The move to FTP

[archermoo]

Anyone have thoughts on the move of CO to FTP?

[GestaltBennie]

Anyone have thoughts on the move of CO to FTP?

Personally, I think it's happening too soon and this spells the death for significant new content in the game. I also wonder how hard it was for players to deal with the power structure, as "I'm confused on how to make a character", for all of the complexity of its character scheme, was never high on the list of complaints I heard.

However, I'm looking forward to the zone revamps, and I know, with Cata., SWTOR, DCUO and GW2 on the horizon, that 2011 would be a hard year for existing MMOs to compete.

[Nevelon]

Depends how they handle it. I have a lifetime subscription, but don't play much these days. In theory, the FTP model raises more revenue then the subscription one. The "free" play is more like an extended trial, and they can nickel and dime you for more then you would normally pay if you buy things ala cart, or just subscribe. I know LotRO went FTP, and I think that went quite well (lifer there as well). Think of it as them offering more options, rather then them screwing paying customers.

One thing LotRO has, which CO does not look they are going to have, is a way to earn store points in game. This gives free players the ability to earn things (like more quest packs, character slots, etc.) so given enough time and work, they can be just as good as the paying customers. And by "time and work" I'm talking about grinding till your eyes bleed, but the option is there (particularly if you just want some of the perks, not all) With the CO plan it looks like the world will always be divided into haves and have-nots. Free players are always going to be at a disadvantage. This will make it hard to integrate them into the community.

From a business POV, this isn't a "sky is falling/ game is failing" event. Somewhere the bean-counters noticed that this strategy makes more cash. But it is something that needs to be done carefully. There is a lot of bad feelings that can come out of a change like this, so they risk pissing off large chunks of their player base if they flop the implementation.

[archermoo]

From what I understand the only real gameplay impacting thing that silver players can't even purchase that gold players will be able to do is customize their power sets. Everything else looks cosmetic. Whether not being able to create custom power sets will put them at some kind of disadvantage remains to be seen.

[Killer Shrike]

If i knew what it meant I might know how I feel about it.

[Mightybec]

I've tried other Free to Play games, such as DnD Online and LotR, but they just made me want to lay WoW more. I might give Champions online a try when it goes freeplay, which is more of a chance than I've given it before.

[incrdbil]

Anyone have thoughts on the move of CO to FTP?

Call me Han.

[Zed-F]

For me it's a good move, as I've been dormant in CO since the beginning of the year. I got my 4 months in at launch and haven't felt a serious urge to re-up my subscription since, but I have been a bit curious about the changes that have gone into the game as time has gone on.

I might pay for 1 more month of subscription before this goes live to catch my high-level characters up on the latest content, and then I'll start a fresh Silver toon or convert one of my lowbies to Silver. It'll also let my daughter have a chance to participate now that she won't need to pay for an account. :)

[archermoo]

If i knew what it meant I might know how I feel about it.

Sorry, the move of Champions Online to a Free To Play system.

http://www.champions-online.com/f2p

[Nevelon]

From what I understand the only real gameplay impacting thing that silver players can't even purchase that gold players will be able to do is customize their power sets. Everything else looks cosmetic. Whether not being able to create custom power sets will put them at some kind of disadvantage remains to be seen.

My understanding is that silver players are choose a class, and then are locked into a path. So they choose "brute" and get smash at first level, tough at 3, haymaker at 5, etc... (names and levels totally made up for this example) Where a full gold member can choose any power he wants, as long as he follows the rules. Now, if they make the standard builds effective, this won't be much or a problem. The main problem I see is if you want to play a brute with say, fire breath (because you are a lava rock monster or the like) if it's not in the standard build, you can't. The flexibility of the character system is lost, and that's one of the main draws in the game. You can look however you want, but will play the same as every other brute out there (as silver).

(I am no expert, I just spent and hour or two combing the forums a little after the announcement, might be wrong or they may have changed things)

[archermoo]

My understanding is that silver players are choose a class, and then are locked into a path. So they choose "brute" and get smash at first level, tough at 3, haymaker at 5, etc... (names and levels totally made up for this example) Where a full gold member can choose any power he wants, as long as he follows the rules. Now, if they make the standard builds effective, this won't be much or a problem. The main problem I see is if you want to play a brute with say, fire breath (because you are a lava rock monster or the like) if it's not in the standard build, you can't. The flexibility of the character system is lost, and that's one of the main draws in the game. You can look however you want, but will play the same as every other brute out there (as silver).

(I am no expert, I just spent and hour or two combing the forums a little after the announcement, might be wrong or they may have changed things)

Yeah, that's what I meant by Silver players not getting to customize their power sets. It does indeed limit options, though while the customizability is certainly one of the things I like most about CO I also know that there are people that will feel more comfortable with "classes" to play. And for people that feel it is necessary there is always the option to subscribe. As long as the game is playable for people playing the straight archetypes it seems like a pretty reasonable upsell opportunity to me.

[Nevelon]

Yeah, that's what I meant by Silver players not getting to customize their power sets. It does indeed limit options, though while the customizability is certainly one of the things I like most about CO I also know that there are people that will feel more comfortable with "classes" to play. And for people that feel it is necessary there is always the option to subscribe. As long as the game is playable for people playing the straight archetypes it seems like a pretty reasonable upsell opportunity to me.

IMHO one of the main draws of CO (and CoH) is the ability to play -YOUR- hero. Fixed classes is kinda a dealbreaker. It's fine for a free trial, but I'm not sure how well it will do in the long term. It seems most games these days give you a lot of flex within your class. From what I know of LotRO, and what I've heard of WoW, you can take a base class and go different ways with traits and gear. So you can have 2 characters standing side by side, with the same class, but have them play completely differently. While you should still be able to swap gear around as a silver in CO, the impact on play is going to be minor. Not a whole lot of customization there.

[archermoo]

IMHO one of the main draws of CO (and CoH) is the ability to play -YOUR- hero. Fixed classes is kinda a dealbreaker. It's fine for a free trial, but I'm not sure how well it will do in the long term. It seems most games these days give you a lot of flex within your class. From what I know of LotRO, and what I've heard of WoW, you can take a base class and go different ways with traits and gear. So you can have 2 characters standing side by side, with the same class, but have them play completely differently. While you should still be able to swap gear around as a silver in CO, the impact on play is going to be minor. Not a whole lot of customization there.

I don't know how much customization there will be available to non-subscribers. Heck, I don't know if Cryptic is necessarily sure how much customization will be available. They're looking at beta testing the new system next month, and from a lot of their comments on the CO boards it is obvious that very little is written in stone at this point.

[incrdbil]

Yeah, that's what I meant by Silver players not getting to customize their power sets. It does indeed limit options, though while the customizability is certainly one of the things I like most about CO I also know that there are people that will feel more comfortable with "classes" to play. And for people that feel it is necessary there is always the option to subscribe. As long as the game is playable for people playing the straight archetypes it seems like a pretty reasonable upsell opportunity to me.

there are qite a few other limits--limited item slots, limited chatting, not very much technical support, limited travel power selection--there is a matrix comparing everythign out there somewhere. Ill try to find a link.

[mudpyr8]

I might actually play now - once I finish Fallout: New Vegas. I enjoyed the free trial last Halloween, I just can't bring myself to pay for an MMO for as much as I would play.

I think its the best model - free basic content, pay for enhanced content. Continuous demo that you can essentially grow out from.

[Doc Shadow]

It sounds to me like they're pretty desperate for players. YMMV

[Certified]

If you're not WOW you're desperate for players. Some games are just more willing to show a little leg.

[TheQuestionMan]

What the frack is FTP???


Linkage people!


QM

[Doc Shadow]

Free To Play

Means once you buy the game, you don't have to pay the subscription fee to play beyond the first month.

[Steve]

I haven't played for a few months due to Real Life, but I have a lifetime subscription. It looks like I'm not going to be much affected.

[TheQuestionMan]

Oops

My bad

QM

[lemming]

I saw FTP and thought File Transfer Protocol...

[IndianaJoe3]

I saw FTP and thought File Transfer Protocol...

That was my first thought as well. The second was Full Tilt Poker.

I had a two-week free trial back when the game started. I wonder if I'll be able to reactivate that?

[Doc Shadow]

Probably. I was in the free trial last year, then when I bought the game in August all my trial characters were right there waiting for me.

Truthfully, once it goes FTP I'll probably go back and fool around with it once in a while. But my regular game right now is WoW, although I do plan to give both DCU Online and SW:TOR a try when they come out.

[Checkmate]

If you're not WOW you're desperate for players. Some games are just more willing to show a little leg.
Not really. All you need is enough players to make a profit. There are TONS of games out there that don't have the player base of WoW but still make a healthy profit.

Here is the link for the matrix of what Gold gets vs what Silver gets: Clicky (http://www.champions-online.com/f2p_matrix)

[Doc Shadow]

^^^

After looking at this, Screw it, I won't be back.

[Zed-F]

Free To Play

Means once you buy the game, you don't have to pay the subscription fee to play beyond the first month.

Technically, a game where you have to buy the box before you can play (without a monthly fee) is called B2P or Buy to Play.

Free to play games don't require a subscription and are free to download in the first place. Their revenue model is entirely microtransaction-based.

[lemming]

I thought you could just download the client already or is there free trial, buy a key, then no month to month?

[Zed-F]

Currently you can download a free trial, but you need to buy a box to get a key for the full version (down to about $5 if you get it on sale now) and then pay a monthly subscription.

When they go FTP you'll presumably be able to download the complete game for free and have no monthly subscription on the Silver plan. Gold will still have a subscription, unless you're a lifetime subscriber.

[Certified]

I saw FTP and thought File Transfer Protocol...

That's why I thought they tended to abbreviate Free to play as F2P.

[Enforcer84]

^^^

After looking at this, Screw it, I won't be back.

looking at what?

[Zed-F]

Presumably, the info Cryptic hgas put out about the Silver player package and what will/won't be available to F2P players.

[Doc Shadow]

Correct. Effectively all my characters will be unplayable as FTP, since they're all customs.

[Zed-F]

Well you could make a new one or convert one of them. After all, if you're not subscribing right now you aren't playing them anyway. ;)

Personally I plan to leave my high level toons as gold toons (so if I ever do re-up, my high level toons will still be there), and convert a low level toon or make a new one, for those times when I do get an urge to scratch the Champions itch, but not so much so that I'm willing to pay for the privelage.

[Egyptoid]

GBennie, what is Cata. ?

[John Desmarais]

If you're not WOW you're desperate for players. Some games are just more willing to show a little leg.

Even WOW is contemplating switching to a free to play, pay to upgrade kind of model.

[IndianaJoe3]

GBennie, what is Cata. ?

"Cata" is the comon shorthand for, "Cataclysm," which is the next WoW expansion.

[Certified]

The Archetype progression schedule is up. It looks like Gold Characters gain 3 more powers and a few more advantage points. So inately more powerful. That kind of bites.

[Starcloud]

Actually, by the end of the character progression, both Archetypes and Gold characters have the same number of advantage points. There's an extra two advantage points at the end of the progression for Archetype characters. However, Gold characters still get three extra powers.

This is generally a bad move. If you look at the other Free to Play games, primarily Dungeons and Dragons online, they give you exactly the same classes and abilities as you would get with a VIP/Subscription. Further, they give you the exact same character progression whether you pay or play for "free". Poz is going in the wrong direction with this.

[Egyptoid]

re: Cata.

sigh.
while on the one hand I am glad I don't know MMORG lingo.

not knowing what that was made me wonder how a Settlers of Catan MMORPG would work exactly.

[Checkmate]

Who cares about the game, the Costume creator is now FREE!! :D

[Certified]

Who cares about the game, the Costume creator is now FREE!! :D

To a limited extent.

[Zed-F]

But a good point nevertheless. :)

[archermoo]

I thought you could just download the client already or is there free trial, buy a key, then no month to month?

Once they go live with the free to play model you will be able to play without having to buy anything. Not even a key.

I'm already a lifetime subscriber, so it doesn't really impact me much...

[Zed-F]

Some info about the first 8 archetypes they plan to release.

http://www.champions-online.com/node/595112

[Doc Shadow]

Disliking it more and more.

[Certified]

No comment on the hidden snippet of interesting for all paying members?


We've aimed to make each of these Archetypes feel like they had a niche slightly smaller than that defined by their role. For example, The Inferno is very focused on AoE powers, whereas The Savage has some AoE damage, but is much more focused on single targets. While these two don't have any new powers, we have made several new powers to fill out other Archetypes. These powers will of course be available within Frameworks to all free-form heroes.

Say what you want about archetypes, if in creating them it allows developers to find holes in the Frameworks I'm all for it. More options for subscribers is always a bonus.

[incrdbil]

Other good news: Passives will no longer be linked to specifc superstats; all passives will link to whatever SS you choose. More freedom and choice in making characters.

Subscribers get a monthly stipend of C-Store points.

Lifetime subscriptions are back on sale.

New powers, as mentioned above.

This is looking pretty good, actually. ::hugs original lifetime sub tightly::

Oh, about to start a themed supergroup, the Moldy Oldies. You have to play an old superhero coming out of retirement. So far, we have Granny Gatling, Grandapa Gizmo, Pappy Pacemaker, and the Senile Sentinel. Come help us chase those young whippersnapper villains off the Lawn of Justice! Aid us as we strike a blow against the secret headquarters of evil found in every little town. No farmers market will escape our wrath. PM if interested.

[Pattern Ghost]

If the free to play have to use Archetypes, then does that mean returning former subscribers who go free to play won't be able to play their old characters?

I haven't read up on the details of this, seeing as my PC won't run the game well, but I'm mildly curious. (May get a faster PC eventually.)

[Certified]

If the free to play have to use Archetypes, then does that mean returning former subscribers who go free to play won't be able to play their old characters?

This is correct, the player will be able to retain the characters but as long as you are a Silver member you will not have access to them.

[ajackson]

If the free to play have to use Archetypes, then does that mean returning former subscribers who go free to play won't be able to play their old characters?
You won't be able to play the old characters with the old powers. They have said there will be a procedure to convert characters to archetypes.

[Zed-F]

You won't be able to play the old characters with the old powers. They have said there will be a procedure to convert characters to archetypes.
Also, said procedure is optional, and you can keep up to 6 old Gold characters around on an existing account and still create or convert 2 other Silver characters for use and be able to play them. Alternatively, nothing stopping you from making a new account, if you have more than 6 Gold characters you don't want to convert.

I'm not sure how this scales up if you had more than your default 8 character slots to start with, e.g. due to getting characters to level 40 or buying extra slots.

[ajackson]

I'm not sure how this scales up if you had more than your default 8 character slots to start with, e.g. due to getting characters to level 40 or buying extra slots.
I believe they said your 'last 2' slots, whatever that might be, would be available. Also, that any slots purchased at the C-store would remain available.

[Checkmate]

Wow they want $300 for the lifetime sub. Good luck with that.

[gojira]

I was thinking about this. It might be a good thing for CO, but I think it's definitely a good thing for Hero Games. Free to play means more exposure for the Champions property. That can't be bad.

[archermoo]

Wow they want $300 for the lifetime sub. Good luck with that.

Cool, I hadn't realized that they'd started selling lifetime subs for CO again. Though I'll say I got mine for a mite less during the original offering...

[Checkmate]

Cool, I hadn't realized that they'd started selling lifetime subs for CO again. Though I'll say I got mine for a mite less during the original offering...
With City of Heroes I get bored with it pretty quickly, but for awhile I love it. So every so many months I get the urge and I resubscribe. It usually takes less than a month for me to get bored again, and I let the sub run out. Now I've probably done this 10-15 times over the years, and probably will again at $15 a pop that's over $150 and if they offered a lifetime membership for $150 I'd probably do it. The same philosophy applies to Champions Online. If they offered a lifetime sub for $150 I would probably take them up on it. I'm sure I could find it in me to play for 10 months, but at $300 that's 2 years of playing, that's just not worth it to me. I don't think the Free to Play is going to do a lot of either. I don't think it's strong enough to stand on its own without letting people choose their own powers. The biggest draws is choosing your own powers, you take that away, and I don't believe the game has enough left to be a contender.

[baronspam]

A number of games have proved that FTP games typically generate more revenue through their micro-transaction stores than than subscription games do through their subscriptions. Lord of the Rings Online doubled their income by making it FTP.

The thing that really annoys me about FTP however, having now tired the game, is that you can only have full access to custom characters if you have a subscription. The character builder honestly is the most interesting part of the game to me. Actual game play, honestly, I put at a 6.5 to 7 out of 10. But having the ability to mess with the character builder and customer characters is very tempting now that I have tried the game- but at 14.99 a month probably not. I just don't have enought time for it, honestly. Thats why FTP games are great for someone like me. If on a given month I feel like spending some money, I can for some extras, but if I don't have the time or the money on a given month I don't have to and I can still access the game and play a bit. For 14.99 I could always go back to City of Heroes and play the new content there.

[Hermit]

Well, I finally have a computer that I can use to play CO (The requirements were just too demanding for the older systems in the house) and with it free to play I'm giving it a test run. The archetypes are limited, but I guess it is true that you get what you pay for, and the choices aren't bad in and of themselves. I am still not crazy about the skill system and heroes gathering gear fantasy adventurers on a looting spree as a normal thing... but that's more me being a nitpicky genre purist. It's much improved from the beta that I remember.

[Enforcer84]

Herm, PM me your @ over there and maybe we can thwart the forces of evil together on occasion.
My heart is still in WoW but CO calls on occasion. :)

[Hermit]

Herm, PM me your @ over there and maybe we can thwart the forces of evil together on occasion.
My heart is still in WoW but CO calls on occasion. :)

Oh. I'll still be WoWing on and off, and I have other things to do besides CO so I doubt I'll be a regular on that ...
As it is a free to play situation, I only have two slots. Atomic Guardian@Hermit seems to be the one I'm doing better with.

[Zed-F]

Any new folks wanting to join the Hero Games supergroup, feel free to give me or any of the other officers/leaders a shout in-game and we'll be happy to set you up. IIRC you have to be online at the same time as one of us in order for the invite to be made, but otherwise it's not a big deal. :)

My current silver characters:
Frozen Shade@Zed-F - lv26 Glacier
Psi Temptress@Zed-F - lv33 Mind
Flame Temptress@Zed-F - lv22 Inferno
Patient Karma@Zed-F - lv15 Grimoire

[Enforcer84]

Well, I have a lifetime sub so I get great stuff...I was trying to help my FTP friends change the color of their powers, apparently they cannot. Sad.

I'm getting into it more. I have about 8 characters but no one above 13th level

[Certified]

Well, I have a lifetime sub so I get great stuff...I was trying to help my FTP friends change the color of their powers, apparently they cannot. Sad.

I'm getting into it more. I have about 8 characters but no one above 13th level

Westside's new story arc does help to get over the altitus hump.

[Kraven Kor]

I just downloaded and put together a brick; had enough time to get through the intro missions.

Playing with the Hero Builder as, yeah, I don't like the archetypes at all. If I had money I might sub for a month just to play around, but pretty involved in WoW at the moment having just transferred to a RPPVP server with some friends.

The gameplay is fun; hell, if I had money I might just pay to have all the costume options and use it as a much more functional way to put together hero portraits ;)

[Enforcer84]

I've been doing that myself. it's a nice costume generator. And I got to hang with Hermit and Log for a while. And the FTP enabled me to get my girl-pal to take a gander. i think she loves the costume designer but actually playing with her comp is a pain.

[Kraven Kor]

OK yeah I'm a bit hooked, for now, we'll see how long it lasts. I did a 3 month sub because I just had to have the custom archetypes.

Got two characters through the tutorial: Hardcase and Elementra.

[Certified]

OK yeah I'm a bit hooked, for now, we'll see how long it lasts. I did a 3 month sub because I just had to have the custom archetypes.

Got two characters through the tutorial: Hardcase and Elementra.

So tell us about them? Sounds like you did a Behemoth initially what are the new characters like?

[Kraven Kor]

The power selection is a lot better than it was in Beta, for sure. And I definitely feel like they got "brick" right this time - I send guys flying through the air, none of this "Hulk clone love tapping some street punk for 10 minutes."

Once going gold, my first order of business - as it was in beta - was to try and make my official CHAMPIONS character, Hardcase. And so far, I am fairly impressed in comparison to how things were in beta. I didn't like the "Defiance" passive that is the main defense of the brick power pool; with the custom character, I was able to change that to Invulnerability from the Power Armor set, which makes sense and works much better - Hardcase is a cyborg and "invulnerable armor" both sounds and works better than "I get really angry when you hit me." In beta, I chose a ranged power armor attack, and the damage was so far below my HTH attacks because power armor was tied to INT or something, whereas now it seems ALL your powers are based on the super stat you chose. Could very well be wrong.

The archetypes aren't bad; just that for us HEROphiles, custom is for sure the way to go. Hell, I'm up to 6 characters now (making the NPC's from my CHAMPS game for purpose of showing my players who they are fighting) and all are custom but like 3 of them pretty much follow the archetypes so far (a dual pistols / dual blade build, ie. Specialist, and a Mentalist build.) Hardcase is up to 15 now and I am still having a blast - most of his powers are from the brick set, other than Invuln and Power Gauntlets from the Power Armor set.

My biggest sadness right now is the limit to one passive power slot. But at only level 15, I can't say exactly how things will look at 40.

Elementra I have barely messed with, but converted her to custom and am having some trouble figuring out exactly how to build her... Supposed to be a mixture between brick and telekinesis; she turns into Metal and can also telekinetically control inorganic materials - granted, CO can't do what HERO can but I'd like to be as close as possible. Trying to play with Hero Builder but it doesn't seem to enforce the same rules as CO does so far as what powers are available when, etc.

They also have the summoning stuff now, which I really want to play around with.

[Certified]

The following is just some general cometary about feel, function and how powers interact.

A few things that may help:
Invulnerability is king of wading through many a bad thing.
Defiance is all about standing up to the big guys.
Unstoppable changes the focus to dishing out damage This passive is also better if you're planning to go Brawler than anything else.
Enrage, either way, is your friend as a brick.

Not all powers scale with Super Stats but a lot of them do and this makes life a whole lot easier. For example a lot of Healing powers still scale with Presence.

One of the things I really like about Champions Online is that each of those powers feels good and Brick like. At the same time they feel like very different characters with different play styles.

One of the stranger thnigs about Champions Online though is that somehow Force generally makes a better Telekinesis set than Telekinesis, with the exception of the Telekinesis power itself. Most of the powers in the Telekinesis set seemed to be flavored around a Psi-Warrior and feel closer to a Martial Artist than a Mentalist. The Force set on the other hand offers some interesting protection powers and cool blasts and the like that feel very much like the classic Telekinetic. I've seen Force and Might mixed before for a Tank type and to great effect. The character was excellent at getting people away from weakened comrades and getting bad guys attention. However, I don't really have any good build advice for the build. (Ask me about an Ego Blades build though and I got you covered.)

Two very handy links:
Framework Summaries: A Guide to Power Synergies (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=110987) - The author gives insight into what a given Framework was intended to do and what powers form out of the Framework can enhance things. A lot of really solid advice but no real focus on keeping to as character theme. Still, a solid read and great resource for putting together custom builds.

Champions Online Wiki (http://www.champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) - More detailed breakdowns of powers as well as background details. This is a general go to guide if you're wondering how something works.

[Kraven Kor]

So, that framework guide was great, but he only mentions the one cross-framework synergy, for munitions and martial arts.

What I really, really want to go with is the brick / power armor route, if it is at all possible / feasible.

[Certified]

The poster Will Black, doesn't do builds like a lot of other people on the CO boards. However, he offers up some great advice.

Based on the guide and what I could find in the CO - Wiki I put this together. Hope it helps:

Power Armor/Might Hybrid
Super Stats: STR/CON, but build REC and END with gear
Preferred Passive: Defiance
Preferred Block: Retaliation or Energy Shield (w/ Laser Knight Adv
Key Powers: Aggressor (Toggle), Roomsweeper (Charge), Haymaker (Charge), Mighty Leap (Click), Micro Munitions (Toggle)
Secondary Powers: Chest Beam (Charge), Enrage (Click), Unbreakable (Click)
Out of Framework Powers: Bionic Shielding (Click), Support Drones or Munitions Bots (Pets), Resurgence (Click),