The Prospects of PDF Sales

[Crimson-Hawk]

This is a "child thread," if you will. The original is here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7924

I started this new thread to continue the discussion of PDF products... and leave the discussion of Strike Force in the original thread.

After reading the Strike Force thread, and the direction it steered after Steve's response about Hero Plus, I'm experiencing a jumble of mixed emotions. I probably shouldn't be typing this, considering how tired I am (Underworld is a fantastic movie, btw, if you don't nitpick everything and just enjoy it as a movie). But I'm going to try it anyway.

I'm heartened by the fast that Aaron has so much material prepped for Strike Force. Regardless of whatever state of prep it's actually in (I'm not assuming that it's fully prepped and ready for editting and layout, nor am I assuming it's not), that Aaron has that much interest in it raises the possibility of it's eventual publication in whatever format via whatever avenue. I'm lucky to have scored a copy of the original and it serves me to this day as inspiration, as I am an aspiring writer as well.

However, the prospects of the Hero Plus line frightens me. Despite Steve's assurances, I can't help but feel I "cut it under the wire," to use a metaphor of my own, in turning my proposal in. While my upcoming title is more than an adventure, as Polaris pointed out for Strike Force, there are all the factors that now weigh especially hard on my shoulders. Allen is a trusted writer, if not an established one... he was hired by Steve and set to work on a half-dozen writing and editing projects for very good reasons. I don't have that enviable position... I have a few articles in Digital Hero that has recieved mixed reviews and that's it.

And once Steve gets my manuscript, he has to edit it and direct me to corrections that meet his exacting standards. Once I've happily made those corrections, he has to go through and edit it again, probably with several passes through, before being happy enough to hand it over to Andy. Then Andy has to plan out the book, contract artists, obtain the art pieces, and lay out the book. Once Andy has produced the PDF files, then Ben and Dan have to incorporate it into online store. That doesn't even touch the work Darren and Tina do to keep the books and handle whatever hype goes out about the product. That means that not only does Hero Games have to pay me, they have to pay the artists for their work, then pay themselves for their own work.

That, by the way, is an explanation from a third party person who actually hasn't seen the process... I've much more than likely missed steps or straight-out gotten steps wrong. But you get the picture... There's a lot of work that goes into making even a PDF book.

I'm now scared. What if my book doesn't sell well? The whole fate of the Hero Plus line may lay on the shoulders of my book, despite the fact that a couple of other very good products are already in the works that will probably hit the virtual shelves before mine does. What if the sales of my book tanks, thus leading DoJ to believe PDF publication to be completely unprofitable? Whether or not I'm justified to feel these anxieties, it now weighs heavily on me.

I've asked the Hero public for opinions for what they want to see in a great product. And I've gotten mild turn-outs for those opinions. Those opinions that have been spoken have been spoken very well and have been extremely helpful to me. While Meriquai Falls is not exactly the same as it was when I wrote my first article, I feel it is much closer to what the public actually wants and not what I want.

But, I'm worried. If an adventure featuring a main-stream, classic villain and written by an author as well-written as Allen Thomas isn't getting the sales DoJ is hoping for... how will a book vastly larger (and thus more expensive) and written by a far less established author stack?

Maybe I'm just paranoid...

-- Dale "No, MF will not have near as many unnecessary ellipses as this..." Robbins

[Hermit]

While this is probably cold comfort, sometimes it's something 'new' that catches interest more easily. People are familar with Black Palidan, and while I hear EXCELLENT things about the plot, our very familiarity with the character maybe just as big a hinderence as a help. Every GM out there maybe thinking "nothing I couldn't do myself" and that maybe so or maybe not, it's a thought more likely to occur with already published things. Now, Meriquai Falls already appeared in one form in DH, but as you've said, the version you're working on is much changed, further more DH is not going to be as widely read as CKC.

So your stuff, for all intents and purposes, will have the edge of being "new" to us, perhaps even innovative in ways we never expected. You might, in a way, have an easier sell.

*Knock on wood and all that*

[Lord Liaden]

Dale, I don't know if this will be of any comfort to you. I'm just going to offer my philosopy as a person involved in the theater business, where you also live or die financially by how the public responds to you:

As a creator, you pour your heart and soul into your work. You want to share the fruits of your creativity with other people so that they can enjoy it too, but that means you're putting part of yourself out hoping for public approval. Naturally that's an intimidating prospect.

You offered your work to DoJ, and they accepted it because they believed in it enough to want to develop it. Everything isn't riding on you; other intelligent, experienced people also believed this was worth trying.

Maybe it indeed won't sell that well. I personally don't believe that having seen some of your work, but that doesn't matter because no one can predict with certainty how the audience will respond to anything. We can take educated guesses, but even the most experienced of us are often surprised. That's why there's no single "formula for success."

There's no profit in worrying about how your work will be received. Your job and your responsibility as a creator is to create the best quality work that you can, and when given the opportunity, put it out there for the people to enjoy. After that it's out of your hands.

Some of the best advice I ever heard came from Will Rogers: "Worry is like paying interest on a debt you may never owe." ;)

[JmOz]

Dale

Do not question, have faith that in the end all will work out the way itis intended to.

BTW, I hope you have not chaged MF to much, as I quite liked it the way that it was...

[OddHat]

Dale, I'm not saying it will, but this could happen, and it would be Your Fault:

1) PDF sales could go badly, driving Steve Long into a fit of mad despair. This would, of course, be your fault.

2) Steve, deranged by grief, could turn his rage upon the federal government, and hatch a mad plan to personally confront George W. Bush. This would, of course, be your fault.

4) Fueled by tequila and indignation, wearing only his dragon-motif silk bathrobe and a pair of black Speedos, Steve could sneak into the White House, storm into what he believes to be the oval office, and launch into an impassioned tirade on the rights of man and in particular how those rights apply to the small press owner. This would, of course, be your fault.

5) Steve could then discover that he has been delivering his tirade not in the oval office, but in the Lincoln Bedroom, currently occupied by the very drunk Bush twins. Enflamed with desire, the twins might then overpower Steve, forcing him to engage in hours of twisted debauchery the likes of which the mind of man could barely conceive. This would, of course, be your fault.

6) In the morning the exhausted trio might then be discovered by President Bush himself. Filled with shame over the behavior of his daughters, the president might then respond by ordering nuclear strikes on North Korea, Syria, and France. Millions, perhaps billions could die in a fiery holocaust, all because you, personally, were not quite an entertaining enough writer!

I hope you can live with that.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Hermit
While this is probably cold comfort, sometimes it's something 'new' that catches interest more easily. People are familar with Black Palidan, and while I hear EXCELLENT things about the plot, our very familiarity with the character maybe just as big a hinderence as a help. Every GM out there maybe thinking "nothing I couldn't do myself" and that maybe so or maybe not, it's a thought more likely to occur with already published things.[/B]

I hate to be the one to say it, but that was my exact opinion of SoB. I don't actually regret purchasing SoB but I was underwhelmed with it. I am currently planning to purchase MF when it comes out, though.

To me -- and I know I'm in the minority here -- I don't need the paper copy unless it's reference material. Even though I have binding equipment here at the house, I generally only print out the pages I need when I purchase a PDF product -- character sheets, new game material (for example, feat lists for a d20 product), that sort of thing.

[Crimson-Hawk]

Originally posted by OddHat
Dale, I'm not saying it will, but this could happen, and it would be Your Fault:

{snip}

I hope you can live with that.

I'll try my best, though it will be hard to bear the weight of millions of lost lives on my conscience.

Exchanges of sarcasm aside, I'm not worried about Steve. Steve is an educated man with a strong tactical sense in business and law. His life will carry on with or without Hero Plus, because he knows exactly how he's running Hero Games. I don't doubt that for a second.

Quite selfishly, I'm worried about myself. If I help to engineer the fall of the Hero Plus line, that will reflect poorly on my author's "resume" on any future products. As being a game designer and artist are ultimate goals for me, that would be professional suicide.

However, the responses from Hermit, Lord Liaden, JmOz, and TheEmerged are encouraging and also shine light on details I hadn't considered when I entered my fit of (apparently in your opinion uncalled-for) paranoia. And I thank them for that.

You guys all rock! :D

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Crimson-Hawk
I'll try my best, though it will be hard to bear the weight of millions of lost lives on my conscience.


I liked the digital hero version of MF. Your book'll do fine. As to the whole resume thing, more sales are always better, but relatively low sales on a pdf product won't hurt you particularly.

So, no worries.

Glad to hear you're OK with the whole WWIII thing. ;)

[Polaris]

Crimson,

I am not familiar with the setting you are writing about (I am fairly new to DH).

I do believe that you have a few advantages that you might want to consider:

1. The book seems to be a SETTING book, rather than an adventure. A setting book is more beneficial to people in the long term (not "use it once" item), and therefore would have more appeal to someone who might need to print it out at Kinkos and get it bound.

2. You make a good point about Steve Long having a good tactical business sense. Darren and Steve are going to learn from the disappointing results of SoB, and adapt the Hero Plus line accordingly. For example, as many people pointed out, the general gaming public did not have access to SoB (probably did not even know it existed). This can potentially be corrected by putting it up on rpgnow (I think that is the name of the site that sells pdfs). I expect that your product will get more of a push in that way than SoB did (although, I do believe DOJ pushed SoB about as hard as it could on their own site, they will likely broaden the push to other sites now).

3. I do not mean any disrespect by this: I would disagree that Allen is a far more established writer than you are. I do not know what he has written aside from SoB, and he may have written more, but I think he is just now building a base of 'fans'. The comparison I meant with Strike Force was that Aaron has that base of fans now. You will build that base too, but it will take time (and perhaps several books) to do so.

Remember, Steve Long had to build that base of customers for his work too.

Good luck!
Polaris

PS: If this book does not work out as well as you are hoping, do not be discouraged! Remember, even the greats weren't always a hit. :)

[rjcurrie]

Dale:

You are being paranoid.

You were contracted to provide a product that Hero Games thinks should sell enough to be profitable. They know your writing ability. If it doesn't sell, I don't think that will have any effect on your "resume" as an author. What WILL effect that "resume" is the quality of the work that you produce. I'm sure there are many people currently writing in the RPG industry that had poorly selling first products.

With that being said, I think you should produce the product that you want to produce. If Steve (or possibly Allen) thinks that the product needs changes, he will let you know (or make them himself). I worry when authors start changing their creative vision to meet what they think the public want. Oten that causes them not to do their best work. Writers often work best when they are passionate about their subject matter. If they lose that passion, their writing can become workmanlike, lacking the spark that originally inspired them. Also, remember, that any comments you may have received are from a very small percentage of Hero fans and may not represent at all what the general public wants. I want to see your MF, not some version of MF that you think may have more appeal to the "general public".

If the product does not sell, it is not your fault. It is the fault of Hero Games. They may have made a mistake in thinking that it would sell or they may have chosen the wrong format or they may have not promoted it well enough. I think it is best for you not to worry about it, but to put all your efforts into creating the best product you can. In the end, that is what is important.

Just my 2 cents Canadian (~1.42 cents American),

Rod Currie

[rjcurrie]

Originally posted by Polaris
This can potentially be corrected by putting it up on rpgnow (I think that is the name of the site that sells pdfs). I expect that your product will get more of a push in that way than SoB did (although, I do believe DOJ pushed SoB about as hard as it could on their own site, they will likely broaden the push to other sites now).

I believe DOJ/Hero Games is selling SOB on RPGnow.

Rod

[Ben Seeman]

That is correct.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by OddHat
Dale, I'm not saying it will, but this could happen, and it would be Your Fault:

1) PDF sales could go badly, driving Steve Long into a fit of mad despair. This would, of course, be your fault.

2) Steve, deranged by grief, could turn his rage upon the federal government, and hatch a mad plan to personally confront George W. Bush. This would, of course, be your fault.

4) Fueled by tequila and indignation, wearing only his dragon-motif silk bathrobe and a pair of black Speedos, Steve could sneak into the White House, storm into what he believes to be the oval office, and launch into an impassioned tirade on the rights of man and in particular how those rights apply to the small press owner. This would, of course, be your fault.

5) Steve could then discover that he has been delivering his tirade not in the oval office, but in the Lincoln Bedroom, currently occupied by the very drunk Bush twins. Enflamed with desire, the twins might then overpower Steve, forcing him to engage in hours of twisted debauchery the likes of which the mind of man could barely conceive. This would, of course, be your fault.

6) In the morning the exhausted trio might then be discovered by President Bush himself. Filled with shame over the behavior of his daughters, the president might then respond by ordering nuclear strikes on North Korea, Syria, and France. Millions, perhaps billions could die in a fiery holocaust, all because you, personally, were not quite an entertaining enough writer!

I hope you can live with that.
I heartily concur, and further prognosticate that this will cause a harsh nuclear winter, blotting out the sun, and causing the death of not only billions of humans but also the demise of most of Earths fragile ecosystem, which of course is innocent in this whole affair.

This will spur Arnold Swarzenegger, who (being more machine now than man) will of course survive this debacle and be most upset at these events interference with his political aspirations, to go back in time to kill your father and/or mother, thus erasing the whole event from the time stream.

I made a model illustrating the cause-and-effect involved in my garage yesterday afternoon (obviously some things are not to exact scale). It bears out Odd Hats brilliant forecast in almost every detail (although their seems to be an equal chance of Steve cavorting with Mrs. Bush herself -- the future is not always clear on the minor details and such small discrepencies are well within the error tolerance of this sort of thing).

Ive got to say CH, in all good conscience you should never write anything at all, ever again. Your written word has a destructive power on par with the spoken words of Blackbolt of Inhuman fame, or of an asteroid the size of Texas careening off the surface of the planet (which may or may not happen even if you dont write anything depending on who you believe -- life's a real bitch sometimes).

Really, it would probably be safer if you just killed yourself and saved the rest of us from worrying about what you might or might not write and whether the world as we know it will collapse shortly thereafter.


--Granted, this is all a "worst case scenario", but I dont think we really want to take that chance.....so "NO PDF FOR YOU; 1 Millenia!"

[Killer Shrike]

Of course, if we all clap our hands at the TV screen we can save Tinkerbell, who will sprinkle magic pixie dust liberally on Steve Long and Geoarge Bush which could well avert this disaster. Then her cousins, the Keebler Elves, will pass out cookies to everyone and the entire world will join hands and sing "We Are The World". This event will show mankind that we are all really the same, spurring the adoption of a world government and global peace.

So, with roughly equal chances of nuclear holocaust and global unification, I as an optimist have to say -- go for it Crimson-Hawk! Full speed ahead with HERO Plus products! The world needs to be a better place!

[mattingly]

Unfortunately, with the Keeblers involved, we'll all have to inhale helium before we sing. The resulting exhalation will make the entire planet lighter than air, and we'll all hurtle into the sun.

But as long as Meriquai Falls comes out before then, I'm okay with that.

[Darren Watts]

Okay, first of all, the world being united under a single peaceful government is probably much more horrifying to Steve than the putative apocalypse, if I know the man at all. Though the tequila-fueled rampage through the White House part sounds right.

Secondly, Dale, while we appreciate your concerns on our behalf, making Hero Plus a successful line is our job, not yours. Your job is to deliver as good a product as you can, according to the specifications we agreed on. If we didn't think there was a market for your work, we wouldn't have asked you for it.

And believe me, if Hero Plus does not succeed as a line, the reflection won't be on the writers who worked on it. Most, if not all professional writers have worked on projects that tanked for some reason or another. If it should happen (and I, for one, am nowhere near ready to give up on Hero Plus as a line), just consider it part of earning your stripes as a professional. If you do good work, future employers aren't going to care that you were published in a poor-selling line. And certainly nobody's going to hold you personally responsible; heck, we've already shown we can produce a poor-selling product without your help! ;) If it happens, it'll just be another story you can tell in a bar full of crusty old game veterans someday.

OK, enough negativity. Back to work making Hero Plus a successful line, everybody! dw

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
...heck, we've already shown we can produce a poor-selling product without your help!
Yeah, I've got that MORE than covered. :(

[Lord Liaden]

Hey, Dale, you ought to take a look at "The Kandris Seal" thread on the "Other Genres" forum. That's an e-book that seems to be selling better than expected, and it's a general sourcebook not unlike yours.

It can happen. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Yeah, I've got that MORE than covered. :(

Sorry to hear that, Ben. Maybe you and Crimson-Hawk could found a writers' support group. ;)

[Crimson-Hawk]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Yeah, I've got that MORE than covered. :(

Ben, if you're talking about the Spacer's Toolkit, the only reason I haven't bought that is because my FLGS hasn't had but one copy of it ever and that sold rather quickly. I'm about ready to swallow my pride again and mail order it.

So, don't you start that. I'm the only one who's allowed to be self-pitiful. Any more than that and this place will become a very depressing place! :D

[Steve Long]

Okay, first of all, the world being united under a single peaceful government is probably much more horrifying to Steve than the putative apocalypse, if I know the man at all.

My like or dislike of any such institution is directly proportional to my degree of power, authority, or influence within it. ;)

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Steve Long
My like or dislike of any such institution is directly proportional to my degree of power, authority, or influence within it. ;) Sounds like a good quote to put in the next book you write, eh? Go on I dare you. :D

[GreyGuardian]

Actually that quote is probably really easy to work into a Pulp Hero character. I was going to say villain but . . . oops.