Internal TK attack

[Arthur]

GURPS has an optional rule for telekinetics whereby they can reach inside a living target and damage internal organs (or rip wires in robots, etc). This is a cool, very in-genre for psionics, but VERY potent effect.

Here is my take on it for HERO:

1d RKA.

BOECV: +1

AVLD: +1 1/2 (vs. Mental Defense).

Does BODY: +1

IPE: All but Mental Group: +1/2.

RSR: INT Roll at -4 or Physiology (or Paramedics or similiar): -1/2 (to visualize the inside of the target).

Concentrate (half DCV): -1/4.

Can be resisted by another telekinetic (STR 10 will nullify): -1/4.


Total Active Cost: 75

Real Cost: 37

Whaddya think? Anybody? Bueller?

[Zed-F]

How about something a LOT simpler.

xd6 EGO Attack, Does BODY (+1). Add limitations to taste.

[OddHat]

You don't need AVLD if you have BOECV. Just use BOECV vs Mental Defense (+1), Does Body (+1).

Except that iirc the GURPS effect bypassed any defense at all. Maybe use an RKA NND vs FF (+1), Indirect (+1/2), Does Body (+1), plus whatever limits seem useful. Or use penetrating instead of NND.

Many ways to simulate it.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by OddHat

You don't need AVLD if you have BOECV. Just use BOECV vs Mental Defense (+1), Does Body (+1).


Oh. Duh. AVLD is too expensive anyway. Do I also need IPE after buying BOECV? I want it to be visible only to Mental Awareness. My FRED is packed away right now.




Except that iirc the GURPS effect bypassed any defense at all. Maybe use an RKA NND vs FF (+1),


I didn't want it to be quite as fearsome as it is in GURPS. As it stands there, it is really mostly for horrific unstoppable psychic foes. Also, GURPS doesn't have the range of defenses HERO has: Mental Defense seemed a natural. I can't imagine a psionic telekinetic being able to pull this off on Professor X, for instance.

However, there is no way to reality check it, so it's just a matter of opinion. As long as there IS a defense that is reasonably common...

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Arthur


Oh. Duh. AVLD is too expensive anyway. Do I also need IPE after buying BOECV? I want it to be visible only to Mental Awareness. My FRED is packed away right now.[/B]

Officially yes, you'd still need IPE if the attack was only detectable by mental senses. OTOH, I treat effects bought as BOECV as having invisible to normal sight built in as long as the special effects make sense; in a psionics heavy campaign it doesn't make enough of a difference to matter.

YMMV.

[Sociotard]

It's a good idea. I might add that PD defenses may apply if they aren't bought as mere "external covering" (Man, what kind of wiring did they put in this robot? it's like trying to yank out tree roots!)

This also gives me an Idea of how to create a desolidified characters ability to reach in your chest and grip your heart.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Sociotard
It's a good idea. I might add that PD defenses may apply if they aren't bought as mere "external covering" (Man, what kind of wiring did they put in this robot? it's like trying to yank out tree roots!)


Makes sense, but I've always been uncomfortable assigning game effects by special effect like this. You have two characters, each with Armor 7/7. One has it bought as "Steel Body", the other as "Kevlar bodysuit". Same points, same Power, yet one is immune.

This does lead to other questions, though: Would not a "brick" type character get some defense against this just from sheer robustness? This is getting more complex (how unusual... :rolleyes: )

[Zed-F]

Oh. Duh. AVLD is too expensive anyway. Do I also need IPE after buying BOECV? I want it to be visible only to Mental Awareness. My FRED is packed away right now.

Yes, according to the rules. Hence my suggestion for an EGO attack, it is automatically invisible to everything but mental awareness.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Arthur
This does lead to other questions, though: Would not a "brick" type character get some defense against this just from sheer robustness? This is getting more complex (how unusual... :rolleyes: )

Why would a brick be more immune just because he's tougher? He's already got extra BODY and STUN to simulate his toughness.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Arthur
Makes sense, but I've always been uncomfortable assigning game effects by special effect like this. You have two characters, each with Armor 7/7. One has it bought as "Steel Body", the other as "Kevlar bodysuit". Same points, same Power, yet one is immune.

Well, that is part and parcel of the NND Advantage. Special Effects *do* matter when devising NNDefenses. Some Martial Maneuvers have "Rigid Armor" as defense, for instance.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Rene
Well, that is part and parcel of the NND Advantage. Special Effects *do* matter when devising NNDefenses. Some Martial Maneuvers have "Rigid Armor" as defense, for instance.

Yeah. Good point. Pointing out that this is really BOECV and not an NND or an AVLD would be excessively nitpicky, even for me.

Have you noticed that we have enough acronyms around here to start a Federal Agency?

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. I wonder if you could define something as AVLD vs. Damage Resistance. So normal PD, Armor, FF, etc., would all be useless, but if someone actually made their natural defenses resistant using Damage Resistance (and maybe Density Increase).... Certainly it would work to do a NND vs. Damage Resistance, and AVLD is more expensive, right? :)

[Farkling]

Drain BODY - BOECV will mess objects up quite nicely, won't it?

Would characters take STUN = to Drained BODY ?? I can't find a specification. :)

It has a different flavor than the multiply stacked RKA construct...and mimics the psychic necessity of concentrating on the object until it is destroyed...

[BNakagawa]

Why is it always BOECV?

If you buy it that way, my automaton is now immune to your TK that is supposedly able to rip internal wiring and components...

Also, BOECV doesn't really work for me, cause if I'm trying to target someone that is really hard to hit but has a low EGO, what is it about a TK sfx that makes it trivial to target his internal organs, when regular TK has a hard time targetting his whole body?

My take: RKA with penetration. Maybe some extra AP/Pen to strip away Hardened defenses.

$0.02

[Zed-F]

Because he wants a power that's a mentalism-based form of TK. Take a look above, he wants it invisible to everything but mental senses.

If he wanted it to be based on a physical form of TK (say, force fields or whatever) then your suggestion might be more appropriate.

[austenandrews]

If you want to be thorough, you might consider Indirect. It would seem silly if you could reach through ultradense power armor but not a plaster wall. :)

BOECV gives you some of Indirect's advantages, granted, especially if you combine it with Mind Scan.

-AA

[Rene]

RKA, Does Body, BOECV, Indirect, NND (Defense: Unusual Internal Structure, Desolidification, Density Powers).

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Rene
RKA, Does Body, BOECV, Indirect, NND (Defense: Unusual Internal Structure, Desolidification, Density Powers).

Add in 0 End Cost and Continuous. Total advantage will be (I think) +5, or 90 active points per d6. On the other hand, you can hit the target with multiple "hooks" while maintaining the first attack; thus, 1d6 in the first phase, 2d6 in the second, 3d6 in the third, all from the comfort of your own living room if you used Mind Scan to find your target in the first place...

(from Steve's comments on related questions, indirect isn't strictly needed for a BOECV power, but invisibility to sight group might be)

[Arthur]

Originally posted by OddHat
Add in 0 End Cost and Continuous. Total advantage will be (I think) +5, or 90 active points per d6. On the other hand, you can hit the target with


This looks pretty good. I think it SHOULD be extremely expensive. It is a fearsome attack that is difficult to defend against (I rated "can be resisted by another telekinetic" as a -1/4: it won't come up often, but when it does it is nullified completely). I also added RSR and Concentration.

However, Continuous is not necessarily in concept. It could very well be an attack that you perform separately each time. I didn't want to necessarily mimic the GURPS construct EXACTLY - it has serious game balance problems I'd just as soon leave out.

However, it is certainly an option. 0 END is also optional - it just depends on how mental powers work in your view. Are they tiring? Who knows? No way to reality-check it.



multiple "hooks" while maintaining the first attack; thus, 1d6 in the first phase, 2d6 in the second, 3d6 in the third, all from the comfort of your own living room if you used Mind Scan to find your target in the first place...


That is definitely NOT in concept at all, even in GURPS. The SE is that you have to visualize and concentrate on what you are damaging. It requires mental focus on one attack. I don't see any rules anywhere that allow such an approach.



(from Steve's comments on related questions, indirect isn't strictly needed for a BOECV power, but invisibility to sight group might be)

That's what I thought. Now that it's been mentioned, Indirect still might be better - the effect is psionic at its source, but it is physical damage at the target. An RSR based on EGO or a Psionics Skill would be enough to establish its "mental-ness".

Good ideas from everyone! Thanks!

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Arthur That is definitely NOT in concept at all, even in GURPS. The SE is that you have to visualize and concentrate on what you are damaging. It requires mental focus on one attack. I don't see any rules anywhere that allow such an approach.

Just souping it up a bit. ;)

Note that multiple "hooks" with a continuous power are rule-legal in Hero system.

I wouldn't allow it in most of my campaigns either. :cool:

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
Why is it always BOECV?

If you buy it that way, my automaton is now immune to your TK that is supposedly able to rip internal wiring and components...
Is that right? An Automaton is immune to Mental Powers that work against Ego, but does this mean that any attack based on ECV cannot be used against them? I don't have the book, but I would think I could target an Automaton with my BOECV RKA (so long as it is still based on a non-mental defense); all I have to do is concentrate on the target I want to hit, not "aim". As a GM, I would probably even make the Automaton 0 ECV to hit, since it cannot mentally "evade" the attack (0 Ego).

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by prestidigitator
Is that right? An Automaton is immune to Mental Powers that work against Ego, but does this mean that any attack based on ECV cannot be used against them? I don't have the book, but I would think I could target an Automaton with my BOECV RKA (so long as it is still based on a non-mental defense); all I have to do is concentrate on the target I want to hit, not "aim". As a GM, I would probably even make the Automaton 0 ECV to hit, since it cannot mentally "evade" the attack (0 Ego).
Hmm. Or maybe not. I just realized maybe this is the No Range Modifier Advantage instead of BOECV. Perhaps with an Automaton there is no "mind" to hook the attack on.

Wow. It seems like it might make sense to have an Advantage that lets you use your ECV against their DCV (not DECV). I wonder what that would be worth. Probably less than BOECV.

[Rene]

According to the Ultimate Mentalist, Telekinetic BOEVs can work differently from standard Mental Powers. The attacker uses EGO, but the defender uses DEX-Based DCV to defend.

Maybe that would be the case with a TK attack defined as tearing the target from inside.

[Rene]

Originally posted by prestidigitator
Wow. It seems like it might make sense to have an Advantage that lets you use your ECV against their DCV (not DECV). I wonder what that would be worth. Probably less than BOECV.

Yep, that is pretty much the rule in The Ultimate Mentalist I was refering to. But the value is still the same as basic BOECV (at least by the book, I think +3/4 could be more appropriate in some campaigns).

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Rene
Yep, that is pretty much the rule in The Ultimate Mentalist I was refering to. But the value is still the same as basic BOECV (at least by the book, I think +3/4 could be more appropriate in some campaigns).
Ah! I will have to look that up. I have the Ultimate Mentalist (at least an old copy of it).

[pinecone]

Don't have my book...but I believe that this is a standard option for BOECV, you chose when you build it if it targets vs DX as well as if it targets regular PD or ED or Mental...I once built this concept (sort of) as RKA:Pen:IPE:Indirect...The IPE was +1/2 I think because Mental awareness worked to locate and detect.....(Looong time ago) Ego attack,does body,does KB is a pretty good PK Blast as well.......(maybe add X2 KB?)

[zornwil]

I'd want to define just how the mentalist rips through the body in some level of detail, that should flesh the details out.

How does he reach in with his mind, i.e., what STOPS his mind from reaching in? Is he forcing his mental waves through physical barriers, or is it prevented by mental counter-strikes? That's a key question I'm unsure of. If the former, it's very much TK-based, if the latter it's very much EGO-based. Also, we should get an idea if he's fixing on minds or objects in longer-range targetting (if applicable) - is he mind-scanning or clairsentient?

From those SFX the rest should be "easy" to nail. Yeah, right... :p Less hard, anyway.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by zornwil
How does he reach in with his mind, i.e., what STOPS his mind from reaching in? Is he forcing his mental waves through physical barriers, or is it prevented by mental counter-strikes? That's a key question I'm unsure of. If the former, it's very much TK-based, if the latter it's very much EGO-based. Also, we should get an idea if he's fixing on minds or objects in longer-range targetting (if applicable) - is he mind-scanning or clairsentient?
...or does the target's mind ("psychometabolically") cause his/her body to shred itself from the inside....

By the way, I believe the standard rules for Clairsentience do not allow you to establish Line of Sight. I can understand this in terms of game balance, but it doesn't make a whole bunch of intuitive sense. I guess you could buy a Linked Mind Scan, and your attack roll would be excellent since you only have to narrow down from a group of one mind....

[OddHat]

Originally posted by prestidigitator
By the way, I believe the standard rules for Clairsentience do not allow you to establish Line of Sight. I can understand this in terms of game balance, but it doesn't make a whole bunch of intuitive sense. I guess you could buy a Linked Mind Scan, and your attack roll would be excellent since you only have to narrow down from a group of one mind....

The USPDB has at least one exception to that rule (TV Teleport), maybe more. Personally I allow a 10 point Targeting Sense adder for Clairsentience to allow line of sight; if you want to use it for targeting mental powers, add Clairsentience for the Mental group as well.

I've used this extensively in play, and I haven't seen any problems from it in a Mentalist heavy game.

[Caveman]

Originally posted by OddHat
The USPDB has at least one exception to that rule (TV Teleport), maybe more. Personally I allow a 10 point Targeting Sense adder for Clairsentience to allow line of sight; if you want to use it for targeting mental powers, add Clairsentience for the Mental group as well.

I've used this extensively in play, and I haven't seen any problems from it in a Mentalist heavy game.

I understand that Clairsentience doesn't establish line of sight but, why???
[off topic]
can you use clairsentience to study a place for a floating location for T-Port?
[/off topic]

[Caveman]

Originally posted by Zed-F
How about something a LOT simpler.

xd6 EGO Attack, Does BODY (+1). Add limitations to taste.
Just remember that this doesn't make it a KILLING ATTACK. Normal mental defense would apply(not that everyone has it though). but the damage would be counted as NORMAL dice.

:o