The Champions, only not!

[Rechan]

I have the Champions in my campaign (it's ran in MC), but I don't like using certain memberes of the team.

My changes thus far has been to remove Witchcraft (I don't like Mystical characters being really blatant in my campaign; they are there, sure, but they don't like being Blatant). I also don't have ... Nighthawk is it? Mainly because I have two dark and brooding PCs and I figured it was partially redundant.

Also I changed Ironclad from an Alien to something from another dimension (because I don't like blatant aliens either) and made Kinetik a member of the champs (Basicly an ally to the champs; he attends the meetings most of the time, he helps them in most adventures, but works on his own as well).

So. I need something to fill in the gaping holes in the Champs, since my PCs keep rivalling them/wanting to deal with them. I have yet to fill the gaps, and I'd like suggestions here. Seeing as the CHamps will be helping them tonight, suggestions are greatly welcome.

Also, what changes have YOU made in the Champs, if at all?

[Hermit]

I've kept them, pretty much as per the 5th Edition books, though they will grow and change as time goes on. I know that's no help to you. Still, there are plenty of characters posted on these boards, and they should be easy to adjust to fill in your gaps.

[OddHat]

Take any villain you like. Change psych limits. Instant new Champions.

Prime candidates:
Shrinker
Any member of Grab, especially Lady Blue, Black Diamond, or Cheshire Cat.
Anklanosaur or any other power armor villain; just put a new guy in the suit.
Any member of the MC8 from digital hero.

[Chuckg]

I'm not running right now, but if I ever do, these will be my own own changes to the Champions.

Keep Defender 5.0... he's much better done than Defender 4.0, IMO.

Keep Sapphire. She's funny.

Keep Ironclad, maybe tweak the character sheet more to get more of the 'crusty old Sergeant-Major' effect and less of the gladiator effect.

Keep Witchfire's... *point writeup*. Point-wise, it's a nicely designed and thematically interesting set of powers. But the *origin story* has got to go. Ditto the personality. Ditto the name.

No offense meant, Champions staff, but every time I read Witchfire's bio, I get that 'really bad Buffy fanfiction' kinda feeling in my stomach.

Instead, I take Solitaire's origin story, mildly alter it to work in the sorcery and work out the emphasis on psionics, and Solitaire's personality, name, and psych lims, and bring back the goodness.

And I crumple Nighthawk up like a wad of used tissue paper, chuck his worthlessly cliched butt in the big round file, and bring back Seeker to be the martial artist.

[Hermit]

Hey, hate Witchcraft if you want, but at least get the poor girl's name right ;)

[Chuckg]

You see how dull she is? Even her name doesn't stand out! :D

And I don't hate her so much as I consider her backstory/personality a waste of some really nice design potential.

Nighthawk, now *him* I hate. ;)

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hermit
Hey, hate Witchcraft if you want, but at least get the poor girl's name right ;)

I'm fairly sure that mistake is made at least once in the text as well. :)

I agree that she has an origin story that just doesn't quite mesh with her personality. Raised by psychopaths to become a meek little innocent...
it's not even one of the better cliches. ;)

Ideas for threads (which have probably been done before):

Secret Origins of the Champions

The Champions as Villain Group

What Villains Would You Use As Heroes?

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Chuckg
You see how dull she is? Even her name doesn't stand out! :D

And I don't hate her so much as I consider her backstory/personality a waste of some really nice design potential.

Nighthawk, now *him* I hate. ;)

*L*

And Oddhat is right, in Sapphire's writeup (of all places), there's a sentence where they get Witchcraft's name wrong so it's a common mistake.

[Jeff]

I can tolerate Witchcraft. The trick is not comparing her with anyone or anything, including quite possibly empty spaces. I can't quite pull that off in Nighthawk's case.

If you've tossed both of them, the quickest and easiest way to fill back blank spaces is to save Solitaire and Seeker from the 4th Ed Killer's deadly clutches and install them in their place. Solitaire's mysticism can be suitably downplayed, and Seeker's never brooded a day in his life.

[Rechan]

Well, I wish I had that stuff. But sadly I started right in 5th ed, and all I got is CKC and the Champs universe stuff for 5th.

[Mark Rand]

Hi all,
I'm leaving the Champions, as they are, where they are. However, they are important in the campaign. See my Pittsburgh 5E thread for more information.
Yours,
Mark Rand

[GestaltBennie]

Whern I last ran the Champs U., my Champions were Defender, Nighthawk, Sapphire, Witchcraft, Kinetik, Ironclad, Seeker, and Doc Silverback.

Scott Bennie

[assault]

Starburst and (the original) Crusader!

Shrinker is good value in her pre-villain period. Just change her disads a little. Her future will be up to you. :)

Seeker: yeah. Swashbuckling Australian Ninjas are a bit silly, but... The name is good. It's really grown on me. I'm very tempted to use "someone who may or may not be him" as a "mysterious figure" in my campaign world. He would make a good mentor/trainer for less experienced heroes - even ones that aren't primarily martial artists.

Alan B

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Jeff
...and Seeker's never brooded a day in his life.

Well, according to The Mutant File he did brood for a little while. But his version of brooding was wearing leathers & cruising the highways of America kicking outlaw biker butt.

["V"]

I agree that she has an origin story that just doesn't quite mesh with her personality. Raised by psychopaths to become a meek little innocent...

Just use an Alan Moore classic technique and have a plot thread where she discovers her REAL origin and then have the PCs try to figure out why someone went to so much trouble to make her believe in the spurious one...

[KA.]

Originally posted by Jhamin
Well, according to The Mutant File he did brood for a little while. But his version of brooding was wearing leathers & cruising the highways of America kicking outlaw biker butt.

I can't tell you how disturbing I find that image.

I think I am beginning to understand exactly what he was "seeking".

As in, "GWM seeks same."

Shudder!

KA :)

[OddHat]

Originally posted by "V"
Just use an Alan Moore classic technique and have a plot thread where she discovers her REAL origin and then have the PCs try to figure out why someone went to so much trouble to make her believe in the spurious one...

I liked this idea, and mentioned it to my wife. She had a very interesting take on it;

"Witchcraft is repressed; she's holding all of that anger and resentment inside. She has headaches and stomach trouble. She always says she isn't angry, but sometimes she acts out and then denies it. Remember when she turned Bulldozer into a frog and kept him in a terrarium? She spent a lot of time poking him with a sharp stick."

Witchcraft the ticking time bomb. That I like. ;)

[Chuckg]

Isn't that just rehashing the 'Dark Willow' subplot from Buffy?

[Hermit]

I'm not so sure that Witchcraft's personality as written in the books ISN'T appropriate for her. While Nighthawk sees her as naive, there's nothing saying that she actually is. She's underconfident, yes, but that's in part because she's unsure of her power... not just her competence in it, but the purity of that power.

She must have done some truly horrible things for her parents. Twisted sick and maybe brutal rituals, ones that she simply couldn't stomach anymore. Yes, she lacks social skills, but really, things in the vien of sacrificial victims hardly teachs you dating habits.

I think she's killed in the past, and her code against killing is basically a "Never Again". The woman has KS: Demonology for crying outloud. Why are we assuming she's a pollyanna?

She's turned her back on her old life so much, she's letting her fear of falling back keep her from sharing the joys of the new one.

[Chuckg]

> I think she's killed in the past, and her code against killing is
> basically a "Never Again". The woman has KS: Demonology
> for crying outloud. Why are we assuming she's a pollyanna?

If I remember correctly, The Revered Elder had KS: Demonology as well. It's not necessarily an "evil" skill.

Your theory *is* plausible, it's just this particular leap of assumption I question.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> I think she's killed in the past, and her code against killing is
> basically a "Never Again". The woman has KS: Demonology
> for crying outloud. Why are we assuming she's a pollyanna?

If I remember correctly, The Revered Elder had KS: Demonology as well. It's not necessarily an "evil" skill.

Your theory *is* plausible, it's just this particular leap of assumption I question.

Not saying KS: Demonology = Evil or even formerly Evil.
Just saying KS: Demonology means that her being 'naive' is very UNlikely.

I didn't find the Revered Elder exactly naive either ;)

[Chuckg]

Ah. True, the Revered Elder is pretty much the antithesis of naive.

As to Witchcraft... well, depends on what she's 'naive' /about/.

Naive about the occult, and about the awful and evil things that some people can do with it? Obviously not. Just growing up in the same house with Talisman, much less her parents, kinda precludes that.

Naive about the *rest* of the world? Quite possible.

She could, for example, believe that nothing in the 'mundane' world could possibly be as evil and bad and nasty and selfish and rotten as the horrible things she's seen in the Mystic World... which is, of course, a completely mistaken belief.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Naive about the *rest* of the world? Quite possible.

She could, for example, believe that nothing in the 'mundane' world could possibly be as evil and bad and nasty and selfish and rotten as the horrible things she's seen in the Mystic World... which is, of course, a completely mistaken belief.

That I could buy and good point. It still seems to indicate that there's no real clash with her personality and background, to me anyways ;)

[Chuckg]

I must admit that your possible alternate take on Witchcraft made me actually feel some interest in the character for the first time in... oh, forever.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Isn't that just rehashing the 'Dark Willow' subplot from Buffy?

Nope. It's a pop-psychology take on women who are overly "nice." The DarK Willow plot drew on the same source material.

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hermit
It still seems to indicate that there's no real clash with her personality and background, to me anyways ;)

Maybe so. It's the lines about how "kind-hearted and gentle" the character is, as well as the "rebelling by becoming a nice person" thing that puts me off. You don't grow up watching you parents engaging in ritual torture and murder and emerge as a kind-hearted, gentle, "nice" person. Parents who engage in those practices, assuming that they're somehow sane enough to stay together and raise children at all, are going to have parenting skills that leave their children as complete wrecks at best. Even if she tries to be "nice," she should have only the most superficial understanding of what "nice" is.
Thinking about it, her relationship with her family could explain her atraction to Black Paladin; from her point of view, that's just how men act...

[Hermit]

Originally posted by OddHat
Maybe so. It's the lines about how "kind-hearted and gentle" the character is, as well as the "rebelling by becoming a nice person" thing that puts me off. You don't grow up watching you parents engaging in ritual torture and murder and emerge as a kind-hearted, gentle, "nice" person. Parents who engage in those practices, assuming that they're somehow sane enough to stay together and raise children at all, are going to have parenting skills that leave their children as complete wrecks at best. Even if she tries to be "nice," she should have only the most superficial understanding of what "nice" is.
Thinking about it, her relationship with her family could explain her atraction to Black Paladin; from her point of view, that's just how men act...

Interesting points. Fortunately, she also ran into the Trigimeritus (sp) Council, and we don't know what magical or non magical counseling she got, but we know she stayed with them for "several years". I think they might have helped her deal with the worst of it. The Champions version we see isn't Witchcraft: Year One so I can see her having dealt with some of her issues; though not all.

Your explaination for the comment on Black Paladin could definitely work. It could also explain her attraction for James Harmon. Defender is NOTHING like she's expected from most wealthy and powerful men.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Ah. True, the Revered Elder is pretty much the antithesis of naive.

On second thought, it's just occurred to me that Vincent Dimitrios was as naive as it got. :)

[Southern Cross]

How true-but Vincent's naievety was based on his ability to sense the good in everything,no matter how evil.He'sprobably the only mystic character who would try to redeem Dark Seraph.

[Hermit]

Dark Seraph: "Bow, bow before the might and majesty of the chosen disciple of Krim! Your moon shall bleed, the world will cry out around you in agony most dire, and I am the left hand of Power that shall make it so!"

Vincent Dimitrios, Sorcerer Supreme and Mystic Master: "Who needs a hug?"


:D

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
How true-but Vincent's naievety was based on his ability to sense the good in everything,no matter how evil. [snip]

My own way of phrasing that would be "... in everything -- no matter whether it was actually there or not."

I mean, jeez, I can't see Doctor Strange falling for what Jarth pulled.

[Vondy]

My version of the champions has Solitaire from the ultimate mentalist. My main champions honey. She's also the team leader.

I don't hate witchcraft, she's just not my main champions honey. So I kept her around, too.

I went with defender from the version of HERO that shall not be named (along with team defender). Sue me...

I went with obsidian for the brick.

I went with Saphire for the energy slinger.

I went with an edited harley riding version of seeker for the martial artist.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Hermit

Vincent Dimitrios, Sorcerer Supreme and Mystic Master: "Who needs a hug?"


:D [/B]

I would kill for a copy of his write-up... that guy was truly scary.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man
I would kill for a copy of his write-up... that guy was truly scary. You don't have Mystic Masters?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X
You don't have Mystic Masters?

No... its been gone for many moons.