to give up and was making normal arrows to continue the fight.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 19th, '03, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by RDU Neil
As far as I can tell, I'm the only living person to think Connor Hawk was the best Green Arrow ever. I'm glad he's still around in the current series, but I enjoyed it most when he was traveling about with Eddie Fyres as a bizarre pseudo-father figure, trying to live up to the father (Ollie) who he never really knew. (Dead at the time... Ollie's back now, for those non-DC readers.)

The fact that Connor was the best martial artist, bar none, in the DCU tends to go unnoticed now. That statement was clearly made after Connor beat Lady Shiva; since Batgirl has since done the same, there's some uncertainty of whether Connnor or Batgirl is more skilled in this regard, but #2 slot would be pretty good too.

I like the Connor Hawke GA, but as a bowman, he takes a back seat to Ollie. Hawkeye isn't as good a bowman either, though he is a more versatile character and a better team player. Which characetr do I oike more? hawkeye. Which character is the Best Bowman? GA, hands down.

keithcurtis

Sep 19th, '03, 11:38 AM

Although I prefer GA, Hawkeye is no slouch in awesome shots. I had an Avengers issue where someone threw a deck of cards into the air and he pinned all four aces to the ceiling before the cards hit the floor.

The best shot I rememeber GA making was delivering Green Lantern's ring to him. GL was on a dock, Ollie was on a small rowboat. It was night. He stood in the rocking boat and looped the ring over and arrow and sent it between GL's fingers so that the ring caught while the arrow passed between.

I think it's fair to say that both archers pretty much hit whatever they aim for.

Keith "I'd pick GA for experience, though" Curtis

lemming

Sep 19th, '03, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by keithcurtis
The best shot I rememeber GA making...
This is just one story, but it's by Alan Moore, who knows the score. Just read it, but it's an early story collected in a trade paperback.
In it Black Canary is wounded by a sniper using a bow right in front of GA.
GA then shows the kid some real archery.

Does this show GA is better than Hawkeye? Not really. They're at the top of the class.

Enforcer84

Sep 19th, '03, 12:11 PM

Actually, I say this:

Hawkeye I like better
Hes a better Archer than Conner and a better Hand to hand fighter than Ollie.

Conner is the best hand to hand fighter and I am not sure if Clint is as good as Ollie in the bow department.

however, it takes two GA's to beat Hawk, so he wins in my book.

(btw with my vote we are split 11-11)

Beetle

Sep 19th, '03, 12:51 PM

It's not just hand-to-hand prowess that makes Hawk better. Can Ollie shoot up to 60' in height? I think not. (not 'til he gets some pym particles, anyway)

Lord Liaden

Sep 19th, '03, 01:13 PM

If we do finally end up with one of them with more votes, I predict that it will only be one or two. There's so little to choose between Ollie and Clint objectively that it mostly comes down to subjective preferences, which seem to be evenly split.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 19th, '03, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Beetle
It's not just hand-to-hand prowess that makes Hawk better. Can Ollie shoot up to 60' in height? I think not. (not 'til he gets some pym particles, anyway)

Doesn't make him a better bowman, though.

gewing

Sep 19th, '03, 02:17 PM

In many ways I like Green Arrow better. Costume, look, etc.

However, he is in many ways, iirc, not as good a MAN.

Besides, Hawkeye wins just for the line that went something like "You went after me as the weakest Avenger, and you couldn't even draw a 300 lb bow."

Crimson Arrow

Sep 19th, '03, 02:27 PM

Heck, I couldn't let this one slip, now could I?

Better Bowman? Ollie Queen. Hawkeye's made some great shots too, it would be mad to deny it, but as others have said, GA can take someone out with a boxing glove arrown or a stick with a sand-filled bleach bottle taped to the end. Mind you, Hawkeye probably could too. GA (now) uses normal arrows AS A MATTER OF COURSE and still does the job. It's a close call, but I'd give it to Green Arrow.

Better Hand to Hand? People are writing off Ollie here (and let's face it, Connor is better than his dad, or Clint). Within the last year, Oliver beat Solomon Grundy in hand to hand combat. Yes, I know that the writers can put what they like, but he also beat Onomatopeia without his bow (using the arrows as handheld weapons). Probably (on balance) I'd give this to Hawkeye, but it's not as clear-cut as some would have us believe.

Better Costume. I really don't like the hooded GA costume. I like the 70s one/the current one (very Errol Flynn). Yes, a bit silly maybe, but also distinctive and styllish (in a slightly camp way). Hawkeye? Ummm, yes purple and blue go together really well, don't they? Is Clint colourblind, or something? And what's with that thing round his eyes? Oh yes, and an "H" on his forehead, in case you forget what letter his name starts with. Going for GA on this one.

Better Attitude. I like Ollie's one, but they really overdo the bleeding heart liberal stuff with him. Plus, he's an idiot with women. Clint's a reformed criminal, for which I always have a soft spot. I'll give this to Hawkeye.

Best Equipment? Varies, depending who's writing, but recently and overall, Hawkeye gets the nod here.

Best Backup? Hawkeye has the Avengers. Pretty good, my man. Ollie has the JLA and (I think one could easily argue) the JSA (oh yes and there's Roy Harper and all of HIS allies and friends too). I think I'd give the nod to the man with the beard.

Most Experience/Original? Oliver Queen it is.

As I see it, things are pretty evenly balanced. BUT. What are we judging here? Hermit's poll gave no pointers.

If you take all things into consideration, it's basically even. Therefore, it's down to personal preference.

However, look at the poll again. Doesn't it suggest (maybe, just maybe) that this is ultimately, a battle of bowmen? Who is the better archer? I haven't seen one person here say the Clint is the better shot.

Green Arrow has my vote.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 19th, '03, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow
Better Costume. I really don't like the hooded GA costume. I like the 70s one/the current one (very Errol Flynn). Yes, a bit silly maybe, but also distinctive and styllish (in a slightly camp way). Hawkeye? Ummm, yes purple and blue go together really well, don't they? Is Clint colourblind, or something? And what's with that thing round his eyes? Oh yes, and an "H" on his forehead, in case you forget what letter his name starts with. Going for GA on this one.

Given the otrher costumes he's worn over the years, however, I'll take the purple & bluw bowman look every time. Anypne remember the costume circa Avengers #98?

Kevin Scrivner

Sep 19th, '03, 04:45 PM

Hermit beat me to it!

I'd have to agree with others here. Hawkeye is the more personable and heroic character. Didn't like Oliver Queen's dark angst period. Queen came first but wasn't exactly original, borrowing much of Batman's already borrowed schtick. Wouldn't want to be in either archer's sights. To be fair, I've read more of Hawkeye's adventures with the Avengers than I have of Green Arrow's adventures in his own magazine or the back pages of others.

Let's not forget the Green Archer, hero of a 1940 movie serial. Then there's always the infamous Rainbow Archer, 35 DEX for a mere trained normal. Anyone care to re-open the DEX vs. Combat Levels war in regard to the archery set?

My vote? Errol Flynn in "Adventures of Robin Hood," of course! He's more dashing than Hawkeye and luckier in love than Green Arrow. Besides, any bloke who can use a slain buck as a melee weapon against the Sheriff of Nottingham's guards gets points for panache.

Lord Liaden

Sep 19th, '03, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner
Then there's always the infamous Rainbow Archer, 35 DEX for a mere trained normal. Anyone care to re-open the DEX vs. Combat Levels war in regard to the archery set?

Not me! But when I recently updated the character (because it's been a looong time since the Olympics cancelled over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan), I made it so that she missed out on participating in the Olympics because she tested as a low-level paranormal (hence the high DEX), so was disqualified.

Pardon the interruption. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled poll.

loraxxx

Sep 19th, '03, 06:09 PM

ok--let's do the damn thing....

which of the two characters is more powerful?--hawkeye, hands down--he's like GA riding in a sherman tank, in terms of offense and defense....

but, also let us keep in mind that while both characters have similar skill sets, they worked within groups that generally handled different kinds of threats--GA was in the JLA, a group which generally took on one major-world threatening-uber powerful-uber baddie at a time, only occasionally having to deal with menaces like darkseid who would show up with his legions of "evil-ity, forcing you to spend hours wading through his lackeys before you even got a clear shot at their boss...."

no, ollie's life as a super-hero was much simpler--kanjar-ro shows up, you bop him with a boomerang arrow, despero comes to town, you get out of the martian manhunter's way, and go help rescue civilians, kobra comes to town, you kick ass and beat people senseless with your bow, 'cause no way you brought enough broadheads for all these dufuses...

HAWK on the other hand ran with the avengers, whose job it was to beat back the souless, faceless, hordes (like hydra, aim, the serpent society, the kree, the skrulls, and so on, and so on) he was tough as chewed leather, and in terms of firepower, well--let's say he WAS carrying an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on his back....

which to be honest, makes him more like SPEEDY--GA's ward/sidekick, especially during mr harper's more recent tenure with the titans/new teen titans and now the new outsiders--both of these guys made their livings mixing it up with swarms of agents and doling-out hurt using the skads of sophisticated weaponry they were packing--which is probably why roy eventually changed his name to ARSENAL, 'cause that's what he was....

which brings me back to my point (and i did have one....) nobody out there questions who would win in a fight between GA and ARSENAL!

even though the kid's probably more powerful "on paper," and could probaly take ollie 2 falls out of 3, it's generally accepted that the old guy's sneakier and would find a way to beat him--in the end....

no offense to hawkeye--he's one of my favorite characters, but if a dingus like myself can think of at least 2 or 3 ways for ollie to beat him, then it stands to reason that the man himself could probaly think of million....

gewing

Sep 19th, '03, 07:55 PM

I remember a (rather bad) avengers from when I was a kid. there was some stupid sentient cobalt flame trying to either take over the world or destroy it as a Cobalt bomb and the huge statues around it apparently held some kind of control mechanism to extinguish it. The actuator was apparently in the top of the head of one. Hawkeye shot it, though he couldn't see it. Cap told him he'd better not miss, and he replied " My names Hawkeye, I never learned how to miss."

indirect blindfire?

Id rank their skills as pretty comparable.

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow
Heck, I couldn't let this one slip, now could I?

Better Bowman? Ollie Queen. Hawkeye's made some great shots too, it would be mad to deny it, but as others have said, GA can take someone out with a boxing glove arrown or a stick with a sand-filled bleach bottle taped to the end. Mind you, Hawkeye probably could too. GA (now) uses normal arrows AS A MATTER OF COURSE and still does the job. It's a close call, but I'd give it to Green Arrow.

Better Hand to Hand? People are writing off Ollie here (and let's face it, Connor is better than his dad, or Clint). Within the last year, Oliver beat Solomon Grundy in hand to hand combat. Yes, I know that the writers can put what they like, but he also beat Onomatopeia without his bow (using the arrows as handheld weapons). Probably (on balance) I'd give this to Hawkeye, but it's not as clear-cut as some would have us believe.

Better Costume. I really don't like the hooded GA costume. I like the 70s one/the current one (very Errol Flynn). Yes, a bit silly maybe, but also distinctive and styllish (in a slightly camp way). Hawkeye? Ummm, yes purple and blue go together really well, don't they? Is Clint colourblind, or something? And what's with that thing round his eyes? Oh yes, and an "H" on his forehead, in case you forget what letter his name starts with. Going for GA on this one.

Better Attitude. I like Ollie's one, but they really overdo the bleeding heart liberal stuff with him. Plus, he's an idiot with women. Clint's a reformed criminal, for which I always have a soft spot. I'll give this to Hawkeye.

Best Equipment? Varies, depending who's writing, but recently and overall, Hawkeye gets the nod here.

Best Backup? Hawkeye has the Avengers. Pretty good, my man. Ollie has the JLA and (I think one could easily argue) the JSA (oh yes and there's Roy Harper and all of HIS allies and friends too). I think I'd give the nod to the man with the beard.

Most Experience/Original? Oliver Queen it is.

As I see it, things are pretty evenly balanced. BUT. What are we judging here? Hermit's poll gave no pointers.

If you take all things into consideration, it's basically even. Therefore, it's down to personal preference.

However, look at the poll again. Doesn't it suggest (maybe, just maybe) that this is ultimately, a battle of bowmen? Who is the better archer? I haven't seen one person here say the Clint is the better shot.

Green Arrow has my vote.

Hermit

Sep 19th, '03, 08:00 PM

Lord Liaden

Sep 19th, '03, 08:18 PM

Since you only have two options available, a tie might be what you end up with anyway.

And then we'll probably have someone complain that the voting was fixed. ;)

megaplayboy

Sep 19th, '03, 08:28 PM

I think their first shots at each other would split each other's arrows:D

Agent X

Sep 19th, '03, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Crimson Arrow
Heck, I couldn't let this one slip, now could I?

Better Bowman? Ollie Queen. Hawkeye's made some great shots too, it would be mad to deny it, but as others have said, GA can take someone out with a boxing glove arrown or a stick with a sand-filled bleach bottle taped to the end. Mind you, Hawkeye probably could too. GA (now) uses normal arrows AS A MATTER OF COURSE and still does the job. It's a close call, but I'd give it to Green Arrow.

Better Hand to Hand? People are writing off Ollie here (and let's face it, Connor is better than his dad, or Clint). Within the last year, Oliver beat Solomon Grundy in hand to hand combat. Yes, I know that the writers can put what they like, but he also beat Onomatopeia without his bow (using the arrows as handheld weapons). Probably (on balance) I'd give this to Hawkeye, but it's not as clear-cut as some would have us believe.

Better Costume. I really don't like the hooded GA costume. I like the 70s one/the current one (very Errol Flynn). Yes, a bit silly maybe, but also distinctive and styllish (in a slightly camp way). Hawkeye? Ummm, yes purple and blue go together really well, don't they? Is Clint colourblind, or something? And what's with that thing round his eyes? Oh yes, and an "H" on his forehead, in case you forget what letter his name starts with. Going for GA on this one.

Better Attitude. I like Ollie's one, but they really overdo the bleeding heart liberal stuff with him. Plus, he's an idiot with women. Clint's a reformed criminal, for which I always have a soft spot. I'll give this to Hawkeye.

Best Equipment? Varies, depending who's writing, but recently and overall, Hawkeye gets the nod here.

Best Backup? Hawkeye has the Avengers. Pretty good, my man. Ollie has the JLA and (I think one could easily argue) the JSA (oh yes and there's Roy Harper and all of HIS allies and friends too). I think I'd give the nod to the man with the beard.

Most Experience/Original? Oliver Queen it is.

As I see it, things are pretty evenly balanced. BUT. What are we judging here? Hermit's poll gave no pointers.

If you take all things into consideration, it's basically even. Therefore, it's down to personal preference.

However, look at the poll again. Doesn't it suggest (maybe, just maybe) that this is ultimately, a battle of bowmen? Who is the better archer? I haven't seen one person here say the Clint is the better shot.

Green Arrow has my vote. I will say that Green Arrow isn't a better shot. Either one can hit whatever they need to hit to win. Hawkeye, for example, has caused an arrow to ricochet like Captain America's shield in order to incapacitate an Elder of the Universe who was trying to crush him with TK. Honestly, this isn't even a measure of who is a better archer. They are both as good as they need to be.

proditor

Sep 19th, '03, 11:14 PM

I agree with most of the back and forth on this, but here's my distinction. I think Green Arrow is the flat out better shot in terms of accuracy and making shots while in weird positions, with one arm, etc. But in terms of trick shots? All Hawkeye, all the time.

It has to do with their origins to me. Clint was trained to be an extraordinary shot in terms of performance. He was a carny archer. A master of deflection shots, trick shots and fancy things like that.

Ollie had to learn to shoot if he wanted to eat. He honed this skill further after he got rescued, but the base training was just worlds different. One did it as a job, the other did it to live. That's why I think Ollie is the overall better archer. If you absolutely must hit a target regardless of distraction or physical discomfort, you have Ollie take the shot. The guy never misses. But, if you need to bounce an arrow off 5 surfaces and hit a guy in the back you go with Hawkeye.

Jeff T.

Sep 19th, '03, 11:37 PM

Eh, doesn't really matter anyway in the grand history of comics, because neither archer even comes close in talent, attitude, or skill to the incomparable...Shaft from Youngblood. :p

It's a joke! Please don't hurt me, fellas! :(

proditor

Sep 20th, '03, 12:52 AM

ROFL!!

No worries on pain from my end, I was laughing even before I got to the disclaimer. ;)

tmutant

Sep 20th, '03, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Agent X
...Either one can hit whatever they need to hit to win. Hawkeye, for example, has caused an arrow to ricochet like Captain America's shield in order to incapacitate an Elder of the Universe who was trying to crush him with TK. Honestly, this isn't even a measure of who is a better archer. They are both as good as they need to be.

I agree. This is a popularity contest. I really liked their respective mini-series from the eighties, I like both characters, but I have to vote for Green Arrow for completely subjective reasons. There is no objective reason to like one fictional character more than another.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 20th, '03, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by Starlord
Eh, doesn't really matter anyway in the grand history of comics, because neither archer even comes close in talent, attitude, or skill to the incomparable...Shaft from Youngblood. :p

In all fairness, it's certainly true that neiother Hawkeye nor GA is even remotely close in any way to Shaft. [Frankly, I don't think I would read anything that comes close to anything Youngblood in any respect :o ]

Image - proving that artists should stick to art!

Agent X

Sep 20th, '03, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by proditor
I agree with most of the back and forth on this, but here's my distinction. I think Green Arrow is the flat out better shot in terms of accuracy and making shots while in weird positions, with one arm, etc. But in terms of trick shots? All Hawkeye, all the time.

It has to do with their origins to me. Clint was trained to be an extraordinary shot in terms of performance. He was a carny archer. A master of deflection shots, trick shots and fancy things like that.

Ollie had to learn to shoot if he wanted to eat. He honed this skill further after he got rescued, but the base training was just worlds different. One did it as a job, the other did it to live. That's why I think Ollie is the overall better archer. If you absolutely must hit a target regardless of distraction or physical discomfort, you have Ollie take the shot. The guy never misses. But, if you need to bounce an arrow off 5 surfaces and hit a guy in the back you go with Hawkeye. If ever there was a persuasive argument to vote for Hawkeye this would be it. He was given the accumulated knowledge of generations of expert archers. Ollie learned how to a makeshift bow and arrow to kill rabbits for food.

Still, I'm going with a draw.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 20th, '03, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Agent X
If ever there was a persuasive argument to vote for Hawkeye this would be it. He was given the accumulated knowledge of generations of expert archers.

koff koff koff PARDON?? He was trained by the Swordsman, then that was retconned away to put in ONE archer, Trickshot, who trained him.

Ollie learned to shoot because he had to in order to survive (nothing like 16 hours' a day practice to hone your skills!), and was later trained in a monestary of "zen archers" who, again, had little to do all day but practice archery.

Meanwhile, Hawkeye found the time to learn martial arts from Captain America, gain pilotiong skills, learn how to operate at a height of 20' (when he abandoned the bow entirely)...And do you really think, based on personality or attitude, he spent all his time at the carny training?

So which one has more training again?

I would suggest that, based on Ollie's initial attempts, it may be fair to say Clint had more natural talent. He also has (as his name implies) better eyesight. But Clint cannot lay claim to more, or better, training.

I go with the prior commentator - Ollie learned to shoot so he could survive. Clint learned to make a living, and probably to impress the ladies.

GrooveD70

Sep 20th, '03, 04:10 PM

Specifically the Ultimate Hawkeye..

Hermit

Sep 20th, '03, 04:21 PM

Wow, Hawkeye is (as of this post) behind by 8!

That big a gap surprises me.

GrooveD70

Sep 20th, '03, 04:43 PM

It amazing what Kevin Smith can do with a charector...

Isaiah_26_4

Sep 20th, '03, 08:09 PM

Chello!

Ollie....just because in DKR, an old one-armed Ollie still hits his target while hanging upside down...

Madstone

Sep 20th, '03, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by gewing
I remember a (rather bad) avengers from when I was a kid. there was some stupid sentient cobalt flame trying to either take over the world or destroy it as a Cobalt bomb and the huge statues around it apparently held some kind of control mechanism to extinguish it. The actuator was apparently in the top of the head of one. Hawkeye shot it, though he couldn't see it. Cap told him he'd better not miss, and he replied " My names Hawkeye, I never learned how to miss."

indirect blindfire?

Ok, that is a real mindscrew, because that is always the moment I think of when I think of Hawkeye! Seriously, I can't believe someone mentioned this! Wow, I gotta sit down...

The real relevant thing to me here is that I loved this incarnation of Hawkeye. As Captain America's foil, he was absolutely at his best. As soon as he was made a leader himself, a vital part of his personality seemed to disappear. After Secret Wars, I think I lost all interest in him.

GA, on the other hand, I used to just kinda like, but he got a lot more interesting as the years went on. His defining moment in DKR clinched it. Then he gave up the trick arrows and went hooded, a costume I loved, then met Whisper. the quote I seem to remember from this is "We have heard of an archer who shoots with great skill, but no heart." I think that better applies to Hawkeye now.

Agent X

Sep 20th, '03, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
koff koff koff PARDON?? He was trained by the Swordsman, then that was retconned away to put in ONE archer, Trickshot, who trained him.

Ollie learned to shoot because he had to in order to survive (nothing like 16 hours' a day practice to hone your skills!), and was later trained in a monestary of "zen archers" who, again, had little to do all day but practice archery.

Meanwhile, Hawkeye found the time to learn martial arts from Captain America, gain pilotiong skills, learn how to operate at a height of 20' (when he abandoned the bow entirely)...And do you really think, based on personality or attitude, he spent all his time at the carny training?

So which one has more training again?

I would suggest that, based on Ollie's initial attempts, it may be fair to say Clint had more natural talent. He also has (as his name implies) better eyesight. But Clint cannot lay claim to more, or better, training.

I go with the prior commentator - Ollie learned to shoot so he could survive. Clint learned to make a living, and probably to impress the ladies. Hugh, look at your post I was responding to. I've already said that there isn't any objective measure that can decide who is better. For one thing, why are we assuming Zen Archers are better than Carnival Trick-Shot Artists? Adding philosophy to a sport doesn't make you better. Japanese Judokas have been suffering many defeats because the Europeans are bigger, stronger, more physical, and less distracted by silly philosophizing and more concerned with the physics of Judo.

lemming

Sep 21st, '03, 12:06 AM

And of the course the question is:
Can either take on a Star Destroyer or the Enterprise? :D

Jeff T.

Sep 21st, '03, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by lemming
And of the course the question is:
Can either take on a Star Destroyer or the Enterprise? :D

How about a poll?

Enterprise E vs. a Super Star Destroyer :D

Hugh Neilson

Sep 21st, '03, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Agent X
Hugh, look at your post I was responding to. I've already said that there isn't any objective measure that can decide who is better. For one thing, why are we assuming Zen Archers are better than Carnival Trick-Shot Artists? Adding philosophy to a sport doesn't make you better. Japanese Judokas have been suffering many defeats because the Europeans are bigger, stronger, more physical, and less distracted by silly philosophizing and more concerned with the physics of Judo.

Look at tyhe post I responded to - Hawkeye "was given the accumulated knowledge of generations of expert archers." That's a lot stronger than ONE carny archer and a swordsman actually shown in Marvel continuity.

Whether zen archery or carny archery has the advantage isn't the issue. GA had a monestary full of trainers. Hawkeye had two.

Hawk and GA haveboth made incredible shots under less than ideal conditions. I have never, however, seen Hawkeye fire a stick with a bleach bottle filed with sand accurately. In fact, I think Hawkeye's arrows are universally aerodynamic.

In the end, though, there's no objective standard to measure them by - it all comes down to personal opinion.

Killer Shrike

Sep 21st, '03, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by lemming
And of the course the question is:
Can either take on a Star Destroyer or the Enterprise? :D Star Destroyer: Yes. Enterprise: depends on the writer, but generally no

Killer Shrike

Sep 21st, '03, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Look at tyhe post I responded to - Hawkeye "was given the accumulated knowledge of generations of expert archers." That's a lot stronger than ONE carny archer and a swordsman actually shown in Marvel continuity.

Whether zen archery or carny archery has the advantage isn't the issue. GA had a monestary full of trainers. Hawkeye had two.

Hawk and GA haveboth made incredible shots under less than ideal conditions. I have never, however, seen Hawkeye fire a stick with a bleach bottle filed with sand accurately. In fact, I think Hawkeye's arrows are universally aerodynamic.

In the end, though, there's no objective standard to measure them by - it all comes down to personal opinion. Er....and the fact that as comic book characters they can do whatever whackass thing the current writer wants them to do -- an we all know how dedicated to continuity, consistency, and realism most comic book writers are....

"In this issue Ill have an alternate reality Hawkeye with 1 arm and 1 leg and 1 eye shoot an arrow with an engine block attached and hit three targets with it -- that'll finally show everyone he's better than GA!" :rolleyes:

assault

Sep 21st, '03, 03:56 PM

Well, it looks like the forces of good taste are increasingly winning out over the Evil Marvel Zombies. Thanks, no doubt, to Hostess Cupcakes.

Of course, this is a completely one-sided contest. GA, while a Batman knockoff, is one of the most enduring superheroes of all, who, while he has trouble supporting his own title, keeps getting new titles, while Hawkeye is basically just a face in the crowd - yet another supporting character.

More to the point: GA has been in some of the greatest stories ever. These include the classic GA/Green Lantern stories, the simply beautiful Longbow Hunters, and, of course, The Dark Knight Returns.

And there we have the ultimate proof of GA's superiority: GA took out Superman while hanging upside down and with one arm missing!

Alan

Hermit

Sep 21st, '03, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by assault
Evil Marvel Zombies.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Or did... ;)

Skills aside, I actually like Hawkeye better, but I recall some old Green Lantern/Green Arrow team ups very fondly.

Agent X

Sep 21st, '03, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by assault
Well, it looks like the forces of good taste are increasingly winning out over the Evil Marvel Zombies. Thanks, no doubt, to Hostess Cupcakes.

Of course, this is a completely one-sided contest. GA, while a Batman knockoff, is one of the most enduring superheroes of all, who, while he has trouble supporting his own title, keeps getting new titles, while Hawkeye is basically just a face in the crowd - yet another supporting character.

More to the point: GA has been in some of the greatest stories ever. These include the classic GA/Green Lantern stories, the simply beautiful Longbow Hunters, and, of course, The Dark Knight Returns.

And there we have the ultimate proof of GA's superiority: GA took out Superman while hanging upside down and with one arm missing!

Alan GA/GL were groundbreaking stories but good stories? I'm not sure about that. Longbow Hunters might have been good stories but I didn't care for it. I'm a bit of a traditionalist myself. DKR is responsible for so many bad twists and turns in comics I really have a problem with it. It's strange that so many of the stories that are cited as being great stories are the ones that really don't have a traditional comic book flavor, stories that question the validity of a straight up superhero. I reject these "What Ifs/Elseworlds" as a method of comparison. If you say Green Arrow makes a better hero than Hawkeye, so be it. They've never really done anything other than mainstream with Hawkeye. If you say he is a better superhero, I have to say I can't see the reason to rate one over the other.

Madstone

Sep 21st, '03, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by assault
GA, while a Batman knockoff, is one of the most enduring superheroes of all...

Umm, GA is a Batman knockoff? I wonder what Robin Hood thinks about that...

Kevin Scrivner

Sep 21st, '03, 04:42 PM

Umm, GA is a Batman knockoff? I wonder what Robin Hood thinks about that...

-----

Point taken. But there WAS the kid sidekick, the Arrowcar, the Arrowplane, the trick projectiles emulating a certain other crimefighter's utility belt...

Green Arrow vs. a Super Star Destroyer? No contest. A couple Ultra-Gluebomb arrows (patent pending) up its tailpipe and that metallic puppy is history! Hey, this is a JLA alumnus we're talking about.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 21st, '03, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner
Umm, GA is a Batman knockoff? I wonder what Robin Hood thinks about that...

-----

Point taken. But there WAS the kid sidekick, the Arrowcar, the Arrowplane, the trick projectiles emulating a certain other crimefighter's utility belt...

Perhaps more properly, GA was one of many Batman knockoffs in the Golden (and early Silver) age. Unlike most, he evolved instead of disappearing. Odd, that, considering he was one of the most blatant in duplicating everything Bats had (Arrowcar, Arrowplane - OK, I can see that. But an ArrowCAVE? Since when do arrows live in caves???).

Blue

Sep 21st, '03, 05:23 PM

First time I saw Hawkeye I decided he was a Green Arrow knockoff. While I liked the character from time to time, there wasn't much to really compel me to him. Maybe they write him better than 'back in my day'.

Green Arrow always seemed pretty cool, but once Mike Grell got a hold of him he became a great and interesting character. I lien toward the Green Arrow.

Crusader108

Sep 21st, '03, 06:05 PM

I got to go with Hawkeye. He's been the leader of two teams (strong leadership skills), he has been trained in hand-to-hand fighting by Capt. America himself (strong fighting skills), a large variety of useful arrowheads (utility and versatility), plus one of the most enjoyable personalities in comics...without ever going "Dark Knight" (fun-loving, irreverent, sarcastic yet with a strong Code vs Killing). He's faced mad gods, demons, meglomaniacs, etc. and still holds true to his finer traits. :cool:

Agent X

Sep 21st, '03, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Look at tyhe post I responded to - Hawkeye "was given the accumulated knowledge of generations of expert archers." That's a lot stronger than ONE carny archer and a swordsman actually shown in Marvel continuity.

Whether zen archery or carny archery has the advantage isn't the issue. GA had a monestary full of trainers. Hawkeye had two.

Hawk and GA haveboth made incredible shots under less than ideal conditions. I have never, however, seen Hawkeye fire a stick with a bleach bottle filed with sand accurately. In fact, I think Hawkeye's arrows are universally aerodynamic.

In the end, though, there's no objective standard to measure them by - it all comes down to personal opinion. How did I miss this? Oh well, I will respond now. Where do carny archers learn to "arch?" I would presume from older carny archers. So I made an assumption. Seems logical.

So if Chuck Norris trained me in the martial arts and the Three Stooges trained you in martial arts you would be better than me because you had more trainers? This goes to the "whole monastery" idea.

Yep. No objective standard. It's a draw to anyone who doesn't have a horse in the race.

Hermit

Sep 21st, '03, 06:14 PM

A tangent (But hey, I'm the one who put this thread up) for those interested:

How many of you have made and played your own "Super Hero Archer" characters?

Agent X

Sep 21st, '03, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
A tangent (But hey, I'm the one who put this thread up) for those interested:

How many of you have made and played your own "Super Hero Archer" characters? I have, in a Marvel/DC Universe I played a Latino Speedy. In this Marvel/DC Universe, Green Arrow's Speedy grew up to be Hawkeye. My Speedy had been trained by Hawkeye before joining... The Teen Titans, at least our version of the Teen Titans.

Blue

Sep 21st, '03, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
A tangent (But hey, I'm the one who put this thread up) for those interested:

How many of you have made and played your own "Super Hero Archer" characters?

Everyone I'd wager. NPC the black archer was a major villain of the old campaign many years ago. My PC archers have all been in fantasy games though.

Arthur

Sep 21st, '03, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by death tribble

I go with Hawkeye as well for what happened in the Secret Wars. He lost all his many arrows when Molecule Man dropped a mountain on top of the good guys. Afterwards he refused to give up and was making normal arrows to continue the fight.

Yeah. Secret Wars was a silly concept and done in a hokey way, but very liberally sprinkled with fine moments (one of my favorite lines in any story anywhere ever is delivered by Wolverine to Captain America: "Terrorists! That's what the big army calls the little army!"

Hawkeye dropping Piledriver with a plain old pointy arrow was a great bit. Of course, it was done in Bronze Age style, so it was the world's only non-bleeding puncture wound....

Other bits I liked:
Spidey trashing Titania.

Doom kicking ass, as he should. Victor Von Doom uber alles! It took an infinitely powerful being to beat him.

The exchange between Iron Man and the Torch regarding healing Colossus: "Lemme see if I got this straight. A guy who can burst into flames has doubts that this broad from planet Mongo can heal this mutant dude? Good thing he ain't black, huh?"

Etc.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 21st, '03, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Agent X
How did I miss this? Oh well, I will respond now. Where do carny archers learn to "arch?" I would presume from older carny archers. So I made an assumption. Seems logical.

Since when do logic and comics march hand in hand? Marvel continuity first put Hawkeye's training in the hands of the Swordsman, who never fires a bow, so how good is HE? That question was resolved by introducing Trickshot, who trained Hawkeye in archery. But still one guy. Doesn't mean Hawkeye isn't a fine shot though.

Originally posted by Agent X
So if Chuck Norris trained me in the martial arts and the Three Stooges trained you in martial arts you would be better than me because you had more trainers? This goes to the "whole monastery" idea.

GA had more trainers, all of whom were skilled archers. No Stooges in the bunch (except with reference to the initial "self-teaching", I suppose ;)

But there's no objective standard. All you can do is look at the books and ask what each has done. Hawkeye fires universally aerodynamic projectiles. When he makes the "anvil" shot described previously, he'll have to be ranked higher. But he'd better get in lots of bleach bottle practice first.

Hawkeye is, however, the more well-rounded character - he's gotten archery as good as he needs to be, and branched out into other areas (leadership, piloting, HTH, etc.). GA focuses on only his archery.

Agent X

Sep 21st, '03, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Since when do logic and comics march hand in hand? Marvel continuity first put Hawkeye's training in the hands of the Swordsman, who never fires a bow, so how good is HE? That question was resolved by introducing Trickshot, who trained Hawkeye in archery. But still one guy. Doesn't mean Hawkeye isn't a fine shot though.

GA had more trainers, all of whom were skilled archers. No Stooges in the bunch (except with reference to the initial "self-teaching", I suppose ;)

But there's no objective standard. All you can do is look at the books and ask what each has done. Hawkeye fires universally aerodynamic projectiles. When he makes the "anvil" shot described previously, he'll have to be ranked higher. But he'd better get in lots of bleach bottle practice first.

Hawkeye is, however, the more well-rounded character - he's gotten archery as good as he needs to be, and branched out into other areas (leadership, piloting, HTH, etc.). GA focuses on only his archery. Hey, if you're going to knock Hawkeye for his original origin you have to be consistent and do the same for Green Arrow.

As far as bleach bottles, I'm glad I haven't read a story involving bleach bottle arrows. Out of curiosity, was it color-safe? :D

Madstone

Sep 21st, '03, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
How many of you have made and played your own "Super Hero Archer" characters?

Interesting timing, because I was thinking about a new archer idea when this thread came up. It's always been a favorite archetype, But I've only actually made one character and it was years ago. (And I'd like to thank Mr. Liefeld for showing me just how bad a favorite archetype can be mutilated.)

The question I would like to pose is this- are there any archers out there who aren't trained humans? What kind of super would devote himself to the bow?

I tried with a luckster once, who was intensely accurate by luck rather than skill. He was supposed to have a knack for hitting what he needed to hit rather than what he was necessarily aiming at. Never finished him, tho.

How about a brick with an INCREDIBLY strong bow? Hercules was a famous archer. I love the image of a winged archer, but someone suggested the name Cupid and that image was shot to hell for me. I'd like to see some other archetypes crossover with the archer. Could be fun.

zornwil

Sep 21st, '03, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
I vote Hawkeye, because he never used an arrow with a boxing glove tied to it. :)

That's why I would vote for GA.

Actually, really, like most, it's just personal preference. As a kid I read more DC than Marvel, and generally liked DC better (I was also much more of an optimist and believer in ideals then, too, and I reflect back and always thought of Marvel as more "gritty" but more cynical, with DC more rosy and shiny, even with the GL/GA "socially relevant" comics of the early 70s). I've probably only read something like 5 stories with Hawkeye, well, okay, maybe a dozen, but that at most as I didn't read many Avengers things. The ones I did were either just before he joined or about that time, and when he joined them he was a real arrogant jackass. Of course Ollie was arrogant but he was facing Green Lantern's more standoffish and "establishment" arrogance, so it seemed more justified to me.

I wouldn't feel this way now I'm sure if I went back and read through a whole bunch of stories of both. But Ollie Green Lantern is "comfort food" for me.

Oddly, though, this super character X vs super character Y poll is much more interesting to me than the preceding ones.

EDIT - oh, to answer, no I've never constructed a bow-and-arrow character, even as a villain NPC (I think). I do have a character now who has a bow and arrow but it's not his main schtick and he almost never uses it. As others here said, also, I saw Hawkeye as the rip-off character as I knew Green Arrow before.

proditor

Sep 22nd, '03, 01:18 AM

I still think it comes down to motivation. Having to get good to survive is a pretty big motivator. Now you could say that Clint would get beaten up if he was lousy, and sure, that's a motivation to be as good as you need to be. But odds are he wouldn't die over it.

As to Archer characters, yes, had one in a very very long running game where my character started as just some trained human, but eventually had his radiation accident and became the newest incarnation of Uller the Norse God of Archery and Hunting.

proditor

Sep 22nd, '03, 02:05 AM

OMG!! I forgot the best archer ever!!

Yondu from the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Let's see Clint or Ollie whistle THEIR arrows around corners. :)

And yes, I'm kidding, but the argument has a sick kind of merit to it.

GenreFiend

Sep 22nd, '03, 03:54 AM

One of the best uses I've ever found for a Multipower. Most of the ones I've done were also minor mutants with super-human dex and telescopic vision.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 22nd, '03, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by proditor
OMG!! I forgot the best archer ever!!

Yondu from the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Let's see Clint or Ollie whistle THEIR arrows around corners. :)

Let's vote him "best archer who doesn't need to know how to shoot accurately". So it's off target - just whistle it back on course!

Hugh Neilson

Sep 22nd, '03, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by Agent X
Hey, if you're going to knock Hawkeye for his original origin you have to be consistent and do the same for Green Arrow.

huh? I noted the retcon so the guy who trained him actually is seen using a bow on panel. I don't think GA had an original origin - the desert island just keeps changing from whether he was deliberately marooned to fell off the boat after one too many.

Originally posted by Agent X
As far as bleach bottles, I'm glad I haven't read a story involving bleach bottle arrows. Out of curiosity, was it color-safe? :D

Only one ever printed - 1st issue of the new series. The bottle was old and I think the label was gone, so that'll be a question that can only be answered in "Quiver Year 1 - The Bleach Bottle's Tale"

Lord Liaden

Sep 22nd, '03, 06:06 AM

I feel that I need to respond to the frequent "Hawkeye only uses aerodynamic arrows" comments. During the first Kree/Skrull War miniseries in Avengers, Clint (who was in his Goliath identity at the time) was caught alone aboard a Skrull starship with no more of Hank Pym's growth formula, so essentially powerless. He rips some pipes, struts and wire out of a wall panel and improvises a bow and arrow, with which he knocks out an approaching Skrull guard with a shot right to the jaw. The narrative text proclaimed in bold letters: "And Hawkeye is reborn!":D

Hermit

Sep 22nd, '03, 08:11 AM

I do think a lot of the praise GA is getting for boxing glove arrows and such is not taking into account GA's golden age beginings as opposed to Hawkeye's silver age one. Silver Age, while hardly realistic in most areas, was attempting to go there... and thus for Hawkeye, glove arrows would have been seen as a hokey step backwards.

Green Arrow himself no longer uses such (As far as I know), and image and attempt at some realism has a lot to do with why.

zornwil

Sep 22nd, '03, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
I do think a lot of the praise GA is getting for boxing glove arrows and such is not taking into account GA's golden age beginings as opposed to Hawkeye's silver age one. Silver Age, while hardly realistic in most areas, was attempting to go there... and thus for Hawkeye, glove arrows would have been seen as a hokey step backwards.

Green Arrow himself no longer uses such (As far as I know), and image and attempt at some realism has a lot to do with why.

Hmmmm, I think YOU need a boxing glove arrow coming your way, Hermit, talking smack like that about the best dang Green Arrow there ever was, before he went all soft and used "real" arrow. Pshaw, ANYBODY can use REAL arrows. Heck even I hav eused real arrows, and I'm not in this poll, now am I?

:D

Hermit

Sep 22nd, '03, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by zornwil
Hmmmm, I think YOU need a boxing glove arrow coming your way, Hermit, talking smack like that about the best dang Green Arrow there ever was, before he went all soft and used "real" arrow. Pshaw, ANYBODY can use REAL arrows. Heck even I have used real arrows, and I'm not in this poll, now am I?

:D

No, but you don't have your own comic book :)
Do you have a kewl skysled? Huh?

Didn't think so. ;)
Do you run around in tights?
Wait... I don't wanna know

:)

wcw43921

Sep 22nd, '03, 06:56 PM

I had to give it to Green Arrow, if for no other reason than he's had the longer and more successful solo career. And while I think the Neal Adams-designed costume is the best, I don't have a problem with the Golden/Silver Age version of the character either. Yes, that character wasn't much more than "Batman with a bow" but think about it--if you were directly affected by crime, and you had these phenomenal archery skills, and you were aware of this guy in Gotham City who wears a bat-costume and catches criminals, you might just be inspired to do the same. Kind of like the "Batmen of Many Nations" if anyone remembers that bit of Silver Age treasure.

This does not make me any less of a Hawkeye fan--the guy defeated the Grandmaster, one of the most powerful beings in Marveldom, with a simple carny trick. That he even attempted it shows the level of brass and bravery he possesses.

Both of them are, of course, extremely skilled archers. I would have liked to have seen the "Amalgam-verse" version of the two--that character would be an archer version of the Waco Kid from Blazing Saddles.

proditor

Sep 22nd, '03, 07:10 PM

Oh! Did any of you see the cover for JLA/Avengers #3?

In the middle bottom of the massive crowd scene, you have from left to right, arrayed back to back with bows facing outwards, Arsenal, Green Arrow, Hawkeye and Yondu.

Awesome picture!

zornwil

Sep 22nd, '03, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
No, but you don't have your own comic book :)
Do you have a kewl skysled? Huh?

Didn't think so. ;)
Do you run around in tights?
Wait... I don't wanna know

:)

Ah, you don't know my Urban Druid outfit - no spandex, no tights (that would be cruel and unusual punishment) - but a motorcycle helmet underneath a cowl/cape (you see, the bad guys think due to the cowl you have no head protection and they hit you there, hahahaha, the fools), and a gas mask. Oh, and a dart gun.

Seriously, I only have put this on as a goof like 5-6 times in the last 20 years.

gewing

Sep 22nd, '03, 07:56 PM

My first Champions character, at a COn during high school was "Red Wolf" a Native American archer with a high tech bow (explosive and AP arrows) and a mystic Wampum shirt as armor. to set the time and place, he was hunted by AIM and the Dire Wraiths... ;) yeah, just a LOT CORNY.

He was actually kicking ass in the fight that broke out, At one point I was iirc the only one conscious on the team, and had taken out 2 or 3 enemies. iirc their mentallist took me out. :(

Originally posted by Hermit
A tangent (But hey, I'm the one who put this thread up) for those interested:

How many of you have made and played your own "Super Hero Archer" characters?

gewing

Sep 22nd, '03, 08:01 PM

I forgot about the "god archer" character I made in a "Fantasy Champions" game. 23 dex, 6 skill levels, 3 or 4 range levels. He was scary even before he got the magic autofire bow. :) iirc, he shot 2 guys in the right knee at the same time at almost a quarter mile. Of course, they didn't even know he was there, so... :)

Originally posted by proditor
I still think it comes down to motivation. Having to get good to survive is a pretty big motivator. Now you could say that Clint would get beaten up if he was lousy, and sure, that's a motivation to be as good as you need to be. But odds are he wouldn't die over it.

As to Archer characters, yes, had one in a very very long running game where my character started as just some trained human, but eventually had his radiation accident and became the newest incarnation of Uller the Norse God of Archery and Hunting.

Hermit

Sep 22nd, '03, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by proditor
Oh! Did any of you see the cover for JLA/Avengers #3?

In the middle bottom of the massive crowd scene, you have from left to right, arrayed back to back with bows facing outwards, Arsenal, Green Arrow, Hawkeye and Yondu.

Awesome picture!

Ooo... no. Not getting them because of tight budgets, but please, tell us how it goes if/when the Hawkeye/Green Arrow showdown occurs in there, please. (Though you'd want to put a spoiler warning on it I'm sure)

Champsguy

Sep 24th, '03, 11:57 PM

For all the smack talking about who is the better archer, I've never seen either one of them miss.

As far as the "learned to shoot to feed himself" argument, so what? Tom Hanks had to learn to use a spear to feed himself in "Castaway", but I don't see the nicest man in Hollywood going out and kicking ass every night. How hard is it to shoot a damn rabbit? Those things are like DCV 5 at max.

I vote for Hawkeye. He's more high-profile than Green Arrow. For all the talk about how great Ollie is, he's never around. Clint shows up to help out the Avengers 'cause it's fun. Besides, Clint seems like a real person, not a charicature.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 25th, '03, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by Champsguy
As far as the "learned to shoot to feed himself" argument, so what? Tom Hanks had to learn to use a spear to feed himself in "Castaway", but I don't see the nicest man in Hollywood going out and kicking ass every night. How hard is it to shoot a damn rabbit? Those things are like DCV 5 at max.

ummmm...I don't think Tom was told "here's the spear - no fish, you go hungry. See you in six months". I rather suspect he didn't miss too many meals while filming.

And you have obviously never tried to catch a rabbit. Your hypothetical rabbit boasts 1 level of shrinking and a 10 DEX - those rabbits were removed from the gene pool when we were all still using spears.

Originally posted by Champsguy
I vote for Hawkeye. He's more high-profile than Green Arrow. For all the talk about how great Ollie is, he's never around. Clint shows up to help out the Avengers 'cause it's fun. Besides, Clint seems like a real person, not a charicature.

Fire, Gas.
Gas, Fire.

More high profile? Which one has had a successful solo series? Hawkeye has had a miniseries and that stellar :rolleyes: run in Solo Avengers. However, he has been a very successful supporting cast member in the Avengers line.

Real person/caricature: I'd say attempts have been made to characterize them both. Both are womanizers (GA to a greater degree, or maybe just with greater success; Hawkeye not after he got married - personality turned on a dime there). Which one has had realistic consequences from that fact? GA has a son. But, again, GA has had a lot of solo books to explore his reality. Say, is Hawkeye still hearing impaired? They made a big deal of it after his miniseries, but I don't recall it being corrected, and we never seem to hear about it any more.

For myself, I like both characters. I wouldn't call eitehr a caricature, and I'm not about to bet against either in the archery department. But Ollie seems like the better bowman to me, while Clint seems the more well-runded skills based superguy.

Hermit

Sep 25th, '03, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Champsguy
For all the smack talking about who is the better archer, I've never seen either one of them miss.

Mmm, you know, you may have a point there. I'm sure someone has seen one or both of them miss, but I bet it's so rare as to still be on the 'one hand' category.

GenreFiend

Sep 25th, '03, 08:19 AM

I have seen Hawkeye miss. Of course, he had a broken arm at the time, and he was using a wrist-mounted crossbow. Which he had been practicing with for about 15 minutes. And he only missed by three inches or so (still hitting his target, just not precisely where he aimed), but still, he did miss.

keithcurtis

Sep 25th, '03, 12:08 PM

Everybody remembers that Green Arrow studied Zen Archery in a monastery, but no one seems to remember why.

He missed.

And killed someone.

Granted the guy was about to kill someone else, but it was his intention to disarm the criminal. He broke his bows and arrows and retreated from the world. That was why the killing scene in "Longbow Hunters" had so little impact for me. Ollie went through this before and came off better the first time around. Heroes took their Codes vs. Killing SERIOUSLY in those days.

Keith "Like snow falling from a bamboo leaf..." Curtis

Argus

Sep 25th, '03, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
I can't rush out and get the new Avengers vs Justice League comics, so I'm living vicariously ;)

So, who is the master Archer? Who, in your eyes, deserves top billing as best bowman?

Hawkeye is the Greatest!
More skillfull and taught how to fight by Captain America himself.

A.

proditor

Sep 26th, '03, 04:37 AM

Ya know, I love Cap, I really do, but the "Taught by Captain America" line has been trotted out a lot.

Tony Stark was taught how to fight by Cap. Anyone want to give him odds against most of the rest of the Marvel Universe without the suit? Now I love Iron man, one of my top 5 heroes of all time, same with Cap, but just because Cap teaches you how to handle mooks in HTH does not make you Iron Fist. Hawkeye is first and foremost an Archer who can handle himself in HTH. He is not a combat god.

Argus

Sep 26th, '03, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by proditor
Ya know, I love Cap, I really do, but the "Taught by Captain America" line has been trotted out a lot.

Tony Stark was taught how to fight by Cap. Anyone want to give him odds against most of the rest of the Marvel Universe without the suit? Now I love Iron man, one of my top 5 heroes of all time, same with Cap, but just because Cap teaches you how to handle mooks in HTH does not make you Iron Fist. Hawkeye is first and foremost an Archer who can handle himself in HTH. He is not a combat god.

I would never call Hawkeye a combat god.

An all around well developed god would be more like it.

A.

Champsguy

Sep 26th, '03, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
ummmm...I don't think Tom was told "here's the spear - no fish, you go hungry. See you in six months". I rather suspect he didn't miss too many meals while filming.

Well, I didn't actually mean Tom Hanks the actor, I meant the character he played in the movie. I doubt that guy had a great OCV with his pointd stick.

And you have obviously never tried to catch a rabbit. Your hypothetical rabbit boasts 1 level of shrinking and a 10 DEX - those rabbits were removed from the gene pool when we were all still using spears.

Rabbits? No. Quail? Yes. Small animals don't have as good a DCV as Champions would give them. Being nice, I give myself a 12 Dex and a level with guns. I can hit birds and clay pigeons maybe 2/3 of the time. Both of these guys fire arrows at super-speedsters (and hit, too). That's harder than shooting a rabbit.

PhantomGM6101

Sep 26th, '03, 01:04 PM

Hawkeye, Hands down!

two reasons[1] he was a good boy thrown in a situation
beyond his control[wanted to be a hero ended up a crook]
[2] He's a carnival trick shooter,meaning that he can preform acrobatics while shooting. whereas Ollie Queen is a millionaire with just a few trick arrows up his sleeve.

all-in-All, Hawkeye is THE MAN!

badger3k

Sep 26th, '03, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Say, is Hawkeye still hearing impaired? They made a big deal of it after his miniseries, but I don't recall it being corrected, and we never seem to hear about it any more.

Already voted - prefer Clint to Ollie. Hawkeye got his hearing repaired by Franklin Richards somewhere. A recent (prob 20-40s in latest run) avengers cleared that footnote up.

Hugh Neilson

Sep 26th, '03, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by badger3k
Already voted - prefer Clint to Ollie. Hawkeye got his hearing repaired by Franklin Richards somewhere. A recent (prob 20-40s in latest run) avengers cleared that footnote up.

That's right - another casualty of Heroes Regurgitated! Franklin restored them as he remembered them! [Lot of work to buy off a Phys' Lim, don't you think?]

Thanks for the reminder!

st barbara

Oct 3rd, '03, 03:44 PM

Going WAY back into the dim dark distant past (some time in the mid 60's I think) I saw "Hawkeye" miss while fighting "Iron Man" in an issue of "Tales Of Suspense". From memory it happenned thusly. "Hawkeye" was working with "The Black Widow", then a Soviet spy, and was fighting "Iron Man". He was weakening his opponent with his then newly invented "Acid Spray" arrows which were slowly eating away at "Iron Man's" armour. As he was about to finish his opponent off "Iron Man" slipped an "atomic borer" or something like that onto his hand and bored into the earth just as "Hawkeye" fired. It was so fast that "Hawkeye's" arrow missed ! Does anyone else remember this story ? I think that it was the same one where "The Black Widow" was given her first "powers" (suction boots and a line bracelet).

loraxxx

Oct 3rd, '03, 06:09 PM

while i did vote for ollie over cliff, i will give hawkeye his props for having the best line in JLA/AVENGERS #1....

SPOILER!!!!!!!!
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(describing the JLA after the the two teams have their first non-conclusive skirmish) :

"....They're nuthin' but a bunch of SQUADRON SUPREME wannabe's!!

Hermit

Oct 3rd, '03, 06:28 PM

Heh... GA MIGHT Win, but Hawkeye draws first verbal blood :)

Hugh Neilson

Oct 3rd, '03, 06:32 PM

It was his other line that had me laughing.

SPOILER
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"Bet they're all mind controlled"

proditor

Oct 3rd, '03, 06:42 PM

Yeah, I almost fell out of my seat on that set of lines. Absolutely classic. :)

And yes, if we make this a verbal duel, I have to change my vote to Clint right quick. ;)

Hugh Neilson

Oct 4th, '03, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by proditor
And yes, if we make this a verbal duel, I have to change my vote to Clint right quick. ;)

Clint is definitely a quicker wit than Ollie. Doesn't make him a better (or worse) bowman, of course. It's another example of Clint being good at a lot of things where Ollie's got one schtick and isn't that great at anything outside it (ignoring his chili, I suppose ;) )

proditor

Oct 4th, '03, 07:49 PM

Well, if history is any judge, Ollie is the better ladies man. Clint did okay, but he wasn't in Ollie's league back in the day.

Hermit

Oct 4th, '03, 10:52 PM

Hmm, I hate to admit it...but yeah, Green Arrow is definitely the cupid of our two archers.

Hugh Neilson

Oct 5th, '03, 08:01 AM

Hawkeye's choices always seemed doomed - Black Widow (first a criminal, then Daredevil's girlfriend), then Scarlet Witch (spurned for an artificial life form). But he did have a more mature relationship with Mockingbird - I can't imagine Ollie tying the knot!

Hermit

Oct 5th, '03, 04:03 PM

Yeah, the breaking up with, then later killing of Mockingbird depressed the heck out of me when it occured.

JmOz

Oct 5th, '03, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson
Hawkeye's choices always seemed doomed - Black Widow (first a criminal, then Daredevil's girlfriend), then Scarlet Witch (spurned for an artificial life form). But he did have a more mature relationship with Mockingbird - I can't imagine Ollie tying the knot!

I can imagine him getting married...I just see him having a problem with staying faithfull

The real question is why does Dianah keep coming back to him?

Agent X

Oct 5th, '03, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
Yeah, the breaking up with, then later killing of Mockingbird depressed the heck out of me when it occured. The word pointless come to mind.

keithcurtis

Oct 5th, '03, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
Yeah, the breaking up with, then later killing of Mockingbird depressed the heck out of me when it occured.

Women in Refrigerators (http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/) is the quintessential site on this subject. It really is a depressingly common thing for comic book writers to resort to.

Keith "Wonder Woman never found Steve Trevor's body tucked into a Frigidaire..." Curtis

Hugh Neilson

Oct 5th, '03, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by keithcurtis
Women in Refrigerators (http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/) is the quintessential site on this subject. It really is a depressingly common thing for comic book writers to resort to.

When you want to stir up interest, change the character's supporting cast and/or personal status. A baby, a death, a marriage, a resurrection - it's all out there for sales.

It's amazing Lois Lane has lived for as long as she has.

Hugh Neilson

Oct 5th, '03, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by JmOz
I can imagine him getting married...I just see him having a problem with staying faithfull

The real question is why does Dianah keep coming back to him?

With all the techno-gear Oracle keeps giving her, she can't afford the XP to buy off her psychological limitation "Always falls for the wrong guy" ;)

Hermit

Oct 6th, '03, 02:38 PM

Okay ,that WIR site is a bit disturbing, but I must admit I like the feed back they've gotten from various comic book writers.

csyphrett

Oct 6th, '03, 05:03 PM

Arrow only had two girlfriends before he met BC. It's only after Grell relaunched him that he became a womanizer. I guess they couldn't write faithfulness in the relationship since he had been doing it for so long.

Agent X

Oct 6th, '03, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by csyphrett
Arrow only had two girlfriends before he met BC. It's only after Grell relaunched him that he became a womanizer. I guess they couldn't write faithfulness in the relationship since he had been doing it for so long. I think it's the need to make supers more realistic by making them like people I don't hang out with.

Hermit

Oct 6th, '03, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Agent X
I think it's the need to make supers more realistic by making them like people I don't hang out with.

Mmm, yeah, well, I LIKED GA from what I saw, but I didn't see the total revamp in the 80s. Was he turned into a total jackass? :(

csyphrett

Oct 6th, '03, 08:11 PM

I read maybe one issue and put it down. His kid whom he concieved at the monastery turned into a better character than the wreck they left in my opinion. I was kind of glad Dixon killed Queen off just browsing the title back then. They couldn't even get his age right.

Chuckg

Oct 6th, '03, 08:19 PM

Add my vote to the pile of votes marked 'Connor Hawke was the better character, Dixon gave Ollie a good death, and they should never have resurrected him.'

assault

Oct 7th, '03, 02:00 AM

He wasn't being too much of a pig in the early stages of the 80's revamp. His kid (with the female Japanese archer, Shado) was conceived when he was delirious, and his relationship with Dinah was a fairly long-term serious thing, despite its various stresses. There were odd bits, like Ollie's extended trip to Africa, which frankly never made much sense to me, but the overall thing was marginally reasonable.

That's up to about 1991-1992. I don't know about later.

As for him being killed off - no. That was pointless character mutilation. Both DC and Marvel have exhibited a bit of tendency to engage in that over the last decade or so, it seems. I mean, the '80s mutilations DC engaged in had a point, kind of, and many of the changes were for the better, and others were tolerable (and others sucked to an unimaginable degree).

The last decade's stuff just doesn't make sense. Has it demonstrably allowed the companies to sell more books? That's the only legitimate reason I can think of for them doing it. It certainly makes no artistic sense - unless, of course, there is a real shortage of decent writers out there.

Alan