The Unofficial 2012 Wish List

[BobGreenwade]

For the past couple of years I've started a thread that served as a sort of unofficial "What Do You Want To See?" query for the next schedule to be announced. I have no official standing (and for that matter rather little unofficial standing) with DOJ, but last year's thread did seem to have possibly had a little influence over next year's release schedule.

So here we go. What do we, the users of these boards -- the people who love the Hero System, and care enough about DOJ to want to ensure its ongoing survival in these troubled economic times -- want to see in for the year 2012?

I'll start with my thoughts.

With Champions last year, Fantasy Hero this year, and Star Hero next year, we'll have three of the five big genres covered for 6th Edition. The other two are Pulp Hero and Dark Champions, and Steve's already said that there's too little change from the material in 5th Edition Pulp Hero to want to work up a new book, so it'll probably be Dark Champions. And I can certainly live with that.

On the other hand, the Dark Champions title is part of the property sold to Cryptic. Can the genre book be retooled into Action Hero or Modern Hero or some such? I don't know.

If not, then it'll probably have to be a non-genre book, or at most a sub-genre book, that's the big GenCon release. And I have no idea what that should be, from either a sales standpoint or an "I would buy this" standpoint.

Moving right along, I think it would be awesome if a 6th Edition version of Post Apocalyptic Hero were to be prepared for December 2012. Why not let its release coincide with the predicted end of the world? :D

Other ideas:

With Star Hero out next year, perhaps something early on can be The High Tech World, focusing on the advanced technology in the Champions Universe. I know I've been itching to see what things are like amidst the inventors, high-tech heroes, mad scientists, and even super-powered Luddites. (The reason Star Hero is pertinent is that some of the material in HTW can draw on SH information.)

Also, with Ultimate books updated into core rules supplements, perhaps something like that can be done with The Ultimate Energy Projector or The Ultimate Speedster. I'm having a little trouble getting used to the changes in movement powers for 6th Edition (even though it's mainly a move from scale inches to meters, and the elimination of a hex as a measuring guide), so Hero System Movement would be a boon to me personally.

Finally for my own wishes, I'd love to see a 6th Edition update for Terran Empire, with some of the material included from the other supplements and Digital Hero. I do realize that the original book wasn't a big seller, so I understand that this is highly unlikely, but it's what I'd wish for.

[Lord Liaden]

Assuming everything on the current 2010 and 2011 schedules goes through (and if Golden Age Champions gets finished within that time ;) ), I'd like to see books detailing the remaining major organizations of the current official Champions Universe that haven't been dealt with for 5E or 6E: ARGENT, the IHA, and PRIMUS. IMHO these are long overdue. More entries in the "Book Of.." series on the CU's master villains would also be welcome.

Steve Long commented during a chat a few weeks ago that in the foreseeable future, the CU will run out of significant all-new material that could be the subject of more books. Bob, your suggestion of a High-Tech World sourcebook sounds like it has potential to add to that list of subjects, if enough of a "sub-culture" could be established to give the book a thematic envelope. Come to think of it, this might be the right place for a definitive discussion of some persistent issues among CU readers, like the rationales for why "supertech" hasn't impacted the wider Champions Earth to a broader extent, and the relationship between supertech and the more traditional-science-friendly technology of advanced alien species; as well as the interaction of magic with technology in the CU.

Further in that vein, I recently corresponded with Steve Long about a concept for a CU expansion book which he says he's thought about, but isn't sure there would be enough interest in among fans. This thread was created for unofficial bandying of ideas (and Bob started it, so I can't be blamed :p ), so I guess this is as good a time and place as any to float mine. What I have in mind is a book detailing the various fictional nations and political entities of Champions Earth, such as Awad, Chiquador, Costa Azul, Guamanga, Larisagrad, Lugendu, Lurranga, and Taqiristan, plus whatever others may be mentioned in the near future. With the suggested working title, Champions Universe: Rogue States, the book would examine these nations from the viewpoint of gaming potential, both as locations for PCs to visit for various reasons, and for their geopolitical impact on the wider world.

While none of these nations likely merit a separate book, collectively they could add up to a substantial tome. Some of these states may be dealt with separately in other books -- I wouldn't be surprised if Awad, for example, was included in an ARGENT sourcebook -- but there should still be a lot left to work with. If necessary or appropriate, Rogue States could even expand a few of the CU's "hidden lands" which have so far only been discussed briefly, such as the Kingdom of the Apes, Thaar, or the Valley of Night.

[mallet]

This will probably never happen but I would love, love, love to see Steve go back to the Turakian Age and come out with a new and revised 6th edition setting/campaign/guide to that setting. Give specific rules, point totals, spells, creatures, etc... from all of the other 6th edition books (and updated stuff from the 5th edition books) and make a grand setting for Fantasy Hero. And then support it with other supplements, etc...

Having tons of rules and options with the hero system is great, but I (and a lot of gamers I know, both players and GMs) don't have the time to build worlds anymore or to work out balance issues and everything else that goes into creating a game. I wish I did, but I don't. A full setting (with the rules tailored to fit the world) and with spells and everything else all laid out and balanced would be fantastic.

That is why I have such a hard time getting players to play Hero. People enjoy the system, but don't have the time to put into all of the designing and building of characters and worlds.

I have a group of friends who roleplay. there are 10 of us all in who can play usually on friday nights. Who can play at different times and games and such changes fairly often over the course of a year. We might do a bi-weekly Shadowrun game that gathers 6 of us together to play for 6 months. Or a Delta Green game that goes weekly for 3 months, etc... My last Fantasy Hero Campaign had 3 players turn out for it every second week. It faded after a about 5 months.

One of us just started up a Dark Sun D&D game. Everyone wants to play. Weekly.

I asked why such a big turn out for Dark Sun, but not Fantasy Hero. Only a couple of them are huge D&D fans, all of us have played lots of systems and games over the years. So why Dark Sun and not FH Turakian Age? Almost everyone of them said it was because of the setting and the books. They could look through the Dark Sun book and get a great feel for the setting. get great ideas for characters and what they wanted their guys to be. There was spell lists, and power lists, and equipment lists. Everything was right there and specific to the game and setting. That's why they got excited to play. They could make a character quickly that fit right into the system and everything they needed was there.

That is what Hero Needs. That is why 10 people will show up every Friday night (some driving an hour or more each way to get there) to play Dark Sun, but I could barely get 4 of us to show up once every two weeks for a Fantasy Hero game.

So that is what I wish for. A Fantasy Hero setting that will get players excited and give them everything they need to make balanced characters in the setting (with the help of the 6th edition main book, of course).

Look I love the toolbox approach to the Hero System but I look at it like I look at my garage.

Yes I love having a huge amount of tools. Sure I can use those tools to build a car from scratch if I really wanted. But sometimes it is nice just to buy a nice, shiny new car. and then I can use the tools to make some modifications or repairs as time goes by.

Right now Hero System just provides the tools. I want them to provide the car built from those tools and then I can modify it myself if I feel like it.

[BobGreenwade]

Further in that vein, I recently corresponded with Steve Long about a concept for a CU expansion book which he says he's thought about, but isn't sure there would be enough interest in among fans. This thread was created for unofficial bandying of ideas (and Bob started it, so I can't be blamed :p ), so I guess this is as good a time and place as any to float mine. What I have in mind is a book detailing the various fictional nations and political entities of Champions Earth, such as Awad, Chiquador, Costa Azul, Guamanga, Larisagrad, Lugendu, Lurranga, and Taqiristan, plus whatever others may be mentioned in the near future. With the suggested working title, Champions Universe: Rogue States, the book would examine these nations from the viewpoint of gaming potential, both as locations for PCs to visit for various reasons, and for their geopolitical impact on the wider world.

While none of these nations likely merit a separate book, collectively they could add up to a substantial tome. Some of these states may be dealt with separately in other books -- I wouldn't be surprised if Awad, for example, was included in an ARGENT sourcebook -- but there should still be a lot left to work with. If necessary or appropriate, Rogue States could even expand a few of the CU's "hidden lands" which have so far only been discussed briefly, such as the Kingdom of the Apes, Thaar, or the Valley of Night.I like this idea. The states you've listed each has its own character, and the book could serve not only to list and describe the fictional states in the Champions Universe but also give examples and structures to help GMs create their own. Even without playing in (or writing for) the Champions Universe, this would be very handy. For that matter, the "how to create a rogue state" information could be applied to other genres too, like Pulp and Sci-Fi.

[Lord Liaden]

This will probably never happen but I would love, love, love to see Steve go back to the Turakian Age and come out with a new and revised 6th edition setting/campaign/guide to that setting. Give specific rules, point totals, spells, creatures, etc... from all of the other 6th edition books (and updated stuff from the 5th edition books) and make a grand setting for Fantasy Hero. And then support it with other supplements, etc...

Having tons of rules and options with the hero system is great, but I (and a lot of gamers I know, both players and GMs) don't have the time to build worlds anymore or to work out balance issues and everything else that goes into creating a game. I wish I did, but I don't. A full setting (with the rules tailored to fit the world) and with spells and everything else all laid out and balanced would be fantastic.

That is why I have such a hard time getting players to play Hero. People enjoy the system, but don't have the time to put into all of the designing and building of characters and worlds.

I have a group of friends who roleplay. there are 10 of us all in who can play usually on friday nights. Who can play at different times and games and such changes fairly often over the course of a year. We might do a bi-weekly Shadowrun game that gathers 6 of us together to play for 6 months. Or a Delta Green game that goes weekly for 3 months, etc... My last Fantasy Hero Campaign had 3 players turn out for it every second week. It faded after a about 5 months.

One of us just started up a Dark Sun D&D game. Everyone wants to play. Weekly.

I asked why such a big turn out for Dark Sun, but not Fantasy Hero. Only a couple of them are huge D&D fans, all of us have played lots of systems and games over the years. So why Dark Sun and not FH Turakian Age? Almost everyone of them said it was because of the setting and the books. They could look through the Dark Sun book and get a great feel for the setting. get great ideas for characters and what they wanted their guys to be. There was spell lists, and power lists, and equipment lists. Everything was right there and specific to the game and setting. That's why they got excited to play. They could make a character quickly that fit right into the system and everything they needed was there.

That is what Hero Needs. That is why 10 people will show up every Friday night (some driving an hour or more each way to get there) to play Dark Sun, but I could barely get 4 of us to show up once every two weeks for a Fantasy Hero game.

So that is what I wish for. A Fantasy Hero setting that will get players excited and give them everything they need to make balanced characters in the setting (with the help of the 6th edition main book, of course).

Look I love the toolbox approach to the Hero System but I look at it like I look at my garage.

Yes I love having a huge amount of tools. Sure I can use those tools to build a car from scratch if I really wanted. But sometimes it is nice just to buy a nice, shiny new car. and then I can use the tools to make some modifications or repairs as time goes by.

Right now Hero System just provides the tools. I want them to provide the car built from those tools and then I can modify it myself if I feel like it.

Hmm... well, I have to say that under Fifth Edition, a lot of what you requested seemed to have eventually been covered. Besides The Turakian Age setting book, there were lots of character templates in that book and the Fantasy HERO genre book; lots of equipment statted in the core rules, the genre book, and/or the HERO System Equipment Guide; the two Fantasy HERO Grimoire(s) of pregenerated spells, regularly used to flesh out published TA characters; monsters and races in the HERO System Bestiary, Monsters Minions & Marauders, and Book Of Dragons, again often referred to in TA; many Turakian NPCs in Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers; Magic Items for lists of you-know-what. About the only thing missing was a detailed city-setting -- Aarn, City Of Adventure fell off the publication schedule. :(

Certainly we don't yet have all this updated to Sixth Edition, but a lot of it has already been compiled into books available now or in the immediate future, like the 6E Bestiary, Grimoire, and HERO System Equipment.

[Lord Liaden]

I like this idea. The states you've listed each has its own character, and the book could serve not only to list and describe the fictional states in the Champions Universe but also give examples and structures to help GMs create their own. Even without playing in (or writing for) the Champions Universe, this would be very handy. For that matter, the "how to create a rogue state" information could be applied to other genres too, like Pulp and Sci-Fi.

To me, the nice thing about small fictional countries like these is that they're typically fairly easy to drop into any other comic-book setting placed more or less in the real modern world.

[Darren Watts]

A Fantasy Hero setting that will get players excited and give them everything they need to make balanced characters in the setting (with the help of the 6th edition main book, of course).



You (Mallet and others) say this, but you (collectively) don't buy them. Alas, there is an apparent mismatch between your tastes and those of Fandom Assembled. You don't buy them from us (we've published four Fantasy settings now, all sitting comfortably near the bottom of the all-time sales list) and you don't buy them from third-party publishers. Sorry, but them's the cold unpleasant facts. dw

[BobGreenwade]

You (Mallet and others) say this, but you (collectively) don't buy them. Alas, there is an apparent mismatch between your tastes and those of Fandom Assembled. You don't buy them from us (we've published four Fantasy settings now, all sitting comfortably near the bottom of the all-time sales list) and you don't buy them from third-party publishers. Sorry, but them's the cold unpleasant facts. dwSad but true. That's why I won't get too excited about a Terran Empire setting update unless it's actually announced. A lot of the internal weaknesses of the original book were patched up (and very nicely) by subsequent books, but if the sales aren't they they just aren't there. I'm disappointed, but there's not much to do about it.

[megaplayboy]

Sad but true. That's why I won't get too excited about a Terran Empire setting update unless it's actually announced. A lot of the internal weaknesses of the original book were patched up (and very nicely) by subsequent books, but if the sales aren't they they just aren't there. I'm disappointed, but there's not much to do about it.

Honestly, I'd prefer a Galactic Federation...release the most advanced setting and it's not that difficult to dial stuff back to lower tech levels. Plus you could probably combine it with Galactic Champions in some way.
I dunno what to do about the sales thing. It's kind of a catch-22. Champions sells because there's been a long-term investment in developing that market, going back decades. Every other genre, not so much. To be fair, 5th edition had more of an investment than any previous edition, but I think Hero Games would have to be in a position to afford to lose money for a long time before the support grew to a more profitable leve.

[IndianaJoe3]

So here we go. What do we, the users of these boards -- the people who love the Hero System, and care enough about DOJ to want to ensure its ongoing survival in these troubled economic times -- want to see in for the year 2012?

Book of the Snake - the 6e VIPER sourcebook.There were versions for 4e and 5e, so I presume it sold reasonably well.


The other two are Pulp Hero and Dark Champions, and Steve's already said that there's too little change from the material in 5th Edition Pulp Hero to want to work up a new book, so it'll probably be Dark Champions. And I can certainly live with that.Steve's made some comments in the Dark Champions thread about it being likely to be the 2012 GenCon release. Works for me.


I'd like to see books detailing the remaining major organizations of the current official Champions Universe that haven't been dealt with for 5E or 6E: ARGENT, the IHA, and PRIMUS.

Kind of like Classic Organizations, only without C.L.O.W.N.?

[megaplayboy]

How about a Hero System Advanced Technology Guide? Kind of a Whitman's sampler of sci-fi tech. It'd be thematically organized, and also about as long as the Hero System Bestiary.

[mallet]

we've published four Fantasy settings now, all sitting comfortably near the bottom of the all-time sales list

That's such a shame! I really enjoyed the Turakian Age setting. I thought there was tons of great stuff in it and that it was a great world for role-playing in.

[Steve Long]

To echo/expand on what Darren said:

1. We'd love to be able to provide more fully fleshed-out settings, complete with everything Mallet and others describe. But you (collectively, not any individual one of you) simply won't buy them. The Turakian Age, for example, is as big and full of potential as any setting ever published for D&D, but it sold poorly compared to our more rules-oriented books. The fact of the matter is that the HERO System offers a certain something to a certain type of gamer, and those gamers are our main customers -- the people who speak in the way we hear most clearly, with their money. Those people tend to be create-it-yourselfers who like to make up their own settings and what have you rather than buy pre-built ones. They want the tools to build things, not the finished products.

As a result you're going to see few, if any, setting-related books for any line other than Champions under 6E. The same effort can go into producing a rules-related or Champions-related product that will sell better. Want to convince us to do otherwise? Then if and when we do dip our toes back into Heroic setting waters, speak as loudly as you can in the way we hear most clearly: with your money. Buy several copies, convince your friends to buy several copies, buy more copies to give to people as Christmas presents. ;) Believe me, there is nothing I would like better than to be able to really develop a setting like the Turakian Age in-depth... but there has to be enough money in it to justify the work.

2. We have provided all the tools you need to slap together a character quickly and easily, or will within the next couple of months. We've got all kinds of easy-to-use Templates (with more coming for each genre as we do genre books). We've got over 300 pages of Martial Arts styles and special abilities. We'll soon have 350 pages of equipment, gadgets, and gear for any genre or style of play. We've got nearly 400 pages of pre-built superpowers. Next up we're going to have I'd guess 300-400 pages of spells, all designed for easy use and customizability. All of these books are designed to make it easy for both advanced and new players to get into the game, and in my experience they do the job very well. If they're not working for you, I'm sorry to hear it, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's difficult to create a Hero character or play a Hero game. It might be more difficult than the lockstep nature of systems like D&D, but that's the price you have to pay for the flexibility of the HERO System.

[Hugh Neilson]

All of these books are designed to make it easy for both advanced and new players to get into the game, and in my experience they do the job very well. If they're not working for you, I'm sorry to hear it, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's difficult to create a Hero character or play a Hero game. It might be more difficult than the lockstep nature of systems like D&D, but that's the price you have to pay for the flexibility of the HERO System.

The price of flexibility is complexity. That's true in far more than RPG's. In my experience, long-term Hero gamers generally take the prefabs as inspiration and build their own tinkered versions, because they value the ability to customize their characters' abilities.

[megaplayboy]

That being the case, I think then that I'd prefer 1) long, high detail genre books, 2) genre-specific or genre-relevant sourcebooks(like the Hero System Grimoire), 3) "generic" sourcebooks which can be readily used for a given genre/setting(Hero System Martial Arts, Hero System Equipment Guide, Hero System Bestiary)

In that light, I'd suggest a Star Hero "redo" as follows: Genre Book, Hero System Tech(or HSEG: High Tech edition), Hero System Starships(or Hero System Vehicles: High Tech edition), and then maybe a Hero System Aliens book. 4 books, no setting books, with the sourcebooks being potentially useful for non-SH games(specifically, Champions and maybe Cyber Hero).
You could do likewise with Fantasy Hero: Genre Book, Hero System Grimoire, Hero System Fantasy Equipment Guide(including some magic item writeups), Hero System Bestiary(and perhaps a Fantasy Bestiary supplement, though the HSB is pretty thorough), and maybe a HS Fantasy races book. Fantasy Vehicles and Bases is another possibility.
If grognards won't buy the setting books, perhaps they'll buy writeup books instead. :)

[BobGreenwade]

While a book of aliens for Star Hero would be fantastic, I rather suspect that Champions Beyond will cover much of that ground. My goal for a book of aliens (whatever else is in there) would be a set of Package Deals/Templates for the many alien species in the various 5th Ed Star Hero settings, and if CB includes that or such a thing is released as an HPA then I'd be less motivated. That's why I didn't include it on my own list.

[Steve Long]

2) genre-specific or genre-relevant sourcebooks(like the Hero System Grimoire), 3) "generic" sourcebooks which can be readily used for a given genre/setting(Hero System Martial Arts, Hero System Equipment Guide, Hero System Bestiary)

I would actually classify the HSG as a "generic" sourcebook akin to the HSEG or HSB, though I absolutely agree it's most likely to be used in a Fantasy game. But it does include, for example, a section on Superheroic Thaumaturgy from the Champions Universe. That's why I changed the title to "HERO System Grimoire" from "The Fantasy Hero Grimoire" -- to try to get across its usefulness in other genres. :)



In that light, I'd suggest a Star Hero "redo" as follows: Genre Book, Hero System Tech(or HSEG: High Tech edition), Hero System Starships(or Hero System Vehicles: High Tech edition)

To my way of thinking, if it were possible to do a "High Tech Edition" of either HSEG or HSV, then those books have failed in their purpose. Just like I want the HSB to pretty much stand on its own without the need for genre-specific monster books, the HSEG and HSV shouldn't need supplementation as broad resource books.

(Now, I will concede that a specific setting might need greater development of monsters, tech, vehicles, or what have you, because it's so unusual in some way. And maybe I somehow overlooked such a vast category of some kind of monster that there'd be reason for another Bestiary. But generally speaking I expect any Core Library book to cover its subject with such thoroughness that no additional supplements on that subject are necessary. That's the goal, anyways. :hex:)

[Steve Long]

I think then that I'd prefer 1) long, high detail genre books

Well, we certainly like doing genre books -- I think they're one of the things we do better than any other RPG company (and for the most part, differently from any other RPG company), and I thoroughly enjoy researching and writing them. They're unquestionably my fav'rite type of book to write. ;) Besides the ones in existence that we have plans to re-do for 6E at some point (such as next summer's fantabulous Star Hero), there are definitely some others that can be done, though most of them are actually subgenre books if you want to get technical about it (such as Cyber Hero and Time Travel Hero, which have both been announced as late 2011 releases).

However, that being said, there's a practical limit on what (sub)genre books we can do for logistical reasons. There are quite a few -- Western and Victorian for sure, and probably Swashbuckling/Pirates -- that simply require too much work to do correctly in relation to the sales they'd generate. I would love to write Western Hero for example, but it would take months of work... and probably sell far less well than a Champions supplement I could write in three or four weeks and not incur thousands of dollars' worth of personal expenses researching. And even some of the lesser genres we could reasonably tackle, such as Weird Conspiracy Hero, have never really "polled high enough" among Hero fans to justify the work (though we could certainly be convinced otherwise). The trick is to find subgenres we can cover well with a reasonable amount of effort (such as Post-Apocalyptic, Urban Fantasy, and I think Cyberpunk and Time Travel) that still appeal to the consumer.

[BobGreenwade]

Speaking of subgenre books, I would love to see Mech Hero as a subgenre of Star Hero, sort of updating Robot Warriors.

I know it's another "cool idea, but not likely" request, but this is a wish list after all.

In fact, the only subgenre I'd be more interested in seeing is a murder mystery/police procedural supplement for Dark Champions, but even if that's not too obscure to make a saleable book I'd wait an extra year before doing it.

Oh, and based on what's been described as possibly going into it, I'd definitely go for a Weird Conspiracy Hero. I normally wouldn't, but I understand that your vision for it, Steve, would include coverage of such things as Haven, Warehouse 13, and Sanctuary, and that's what I'm after.

[Boll Weevil]

I would love to see an update to Millennium City in the way of smaller "neighborhood" or even "city block" packs. I would buy these as PDFs or hardcopy. Perhaps included is a pack of Millennium City Denizens.

[Steve]

I have to confess, I like the idea of Champions Universe: Rogue States. Each country section could also have guidelines on how to convert each of them into Dark Champions settings as well.

I'd also like to put in a request for the sub-genre book Super Agents for 6th. I know I'd buy it. :)

[Lord Liaden]

I know the company's still working on getting Horror HERO out the door eventually. It's the last major game genre that has yet to be covered in the DOJ era; but Steve has said it's not one he feels familiar enough with to tackle himself. IIRC Darren and Jason are working on it as time permits, but it's another of those "we'll put it on the schedule whenever it's done" projects, like Golden Age Champions.

Speaking of Champions, I do hope to eventually see an updated Kingdom Of Champions sourcebook covering the UK in the CU. I know Steve and Darren want to publish this, and if Canada can get its own book the United Kingdom certainly deserves the treatment. ;) Again, though, I imagine this book would require an author with particular expertise in the subject.

[Steve Long]

I'd definitely go for a Weird Conspiracy Hero. I normally wouldn't, but I understand that your vision for it, Steve, would include coverage of such things as Haven, Warehouse 13, and Sanctuary, and that's what I'm after.

Given that I don't know what any of those things are*, if they got any coverage in WCH it would simply be because of intersecting subject matter. I see WCH as covering a grab-bag of roughly related subjects such as conspiracies and conspiracy theory, cryptozoology, UFOs/aliens/etc., urban legendry, weird paranormal/supernatural stuff, and so on. It's at once somewhat defined and somewhat nebulous. ;)


*: N.B.: I am not asking to have them explained.**

**: In case that statement is unclear: please do not waste any time or bandwidth explaining them to me.

[Steve Long]

Speaking of Champions, I do hope to eventually see an updated Kingdom Of Champions sourcebook covering the UK in the CU. I know Steve and Darren want to publish this, and if Canada can get its own book the United Kingdom certainly deserves the treatment. Again, though, I imagine this book would require an author with particular expertise in the subject.

I don't disagree that the UK deserves the treatment, but we need the British equivalent of Scott Bennie to write it, and I don't believe such a person exists. I'm reluctant to work with outside freelancers in general for various reasons, and even more reluctant when it comes to such an extensive real-world subject. Finding a person I'd be comfortable with writing it would be difficult at best.

[Steve Long]

I know the company's still working on getting Horror HERO out the door eventually. It's the last major game genre that has yet to be covered in the DOJ era; but Steve has said it's not one he feels familiar enough with to tackle himself. IIRC Darren and Jason are working on it as time permits, but it's another of those "we'll put it on the schedule whenever it's done" projects, like Golden Age Champions.

Given that the work related to managing IPR falls entirely on Darren's and Jason's shoulders, their time to write HH or anything else that's not already well along has essentially dropped to zero. We still want to do HH and are exploring some options that may lead to that, but the original plan of having them write it is now effectively dead. Projects already in the works, like GAC, can definitely continue, but major new projects are, generally speaking, out.

[Lord Liaden]

I don't disagree that the UK deserves the treatment, but we need the British equivalent of Scott Bennie to write it, and I don't believe such a person exists. I'm reluctant to work with outside freelancers in general for various reasons, and even more reluctant when it comes to such an extensive real-world subject. Finding a person I'd be comfortable with writing it would be difficult at best.

Hmm... I kind of gleaned from past remarks that treating the United Kingdom separately was one reason why none of the official UK CU characters were written up in Champions Worldwide. If a new KOC appears unlikely, perhaps they might be included whenever the world's superhuman scene is updated.

(I'm sure you appreciate my restraint in not suggesting potential authors.) ;)

[Lord Liaden]

I'd also like to put in a request for the sub-genre book Super Agents for 6th. I know I'd buy it. :)

I still have my copy of SA and am still very fond of it. A contemporary sub-genre book on the subject would have to be substantially different, though, since Hero Games has already expanded its coverage of the major official Champions organizations to full book length. Moreover, the advice in those books already deals to a significant extent with running super agent campaigns.

[BobGreenwade]

Given that I don't know what any of those things are*, if they got any coverage in WCH it would simply be because of intersecting subject matter. I see WCH as covering a grab-bag of roughly related subjects such as conspiracies and conspiracy theory, cryptozoology, UFOs/aliens/etc., urban legendry, weird paranormal/supernatural stuff, and so on. It's at once somewhat defined and somewhat nebulous. ;)


*: N.B.: I am not asking to have them explained.**

**: In case that statement is unclear: please do not waste any time or bandwidth explaining them to me.For the sake of anyone else not knowing: They're TV series, currently running (or between seasons) on SyFy, covering topics related to what Steve just described. I'd recommend them for any WCH GM -- or for you, Steve, should you get around to putting the book on the schedule.

Anticipating your response, I place myself on the right side: :slap:

[Hugh Neilson]

On the one hand, the fact there are a lot of shows currently enjoying popularity in this niche seems to indicate the market for a product to simulate the genre could be extra-hot right now. On the other hand, the fact that Steve is not tapped into these shows indicates that there would be a lot of research involved in creating a product which would best tap into that market, meaning the sales would have to be pretty high to justify the time required. The alternative would be a different author, but that carries a lot of issues as well. A similar problem to the Horror Hero issue, with a subgenre rather than a full genre.

[BobGreenwade]

Good points there, Hugh. I'd be pumped for WCH, based on the current description, but the issues you raise mean I won't hold my breath for it.

[Steve Long]

On the one hand, the fact there are a lot of shows currently enjoying popularity in this niche seems to indicate the market for a product to simulate the genre could be extra-hot right now. On the other hand, the fact that Steve is not tapped into these shows indicates that there would be a lot of research involved in creating a product which would best tap into that market, meaning the sales would have to be pretty high to justify the time required. The alternative would be a different author, but that carries a lot of issues as well. A similar problem to the Horror Hero issue, with a subgenre rather than a full genre.

Researching a Weird Conspiracy Hero book has nothing to do with watching a bunch of shows. It has everything to do with delving into UFOlogy, cryptozoology, and a bunch of other fun subjects, learning about 'em in detail, and finding ways to present that information in an interesting way to the readership. It's still a lot of effort, probably more than sales would merit. If I were to watch any TV as part of the project I'd go back through The X-Files, which I at least know to be good for a few seasons.

[IndianaJoe3]

WCH sounds a lot like the old GURPS Illuminati supplement. I don't know if SJC made money on it or not.

[lapsedgamer]

Researching a Weird Conspiracy Hero book has nothing to do with watching a bunch of shows. It has everything to do with delving into UFOlogy, cryptozoology, and a bunch of other fun subjects, learning about 'em in detail, and finding ways to present that information in an interesting way to the readership. It's still a lot of effort, probably more than sales would merit. If I were to watch any TV as part of the project I'd go back through The X-Files, which I at least know to be good for a few seasons.

I have to go with Mr. Long here. The work he is talking about would be essential, and for the most part not worth his time. I don't see Hero making a profit on a book like this. Delta Green by Arc Dream covered this, and I doubt anyone could top that book.Sure it's D20 or COC, but you could easily make it work. For that matter, just pick up an old copy of Dark Matter for Alternity. Not as good as DG, but it was competently put together. It had a lot of support back in the day, so there's still stuff floating around for cheap on E-Bay.

They both have the information and could be converted over. Dark Champions has the rest of what you need. Done.

Some of those shows are OK, but none of them are must see. X-Files covered this ground. All of the rest are just trying to follow up on that, and generally the new ones are just pale imitations.

EDIT: Sorry, Delta Green is Pagan Publishing, not Arc Dream. Arc Dream has that Kerberos Club book I've been waiting for the Hero version of. Since I'm on that topic, any update on that, Hero folks?

[Steve Long]

Delta Green by [Pagan Publishing] covered this, and I doubt anyone could top that book.

Here I must disagree. If the subject were "create an adaptation of the Cthulhu Mythos for modern-day action-suspense roleplaying," then I would absolutely agree that I cannot top Delta Green. There are few RPG products I don't think I can improve on, but DG is definitely one of them. However, a Weird Conspiracy Hero book would cover the entirety of the "weird conspiracy" subgenre and discuss how to create games and characters for it -- a much broader "toolkit" approach than DG, one appropriate to a HERO System book that would make the book "better" than DG if you want a broader approach to the subject. ;)

[Darren Watts]

EDIT: Sorry, Delta Green is Pagan Publishing, not Arc Dream. Arc Dream has that Kerberos Club book I've been waiting for the Hero version of. Since I'm on that topic, any update on that, Hero folks?

Finishing it got sidetracked by the IPR acquisition, but it's still going. I understand Jason will be making a final push to get it done this month. dw

[Silverbullet]

Here I must disagree. If the subject were "create an adaptation of the Cthulhu Mythos for modern-day action-suspense roleplaying," then I would absolutely agree that I cannot top Delta Green. There are few RPG products I don't think I can improve on, but DG is definitely one of them. However, a Weird Conspiracy Hero book would cover the entirety of the "weird conspiracy" subgenre and discuss how to create games and characters for it -- a much broader "toolkit" approach than DG, one appropriate to a HERO System book that would make the book "better" than DG if you want a broader approach to the subject. ;)

Yeah, Delta Green is a tough one to top... but since it was brought up, I'm still waiting on a "Horror Hero!" A WCH book would be cool to get, though. Like Turakian age, I'd love to see an updated Tuala Morn. and definitely a new Dark Champions/Modern Hero!!!

[BobGreenwade]

It looks to me like the consensus on WCH is, "We'd all love to see it, but we understand your reluctance to undertake it."

I think the general consensus on HH is about the same.

[lapsedgamer]

Here I must disagree. If the subject were "create an adaptation of the Cthulhu Mythos for modern-day action-suspense roleplaying," then I would absolutely agree that I cannot top Delta Green. There are few RPG products I don't think I can improve on, but DG is definitely one of them. However, a Weird Conspiracy Hero book would cover the entirety of the "weird conspiracy" subgenre and discuss how to create games and characters for it -- a much broader "toolkit" approach than DG, one appropriate to a HERO System book that would make the book "better" than DG if you want a broader approach to the subject. ;)

Hey, I always try to give credit where it is due, and I have enjoyed almost everything that you have done that I've seen over the years.

I guess my point is that since the material is not forthcoming from your company, the intrepid have to be willing to adapt, improvise, and cannibalize. To my mind you guys still get to sell basic rules sets, Dark Champions stuff, and probably Urban Fantasy stuff, for most Dark Conspiracy games. Pagan Publishing gets to sell DG. It's a win/win.

Since I mentioned Dark Conspiracy, I had friends who swore by the Dark Conspiracy books that GDW put out in the 90s. I never had them, but they might be another source that could be tracked down on E-bay, or otherwise picked up used.

[Steve Long]

I don't own the Dark Conspiracy books myself, but like you I've had several gamer friends who really liked 'em. Not sure how well they'd adapt to Hero, but I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult. ;)

[torchwolf]

I hope this isn't the wrong place to say that all of the DC books are available in pdf through GDW at rpgnow/drivethrurpg. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Something that just occurred to me about an hour ago, when I saw someone make a mention of The Book of Dragons: many of the books HG puts out aren't just good for gaming. They're often also good resources for writers in general.

This is a part of what interested me in Hero System Martial Arts -- it's not just good for Hero Gaming, but also for anyone wanting to write a martial arts story. The Book of Dragons can turn into a resource for writing stories with dragons. The Hero System Equipment Guide and The Hero System Bestiary can serve a similar purpose. And the genre books can aid anyone writing the respective genres.

Thus, I would like to add to my own wish list: The Book of the Undead. That and a mecha book would totally make my year. :D

[DreadDomain]

1. [.....] The Turakian Age, for example, is as big and full of potential as any setting ever published for D&D, but it sold poorly compared to our more rules-oriented books. [.....]

2. We have provided all the tools you need to slap together a character quickly and easily, or will within the next couple of months. We've got all kinds of easy-to-use Templates (with more coming for each genre as we do genre books). We've got over 300 pages of Martial Arts styles and special abilities. We'll soon have 350 pages of equipment, gadgets, and gear for any genre or style of play. We've got nearly 400 pages of pre-built superpowers. Next up we're going to have I'd guess 300-400 pages of spells, all designed for easy use and customizability. All of these books are designed to make it easy for both advanced and new players to get into the game, and in my experience they do the job very well. If they're not working for you, I'm sorry to hear it, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's difficult to create a Hero character or play a Hero game. It might be more difficult than the lockstep nature of systems like D&D, but that's the price you have to pay for the flexibility of the HERO System.

What I'd like to see, is closely related to the points made above. As Fantasy HERO settings goes, I believe the Turakian Age as the most potential from a market point of view. The style and scope of the world is more mainstream than Tuala Morn and Atlantean Age and the setting is a lot more detailed and complete than Valdorian Age. I also agree with Steve that DOJ has added a lot of invaluable prebuild material to inspire players and help people create characters in a timely fashion. On the other hand, I think more could be done to cover the Fantasy genre from a Heroic Abilities/Talents point of view.

What I'd like to see is a sort of "Player's Guide to the Turakian Age" (or to make it more generic it could be called "Fantasy Hero Player's Guide " but could use the TA as default setting). This book would not focus so much on setting description (TA does that beautifully) but would be choke full of rules/constructions for TA character creation. Think of it as a cross between D&D Player's Guide and Champions Powers. I'd see this book organized roughly like this :

Peoples of Ambrethel
It would put pages 28 to 48 of TA (races) in HS6 terms as well as cultural and environmental templates (the cultures of Vashkor, Thun and Mendharian are very different after all).

Professions Templates
Would cover the same ground as pages 76 to 107 of FH (adapted to TA with pages 176 to 197 of TA)

Heroic Abilities
The real meat would be in pre-built abilities. I would like to see Racial, Cultural and Professional abilities unique to many races, cultures and professions (or even religions). Think of it as Champions Powers or the Hero System Grimoire but organized by race, culture and/or profession instead of Special-Effect or College (Orc abilities, Paladin abilities, Khikovian abilities). These would be most likely non-magical in nature (not unlike the ones in Pulp Hero or the Talents in FH or even the class abilities or feats in D&D) and would offer the players coherent paths (and yet mostly unrestrictive) of development for their characters. I would

Grimoire and Magic Items
I would expect this section to me small since most of the spells would be detailed in HSG. It would mostly cover new specific spells or artifacts and notes about using HSG in TA.

Weapons and gear
Again, specific weapons/equipment for TA and notes about using the HSEG in TA.

I don't know if such a book would fall under "nah, too setting related to be worth the effort, meh" or "yea, juicy rules and construction goodness, yummy" category but I'd buy such a book in a flash. In my opinion, the heroic abilities in a Fantasy setting would be worth the price of the book by itself.

[st barbara]

Remember all those years ago when the "Ultimate" series started and we were promised"The Utimate Power Armour" ? I'd like to see that !

[GestaltBennie]

Book of the Undead is probably the best idea I've heard here in a long time.

CCH is a book that's pretty antithetical to my tastes, being utterly sick of the genre, though I might pick it up if Ken Hite were a major contributor, as Ken knows his stuff and could almost certainly find ways to breathe new life into things that are pretty tired to me.

The one book I'd like to see (but which Steve has already shot down) is a compilation of Champions Universe heroes, along with 40 or so generic 450 point characters that the GM can pull out at a moment's notice for players who drop into a game and don't have time for chargen. But NPC hero books generally don't sell, so Steve's reticence is understandable.

[lapsedgamer]

Book of the Undead is probably the best idea I've heard here in a long time.

CCH is a book that's pretty antithetical to my tastes, being utterly sick of the genre, though I might pick it up if Ken Hite were a major contributor, as Ken knows his stuff and could almost certainly find ways to breathe new life into things that are pretty tired to me.

The one book I'd like to see (but which Steve has already shot down) is a compilation of Champions Universe heroes, along with 40 or so generic 450 point characters that the GM can pull out at a moment's notice for players who drop into a game and don't have time for chargen. But NPC hero books generally don't sell, so Steve's reticence is understandable.

Perhaps they could continue with the tradition of covering all NPCs in a geographical area, thus giving some villains and heroes, along with some background material and plot seeds.

[Hugh Neilson]

The one book I'd like to see (but which Steve has already shot down) is a compilation of Champions Universe heroes, along with 40 or so generic 450 point characters that the GM can pull out at a moment's notice for players who drop into a game and don't have time for chargen. But NPC hero books generally don't sell, so Steve's reticence is understandable.

Why not just take 40 or so villains of various stripes, change their names, complications and perhaps SFX and use those for players who drop in and don't have time for chargen? Most of the difference between "hero" and "villain" lies in personality, not powers.

[Lord Liaden]

Might make a nice Hero Plus PDF, though. Maybe start off with 6E updates to the Sentinels, Justice Squadron, and Unity.

[bobrunnicles]

Book Of The Undead would ROCK.

[Sketchpad]

There are some great ideas on this thread. It's really too bad that settings don't sell well, but I can understand why Hero turned away from making new ones (at least for now). For my 2012 Wish List, let me reiterate a few and add a few others ...
• A Mecha Catalog/sub-genre book would be pretty cool. Maybe cover the genre from both an anime and Battletech/Armored Core angle? I'd especially dig it as a catalog ...
• I've always wanted to see the equivalent of The Ultimate Gadget ... those devices that seem to bend the general ideas of engineering and science such as Weird Science, Super-Gadgets and the like.
• A new Super-Agents would be pretty cool ... maybe consolidate the info from UNTIL and PRIMUS in it?
• I'd love to see Action Hero made, with possibly a Danger International sub-genre book for it.
• The Hero System Talents & Perks a collected book of old and new talents and perks. Maybe have a general section and then by genre?
• Count me as another supporter of Weird Conspiracy Hero in the same vein as UFH and PAH.
• While probably not a topic big enough for a book, I'd love to see a PDF for Mystery Hero, with rules on running mysteries and having templates for the usual suspects in mystery stories ;)
• In the same respect, I'd love to see a new Horror Hero book ... in fact, if Hero needs any help with it, I'd be glad to help out :)
• In non-RPG ideas, how about Heroic Counter packs? Quick little PDFs that could be used to make combat easier ...

[lapsedgamer]

I don't know if there are going to be Golden Age and Sliver Age Books for 6th Ed, but I really would like to see the historical material for the CU consolidated somewhere. I saw that there was a lot of stuff in Digital Hero, but it bugs me to have to buy the back issues for a couple of pages of material in each Ezine. Would it be possible to consolidate those old articles into a PDF and perhaps update them for 6th Ed? I am mainly talking about the old Sentinels and Fabulous Five write ups. They were great.

[Ranxerox]

And even some of the lesser genres we could reasonably tackle, such as Weird Conspiracy Hero, have never really "polled high enough" among Hero fans to justify the work (though we could certainly be convinced otherwise). The trick is to find subgenres we can cover well with a reasonable amount of effort (such as Post-Apocalyptic, Urban Fantasy, and I think Cyberpunk and Time Travel) that still appeal to the consumer.

I would pay up to $25 for a copy of Weird Conspiracy Hero, though admittedly I would only buy one.

[GestaltBennie]

Why not just take 40 or so villains of various stripes, change their names, complications and perhaps SFX and use those for players who drop in and don't have time for chargen? Most of the difference between "hero" and "villain" lies in personality, not powers.

Because that takes substantially longer for a player who's unexpectedly arrived at the game than handing him photocopies of five generic (but complete and well presented) character sheets, telling him "Here, pick one of these, and let's game." and hitting the ground running on the game session.

Similarly, they can be used as convention characters. I've found I liked the members of the Champions team a lot more after I had a chance to play them in con runs, particularly Seeker and Nighthawk.

Also, it helps get a newcomer into the game with as little exposure to the often intimidating complexities of chargen as possible. Let him take the Hero System for a test drive first, *then* show him what's under the hood.

[BobGreenwade]

Book Of The Undead would ROCK.The more I think about this, the more I agree. I would certainly trust Steve to put together a book of awesomeness, filled with every kind of vampire, zombie, ghoul, mummy, ghost, wraith, shadow, shade, lich, animated skeleton, and other undead being the world has ever imagined. I initially posted the idea as a thought about what would be useful, but as I've been reflecting on this (including your comment) I've become excited about the possibilities.

[bobrunnicles]

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was thinking when I posted the 'ROCK' comment :)

[lapsedgamer]

The more I think about this, the more I agree. I would certainly trust Steve to put together a book of awesomeness, filled with every kind of vampire, zombie, ghoul, mummy, ghost, wraith, shadow, shade, lich, animated skeleton, and other undead being the world has ever imagined. I initially posted the idea as a thought about what would be useful, but as I've been reflecting on this (including your comment) I've become excited about the possibilities.

I wonder if the spirit rules might come back. There were certain things that those rules handled very well.

[BobGreenwade]

I wonder if the spirit rules might come back. There were certain things that those rules handled very well.I doubt it, but it would be very cool.

[megaplayboy]

Book of the Undead is probably the best idea I've heard here in a long time.

CCH is a book that's pretty antithetical to my tastes, being utterly sick of the genre, though I might pick it up if Ken Hite were a major contributor, as Ken knows his stuff and could almost certainly find ways to breathe new life into things that are pretty tired to me.

The one book I'd like to see (but which Steve has already shot down) is a compilation of Champions Universe heroes, along with 40 or so generic 450 point characters that the GM can pull out at a moment's notice for players who drop into a game and don't have time for chargen. But NPC hero books generally don't sell, so Steve's reticence is understandable.

How about "Champions Cities"? It'd be a compilation of the three existing city sourcebooks(including hero teams and solo heroes), plus major cities like NYC, LA, etc., complete with writeups for the major heroes and NPCs therein.

[Sketchpad]

How about "Champions Cities"? It'd be a compilation of the three existing city sourcebooks(including hero teams and solo heroes), plus major cities like NYC, LA, etc., complete with writeups for the major heroes and NPCs therein.

This sounds like a cool idea .. have some rep :)

[lapsedgamer]

How about "Champions Cities"? It'd be a compilation of the three existing city sourcebooks(including hero teams and solo heroes), plus major cities like NYC, LA, etc., complete with writeups for the major heroes and NPCs therein.

I would buy that for thirty dollars. Have rep.

[GestaltBennie]

It'd be a great book. But it'd be at least 600 pages, given the size of the current city books.

We've also got the revised Millennium City coming down the pike.

[Steve Long]

It'd be a great book. But it'd be at least 600 pages, given the size of the current city books.

We've also got the revised Millennium City coming down the pike.

Yeah, a whole book of cities is a great idea conceptually, but it'd simply be way, way too big -- even by my standards ;) -- to work as a commercial product.

And yes, I do expect the new MC book to be bigger than the last, if for no other reason than Cryptic's given us a lot of material to work with (e.g., a lot of street gangs to detail) that didn't exist previously.

[Patriot]

I know I've said it before, But how about a Chicago source book?

[Darren Watts]

I don't know if there are going to be Golden Age and Sliver Age Books for 6th Ed, but I really would like to see the historical material for the CU consolidated somewhere. I saw that there was a lot of stuff in Digital Hero, but it bugs me to have to buy the back issues for a couple of pages of material in each Ezine. Would it be possible to consolidate those old articles into a PDF and perhaps update them for 6th Ed? I am mainly talking about the old Sentinels and Fabulous Five write ups. They were great.

Those are both in progress, but as the "President's Pet Projects" they ain't on the schedule. They're done when I get them done. However, I can promise much CU historical continuity silliness in both, when they do finally appear. If you're ever in New York City, drop in on a playtest- GA is Tuesdays, SA alternate Saturdays. dw

[dsatow]

just tossing my $0.02 in.

I also would have a vote for Mecha Hero/Robot Warriers (the next generation).

[lapsedgamer]

I would gladly volunteer to handle Seattle. There are some interesting things you could do with Boeing and Microsoft clones, and don't get me started on the adventure possibilities of the Seattle Jungle, the Hanford Site, and the Puget Sound.